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Help making maps

When I make a map, its normally just me throwing a bunch of objects haphazardly into a room and calling it a day. And it shows. But I have no idea how to make them look more natural. I know I am supposed to build it around the monsters, but that doesn't seem to be enough. For instance I just made a map with a couple elder blood thorns within a large bramble patch, they rest in the brambles and whip out their vines and drag the party members in and suck their blood while stirges and regular bloodthorn minions pummel whomever is trapped for extra damage. So I made the two bramble patches, put the blood thorns inside and for the rest of the empty space just randomly filled it with trees and brambles. But it just doesn't work. Even the patches themselves look wrong somehow. Look. What am I doing wrong thats causing my maps to look so ugly?
My two cents' worth... What you have here is a good start, but what's missing is that 'natural' feel. It looks like a map someone made; you want it to look more like a picture of reality. What I might to do improve things: Start by laying down a background layer. Something simple like a grasslands tile might work, to give it a feel of 'being somewhere'. Something like this, perhaps: Grassland This is just the first one I saw in the marketplace; there are lots more where that came from. This will transform your map from looking like 'stuff on a grid' to 'stuff in a field', which is at least somewhat better. You might also use something with some trees and such already in place, like this: Forest Again, just a randomly selected background, only this time with some trees and a path running through them. To make it look 'brambly', insert your bramble bushes wherever it looks right to you, more or less how you've done above. Next, you'd want your patches to look less 'squared off'. Of the two large patches you have, the upper one isn't bad, but the lower one has a distinct right angle in it, something you almost never see in nature. To fix that, I might place a few more copies of that piece, overlapping one another, in various configurations; this would help round out the straight lines, and make it look more natural. Also, more variety; there are lots and lots of trees in the Marketplace, and literally thousands (Millions? More??) can be found by searching other sites. The more variety you have, the less likely you are to notice a repeat, and it's that repetition that makes it look unreal. Changing the alignment helps, but subconsciously it still looks 'off'; variety helps off-set that feeling. Oh, and try varying the size, shape, alignment, and positioning of your items a little more. Make some trees bigger than others, instead of all the same size. Clump a few up here... spread them out a bit more over there... have a few of type a with several type b, then a few of b with a bunch of a... and so on. Finally, blending the pieces together to look more... well, natural. I can see just by glancing that there are some parts that are distinctly different than the others, and therefore probably dangerous to my character. The names don't help much either! (Then again, it's possible only the GM sees those, so I'll let that slide, heh.) I see a few places where you 'hid' them in amongst the other brambles; that's good. Maybe try moving them 'behind' the other items, to make them a little harder to see. Map-making is much more an art than a science... the way to get better at it is to practice! You've got a good start, and I doubt anybody would complain playing on what you've got. But keep working at it, try new things, and don't worry if it's not perfect. The next one will be better, and the one after that better still! Hope that helps! -Phnord
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Edited 1429546496
The Aaron
Pro
API Scripter
Since you're a mentor, you might find my MapLock script helpful. Discussion here: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1660748/script-maplock-provides-individual-graphic-locking-as-well-as-highlighting#post-1840229" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1660748/script-maplock-provides-individual-graphic-locking-as-well-as-highlighting#post-1840229</a>
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Edited 1429567198
@ Phnord thank you. I'll try to use your suggestion as a checklist. @The Aaron, that might actually fix the reason i don't use background images. Lock down the back ground o I can actually move the objects on the background around. Assuming I can ever get the API to work for me...
If you want I can temporary join your game and help you make some maps/give you some pointers?
No thanks. I need to develop a method for map making myself.
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Edited 1429661511
Here is my redo of it following your advice. I put down a premade 'tree cluster' there is the south. But a snowing background instead of plain white. Rounded off the clusters, put a third cluster that wasn't filled with any bloodthorns and switched out 2/3rds of the trees with 2 other tree types. Only thing I couldn't do was turn the pieces around. Is there a hot key to easily do that? Oh and I couldn't get map lock to work, but I decided to just shunt the background to the gm layer until I was done with the rest of the objects.
Devlin M. said: No thanks. I need to develop a method for map making myself. No worries, I can understand that. I have my own method as well. I can guide you on how to make some really nice looking maps. However if you want to do it on your own, that's understandable, just trying to help out my fellow dms ^_^. Here are some pictures to show what I'm talking about: Here is an older one I made, its a tower one where they had to climb or scale down it. Here is another old one, its some multilevel ruins. Here is a nice outside one, that has a cliffside. I've been working with a friend to make some for his game, here is a stonehedge where we are trying to add in some dynamic lighting to it.
Devlin M: Excellent! See how much better it looks already? Your next will look even better, and the one after that better still. Keep practicing, that's how you become an ar-teest! Meldebious(Casey) Nice work, too! The one with the ruins looks like something straight out of a video game! (Which, ok, I suppose it is, but you know what I mean!) Here's a sample of something I made myself, using only pieces from the free art search tool on Roll20: Here's how you turn pieces around. Actually, here's a couple ways to turn pieces around. The first is by using the "Rotate Dongle"; click on a token and it pops up, allowing you to drag-and-rotate, as well as resize, the image: If you want to rotate it just a small amount, you can hold ALT while you do so and it will not 'snap to grid'. (The same thing goes for enlarging/shrinking.) Another way is by right-clicking on the image, then selecting "Advanced" followed by "Flip (horizontal and/or vertical": OH... and finally, there are lots of map-making programs available. Some of them are quite powerful, with lots and lots of options. This is (a portion of) one I made over a decade ago, which I'm still using in my primary campaign: So, like I say, keep mapping! -Phnord
1429683797
The Aaron
Pro
API Scripter
Speaking of rotating, I have this script for that... <a href="https://github.com/shdwjk/Roll20API/blob/master/Ra" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/shdwjk/Roll20API/blob/master/Ra</a>... Select a bunch of stuff, type !random-rotate , and they all have different rotations. Fast way to turn an array of trees into a more natural seeming distribution. =D
1429693795
Ziechael
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
API Scripter
The Aaron said: Speaking of rotating, I have this script for that... <a href="https://github.com/shdwjk/Roll20API/blob/master/Ra" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/shdwjk/Roll20API/blob/master/Ra</a>... Select a bunch of stuff, type !random-rotate , and they all have different rotations. Fast way to turn an array of trees into a more natural seeming distribution. =D Ah man, c'mon... now i gotta have that one as well! How have i gone this far without it...
Ya know, The AAron... At this point, you could pop into a thread and tell us that you've written a script where the player clicks a button, and it calculates pi to the 10,000th digit, translates it into Atlantean, which it then uses to build a map of any given segment of the surface of the planet Mars, and populates it with a random variety of groundhogs, each of which has its own personality, and I wouldn't be at all surprised. -Phnord the non-programmer
1429712597
The Aaron
Pro
API Scripter
BAH... ...everyone knows that only the honey badgers on mars have their own personality... =D
I think "I have this script for that..." is Aaron's official catch phrase. Also as others have said you can use the sticky out handle to rotate an image and hold "alt" to rotate in smaller increments. You can also select a token, hold E and use the mousewheel to rotate the token (or Alt+E to rotate it in small increments).
Cool. Very helpful. Thanks everyone! :)