3D Dice

First off the new 3D dice are awesome, great work. The coloring on the dice numbers is always black. If you have a dark color associated to your profile the dice become illegible. The D6 seems to be having lots of trouble settling. It will come to a stop away from other dice and then vibrate violently for several seconds before quieting and being read.

1346237326

KS Backer

We know about the numbering issue and are looking into options. The problem is the player color coding works by dynamically tinting the the white part of the texture to the color. If we try to do a white number it gets tinted the same color. We're playing with different options for texturing the dice but it gets more and more complex. How many D6s are you rolling when you see the settling issues?

1346237449

Dougnostic

Had the same issue on my 3rd attempt with the d6. It didn't settle at all on mine (at least after about 20 seconds) so I just closed out since I was just logging in to test. Don't get me wrong, I love this feature but the two issues listed above could cause some issues.

1346238066

KS Backer

Can you please share the dice roll you did where you saw problems? Was it just "/r d6" or was is something with more dice/complex/etc?

1346241606

Stephen Koontz

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I was rolling 4d6 but I can replicate it happening every time when I roll more dice. For example "/r 20d6!!k1" OS Type Microsoft OS Version Windows 7 Browser Type Chrome IP Address 75.82.73.104 Javascript Enabled Yes Cookies Enabled Yes Color Depth 32 Screen Resolution 1920 x 1080 Browser Window Size 1920 x 955 Flash Version 11.3.31 User Agent Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/21.0.1180.83 Safari/537.1

1346241940

KS Backer

So we know there are issues with any dice command that rolls additional dice (explode, compound, reroll). As for the 4d6, we'll continue to do more testing with it. There are a lot of options to tweak with the physics simulation to make sure things come to rest at a reasonable rate.

1346253271

Ian McKie

Suggestion for fixing the dice color issue, which may or may not be possible: Make the number show up in the negative color of the dice. ie: Blue dice would have yellow numbers, white would have black, vice versa, and some other stuff that I don't know the colors for. That way, the number would always contrast the color enough to be visible.

1346254085

KS Backer

Suggestion for fixing the dice color issue, which may or may not be possible: Make the number show up in the negative color of the dice. ie: Blue dice would have yellow numbers, white would have black, vice versa, and some other stuff that I don't know the colors for. That way, the number would always contrast the color enough to be visible. Our resident 3d modeler will be replying later with all sorts of technical stuff that I don't get as to why getting contrasting numbers is actually a significant amount of work with layering textures, lighting, and other stuff I generally consider to be magic. (goes back to writing code)

1346255645

Henry L.

KS Backer

Make the number show up in the negative color of the dice. ie: And medium gray dice would have medium gray numbers. Oops ;) BTW: <a href="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/407793/programmatically-choose-high-contrast-colors" rel="nofollow">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/407793/programmatically-choose-high-contrast-colors</a>

1346259404

Ken R

Here's just a question, rather than a problem: Does only the GM see /gmroll 1d20 with 3D dice? I as the player rolling see it, but do the other players?

1346260814

Riley D.

Roll20 Team

Yes /gmroll is only visible by GM and the player who rolled it, just like the text chat version of it.

1346268841

Gid

Roll20 Team

Suggestion for fixing the dice color issue, which may or may not be possible: Make the number show up in the negative color of the dice. ie: Blue dice would have yellow numbers, white would have black, vice versa, and some other stuff that I don't know the colors for. That way, the number would always contrast the color enough to be visible. Our resident 3d modeler will be replying later with all sorts of technical stuff that I don't get as to why getting contrasting numbers is actually a significant amount of work with layering textures, lighting, and other stuff I generally consider to be magic. (goes back to writing code) Okay. So here's the skinny on how the dice currently work. Basically each die face has an individual black on white numbered PNG image for each side. Presently, we do a procedural tint over the texture to match the user's chosen color. As you've noticed, this isn't an ideal solution for darker tinted dice. The black numbers get obscured. A dynamically colored die with the numbering always inverted would require multiple levels of processes. We already have a procedural to control tinting of a die right now. If we wanted the lettering to have dynamic tinting too, we essentially would have to start with two PNG files per face - one for the number and another for the base. Then we'd need a procedural to tint the base. Then we'd need to calculate the inverse of the base tint. Then we'd need to tint the number that inverse value. THEN we'd need to create a new temporary texture of those two PNGs layered atop one another and flattened. Then we'd need to apply that new temporary texture to the die face. Repeat this process for all faces of a die. This entire routine would have to happen all over again with each new roll. The way it's done now, it just has to process a tint. The latter example requires a TON of extra processes to be done anytime you roll the bones. It'll be more demanding on your browser and your processor to render the roll because of all that needs to happen in the background. You gotta keep in mind that this all happens within the confines of an internet browser. Right now, we're deliberating on whether people should have the ability to create custom dice textures in much the same way people can create custom card decks. If people can make or buy a dice texture pack of their choosing, it makes the whole number tinting problem go away. I'm glad that the 3D dice are going over so well! Please keep the critiques and suggestions coming!

1346280214

Tommy R.

KS Backer

No percentage dice? When I roll 1d100, why not just show 2 10's in percentage style?

1346282681

Ellmo

Pro

I suggested this in the 3D dice thread below this one as well Tommy

1346283137

KS Backer

As easy as d% may seem there are some tricky aspects to it. The 3d dice are an actual full physical simulation. Determining what the results are is done by ray-tracing off the die faces to match up with textures. We could probably do d% support fairly easily as long as you are OK only rolling those 2d10 and nothing else. If you start adding other dice or multiple pairs of d% we have to then figure out some way to keep track of which pair of d10s are associated with each other. In short, we're thinking about it but there isn't a straight forward solution.

1346284596

Tommy R.

KS Backer

I would be fine with just one set of 2d10 with showing the double digit number/

1346318086

Marko K.

As easy as d% may seem there are some tricky aspects to it. The 3d dice are an actual full physical simulation. Determining what the results are is done by ray-tracing off the die faces to match up with textures. We could probably do d% support fairly easily as long as you are OK only rolling those 2d10 and nothing else. If you start adding other dice or multiple pairs of d% we have to then figure out some way to keep track of which pair of d10s are associated with each other. In short, we're thinking about it but there isn't a straight forward solution. Really? I thought it to be just a neat graphical presentation. Wow. That seems complex for such a feature.

1346326735

KS Backer

So on some level it is actually simpler. We use a 3rd party physics simulation create some 3d dice models and thrown them into the simulator with random spin/speed/angle. Using a simple RNG under the hood and then getting the graphical presentation that doesn't look fake is actually more complex as you would need to start at the end state (dice rolled) play it backward with something that looks like real physics and then replay that whole sequence to the user. Our brains are really good at modeling the real world and it doesn't take much to be off in a physics simulation for it to look wrong/weird/broken. So yeah, it is a complex approach but really its the simplest of many even more complex approaches to have dice roll and "feel" like they are actually being rolled.

1346341325

I'm running roll20 on a very old PC. Up till now ive seen poor performance when using large maps, but that was easily rectified. If if enable the 3d dice the performance becomes terrible. Ive attached a screen print from task manager. Each spike in CPU equated to a dice roll and the spikes are considerable.

1346343578

KS Backer

I'm running roll20 on a very old PC. Up till now ive seen poor performance when using large maps, but that was easily rectified. If if enable the 3d dice the performance becomes terrible. Ive attached a screen print from task manager. Each spike in CPU equated to a dice roll and the spikes are considerable. That is to be expected. The 3d dice are using WebGL which is essentially running a game engine style 3D overlay on the roll20 desktop. The feature requires a more powerful computer and graphics card to use.

1346343942

Hmmm, Fantasy Grounds doesn't cause these sort of slowdowns and the 3d dice interface is superior to the one in roll20. Maybe WebGL isn't the best choice. The ability to simulate 3d dice shouldn't bring my PC to a grinding halt, no matter how old.

1346344426

KS Backer

Fantasy Grounds also isn't run in a webrowser and is a Windows Only piece of desktop software. Not trying to be harsh but if you honestly have a cross-platform (Windows, OSX, Linux, iOS, Android) way to do 3d rendering in a web browser other than WebGL we are all ears :)

1346348880

Not harsh at all, I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge. I'm aware your restricted to whatever tools are available, it's just a shame there's nothing better for performing the task. I work in IT, but not on the programming side. I repeatedly see poorly performing applications because no forethought has been put into the decisions on the tools used to generate code, or the use of functions that make the programmers life easier, but have a higher CPU overhead. I was hoping that this might be partly the cause with this, but if the development team say's it's not I again have to bow to their greater knowledge.

1346356819

Riley D.

Roll20 Team

Not harsh at all, I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge. I'm aware your restricted to whatever tools are available, it's just a shame there's nothing better for performing the task. I work in IT, but not on the programming side. I repeatedly see poorly performing applications because no forethought has been put into the decisions on the tools used to generate code, or the use of functions that make the programmers life easier, but have a higher CPU overhead. I was hoping that this might be partly the cause with this, but if the development team say's it's not I again have to bow to their greater knowledge. We appreciate the well-measured response. Honestly, WebGL should be hardware-rendered on most "recent" PCs, most of the CPU usage your seeing is probably because your graphics card isn't supported by your browser, so it's having to use a software renderer or something. In Chrome, you can check this by typing in your URL bar: chrome://gpu/ Next to WebGL, it should hopefully say "Hardware Accelerated."

1346482870

Your right, it's having to use software rendering. Guess I need to see if there a graphics card that does what I need and will work with my system :-(. That or i'll just stick with keeping the 3d dice dis-enabled.

1346504855

I've made sure all drivers etc are now up to date for my graphics card. These updates have certainly helped with the problem. The dice are now usable but still ramping CPU usage up to about 70%. I understand that ultimately my rather old set-up is the issue here, but thought I'd post the update as it may help others with an older PC. I'm guessing I may not be the only one who cant justify shelling out a lot of money just to be able to use a VTT.

1346537591

KS Backer

The updates are appreciated. I'm sure you're not the only one on older hardware and tips to make the 3d dice work better are always appreciated. As is the testing and information you provide :)

1346565479

Riley D.

Roll20 Team

I'm guessing I may not be the only one who cant justify shelling out a lot of money just to be able to use a VTT. Just wanted to point out that this is exactly why the 3D Dice (and features like it) will always be optional and non-required. I can't help that it takes some horsepower to render a 3D physics simulation (although, as Eric said, we can always try to optimize further). And there will inevitably be features in the future that also require a more modern computer to handle the processing required. But we'll strive to make sure that those features are completely optional so that if you do have an older computer, you can still use Roll20 just fine.

1346578960

Thanks for your feedback and for roll20 in general.

1346788266

Axel Castilla

KS Backer

I noticed a very slight loose end with the dice: if I select transparent color for them (*), they are displayed (Chrome last version) in the screen as black cubes with indistinguishable numbers and faces. Of course it's not important on the user's side -just pick a sensible color-, but maybe it can be useful data for the developers, especially concerning future tweaking in the dice code. (*) I know, that makes no sense unless you want "crystal dice" or something like that, but I wanted to test it.

1346789021

Ade S.

Plus

My laptop is around 3 years old so I wouldn't consider it ancient, but the 3d dice do roll slowly on it. Not a moan, just a heads up. I'm sure if more can be done to eliminate this you'll do it :)

1352889266

Stephen Koontz

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