(Pathfinder) Thoughts and feedback on possible house rules for new upcoming campaign

I know what my current players opinions are on this (surveys) however I wanted to know the thoughts of the Roll20 community if they were presented a game with similar house rules. What I am asking for from the community are opinions on the following rules, these opinions may include rough overall thoughts, what would be a "deal breaker" for play, what is liked or disliked, concerns not addressed from the proposed rules, etc. Setting:  Custom world that is compatible with all Pathfinder setting material. Foundation Rules:  Pathfinder Society with less restrictions on Race, more races are allowed but customizing additional races is not allowed. Incorporating rules from Beginners Box set to promote faster combat and alleviate Pathfinder rule gray areas that can cause additional delays. Feats and class abilities altered by this (example AoO) will be replaced with either similar equivalent ability or feats or granted bonus feat. Classes Cleric and Wizard are not available (due to setting and story for campaign, not available to NPCs as well as players). All other classes are per RAW with exceptions due to any changes made from the previous two rule concepts. Thank you for reading!

As long as you are able to make it interesting, I don't think these limitations would matter (at least to me). If offered this, without any other information, I would assume we'd just be doing a bit more roleplaying. As long as the setting really sells it, I wouldn't call it a deal breaker.

I ask because, in my experience, there has been quite a few Pathfinder players who like to treat PF as a tactical table top mini game with role playing elements on the side. No two players are the same which is why I am posting this to see if these rules will cause issues to others as I plan to open it to the public during the first story arc (first 5-7 levels).  However someone may have had experience with some of these combinations and may provide insight to the pros and cons of these rules when combined.  Thanks for the reply, looking forward to other community ideas and opinions on the topic.

The only problem I can see arising is that due to the removal of the cleric class you have taken away one of the greatest sources of healing the party has. Now granted I do not know all the PF classes off the top of my head so there may be a suitable substitute in which case never mind, however if there isn't then your players are in for an incredibly tough time during combat which will force them to have to treat it as a tactical table top game in order to survive.

Other classes can provide healing if needed such as bard, witch, etc. However this is easier remedied by adding healing potions and scrolls found in loot hordes (useful for those games where there is no healing class at all being played). But still a valid point and concern. The other I see now from a different perspective on your point is that due to lack of wizards and Pathfinder Society rules means crafting out as well by default. The only remedy to this would be to allow crafting only in between adventures (when Job checks would be made).. Thanks for the reply. 

>Setting:  >Custom world that is compatible with all Pathfinder setting material. Always a good start. >Foundation Rules:  >Pathfinder Society with less restrictions on Race, more races are allowed but customizing additional races is not allowed. Depends on which races you're allowing and which ones you aren't.  The point-rating system both for building and for rating the existing non-core races is... not that good in my opinion.  Either way, once you start putting in tieflings and aasimar and most of the elemental races you start running into balance issues in my experience. >Incorporating rules from Beginners Box set to promote faster combat and alleviate Pathfinder rule gray areas that can cause additional delays. >Feats and class abilities altered by this (example AoO) will be replaced with either similar equivalent ability or feats or granted bonus feat. I don't know these rules so I can't speak to them specifically, but later on you said: "I ask because, in my experience, there has been quite a few Pathfinder players who like to treat PF as a tactical table top mini game with role playing elements on the side."  And I think that's kind of an unfair dichotomy.  Some players treat it that way, some players are there mostly to RP and don't really understand combat beyond "I'm gonna go hit that guy with my sword."  Some players, like myself, RP heavily but also enjoy the tactical element of it.  In addition, the tactical element makes up 50-75% of what the melee classes actually DO during fights, especially at later levels.  If you take out AoOs and combat maneuvers to "streamline" stuff, then you've still got spellcasters with all the flexibility of the Power Cosmic at the fingertips, and all the Fighters, Rangers, Rogues and Monks get to do most of the time is roll d20's on their turn to see whether they did anything. >Classes Cleric and Wizard are not available (due to setting and story for campaign, not available to NPCs as well as players). All other >classes are per RAW with exceptions due to any changes made from the previous two rule concepts. You already batted this back and forth as far as healing goes, so that's covered.  If you're all about the streamlining thing, then this honestly probably isn't a bad idea.  Wizards and Clerics are the two most flexible casters, so if you take them out in addition to a lot of the combat mechanics then that probably will make the melees feel less useless/constricted, and you're streamlining it for casting since anybody who's ever played a Vancian caster with a lot of slots knows the joy of spending an hour figuring out what your spell list for today is going to be.   >The other I see now from a different perspective on your point is that due to lack of wizards and Pathfinder Society rules means crafting out as >well by default. The only remedy to this would be to allow crafting only in between adventures Eh, that depends a lot on what you're planning for your game how big of a deal it is.  If you're trying to streamline the game anyway, you might not want to bring in the complexity that sometimes comes with crafting, and unless you're going to be giving your characters breaks of 15-60 days between adventures, magic/rare mat crafting is pretty much impossible at later levels anyway.

The Beginners Box set in a nutshell. First, there is are no rule differences for most of the mechanics found in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, just less of these rules. That said the more important changes are as follows: Races Only Dwarf, Elf, and Human Classes No favored classes or bonuses. Armor proficiences are class features either your class can use a certain armor or it cannot. Cleric – Does not focus and discuss Domains, as they are still there, but are no longer a primary focus of the class and are automatically chosen based upon your chosen patron. Fighter – Has some feats automatically gained (Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) Rogue – Smaller section of Rogue Talents Wizard – Less Schools to choose from (Universalist, Evocation, Illusion), no Bonus feat at Level 5 Skills Less Skills to choose from, Appraise, Craft, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Engineering, Nobility, and Planes), Linguistics, Perform, Slight of Hand, Survival, and Use Magic Device have all been removed. No Taking 10 No Taking 20 Feats A lot less to chose from. Equipment No maximum Dex bonus No armor check penalty No arcane spell failure chance Combat No Attack of Opportunities No Charging on Surprise No Combat Maneuvers or Combat Defense No Concentration checks to cast spells, you cannot cast spells when you are next to an enemy unless it is a touch attack spell. Ranged attacks can only be made if you are 10 or more feet from the nearest enemy. Other No Ability Damage, abilities or spells that cause this effect have been removed. No Level Drain, abilities or spells that cause this effect have been removed. Poisons mostly give sickened condition Now most of these would be used, however the races would not be limited for example by this or by Pathfinder Society. The additional races are all selectable with the exception of races as you mentioned that you would not be able to pick alternate abilities etc (no rating system adjusting basically) as this does lead to power gaming, min/maxing,etc. Not normally an issue but sometimes there is that one player who makes a super character that makes all the other players feel like a fifth wheel and thus do not have fun. That is what is trying to be avoided in all honesty and PFS does this job very well.  As for the Beginner Box, I have tried removing various PF core aspects to see if the game still "runs". Removing AoO did not cripple a fighter or rogue as they are able to move into position easier and to targets safely without having to 5 foot or rely on party member magic to get them into position safely during a combat. I am curious as to what other players would think if they saw these rules and as you pointed out possible flaws in including these rules.  The removed classes is not for stream line, it is all due to story and setting for the campaign with those specific classes. Sorcerers, oracles, etc all work normally.  The item creation was another part of the system that PFS removed for many reasons, mainly from what I have seen balance and fairness. The minimum "down time" in between adventures would be 28 days. This is to allow players time to do in character actions they normally cannot do in a dungeon complex such as visiting the inn they purchased, taking care of NPC family members, etc. This can be used for item creation outside of game but the balance issue remains. My thoughts were how would players think about a game that used PFS item creation rules? Didn't think I was coming off as battling the healing from the other poster, just offering solutions as I have seen this as a potential issue with cutting the class as it has been faced with groups that have played with no healer class at all. Do apologize to the other poster if I came off wrong in my reply.  Thank you for your response and detailed points on the potential house rules.

Without Wizards or clerics, you're severely lacking in versatility.  Wizards don't just nuke stuff, they also provide valuable insight, crowd effects, and utility.  Clerics don't just offer healing, they offer a morality, personality, and utility that no other class can bring.  I'm assuming by eliminating these classes, you're also eliminating sorcs, magus, summoner, witch, paladin, oracle, druid, and ranger spells, right?   Magic is really the lifeblood of dungeons and dragons / Pathfinder.  Melee combat is balanced out to keep magic in mind.  Otherwise your 150 hitpoint level 10 fighter is going to deal 20 points of damage a round, and combat is going to get really, really out of proportion. If you want a speedy combat, learn the combat rules.  Combat is very quick when you don't allow summoned companions and your players know exactly what they're rolling when they roll it.  I can run a 5 monster battle scenario in fifteen minutes with a decent party.  5 minutes with a very skilled group.  10 seconds with a group of initiative mages. Sounds like combat above is super vanilla and I think that's a very bad thing.  "On my round I'm going to stand still and stab this guy, because that's all I can do."   Really, my feedback is that I wouldn't play this.  Not because it doesn't seem interesting in concept, but it really seems like combat is super vanilla. If you want faster combat, eliminate summoners and witches from play, allow all other classes and abilities, and stick with core races / no archetypes.  And make sure your players know what they're rolling and what their characters can do, and make sure you yourself know the rules as well.  Ignorance of the rule book is not a good reason to throw it out.  A good GM when asked "if I do this, what am I rolling" can give them an educated guess roll, a great GM knows that because they don't have the feat, they take a negative 4 and provoke an attack of opportunity. Also, macros are Roll20's gift to the people to make things faster. My two cents.

With your last post I would say find new simpler non combat oriented RPG system. Being a GM myself and liking to play with and tweak rules so they fit the campaign I am after, I would still say with all that you are using the wrong system. Pathfinder is a tabletop RPG that is meant to have high level tactics used in its combat(my opinion based on the rules). If thats not for you that is fine,For  but what try to make this system something it is not. For me with the above rule changes and the Label Pathfinder it would be a deal breaker.   You may want to check out Savage Worlds. 

I just have to ask what is the goal of these non campaign rules are?   David D. said: The Beginners Box set in a nutshell. First, there is are no rule differences for most of the mechanics found in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, just less of these rules. That said the more important changes are as follows: These rules would be fine for anyone that has never played a d20 game but probably too basic for most peoples taste here.  Alot of people enjoy creating unique characters and this imo takes the fun out of that.  Now most of these would be used, however the races would not be limited for example by this or by Pathfinder Society. The additional races are all selectable with the exception of races as you mentioned that you would not be able to pick alternate abilities etc (no rating system adjusting basically) as this does lead to power gaming, min/maxing,etc. Not normally an issue but sometimes there is that one player who makes a super character that makes all the other players feel like a fifth wheel and thus do not have fun. That is what is trying to be avoided in all honesty and PFS does this job very well.  PFS rules are very good and some of things they make illegal are worth noting but you need to remember what PFS is for.  PFS is for any make of characters so while it does try to balance them, it has to do through buffs and debuffs to the classes instead tailoring an encounter so that everyone can shine (or at least different people can), which you can do as a DM. As for the Beginner Box, I have tried removing various PF core aspects to see if the game still "runs". Removing AoO did not cripple a fighter or rogue as they are able to move into position easier and to targets safely without having to 5 foot or rely on party member magic to get them into position safely during a combat. I am curious as to what other players would think if they saw these rules and as you pointed out possible flaws in including these rules.  Sure removing AoO makes combat simpler but it also makes reach based character pointless and makes caster superheroes. The removed classes is not for stream line, it is all due to story and setting for the campaign with those specific classes. Sorcerers, oracles, etc all work normally.  No issue, though if I was a player I would want to find out why in or out of the game.  The item creation was another part of the system that PFS removed for many reasons, mainly from what I have seen balance and fairness. The minimum "down time" in between adventures would be 28 days. This is to allow players time to do in character actions they normally cannot do in a dungeon complex such as visiting the inn they purchased, taking care of NPC family members, etc. This can be used for item creation outside of game but the balance issue remains. My thoughts were how would players think about a game that used PFS item creation rules? Sounds cool. Didn't think I was coming off as battling the healing from the other poster, just offering solutions as I have seen this as a potential issue with cutting the class as it has been faced with groups that have played with no healer class at all. Do apologize to the other poster if I came off wrong in my reply.  Another real common way to deal with no healers is to buy wands but with no UMD... Thank you for your response and detailed points on the potential house rules. All in all I think they ideas for the campaign sound interesting but I don't understand the reason for the beginner box.  If you want more "balanced" rules they PFS system would be fine without overly limiting your characters. 

"No Attack of Opportunities No Combat Maneuvers or Combat Defense" No point in playing a melee class.  Literally -all- there is to do for fighters, rogues and melee rangers at this point is just roll d20's every round.  AoO's and combat maneuvers are a HUGE part of the melee/magic balance(yes it seems like I'm approaching this from the opposite end as Waffles).  Even without wizards/clerics though, the other spellcasters like oracles, druids, sorcs and witches can still buff, debuff, control, summon, and nuke.  All the melees can do is "I'm going to hit this guy with my weapon now *roll*."   And forcing Fighters to take certain feats makes the class even MORE unappealing than this already might have, but then if you've taken AoOs and maneuvers out you've also taken like 1/2 of their available bonus list anyway, so that seems redundant.  

Then again, like I said, I enjoy the tactical part of melee combat.  I like playing melee characters and I like having something to do.  In our Runelords game we've got a Paladin, a Rogue and a Fighter on the front lines, along with the Ranger's wolf companion.  We've gotten to the point now where when we're in combat it plays out like it's really a group of comrades who've learned exactly how to work together as a team.  We control the enemies with our threat ranges, we always make sure our rogue is set up for flanks, we stay out of eachother's way for charges, we have Combat Reflexes, Improved Bullrush, our Rogue has invested a lot of her skill into Acrobatics so she can tumble through threatened areas, and the wolf's auto-trip attempts and we've learned how to take full advantage of all those things without even needing to plan ahead or hesitate for more than a second or two on our turn.  It can get downright cinematic as we're tossing enemies around, cutting gaps for and covering one another, or when all three of us (who now have teamwork feats) go up against a Large or Huge enemy and start circling, distracting, setting one another up, and generally having a grand old time being total badasses.  Which then lends to camaraderie and gives us more stuff to work with, RP wise.

I thank everyone for the wonderful insight.  So as it seems, trying to streamline rules or incorporate the Beginners Box anything would be like injecting poison into the game. Fair enough.  I do know the rules and have ran campaigns from level 1 to level 20 (each of which dynamically effects the custom setting which is why the Cleric/Wizard classes are not allowed as it was from actions players did to the world in the last campaign. More details on this would be given to interested players when the campaign for these rules starts.  I did forget to mention wands and it was a good point about them being another source of healing that would be not an option with the Beginner Box rules. That said, straight Pathfinder Society rules seems welcomed but are there any changes to these that players would like to see most? What would be okay to expand on in PFS without breaking the core concepts of it? My main goal is simply fair and balanced. I want to let the players have fun and have super characters within reason. The "within reason" comes in as I am sure everyone reading this has ran or played in a game where one player stole the show every game due to a super character that could out pace the rest of the group in just about any task it found itself in. The rest of the players could not contribute to success of a challenge because of this "super character" and it diminished the fun for the other players. I don't mind players being really good at things (like +15 to a skill by level 3) as long as they are not good at everything to the point they hurt the fun for others. PFS does a good job of preventing this type of mentality and capability out of the box. Every time I allow an unrestricted (Paizo only) game, players tend to make the most min/max characters possible that do not stop at one or two tricks but many to the point others do not have fun do to one player being tempted by the system to break the system. I know I cannot stop players from doing this and just kick them out, but again when PFS has been played from the start, these problem players don't create problem characters and the group has fun. Which is the point of the game after all.  I know my current players love the Fame system and what they can buy with Prestige that enhances role play while granting game mechanic bonuses.   Things I would not mind to change on here for player's sake for expanded options (while keeping balance in mind) would be to allow the expanded races (such as Kitsune or even Strix) but disallow customization of the races which seems to be a good source of imbalance. Races with flying or darkvision only give minor bonuses to players until level 5? (or when Fly spells and item with that ability) become available.  Not worried about Archtypes as they are not a problem unless player tries to take too many of them. One to fit a theme is fine by me.  Item creation not too sure how to handle this as it is one of those tempting areas that some can't resist the temptation to break the game at. Suggestions welcome on this one.  PFS Alignment restrictions and no Anti-Paladin as a result I don't see an issue. I do make sure everyone understands regardless of Alignment or class there is no PvP and they are expected to function as a group (aka no killing another player and dumping his character's corpse down a gorge). However more harmless friction is fine such as thief stealing from paladin or paladin making thief return stolen church coffer money, or illusionist playing pranks on worshiper of Erastil just because etc. I feel those are safe to allow but maybe someone might disagree and point out why they shouldn't. Feedback welcome on this. Again, thank you everyone for all your posts in regards to these house rules.