Forced to GM rather than Play!

each time i try to join a group, everything starts of great. I get a couple of guidelines, exchange some rpg materials, spend 3 to 5 hrs on character creation, exchange a couple of communication and then, when everything is ready to go .....NOTHING! ....i mean, not a peep, no messages, you just get ignored. this happens every time i apply to join a group and it is the most basic reason why i have been GM'ing the past 6 months. Now my mental bucket is filled to the rim and about to spill with rage. ...is there no common decency anymore, am i the only 'Non-Douche-Nozzle-GM'??? Guess what i'm asking here is this: Try to be a little more considerate to potential new players, especially if you have already asked them to invest a couple of hours of their time to create a character for your game. Its deeply frustrating to invest so much time into something only to get ignored - im sure you can relate if the situation was reverse. ...of course, the same holds true if you are a player, don't just drop out without any word (...cuz i've seen that far too much too), show a little respect. it goes a long way to make everybodies Roll20 experience a pleasant one.

Nice rant...........feel better now?

And what's the deal with architecture? Why do they call it a ‘building?’ It looks like they’re finished. Why isn’t it a ‘built?

thx for your response aaron you are the first to actually admit to be 'one of those!' - it couldn't have been more obvious even if you would've used the actual words.... (Pity!)

Hurm, this post needs to be stickied on all GM forums. I am a GM myself, and I would be ashamed of myself if I ditched my players without saying anything. With that being said, I don't blame the ones that have to give up because their players can't make up their minds or agree on when to meet again. But like you said, Julian, it's both sides that have to commit. I'm sorry you've been shafted by shitty GMs! On a positive note, What do you like to play?

i prefer whitewolf games, but lately i've been trying to get into a pathfinder group.

In my experience it's mostly players, not GMs that do that, but it is true and very frustrating indeed. I don't even get it why people go through the hassle of applying for a campaign, or providing character information already, but then are too lazy to jsut type "Sorry, I am dropping out", which would literally take them only a few seconds.

How I see it (and what I express to the potential players almost every game) is: Hey, let's sit down and hash out the times you're available and a character concept together. This allows me to see a few things about the player (are you knowledgeable, are you an offputting d*ck, and you a generally friendly/funny person, etc). Now obviously that is far from foolproof, but it tends to eliminate some right off the bat, and others after maybe an hour or two. Additionally, just because you hash out a character doesn't necessarily guarantee you a spot - I pitch your sell to the current players in the party (what I think of your personality, if there was anything outstandingly bad, are your times OK but fairly annoying or hard to make for some players but still do-able, and your idea of class and role in the party]). There's a lot of chances to get vetoed there, since I allow each member of my current party full veto rights against anyone joining, and hell you may not even get veteod, it may just be that the party thought a different character concept meshed better, I try to stay out of swaying the party decisions as much as possible. Now, this system causes me to go through potentially dozens of players before we're all happy, but in the end, we're all happy. I've VERY rarely had problems with players in my campaigns (only twice in about 1400 hours on Roll20), and I'm much happier (personally) with a huge up-front investment in time searching than having to bring players into a campaign because someone drops out or there are conflicts.

Julian H., there is a trick to getting into successful games. Now that I said that, I'm not gonna tell you the trick. I'm evil.

Julian H. said: each time i try to join a group, everything starts of great. I get a couple of guidelines, exchange some rpg materials, spend 3 to 5 hrs on character creation, exchange a couple of communication and then, when everything is ready to go .....NOTHING! ....i mean, not a peep, no messages, you just get ignored. Based entirely on the game, you'll find that GMs will have a dearth of players and only a few slots. For my Pathfinder game, I've gone through ~40+ applicants. I've spoken to 15, maybe a few more. I've had to remove one. You know why most GMs don't inform on whether or not you've made it? Because it's a pain to explain to 10-12 other people why they didn't make the cut. Especially when some of them are, as you put it, 'Douche-Nozzle'-Players. You sound largely like a player I -wouldn't- explain this to, because I suspect it would end up being an argument on why you were passed over. That sounds like the opposite of fun, and largely reeks of player entitlement. I don't really owe you (the general you, not you specifically) the explanation. I've spent maybe an hour with you in talks about what you want to play, how you view your style, and what you want out of a game. If I found a problem in there, that's on me and I don't really want to sit through a justification on why I should look past that issue. It's just easier to avoid the inevitable confrontation of the chance that one of those passed over players being the one who will take a shit-fit because they assumed that they were on-board. If you apply for a job, do you expect a callback saying "Hey, no, sorry, we filled the position"? God no. No one gets paid enough to do that. Why should GMs deal with more conflict and drama than necessary? On top of that, I follow the same system as Grady. My players' fun is just as important as mine and the applicant's. Do you really want to hear that the GM, plus two to four other people think you're not up to joining them? I have found more people who, when their character is criticized, freak out, than players who calmly take that they're not the right fit and thank you for their time. Don't have a sense of entitlement. Speaking with a GM for a prolonged period of time does not, in fact, assure acceptance, Don't get attached to a brand new character concept. These are all solid things to keep in mind when joining a game. Acting like this, instead, makes any GMs who have passed you over feel correct in their justification for doing so.

Animus said: I have found more people who, when their character is criticized, freak out, than players who calmly take that they're not the right fit and thank you for their time. Shhhhhhh, stop hinting at the trick. Also, you meant to say thank you for "your" time. Part of the trick is knowing when you're a bad fit for a game. Ooops! I just broke the first rule of fightclub.

Animus said: It's just easier to avoid the inevitable confrontation of the chance that one of those passed over players being the one who will take a shit-fit because they assumed that they were on-board. If you apply for a job, do you expect a callback saying "Hey, no, sorry, we filled the position"? God no. No one gets paid enough to do that. Why should GMs deal with more conflict and drama than necessary? Clearly you never applied for a job in the netherlands. here its customary to tell somebody to continue looking for a job if they didn't make the cut. furthermore, here a boss gets a hefty fine when he promisis a position to someone and then doesn't deliver. i'm not saying that a gm should be fined if he already promised you a slot and then begins to ignore you without any explaination. I wouldn't be caught dead getting somebodies hopes up and than don't deliver, and thats really what this is about - even if it may 'feel' awkward or inconvenient, its still no reason to skip common courtesy, especially if and when primises were made and guarentees were given. When you choose to ignore someone is more to the point for you, i think - do you do it before you politely tell them no (thus not even bothering and showing that person your parents didn't really raise you with any sense of courtesy or etiquette), or do you do it after (showing the world that you are a people person and take responsibility, even if it means you have to go back on a promise). the first time a person tries to dispute your decision - thats still plenty of time to start ignoring him or her, at least you were courteous and are therefor blameless. To some others i merely say - if you think demanding or giving a bit of courtesy/politeness to others is ridiculous or a terrible waste of your time, you really shouldn't validate it by taking a piss at it (thus revealing your own insecurities) - show wisdom, thread SOFTly and just keep your trap shut unless you have something of value to contribute (and by that i fear i already said too much about such sad practices).

furthermore - i accidentally posted this twice on two different forums - and i got responses on both - i invite you to check out the other one too. then you'll know this really is about avoiding inconvenience, not just to me, but to all parties - players and GM's involved. dont be a jackass - if you make a promise - keep it, and if you can't, be open about it so you wont inconvenience anybody else any further than is absolutely necessary - if that illicits a negative reaction thats your que to start ignoring that person, not before (trust me on this - most people tend to be understanding and know the meaning of NO). give people the benefit of the doubt - they often like you a lot better that way (because you help them avoid unnecessary inconvenience)

Julian, you're hilarious. It was the way you asked that made me respond the way I did. If you put in 1/10th the time you spent ranting about how bad things are into looking for a game, you'd already be in a game. There, I revealed the trick. The trick is to be persistent, and not waste your time with things that obviously aren't working out. Also, burning bridges isn't a good thing and chastising the community for your shortcomings is a good way to alienate people. Your original post indicates you are the sort of player 99.9% of GMs don't want. You literally made it too easy for me. There is absolutely no reason for anyone in roll20 to respond to people complaining about their shortcomings. That said, feel free to apply to the GM Academy group and ask a member to run something for you. If you try the same approach there, however, prepare to be eaten alive instead of just ridiculed.

Wow Soft............you're not supposed to actually tell him. You should have let him continue to think the reason he has trouble finding DM's is they're all horrible flakes. Even though in the interview process it was probably revealed he is not........how should I put this........a big people person.

sry SOFT i dont see it - how is requesting and offering consideration ofputting, and if some people really find that offputting the reverse can be said in turn about those people - i really don't want to hang with anybody who doesn't care about another persons comfort or wellbeing (though im not afraid to put myself out there and risk getting hurt, i don't seek it out and I think you are an idiot or at the very least a masochist if you do). maybe i should have placed the paragraphs in a different order. I can see how just the first part sounds like a complaint (and not an unreasonable one at that since i have thus far only spend a promilage of the time i used to search for a group, on discussing this matter with others, most of whom give amicable and usefull responses), So why would you bother to respond to this at all, if you can't even be bothered to read the post in its entirety - cuz only when you do read something in its entirety the true message becomes clear, which in this case is simply - Plz be polite to eachother so you can spare your fellow human being hours of unnecesary effort. - and i really don't see why anybody wouldn't want a person in his group that genuinely feels that way. that being said - i don't care if my community is a small one, if that means that everyone in it is a descent person - in fact i prefer it. To be that person - show that you belong by thinking about others as much as you think about yourself - no man is a mountain.

I'm a GM who's excepting other GMs into game, for allowing me to play theirs.

It's all a rant, complaint, and a pitiable post. Not sure what you wanted from this whole experiment, it honestly seems like a big waste of time and effort just to whine. It's actually the first complaining post I have read on roll20, but I don't want you to think it is in vain. From this point forward I will endeavor to always tell the people who don't join my games it's because I think they would be a horrible addition to the group I am building based on attitude or character concept, though I usually just tell everyone that the roster is full. For instance " You seem like someone I would try my best to avoid playing a long campaign with, based everything you have shown me thus far." Good luck gaming out there though and I hope you find a group you really click with. (also I think "no man is an island" would be a more apt analogy. Get ahold of me if you need anymore Seinfeld jokes maybe they will cheer you up a little)

Julian H. said: each time i try to join a group, everything starts of great. I get a couple of guidelines, exchange some rpg materials, spend 3 to 5 hrs on character creation, exchange a couple of communication and then, when everything is ready to go .....NOTHING! ....i mean, not a peep, no messages, you just get ignored. this happens every time i apply to join a group and it is the most basic reason why i have been GM'ing the past 6 months. Now my mental bucket is filled to the rim and about to spill with rage. ...is there no common decency anymore, am i the only 'Non-Douche-Nozzle-GM'??? You're not the first person, nor the last person who will complain about this. Here's how it comes off to me: I'm a prospector, how dare these rocks not always contain gold! How dare these rocks not accommodate me! Julian H. said: Try to be a little more considerate to potential new players, especially if you have already asked them to invest a couple of hours of their time to create a character for your game. Its deeply frustrating to invest so much time into something only to get ignored - im sure you can relate if the situation was reverse. ...of course, the same holds true if you are a player, don't just drop out without any word (...cuz i've seen that far too much too), show a little respect. it goes a long way to make everybodies Roll20 experience a pleasant one. You do realize you're talking about a community where some of the players and GMs get more satisfaction out of making characters than playing them, right? You're also talking about a community that would rather not tell someone they are a bad fit for something if it's totally obvious. Example: Joe, Frank, and Kyle are all playing base classes and races, but Nancy want to be a special snowflake. Nancy was told this isn't an optimization game, but she still decided to make a super character anyway. The others decide to not inform her why she wasn't selected and instead form another group, effectively making it seem as tho the previous group vanished. Now, the biggest sin you committed was in this second paragraph: "It is deeply frustrating to invest so much time into something only to get ignored." You make it sound like the time was wasted when you know it wasn't. That character that you made can be played in other games. This is why smart people avoid games with heavy house rules and limited selections. You don't lose anything if the game doesn't happen because your character is free to be in other games. This is part of why Pathfinder is the number one game on here. It's fully open source, and most GMs are willing to take it at face value without modifying rules. I have 10 Pathfinder characters ready to go at the drop of a hat, and all can be adjusted for a lower or higher point buy. It takes me 5 minutes to adjust, if I need to adjust at all. Ironically, I don't play Pathfinder anymore partly because they're making it too easy. Julian H. said: Plz be polite to eachother so you can spare your fellow human being hours of unnecesary effort. I've never not taken something away from games that have failed to materialize or died after 1 or 2 games. Usually you can spot the reasons and then avoid future instances of them. You're basically saying that all interaction is unnecessary effort if it doesn't reach a conclusion you find desirable. Please please please don't become a scientist if this is your view. In closing, treat this like a prospector looking for gold. You're gonna have a bunch of crap before you hit paydirt. Don't yell at the rocks for being rocks.

Julian H. said: the first time a person tries to dispute your decision - thats still plenty of time to start ignoring him or her, at least you were courteous and are therefor blameless. No. This is wrong. If I already have the feeling that the player is going to act this way, why, in any situation, would I waste further breath on them. I haven't eaten a significant amount of the applicant's time, but the applicants have eaten a significant amount of my time. It's not a matter of politeness, I'm afraid. I, too, have been ignored by GMs who haven't given me hide nor hair of any indication whether I would be joining their game. You know what? I wasn't annoyed, I wasn't off-put, I didn't even think too much about it. GM doesn't message me after a day or so, chances are, I'm probably not what he's looking for. You're trying to make this into a matter of "Be a better person", but it's not. GMs do not necessarily have the time or need to make an effort to tell you no. You should be able to infer that, and I'm sure their players would much prefer them to be prepared for a session, rather than going through and tracking down everyone who's not made the cut. Stop confusing courtesy for consideration. if a GM speaks with you, they have given you consideration. They didn't have to speak with you at all, but they did. They don't owe you courtesy for the time they spend with you. In general? Stop spending 5 hours with a GM, diligently fleshing out your character. You clearly cannot recognize the tone or mood of the situation. If they don't invite you... you should treat it as though you're not in their game.

I haven't GM'd a game in almost a year Animus, but I did have a canned response to applicants to my game as to their not being selected. It's a simple copy paste and usually my qualifications were simply to show me a character sheet. If a person can make a character sheet with minimal errors, they usually made the cut. That said, this approach isn't very inviting to new players who usually flub their character sheets. That's why even tho I don't play 5e, I respect what it's doing by giving d&d maths a haircut. For any new players I always suggest 5e, even tho it's not free.

geez louise - i really get what you are saying here, you are absolutely right - anybody who can't spare a couple of seconds to be polite or show proper etiquette is essentially a lazy jackass (and thats coming from someone who usually doesn't resort to name-calling) but consider this Julian... those people who behave like that are not going to change on your, or anybodies behest, even if they are aware of it and especially if they are ashamed of it, cuz nobody likes to admit they are wrong. so why bother even trying to change the world of roll20 - its really pointless and i really dont get why you respond to some of the halfbaked reactions you are getting - they are just excuses not to act like human beings (not mentioning any names because that would be rude). With that in mind - if you are GMing a group, count me in. I for one really do apreciate a person who likes to treat the people around him like human beings.

^^ This. Well said raven. For people spending a lot of time playing games largely based on a time of chivalry there are a lot of people (players and gms a like) who don't understand the point or necessity of courteousness.

thx Doittoit/Raven - i almost thought 'i was the only dog that could see the rainbow!' - at least im not the only one who can see beyond the boundry of 'self' - it almost makes my heart flutter!

Raven said: anybody who can't spare a couple of seconds to be polite or show proper etiquette is essentially a lazy jackass Yes, please continue to insult most of the GMs on this site. It's not like they have enough on their plate. Raven said: so why bother even trying to change the world of roll20 Perhaps it's not Roll20 with the problem? I don't know if you're a hipster, but your entire post is super ironic. It tickles the hipster in me at least. Raven said: they are just excuses not to act like human beings It's cool, you can name me. I was using this . Typically human beings can use that without being called animals, which is pretty much what you called me. The OP has valid points, but could also have spent some time researching one of the MANY threads devoted to this topic already (they're in the archives). Or perhaps joined that group I mentioned, where it's always being discussed. Now, on to the point: This is NOT the forum to be posting this sort of thing. GMs look at this forum sometimes to find players and players look at this forum to find games. Roll20 used to have an entire forum for this, but decided to get rid of it because people like Raven and Doittoit inevitably got their feeling hurt by something that was said. As you said, it's easier to ignore if you are wrong, what makes you think it's not something you're doing that's not leading you to games? So some GMs decided to start their own group for it, which I've mentioned. Also you can go rant about it on other sites. However, don't for one second think that ad hominem and red herrings are an excuse for shooting down adults telling you to stop your whining. You can get into plenty of games if you: 1. lower your expectations. 2. apply to more than one game. 3. branch out into different systems. 4. listen to what people are saying and read their rules. 5. don't take offense every time something doesn't go your way. 6. know when you're a bad fit for a group.

The LFG Forum is not a place for these kinds of rants. There was an off-topic forum for a while, until it filled up with rants like these. Then they removed it. I would say that in comparison with the rest of the internet, roll20 is full of remarkably nice people who are 1000% more likely to be rude by accident than by design. Furthermore, no one is forcing you to do anything. You saw an opportunity to do something in what you considered to be a superior way to everyone else doing it. That's great, and it's the kind of thing we should all aspire to emulate. But throwing a fit inappropriately in a public forum does not help you accomplish this.

geez SOFT, sounds to me like you are insulting the Roll20 community by assuming no GM should and would pay anybody else the proper respect (At least thats how i interpret your seemingly 'OMG i feel insulted so i should asume the mantle of the entire community to defend myself' position). just know that if Raven is at all dignifying what you said with any response, i'm likely with him. i happen to be a GM as well as a Player, and i always take the time for anybody in my groups and the groups that i join, and as such i appreciciate the pad on the shoulder i just got from raven a lot more than your presumtuous insulting response. if i have to tell you why... imagine yourself to be cat who still has to learn to piss in the litter box and raven your owner who is rewarding the other cat (Me) for good behaviour. you as the cat that still has to develop proper behavior will simply not understand yet, why the other cat gets rewarded - after all - you both pissed (applying this metafore to your statement - forget about yourself just a little and put yourself in the shoes of another and you'll see its not the fact that you piss, but where you piss, that earns either the reward or punishment)

Thx julian, you hit the nail on the head. i normally don't respond to such pety responses as SOFT just posted, but hello! can you please take something for its face value - a pad on the back. if you want one soft, be remarkable, like Julian. Doing something negative only gets you wet (using julians metafore, which i liked very much btw). as for Billy, ...people used to stick their necks out for oneanother, the kind of behavior you now only see in hollywood flicks. this has almost dissappeared in the very short span of a decade, so in Julians defense, i can see why he would be concerned enough to post this 'Rant'. Point of Fact, if it wasn't for people like him people probably wouldn't even remember what 'good manners' are. "...And let this be the last time i pull you kids apart!" ;P

Your analogy: Cat pee. My analogies: Mining for gold because a good game is like gold Fight Club because I was in on a secret: Mainly that you need consider it might be something you're doing that is causing a bad result for you. Result: Learn to use better analogies. Also, sign up for the GM Academy. They'll stroke your ego if you put things plainly instead of trying to spruce up your point. You're not the first person to think the system is stacked against them, nor will you be the last. Also, little secret, some of the better GMs announce their games in that group first. Julian H. said: geez SOFT, sounds to me like you are insulting the Roll20 community by assuming no GM should and would pay anybody else the proper respect Then I guess I insulted myself, since I already stated I used to contact all my applicants. That said, it shouldn't be required nor expected. I don't get so dejected when I don't hear back that I run to the nearest forum to shout "I'm Angry!" Why is that? Could it be that I understand the way things work, or could it be that I just don't care? I've been in plenty of games where we were all set up to go and the GM flaked. I'd much rather have that then be 2-3 games in and the GM decides healing no longer works. (which is a CONSISTENT THEME on Roll20) Luckily, I know those are a bad fit for me, so I usually take my leave.

Soft said: what makes you think it's not something you're doing that's not leading you to games? I understand what you are saying in a literal sense - im just trying to wrap my head around the fact that somebody is telling me that being a rude MF is actually preferable to being a mild-mannered gentleman. If i said anything about what i do to get into groups its 'being a perfect gentlemen' so if you didn't get that, plz give me a constructive and objective argument why (...and where) you think i said anything else (and plz use the entire paragraph so you wont pull what is being said out of context and thus changing its meaning or interpretation)

...plz julian, don't encourage him - he is clearly a product of this generation and not mature enough to understand the benefits of proper etiquette - if he would he wouldn't be talking like this. im sure your generation also suffered before they had to learn a valuable lesson. at least i see dignity in your responses - they are a plea for change that may eventually benefit everybody, as opposed to his responses which clearly only orbit around his own ego (just my interpretation), and at the end of the day Ego really isn't all that relevant when you have the ability to let go and accept whats right in front of you - so breathe, let go, and leave Soft to stew in his own juices ...and SOFT i really hope you wont behave that way to someone who is trying to help the needy right next to you, when no further response of you is required or asked for. take a step back and look at what you just did here (actually trying to make the genuine concerns of one human being towards another moot - shame on you, you loathsome being! - yes i'm the guy that does that for another human being - i'm that guy in that ridiculously antiquated black suit with a little white square in front of his adamsapple, so to say. ...its my job to console people)

Will everyone not interested in seeing this kind of endless argument please flag this so the moderators can end it?

Julian H. said: Soft said: what makes you think it's not something you're doing that's not leading you to games? I understand what you are saying in a literal sense Good, that's a start. It's actually how you're saying stuff that is leading you to problems. Imagine if I applied to your game and was debating you like I am here? Would you accept me? Probably not. Now, imagine part of your problem is actually that you are a GM trying to become a player. You talk like a GM, and other, newer GMs are taken aback. This is why when I apply to games I try to be dry about it and ask a few system questions. This shows I know the system. If the GM responds back, it's a good bet there's going to at least be one game. Now, am I accepted? Nope. Next step is to present a decent character or concept within the rules and not hide what my characters are capable of. I like to join high powered games, so that's my minimum for "will I be a good fit" It helps if your TOON isn't a special snowflake, that's why I usually play humans. If the GM wants to talk to me on skype, I'll talk to him/her. Explain you know the system, but will default to "rule zero" if it's reasonable. Most GMs just want some sort of compliance and recognition that it is their game. Now, usually you will be accepted. The next step is to chat with the other players to try to get a feel for what is within the group's rules. I hate hate hate pvp for example, so I usually shy away from players who seem intent on it. I also dislike evil, but am willing to have my good characters "play dumb" so others might be evil. Once you've gotten this far, usually it helps to find who's gonna lead the group. One player calling the shots on the little things allows the party to focus on other issues. I'm gonna tell you right now, as a GM, that's gonna be you. Now, enjoy your game(s). Anyway, I won't be responding to any more ad hominems attacking me instead of my points. I've already been called an animal.

This thread is off-topic for our site. We only permit discussion that is specific to Roll20 (which you can read about in our Code of Conduct ). Since this is a general RPG discussion, you'd be better served posting it on a general RPG site, like reddit.com/r/rpg.