Turn tracker - a few ideas

Hello,

here are the problems we encountered with the turn tracker in our first game. Maybe it is feasible to implement some of the functionality :)

The main issues we had was the turn tracker. It simply did not work for us well. In fact it was close to be not useable. The suggestions below were not a big issue during small encounters, but during a big fight in a kind of cave, we had 4 PC and about 20 NPC on the map and on the turn tracker. Some NPC came in later and some had to vanish since they were dead.

- Make it visible somehow where a new turn starts.

- Make it possible to add new participants in the turn tracker and remove them on the fly. Currently there is no way to add or remove a token when the tracker is open. It is really important to add new tokens and remove them to handle a death or new arrivals well.

- There must be a kind of automatic reorder according the number a token has on the turn tracker. In small encounters it is not much trouble, but imagine the encounter I mentioned above...

- In some role playing games, someone can get "on hold" during a turn. This means, he can postpone his action to later. I would like to set a flag (or let the controling player do it) when he get's on hold, to have an overview on the turn tracker who has his action and who is still on hold.

In the HERO system, each character acts several times in each turn, a number equal to his or her SPD characteristic, and the actions are interleaved in a complicated way dependent on the SPD table and the character's DEX. Similar things apply in such games as Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Bushido, Aftermath… each character acts several times per turn, different numbers of times for each, and the actions are interleaved in the turn in a complicated way. In ForeSight first edition your place in the turn order depends partly on whether you take Draw, Cache, Move, or Turn actions and how many, in later editions it depends on a roll you make at the beginning of each turn, and in all versions it depends on how tired and wounded you are—that is, it is different in every turn. In FATE, the sequence for each turn is set by an Alertness roll at the beginning of each turn.

So the turn tracker is no user to me whatsoever. It is simply not system-agnostic enough to be useful in any RPG that I play. Fortunately, I can still track initiative the way I used to before I had Roll20. Initiative-tracking doesn't need to be shared among the players, so it doesn't have to be on the VTT at all. If the turn tracker is close to unusable even for D&D players, axe it.

The biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to actively update when something changes. I think you have to close it and reopen it to get the changes and then I think you lose the numbers typed in.

As I just said a few minutes ago, in another thread, having the ability to toggle turn-taking via hotkey would be very helpful as long as the tracker would update.

I don't want the turn tracker to have any more logic in it than it has now but it HAS to update when the tabletop changes or it's useless.

With the hotkey approach, as you mark a token dead, you could also quickly just hit the hotkey and remove it from turns as well.

The biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to actively update when something changes.

No, the biggest problem is that many RPGs' initiative systems don't work the way it assumes.

Ok, guess I should have specified... The biggest problem, in regards to D&D-style games, is the updating...

*Edit: On the other hand, people generally take turns in order which is why, as it is currently, the tracker is system-agnostic. I just want it to update if I toggle a token as taking a turn or not which is how the tokens get there in the first place...

In regard to your postscript: it is not correct that in general people take turns. Taking turns is a special case, not the general case.

For instance, in a HERO system fight involving PCs A, B, and C with (SPD, DEX) = (5,26), (4, 23), and (3, 20) respectively, and six mooks with SPD, DEX) = (2,11) the sequence of actions is {A, B, C, mooks, recovery, A, B, C, A, B, mooks, A, C, B, A} and repeat. In games based on Aftermath the sequence is equally complicated (based on each character's MNA and BAP), in addition to which you have to keep track of which actions are base, which are primary, and which are secondary. And in many games the sequence varies from turn to turn.

I think it's kind of amusing the amount of blood being spilled over the turn tracker. To me, it's just there to have an order up on the screen, and the only problems I ever had with it are when I left extra objects on the token layer. Yeah, it could use some tweaking, but... to me it's just a pile of notecards.

Anywho, changes on the way.

I don't want any blood spilled over it, nor sweat either. It's not system-agnostic and even in the systems that it does support it isn't shared. I'd just as soon that it withered on the vine.

Goodness Agemegos, does every request I make require you to argue based on x game? I was asking for a simple change to an existing feature that doesn't change the way it works in any way other than to keep it updating with its current rules... Do I have to asterisk every damn statement I make with (* may not apply to every game under the sun) just so there are no arguments over my generalizations. Btw, my edit above was generalized based on CLASSIC games... Chess, Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, Poker, Spades, Hearts, D&D etc etc etc etc. See what I did there? D&D is a classic :). Sorry, had to change the tone a bit as I was getting a little frustrated...

Btw, thanks Nolan. Yeah, it's nothing to spill blood over... Just a minute to throw in a javascript update.... :)

And I just wanted to make a few suggestions based on our experiences. Agemegos, I feel sorry for being Constructive...

Goodness Agemegos, does every request I make require you to argue based on x game?

Of course not. Only the general claims that don't actually hold in general.

Do I have to asterisk every damn statement I make with (* may not apply to every game under the sun) just so there are no arguments over my generalizations.

If you like. It would be better, though, not to make generalisations that are sweeping and false—not to say "in general" when you mean "in my favourite game".

See what I did there?

Indeed I see. You shifted the goal, argued from irrelevant examples, and engaged in special pleading. Also, you attempted to patronise me.

Chess, Checkers, Tic-Tac-Toe, Poker, Spades, and Hearts aren't RPGs. Champions, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, Aftermath, and Bushido are classic RPGs that don't involve taking turns in rotation as the turn tracker supports.

But even if they weren't, "system agnostic" doesn't mean "doing special favour for classic systems".

I think it's kind of amusing the amount of blood being spilled over the turn tracker. To me, it's just there to have an order up on the screen, and the only problems I ever had with it are when I left extra objects on the token layer. Yeah, it could use some tweaking, but... to me it's just a pile of notecards.

Anywho, changes on the way.

Like Nolan said. It's a handy on-screen way of keeping track of who goes in what order. Works for me. I play HERO too, and I wouldn't use it for that, I have no need to because I have my speed chart next to me. I would use it to record the DEX of PCs/NPCs, which is handy info to have on-screen in front of you for tie breaks between characters of the same speed.

I just see this as a useful way of recording anything that happens in a certain order, which hits my game agnosticism right on.

Agemegos... Wow... It's a Virtual Table Top not a Virtual RPG Table Top. Even you have argued for card game features. Anyways, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. If you don't need the turn tracker for your specific games you don't have to use it but don't fight for it to be "withered on the vine" because others find it useful.

wow...

First, do we need a turn tracker? On a real table, we don't usually have one. But there we have much more communication by body language, or other visual clues (e.g. initiative cards in Savage Worlds). I think the difference is big enough to warrant a turn tracker.

Now, if I had to track turns on paper, what would I write down?

It would be a list of names. After each name, I would put some permanent stat (e.g. dex for a game that uses dex-based initiative). Then a number of columns. If the game has one action per turn, I'd put the order in one column and be done. If tokens with 2 weapons had a second action at the end of the turn, I'd add a second columns and mark their order there (empty for tokens with just one weapon). If tokens could delay actions, I'd add a column for delayed action; no number, but a checkbox (blank field=not delayed, box drawn=has delayed, box checked=has taken delayed action). I'd use a pencil for the columns and erase those columns after a turn that are turn-specific, depending on the game.

On a computer, I'd do the same, but add a "clear column" and a "sort by this column" button. I wouldn't need a checkbox, I'd just put an X into the cell for an outstanding delayed action and nothing for either no delayed action or delayed action already taken. Maybe I'd add a special feature that a double click into an empty cell copies the value from the first column (for games where tokens can have an optional secondary (or delayed) action in the same order as their primary action).

Oh, I nearly forgot, I'd also add a draggable column marker to announce which column (turn phase) is current. Same for rows, I don't quite like the current rotation system. It doesn't work well for games with turn phases.

Agemegos... Wow... It's a Virtual Table Top not a Virtual RPG Table Top.

That is not my impression at all.

Even you have argued for card game features.

Except for one facetious reference to playing Bridge (in the Kickstarter comments, I think), I have only argued for card-game features that are actually used in RPGs that I know of. Deadlands and Castle Falkenstein, for example, involve standard playing cards and such operations as dealing hands, discarding, drawing from a deck, playing face-up, etc. Other games involve special decks.

Anyways, I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

Try not belittling other people, their concerns, and the games they prefer.

If you don't need the turn tracker for your specific games you don't have to use it but don't fight for it to be "withered on the vine" because others find it useful.

I didn't fight for anything. I pointed out something important that was being overlooked. My expressing a different opinion to yours is not an assault.

Ignoring, for the moment, the "my system doesn't use a static initiative order vs. my system does" argument waging, how about a slight modification to the tracker to allow a dice roll... so if your game requires you to roll a dice and add a figure to it, you can add all the tokens that require to be added, and then instead of typing in the initiative result maybe type in the roll that's required for the initiative.

Ex. The players have a skirmish against assorted goons. You add the goon tokens to the table to set up the encounter then click on the turn-tracker, but instead of entering "12" for Goon A, you enter "/r 1d20+2" or simply just "1d20+2", click enter and it uses the result.

Also, instead of rotating the table, could we just use the highlighted green bar and yellow box on the table to cycle through the tokens? When it gets back to the top, then that would be a new round.

Having an 'update' or 'refresh' button would work for bringing in fresh goons and removing dead ones I suppose instead of opening and closing the tracker...

Perhaps a 'sort' button for ordering the tokens from highest number to lowest for quickness when several or more or (god forbid!) a tyranid-rush of new goons join the fracas.

Would any of these be possible?

For me, the most common action I do is trying to remove creatures from the turn order, either because they have died and stop participating in the combat, or because I forgot to uncheck 'takes a turn' on mundane map objects. So I'd love to see a quick way to remove creatures from the tracker.

A few changes that would make the tracker do everything I would want:

- A quick way to remove creatures from the tracker (dragging them out of the tracker or right click -> remove 'takes a turn').

- Include a setting to auto remove a creature if they have the 'dead' status.

(Already mentioned)
- Have the tracker refresh whenever there's a change to a creature 'takes a turn'.
- A sort button.

Dragging tokens in and out of the tracker window would speed up everything SO much. And another huge, huge plus would be having a "limbo" area in the tracker into which you could drag characters that delay or go on overwatch. I will heartily second Paul Croyle's suggestion of moving a highlight down through the list rather than cycling all the list members themselves. This is much like our home system of moving magnets on a whiteboard alongside a fixed printed scale of 1-30.

Now that I think about it, I could just import a graphic of a fixed 1-30 scale and copy/paste tokens onto it...

Basically the turn-tracker should just be a list of tokens. Drag a token into the tracker to set it's position, and there should be no other restriction. Each token can optionally have a number (or other character? X=dead?) next to it - the number doesn't need to be related in any way to the move order.

The start/end of a round can be marked by a start/end token if you like.

Drag tokens on, drag tokens up or down in the order, drag tokens off. Not every token on the field needs to be on the tracker, and there is no reason why the same token couldn't be dragged onto the tracker multiple times in multiple positions.

Maybe have a small separate section to drag tokens into if they're "waiting" outside the usual move order.

Simple to use, and completely system agnostic.

Oh, and one more thing - any tokens should be able to be dragged on from either the token layer or the GM layer. Tokens dragged on from the GM layer should only appear in the turn tracker for the GM, players should not see those items in the turn tracker.

+1 to those last two suggestions. With all of the game mechanics that are out there simpler is better :)

This thread escalated quickly. We love the enthusiasm for making Roll20 better. And as Nolan said changes to the turn tracker are coming.

Another +1 to those last two simple selections. Keep it agnostic and for tracking anything where you need to keep track of things happening in a certain order.

Another +1 to those last two simple selections. Keep it agnostic and for tracking anything where you need to keep track of things happening in a certain order.

This is currently the direction we are planning to go in.

And please, a button to sort the list :) Pretty please? *looking with puppy eyes* ;)

I had some ideas on this before so I'll throw them in now - http://community.roll20.net/discussion/236/possible-initiative-idea#Item_1 because rolling for initiative is one thing guaranteed to slow down combat. I think having it auto roll initiative per token or player and then sort the list based on it would massively speed that up.

Also, is it just me or has the blank turn counter token disappeared from it? I sort of needed that in for some systems to determine when everyone needed to re-roll initiative but I guess I need to do that manually now.

Oh, when I first tried it out, there was a 0 on the turn counter that was not assigned to any token. I thought that was intentional - a way of keeping track of when everyone had taken their turn and a new round had begun. Then I checked today and noticed the original "takes a turn" option was replaced with "add turn" and the turn counter was, by default, void of any phantom token. It makes things more seamless, sure, but some systems require a reroll of initiative at the end of every round and it worked nicely as a reminder of when to do that. Its no big deal though, I can always throw in a token image of a clock to remind me and give it a turn and that'll do the trick!

One tweak I would add to the tracker is that when you click on one of the numerals, the textbox that appears to allow editing should have the contents of the textbox *already highlighted* so that any keystrokes will overwrite. As it stands, I click on one of the default zeroes, commence typing, and end up with an initiative of, say, 150 :)

I think clicking away from the text box also probably should saved what's entered - I have a tendency to type one thing in and then another and then watch as everything seems to spring back to 0.

The turn tracker was the thing that my group of players complained most about.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I'll add it here for the sake of convenience.

I'd like to be able to manually edit that participants in the turn tracker so that if a combatant runs from combat or a new combatant joins it's as simple as adding or deleting a line. I'd also like to be able to enter multiple actions (phases or whatever) for each combatant separated by commas or whatever, I play a lot of games where people get multiple actions around that aren't necessarily evenly interspersed (shadowrun, 7th Sea, homebrew WoD rules etc) and this would let the turn tracker work for multiple systems.

To take Age's example above:

the sequence of actions is {A, B, C, mooks, recovery, A, B, C, A, B, mooks, A, C, B, A}

I could stick in:

A=1, 5, 8, 11, 14
B=2, 6, 9, 13
C=3, 7, 12
M=4, 10,

And it would run fine (though I might need to add in a "recovery" phase in between 4 and 5, not sure about the system).

Then if in the middle of the combat B got hit with something that knocked them out or caused them to flee I could just delete B's line and things would continue on. ALso if a group of mook reinforcements (with different stats) showed up in round 3 I could just add another line and off we'd go.

Josh -- Can you not already do this? Just right-click the token and select Add Turn however many times you want, then drag and drop to reorder the list. You can also hover over an existing token in the list to remove just that line/turn. Let me know if that doesn't work for you for some reason.

I have to admit that I had a hard time finding tokens and combat in the game I'm running is pretty fluid so I didn't have battlemaps and tokens set up for the two combats that occurred last session. I'll try and set up a D&D style "maps & tokens" combat for next session to see if that works but in an ideal world I'd like the turn tracker to not be reliant on tokens so that I can use it for encounters that aren't planned (like if my characters suddenly decided to kidnap some random NPC) without having to slow down the narrative by setting up maps and tokens.

I haven't had a chance to play a game with the tool yet.

But like everybody else on the internet, I have an opinion.

In my own D&D game, we use tokens to form a conga line of initiative order. We just move the current player's token to the back of the line. Whether the list always resorts the current player, or a highlighter or marker moves to the current player is fine.

Filling in the number field to set the play order and having it auto-sort would seem to be the most obvious design. From there, if that number field could take a number, a plus or minus number or a dice code would pretty much cover basic needs.

Either enter your turn order (1, 2, 3, etc) or your initiative number or even your initiative rolling code (1d20+3 or 2d6 for some other game).

There's also been some good ideas for drag-n-drop off or right click to remove dead tokens. It seems pretty important that adding/removing monsters that don't apply should be easy.

For the problem of statuses, when you click on a token in the turn tracker (or right-click instead), why not present some of the same status/aura/marker behaviors that the map uses on tokens. That way you could set your token to have a Gray marker to mean you are on Overwatch or holding action, or whatever.

I haven't had a chance to play a game with the tool yet.

But like everybody else on the internet, I have an opinion.

You sir, just made me laugh. Have a cookie.

Has it been made possible yet to assign multiple map tokens to a specific turn particularly for multiple instances of the same NPC?

I ask as I was playing in a game and rather than using the markers to show mook death the tokens were just removed from the board. When the token associated with the mass NPC initiative count was removed the turn count was removed from the list as well.

Running combat in an RPG destroys pacing. “An arrow comes flying from the treeline striking the tree just to your left. Orcs materialize from the brush and come rushing towards you roaring their battlecries.” Ok. Now everyone roll initiative. What did you roll Mark? Tom was that a 13 or a 12? Ok, so the order’s going to be Mark, Tom, Orc1, Orc2, Susan…

I would love to see a feature that I could turn on that would streamline the initiative process. For example in the nWoD you have an initiative modifier, say 6, and you roll 1d10 and add it to that number, highest to lowest initiative order. If when I started a new combat it would automatically roll a preset die (d10 for WoD, d20 for DnD) and add the available tokens initiative and then order them for me it would make breaking out into combat seem exciting instead of hurry up and wait.

@Alicia Without the token the system has nothing to tie the turn to. What I would recommend instead would be to either:

Have the GM move the token to the GM layer. (This will hide it from players, and it will remain in the turn tracker, but only visible to the GM)

Second option: Have a section of map that's hidden by FoW and just drag the token down there. Out of sight, but still existing for all purposes of the turn tracker. This method has the added benefit of remaining visible for players, so depending on if you want them to be able to see the token or not, these are probably your best solutions at least for now.

@Alicia Without the token the system has nothing to tie the turn to. What I would recommend instead would be to either:

Have the GM move the token to the GM layer. (This will hide it from players, and it will remain in the turn tracker, but only visible to the GM)

Second option: Have a section of map that's hidden by FoW and just drag the token down there. Out of sight, but still existing for all purposes of the turn tracker. This method has the added benefit of remaining visible for players, so depending on if you want them to be able to see the token or not, these are probably your best solutions at least for now.

The problem then becomes remembering which one out of maybe half a dozen tokens that are the same you used to make the turn order.
I suppose instead of out right deleting the tokens they could just be moved to the GM layer which works as well. Though the GM would still have to deal with the tokens still remaining on the board, which defeats the original intention of removing them.

I was just curious if the option had been implemented. Thanks for your response.

Wow. Every topic has so much input you need half an hour to see what's already been suggested.

I've not started using Roll20 yet, but plan to very soon. So sorry if this is already available or has already been suggested.

It would be usefull if the turn tracker kept track of the number of turns that had passed and allowed you to add effect to tokens that lasted a number of turns. The tracker could then manage these for the GM.

So for instance you would be able to add the effect 'stunned' to Meatheads token and give it a value for the number of turns it's in effect. Then as each turn passes the value is decreased automatically.

Can we integrate inCombat4e? Master Plan already has it integrated so you it should be possible and this can be generified for all systems.

http://laughterforever.com/inCombat/

Don´t know if this have been suggested yet. But I would love to see a chat notification whenever the turn shift to another creature. "Player 1 turn" or something like it would be a great help for me and my group.

So mainly taking from other suggestions above, here is what I think is a clear, simple list of system agnostic features that seem like they would make most everyone happy:
-Multiple columns, ability to sort by any column on the fly
-Freely add/remove any number of each token
-Add a dice roll to each entry
-Able to place a marker on any entry, to signify taking a turn off or anything of the sort
-Marker that can be dragged freely to any entry to mark the current turn
-Counter on each entry that is incremented each time the current turn marker is on that entry and can be reset at any time (good for tracking timed effects, etc)

yep.

So mainly taking from other suggestions above, here is what I think is a clear, simple list of system agnostic features that seem like they would make most everyone happy:
-Multiple columns, ability to sort by any column on the fly
-Freely add/remove any number of each token
-Add a dice roll to each entry
-Able to place a marker on any entry, to signify taking a turn off or anything of the sort
-Marker that can be dragged freely to any entry to mark the current turn
-Counter on each entry that is incremented each time the current turn marker is on that entry and can be reset at any time (good for tracking timed effects, etc)

Yes, and well put. These are the things I came here to suggest. One more detail -- there should be an option for the counter to start at 1 or at 0 (zero).

I'm impressed that there is already the option to add the same token multiple times for those 'interwoven' examples mentioned above.

I would prefer a static list with an indicator that moves to the token whose turn is now. I'm not a fan of the 'follow the leader' depiction used now. Are there benefits to this that people have experience with?

Can we integrate inCombat4e? Master Plan already has it integrated so you it should be possible and this can be generified for all systems.

http://laughterforever.com/inCombat/

After having a look at it, this is far from rules agnostic. I haven't even seen a way to modify it for other games.