Player token update seems incomplete

Posting here because this feels like intentional behavior rather than a bug, although I could just be missing something obvious. I tried out the new token drag-and-drop functionality today, and unless I'm missing something, this feels like half a solution.  Don't get me wrong: as a DM this adds a lot of convenience, and I appreciate it.  But as a player it feels incomplete. Problems: 1. The PC can't create a default token for a new sheet given to them as a blank, the DM has to explicitly do this at some point to activate the PCs ability to change the graphics. A new sheet has no default token.  If you drag and drop it to the table top it will use the avatar image on the sheet to create a token on the tabletop even if there's a token graphic set.  The DM has to link a token from the table top to the sheet (which is easier now with the Update Default Token button on the token, but it still requires a DM action). 2. There's no PC equivalent of the Apply Token Defaults button to update the tabletop when they change the artwork for their token. Once a sheet has a default token, the player can update the token graphics, but can't update their token (or tokens) on the desktop, as there's no player equivalent to the Apply Token Defaults button.  They can drag and drop their sheet to the desktop to get the new token with new graphics (but that leaves the old one still there, since players can't delete their token from the desktop). So, am I missing something, or is this how it's intended to work or a bug? Ken P.S. Latest firefox, using standard 5E sheet, no API scripts, cleared cached website date before testing.  Tested on both an established game and a new test game.

Ken S. said: Posting here because this feels like intentional behavior rather than a bug, although I could just be missing something obvious. I tried out the new token drag-and-drop functionality today, and unless I'm missing something, this feels like half a solution.  Don't get me wrong: as a DM this adds a lot of convenience, and I appreciate it.  But as a player it feels incomplete. Problems: 1. The PC can't create a default token for a new sheet given to them as a blank, the DM has to explicitly do this at some point to activate the PCs ability to change the graphics. A new sheet has no default token.  If you drag and drop it to the table top it will use the avatar image on the sheet to create a token on the tabletop even if there's a token graphic set.  The DM has to link a token from the table top to the sheet (which is easier now with the Update Default Token button on the token, but it still requires a DM action). 2. There's no PC equivalent of the Apply Token Defaults button to update the tabletop when they change the artwork for their token. Once a sheet has a default token, the player can update the token graphics, but can't update their token (or tokens) on the desktop, as there's no player equivalent to the Apply Token Defaults button.  They can drag and drop their sheet to the desktop to get the new token with new graphics (but that leaves the old one still there, since players can't delete their token from the desktop). So, am I missing something, or is this how it's intended to work or a bug? Ken P.S. Latest firefox, using standard 5E sheet, no API scripts, cleared cached website date before testing.  Tested on both an established game and a new test game. For problem #1a (not able to create a token), could you provide reproduction steps? I tested this and was unable to find an issue.  For problem #1b (Avatar image) I have posted a response here . For problem #2, I will mention it to the Devs.  See Keith's post. :)

Problem #2 is likely there to protect campaign integrity and leave such decisions in the hands of the gm/creator. Example from my own campaign: I use one commoner character that represents about 100 different tokens, each with their own name and token art. I allow players to control these so they can move them out of the way, briefly play the part of an NPC when they would be otherwise waiting for another player's solo bit to finish or select them to get info, etc. If they had that update button available to them, they could (acting in ignorance) completely destroy the individuation for all 100+ tokens. That's one example. Map pins would be another. Many GMs use map pins, tokens that have information on them that players can select to find out about areas on a city or world map. They require control of these tokens to make them function, but again, the potential for widespread destruction is too great. I strongly advocate for leaving that potentially destructive power in the hands of the GM/Creator only.

I also think that issue 1 can be fixed-improved, and that issue 2 is proper the-way-it-is-now. Your old tokens that "looks like your character used to look" will remain the same. Player can drag-drop a fresh new token, to show the new appearance. That's right. 

Gold said: I also think that issue 1 can be fixed-improved, and that issue 2 is proper the-way-it-is-now. Your old tokens that "looks like your character used to look" will remain the same. Player can drag-drop a fresh new token, to show the new appearance. That's right.  What would you suggest on improving issue 1? 

@ Gauss "For problem #1a (not able to create a token), could you provide reproduction steps? I tested this and was unable to find an issue. " I didn't say they were unable to create a token.  I said they were unable to create a token using their custom artwork until after the DM had created a default token on their sheet (by linking a token on the desktop and then clicking "use selected token" on the caracter sheet). This is the test I did using a game I'd created to reproduce another bug sometime back, this time with a new character sheet specially created for this test. DM: - launch game - create new sheet, assign to player - exit game, log out PC: - log in - rename sheet - edit sheet - add token graphic (drag and drop from player library) - add avatar graphic (drag and drop from player library) - save - drag sheet to desktop result: avatar on desktop (not new graphic) - exit game, log out DM: - log in, launch game - examine sheet result: user-added token graphics appear on sheet - drag sheet to desktop result: avatar on desktop (same result as for player) - edit token created by dragging sheet to desktop result: token shows as linked to sheet, had default (null) settings) - link AC and HP to bubbles result: no values (oops, forgot to set them on sheet) - edit character, add armor (drag and drop from items) and hp - view desktop result: bublles and hp bar now show as desired (token is still avatar, but linkage is working) - Edit token, update default token, save (note: this is the token with the avatar picture) <- update default here is apparently creating the default token result: no change on desktop, default token graphic on sheet overwritten with avatar picture (since that was the token used) - cancel edit, quit and log out PC: - log in, launch game - edit sheet, replace token graphic (avatar picture from last step) with player token graphic art (drag and drop from player library), save result: tokens on desktop not changed - drag sheet to desktop result: token appears, using player-selected art, with bubbles and hit points <- this is the first drag-and-drop after the DM did the update; the default token with player art is used - exit and log out DM: - log in, launch game - edit token, link name, save result: name appears on token edited, not on earlier copies - open token, click Update Default Token, save result: no visible change to token or earlier tokens - open sheet, edit, click Apply Token Defaults result: get popup warning of change, click yes, older tokens updated to match current one - cancel edit, changes persist - exit & log out PC: - log in, launch game - drag character to desktop result: get correct token

@keithcurtis "If they had that update button available to them, they could (acting in ignorance) completely destroy the individuation for all 100+ tokens." That's a good point.  I don't use multi-player owened sheets much, and not for anying critical, so I hadn't considered that workflow.  The "bulk update" is really a shotgun that could do a lot of damage. I'd still like an "update selected token" button for the player.  That's more focused, and less likely to be misused. Another way to fix it would be a DM-controlled setting on the sheet to "Allow players to update token".  Default to on, but if off they couldn't even drag and drop graphics.

@Ken S., confirmed and I have informed the Devs. 

@Ken S., problem 1a should be fixed now, please let us know if it is not. 

Yes, that works!  Thanks, to you and the developers. One thing I did notice, you have to "save changes" after editing the token before Update Default Token will save those changes to the sheet (eg, I added bubble pointers, and hit update, then saved the token changes and dragged the sheet to the desktop and got a token without values in the bubbles.  I went back into my original token (with the saved links), hit Update Default Token, saved out of that, dragged the sheet to the desktop, and got a new token with the values.  Minor nit, easy enough to remember to save. Ken

Ken S. said: Yes, that works!  Thanks, to you and the developers. One thing I did notice, you have to "save changes" after editing the token before Update Default Token will save those changes to the sheet (eg, I added bubble pointers, and hit update, then saved the token changes and dragged the sheet to the desktop and got a token without values in the bubbles.  I went back into my original token (with the saved links), hit Update Default Token, saved out of that, dragged the sheet to the desktop, and got a new token with the values.  Minor nit, easy enough to remember to save. Ken I was not able to reproduce this, could you provide steps to reproduce it?  Based on what you wrote I did the following:  1) edit token Note: Bar 1 and Bar 2 were set to "none" 2) Set Bar 1 Attribute to "hp" 3) Set Bar 2 Attribute to "ac" 4) Clicked on "Update Default Token" 5) closed the Token Settings by hitting Esc (ie: cancel, just to avoid using the save button) 6) Drag a new token from the Journal to the table. Token was correct and with the correct settings. 

Well, dang. I can't reproduce it either.  I must have done something wrong last time because it behaved properly this time. Thanks for trying, Ken

Ken S. said: Well, dang. I can't reproduce it either.  I must have done something wrong last time because it behaved properly this time. Thanks for trying, Ken Ok, if there is a problem again let me know.