Macros are taking away from the game.

Hey guys and gals, I don't know if its just me or if everyone feels the same way about it. Let me explain because I have clearly not done that. I come from a table top background, I have played just about everything you can think of and I run D&D table top on a weekly basis. I made the switch to roll20 to cater for some friends of mine in a different state or that live further away then my regulars. I run a pretty tight tutorial for new players of 4E and take an approach to it that some might find a bit "hardcore". I have a strict belief that for a person to become a functional player that they should understand the fundamentals of the game and how the mathematics works. For instance I believe that players need to understand how their damage and attack rolls work and where they get the numbers, from their they can work out the comparisons for defense. Honestly I think its pretty simple to work out, its not exactly rocket surgery. However I have run into this problem with players not understanding these fundamentals and these player continue to disrupt games and causing longer then average time on their turn by asking the same question "Ok so I roll a d20 and what do I add". Now some of these players are just ignorant and haven't spent the time to learn it, other I am finding now have been spoiled by Macros. Macros are a great idea in theory and can be just the thing a GM needs to help the campaign run smoothly, however for players macros can be the "calculator" to the math class drop out. You don't learn math by using a calculator, you learn math by doing the equation and working it out. Analogies aside for a moment. What I am getting at is that players using macros are not essentially learning the game, they are learning to press buttons. I tend to think that macros are taking away from the game, because GMs are creating macros to make simple thing like attack rolls and that is just making a whole generation of lazy players.

Well most would think macros quicken the game since you only need a feww clicks to know the end result. Personally I don't use macros mostly because I think they are a bit complicated for me. Anyways, I dont really think macros should be blamed since they are there to help. Newbies tend to ask for help when they dont know what to roll, but with more advanced players helping them out and them not even going to memorise the calculations due to just clicking on one macro. And you would find that most games have more than enough ways to screw with a set formula. Changing the stats and decreasing or adding certain bonuses will require players to learn and adapt ultimately.

A perfectly reasonable approach, but to counter that I find complex mechanics can be a barrier to players simply enjoying the storytelling experience. I'd rather players simply fire off a macro I've made than have to learn the system, because not everyone derives enjoyment from learning a battle system and working out how to best utilize the rules. Some people just enjoy a more free-flow encounter with dice rolls used to help determine what happens, but as with online games, they don't necessarily want to have to know the maths behind it.

Anthony C. said: However I have run into this problem with players not understanding these fundamentals and these player continue to disrupt games and causing longer then average time on their turn by asking the same question "Ok so I roll a d20 and what do I add". Now some of these players are just ignorant and haven't spent the time to learn it, other I am finding now have been spoiled by Macros. I dunno - this has been going on long, long before Roll20. Some players - and some quite good players, otherwise - just don't want to interact with rules or systems at all and prefer to focus on the characterization. Others have a huge mental blind spot regarding rules. If a macro can help out these players, great. If players are deliberately obtuse in order to derail the game, then they need to go and a macro won't solve the issue. Case in point, here's a conversation from a rec room circa 1998. Him: I shoot the stormtrooper. How many dice do I roll? Me: What does it say on your character sheet? Him: Five Dee. Me: Okay. (pause) Him: How many do I roll? Me: This is why we don't play Battletech.

It's not like you're required to use or make macros for your groups. If someone wants to take the time to make a roll macro for their own character, so what? It's kind of hard to make the macro if you don't know the system. Otherwise they're completely optional (and for some systems not even that useful). I personally like macros because it speeds things up. As a GM, for instance, I have a macro* that rolls attacks based on the currently selected NPC. Could I look at the monster's stat sheet, /r d20+7, or heck just /r d20 and add 7 in my head? Sure, I've been doing it for years. Is it faster to click the token and hit one button, without having to open up anything? Way faster. For someone who has a deep understanding of the mechanics (and let's face it, 99% of systems pretty much either involve addition or subtraction, not calculus) a macro is purely a time saver. I've personally never created macros for my players because I want their character sheets, and how they choose to play, to be up to them. To each their own, I guess, but I don't see them being removed any time, well, ever. Sorry. * /r d20+@{selected|bar2} Where Bar 2 has their attack bonus, for d20 based systems. Also handy: /gmroll d20+?{Initiative modifier?} &{tracker} This will bring up a dialog box for a monster's initiative modifier, then roll the value and add the selected token to the tracker. I use /gmroll to hide off-screen or hidden monster initiative rolls from players.

i dont like macros, i would rather have a small text box that i can edit and format that explains an ability, and maybe just have the button for the correct dice on that ability ... would be so sick

It's a player's responsibility to learn the rules of the game they've agreed to play as quickly as possible. Nobody should be expected to be perfect, but should strive to improve each session. It's simply easier to GM for a player that knows the rules. Anyone who is choosing not to learn the rules is choosing to make it harder on the group and they should be shown the door in my view. To that end, it has nothing to do with macros and everything to do with the player.

I've got to disagree here a bit with you HJ. I do agree that players need to learn the system. But any d20 system has a LOT of information. Example: A level 8 hasted heroic halfling rogue with 18 dexterity and the following feats: weapon finese, two-weapon fighting, blind fight feats - is trying to surprise attack a large creature in difficult terrain in a fog cloud with a +5 dagger and a normal shortsword. What do I roll to hit? What is added? What is taken away? Why? What do I roll for damage if I do hit? Having a macro for some things makes sense. It is no differnet than having to take three or four seconds to look at my roll notes that I've jotted down on a peice of paper. Nobody knows everything. I'm an interpreter for a living which means I have to have a really good memory. But I can't remember everything. So I write things down. It isn't cheating. It doesn't make me less of an interpreter. It makes me prepared.

Paul S. said: I've got to disagree here a bit with you HJ. I do agree that players need to learn the system. But any d20 system has a LOT of information. Example: A level 8 hasted heroic halfling rogue with 18 dexterity and the following feats: weapon finese, two-weapon fighting, blind fight feats - is trying to surprise attack a large creature in difficult terrain in a fog cloud with a +5 dagger and a normal shortsword. What do I roll to hit? What is added? What is taken away? Why? What do I roll for damage if I do hit? Having a macro for some things makes sense. It is no differnet than having to take three or four seconds to look at my roll notes that I've jotted down on a peice of paper. Nobody knows everything. I'm an interpreter for a living which means I have to have a really good memory. But I can't remember everything. So I write things down. It isn't cheating. It doesn't make me less of an interpreter. It makes me prepared. That there are macros in Roll20 doesn't obviate a player's responsibility to learn the rules of the game he or she has opted to play.

Headhunter Jones said: That there are macros in Roll20 doesn't obviate a player's responsibility to learn the rules of the game he or she has opted to play. I guess the question is: what do macros have to do with it? When I played a short pathfinder module with my wife I had her roll and told her what to add. Isn't that the same thing? To use a real world example, if the GM makes character sheets for their players, and the players just roll and add the bonuses based on the character sheet without bothering to learn why they're adding that number, have they cheated? Isn't that pretty much what a macro is doing? I just can't see why macros have any influence on the core complaint which is that players should learn the system. If you feel that way, great, don't have players who don't learn the system. If you don't care if they know or not, and the players just want to know whether or not they succeed or fail without learning the math, what's the problem? Ultimately a macro is just a copy/paste of something the player could type anyway, or the same as a GM handing a player the right dice in a face-to-face game and telling them to just roll it, then telling them if they succeed or fail. No big deal. A level 8 hasted heroic halfling rogue with 18 dexterity and the following feats: weapon finese, two-weapon fighting, blind fight feats - is trying to surprise attack a large creature in difficult terrain in a fog cloud with a +5 dagger and a normal shortsword. What do I roll to hit? What is added? What is taken away? Why? What do I roll for damage if I do hit? 1d20+16. Base attack is +6, 18 dex with weapon finesse is +4, +5 for the dagger, +1 for the haste. The creature is irrelevant, as is the terrain (affects movement only) and fog (20% miss chance, rerolled due to blind fight). Damage is 1d4+5+Strength modifier, plus 4d6 sneak attack if the creature isn't immune to critical hits and doesn't have uncanny dodge. The surprise attack affects damage and the possibly the AC of the target, but not your attack roll. It's a bit harder if you are doing a full attack with all three attacks, then you're looking at +14/+9/+9, with damage rolls of 1d4+5+Str twice and 1d6+Str once. I'm assuming pathfinder/3.5, 4e is a whole different beast and I'm not as familiar with it. And I would totally macro that crap, heh.

Level 8 Rogue = +6 BAB Heroic = nothing as far as I am aware Halfling = +1 size bonus to attack 18 Dex = +4 attack bonus (with Weapon Finesse) Haste = +1 +5 Dagger = +5 Total bonuses: +17 (+12 for Short Sword) Single Attack (dagger): +17 and roll the 20% miss chance twice Full attack: +15/+10dagger and +10 Short Sword (-2 for TWF, -5 for second attack) and roll the 20% miss chance twice per attack. Single attack damage: 1d4+5+Strength bonus (Dagger). No Sneak attack due to concealment. Full attack damage: 1d4+5+Strength bonus (Dagger) and 1d6+0+1/2 Strength bonus (Short Sword). No Sneak Attack due to concealment. Now, if the rogue had a way to ignore concealment that would be another matter. There are a variety of ways to do so. :) - Gauss

Kristin , we each have our strengths, mine is mechanics. Yours is story etc. :) - Gauss

Wow that escalated quickly. Thanks for the response guys, its good to see the opinions out there. I guess that some of the thing you guys are saying is very true and I as someone who is constantly striving to have a very story driven campaign can see the benefits of using macros. I am definitely not asking to get rid of them the macro system.

Arg, can't believe I left out the halfling size bonus. I thought about it in my head when comparing creature sizes then forgot to add it. This is why macros are so handy, lol, to avoid screwing up the math! =) I also forgot about concealment negating sneak attack...was trying to do it all without looking up the rules. Reminds me why this stuff can be so intimidating to new players.

Jacquesne J. , yup, it takes a lot of work to remember all the rules and even then I still am not accurate all the time. I have people in my saturday group that simply would not play if I insisted they remember all the rules. - Gauss

Headhunter Jones said: To that end, it has nothing to do with macros and everything to do with the player This. I recently started an Eclipse Phase game. For those that don't know, EP is very, very skill intensive, so there are a lot of skills. So, I wrote an API code to macro all those skills. Basically, I put in the Attributes and skills with macros inserted. All the players had to do was go in and edit the formula already in place with whatever skill points and bonuses applied to that skills. At that point, they would just click and roll. I had a player who said to me, "that looks like a lot of work you put into that, but I won't be using it. It is too complicated. It is much simpler to just do 1d100 > XX . So, I had him jump into roll20 with me, and I walked him through the process of how macros work. I said the best part is, I give you a modifier to your roll, you click roll button, enter modifier, then blam-o! out pops the result. No, more doing crazy math on the fly or searching your c-sheet to readjust the target number. Everything is right there. Player agreed with me, and did as he was told with the macro, and everything went very smoothly for all the players, as I said it would. Funny story, the macros I ran for the NPCs were all jacked up, and didn't work so well. However, my players were very quick to get there rolls out, and almost all of my players are brand new to the system. The macros helped them immensely. It was a learning experience for all of us (myself included as I have never played the game). However, having the macros available to the players and myself when mine were working was a great thing. They understand the concept of what is being rolled, and they only need to push a button, enter in two numbers, and continue the game. It seems to me that you have just had a string of bad luck with the players you have found in your games, and to that I am sorry.

Macros = win. Players should be willing to learn a system to a point . Seriously, the above halfling scenario reminds me of what got me out of pnp gaming years back. In an average group, trying to get all the pieces of that calculation lined up correctly, and dealing with the rules enthusiast, and looking up reference chapters.... just to get an attack roll? I'd rather be doing anything else. The narrative derailment entailed is soul-breaking.

I agree and disagree. Macros make the whole system a lot easier, and they enable quick clicks to solve easy problems. Attack roll - click - done. Damage roll - click - done. It speeds up combat and seriously helps immersion, the only way I've found it to be better is at a table with real die and everyone knowing their bonuses off by heart. The biggest issue, I find- is temporary modifiers. I mostly play 4.0 and Pathfinder, so I'm not sure on what other systems have for this, but temporary bonuses don't really go with Macros, simply because you forget. When you're doing nothing but clicking the macro button to do your attacks, you forget what your bonus is and why. So when something changes to make you increase or decrease a stat, and thus change your rolls, it's a bit annoying. Here's an example from Pathfinder: A Barbarian can enrage for X rounds, after which they become exhausted for double the rounds. Whilst raging, they gain 4 to strength and constitution, and take a -2 hit to their AC. This can all pretty simply be done in an API script thankfully, but for free players it's an annoying hassle to have to go back to their sheet, look at their stats again to see exactly how they got whatever bonus is in their macro, and then tack on the extras and make a new roll for it. This is the simple stuff. Now try: A paladin using "Smite Evil" picks a single target and gains bonuses - IF the target is L/N/C Evil. They get their charisma bonus added to their attack rolls and their level added to their damage rolls against that target. They also get an extra 2 damage per level (and bypass DR) On the first hit, IF the target is an evil dragon, undead or outsider. In addition, they get a deflection bonus (which doesn't stack with others of the same type) to AC equal to charisma bonus against attacks made by that enemy. Thankfully it lasts until the enemy is dead. Now an API CAN help with some of this, but the amount of modifiers and conditionals means that you're going to be floundering unless you've got all of your stuff ready ahead of schedule. If you already know Str - 4 + BAB - 6 = +10 to attack rolls, then adding the extra 12 in your head is easy. But if you're used to 'click-click' macro attacks, then battle can stall for a while as you flounder between your sheet and the board while writing up a new /roll. tl;dr Macros Cause temporary dumb in even the experienced, which suck when playing with temporary modifiers.

Just my $.02, but learning the rules isn't something that can just be done overnight. I mean, the basic mechanics are a must, but beyond that the player should simply focus on what they need to know and learn what they can as they go along. You can't become an expert based only on theory, you have to have some practical experience as well.

The ironic part, of course, is that in a d20 game, the swing on the die is so big that by the time you've done all the "necessary" calculations to figure out your net bonus or penalty, you could have just rolled the damn die and figured out if you hit or not just by the number shown (most of the time).

Gauss said: Level 8 Rogue = +6 BAB Heroic = nothing as far as I am aware Halfling = +1 size bonus to attack 18 Dex = +4 attack bonus (with Weapon Finesse) Haste = +1 +5 Dagger = +5 Total bonuses: +17 (+12 for Short Sword) Single Attack (dagger): +17 and roll the 20% miss chance twice Full attack: +15/+10dagger and +10 Short Sword (-2 for TWF, -5 for second attack) and roll the 20% miss chance twice per attack. Single attack damage: 1d4+5+Strength bonus (Dagger). No Sneak attack due to concealment. Full attack damage: 1d4+5+Strength bonus (Dagger) and 1d6+0+1/2 Strength bonus (Short Sword). No Sneak Attack due to concealment. Now, if the rogue had a way to ignore concealment that would be another matter. There are a variety of ways to do so. :) - Gauss Heroic is my way of saying Heroism spell - should have clarified. <a href="http://paizo.com/prd/spells/heroism.html#_heroism" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/prd/spells/heroism.html#_heroism</a>

Jacquesne J. said: Arg, can't believe I left out the halfling size bonus. I thought about it in my head when comparing creature sizes then forgot to add it. This is why macros are so handy, lol, to avoid screwing up the math! =) I also forgot about concealment negating sneak attack...was trying to do it all without looking up the rules. Reminds me why this stuff can be so intimidating to new players. And you made my point for me. Thank you. I intentionally threw the size difference in there because folks forget that one.

Headhunter Jones said: The ironic part, of course, is that in a d20 game, the swing on the die is so big that by the time you've done all the "necessary" calculations to figure out your net bonus or penalty, you could have just rolled the damn die and figured out if you hit or not just by the number shown (most of the time). This. I agree so very much. And please understand my halfling example was to highlight why it HELPS to have macros. But as I stated in beginning of my post, I do agree that players NEED to learn the rules.

The campaigns I'm running on roll20 I am allowing the use of macros simply because it makes the game run a bit smoother but they are not macros I've made. All my guys I play with know the rules and mechanics for the most part but I still have them make their own macros if they want to. Everyone has chosen to so far because through our test runs we found that it makes combat run a lot smoother, also I'm using the API for the end button so that they can roll and if they roll really low they know they miss and if that's all they are doing on their turn they just end their turn and it moves onto the next person. I think it's quite handy but I leave it up to the players to decide what they want to do

Tack, you can put in conditional modifiers into your Macros. If you want help with that let me know. - Gauss

Alan H. said: A perfectly reasonable approach, but to counter that I find complex mechanics can be a barrier to players simply enjoying the storytelling experience. I'd rather players simply fire off a macro I've made than have to learn the system, because not everyone derives enjoyment from learning a battle system and working out how to best utilize the rules. Some people just enjoy a more free-flow encounter with dice rolls used to help determine what happens, but as with online games, they don't necessarily want to have to know the maths behind it. This. +1 To me and I am sure many other players, the math and consequent slowness of tabletop was not my favorite thing. Macros have made the game much faster in battles, leaving more time for storytelling and RP. I doubt I would be so enamored with this website had people always had to type in rolls.

Paul S. said: This. I agree so very much. And please understand my halfling example was to highlight why it HELPS to have macros. But as I stated in beginning of my post, I do agree that players NEED to learn the rules. Definitely. I bet a non-trivial amount of time at the gaming table is spent on calculating bonuses that mean nothing when the actual die is rolled. I'm a fan of Rolling The Damn Die before going through all the calculations. If it's a 3, you missed probably. If it's an 18, you probably hit. And I'm pretty sure that it's an immutable law of the universe that if you go through the effort of figuring out all the bonuses, you will be cursed and roll that 3 as punishment for wasting everyone's valuable time.

I have players that roll a 3 and say they missed before adding in bonuses. When I ask for the bonuses they are surprised that, yes, they hit. Some people just have ridiculous bonuses. :) - Gauss

Not to try to start an edition war, but when a system gets as complex as the halfling example above, I think that the use of macros is the least of the problem in one's game.

I find laying the issue of players failing to learn the game at the feet of macro's ludicrous. Every table I've run (IRL) there's been new people and some of them "get" the system and some of them don't. The ones who don't area always asking "what do I roll?" for the first million times (it seems) until they start picking it up. The fact that it's no different on a virtual tabletop does not mean it's the fault of Macros.

My beef with macro's is while they can be helpful for a player as well as to the game in general as it does speed things up, I find that most of the time people are using their macro and then saying "add/subtract x from that". Which while still faster seems to negate the entire point of using the macro, yes I know you can create macro's that have a variable in them that you can enter each time, most people don't use them though. So in the end they have a macro that rolls a d20, maybe has the description of the power/ability but still end up having to take time to modify it. As for the halfling comment. Most of that information would be on the characters sheet (save for the heroic and haste spell effects) so as a DM and/or player you should at least have that to look at for reference. There are also issues about having a new player jump in at level 8 and you as a DM apparently not wanting to take the time to make sure said new player understands everything, or the fact that said char has a +5 item at level 8 but that is neither here nor there. My point is, if you are taking on a new player as a DM you should be willing to take the time to explain to them everything that is going on even mid game so that they have the knowledge. If you aren't willing to do that then stop letting new people into your game, simple as that. Then as the sessions go on you give them a little less help until they can stand on their own. They will always have questions, everyone does, so answer them. Knowledge is power/ammunition.

You might try building macros that explain and teach the rules. For example, your macro could be: /em swings his magic sword: [[1d20 + @{BAB} + @{Strength} + @{Weapon} + ?{Situational Modifiers|0} ]] /w playername Rules reminder: Thats a roll of a twenty-sider plus the following modifiers: /w playername + [[@{BAB} ]], your Base Attack Bonus. This is determined by your Class and Level. /w playername + [[@{Strength} ]], your Strength Modifier. This is deteremined by your Strength rating, and is added to all melee attack rolls. /w playername + [[@{Weapon}]], your Weapon Modifier. This is the bonus from you magic weapon. /w playername +/- one or more a situational modifiers from terrain, spell effects, etc. Your GM will tell you what number to enter there when you make the roll. It's likely to change from round to round, depending on how the story unfolds. The whole group gets the important stuff (who's attacking, and what their roll was). The player who took the action gets an itemized breakdown of what parts of their character sheet contributed to that roll, to help them learn how the system works. The people who need explanations get it, but the chatlog stays nice and clean for most of the players.

Well, I'm all for macros, but it sounds like Rolfe just put down a little golden egg, since it would teach newbies how it works, refresh the experienced folks on it and quickly make it apparent if something on your token isn't up to date. Win - win - win!

If the GM is making the macro for the player then of course the player will be lacking in what's going on. I recommend my players make their macros prior to gameplay, not just because macros speed things up, but because it does a very special thing... Makes them read their damn stats to make them properly. Also it has 100% of the time for me so far caused the player to ask in advance about a skill they were unsure of when they would have waited until actually trying to use it. Macros are a tool, tools do not harm. You do, in fact, have the ability to learn math with a Calculator so long as you are taking into account the steps the calculator is going through. As to the statement about "well players still have to +/- things due to whatever" They'd have to do this at the playtable altogether, and in fact when I make macros for my own play I factor it in to state any other bonuses I might be getting. Macros are, in my opinion, not for the utterly new to begin with, this goes for almost every computer game (Again this is OPINION). Macros are something to develop as familiarity builds with whatever you are doing. So from a teaching standpoint this wouldn't be where you're beginning anyhow. TLDR: Macros are a tool that should be used properly to streamline the gaming process on both sides of the screen but should be crafted by the person using them so that they have an understanding of what is going on. You can guide a player on it, and should, but should never hand-feed them everything. Also, I adore that Macro Rolfe +1

Macro's are fantastic. A player who doesn't know the rules does not hurt you. I run only home brew systems because i think D@D systems are irrational, and I think Whitewolf systems have to much dice rolling. So no one knows my rules. But command and control, and the soft power of influence can do wonders for maintaining your party integregy. Though I'm old school ... characters matter more than dice, and if I have player with a great idea about a character but a dumb idea about dice, i'd rather have that than the opposite. A power gamer is useless in arationally written campaign.

I feel Macros take away from the gritty "In the 'Hood" feeling you get from typing it out 150 times

Why are you typing it out.... there is a perfectly good dice roller.

Tack said: I agree and disagree. Macros make the whole system a lot easier, and they enable quick clicks to solve easy problems. Attack roll - click - done. Damage roll - click - done. It speeds up combat and seriously helps immersion, the only way I've found it to be better is at a table with real die and everyone knowing their bonuses off by heart. The biggest issue, I find- is temporary modifiers. I mostly play 4.0 and Pathfinder, so I'm not sure on what other systems have for this, but temporary bonuses don't really go with Macros, simply because you forget. When you're doing nothing but clicking the macro button to do your attacks, you forget what your bonus is and why. So when something changes to make you increase or decrease a stat, and thus change your rolls, it's a bit annoying. Here's an example from Pathfinder: A Barbarian can enrage for X rounds, after which they become exhausted for double the rounds. Whilst raging, they gain 4 to strength and constitution, and take a -2 hit to their AC. This can all pretty simply be done in an API script thankfully, but for free players it's an annoying hassle to have to go back to their sheet, look at their stats again to see exactly how they got whatever bonus is in their macro, and then tack on the extras and make a new roll for it. This is the simple stuff. Now try: A paladin using "Smite Evil" picks a single target and gains bonuses - IF the target is L/N/C Evil. They get their charisma bonus added to their attack rolls and their level added to their damage rolls against that target. They also get an extra 2 damage per level (and bypass DR) On the first hit, IF the target is an evil dragon, undead or outsider. In addition, they get a deflection bonus (which doesn't stack with others of the same type) to AC equal to charisma bonus against attacks made by that enemy. Thankfully it lasts until the enemy is dead. Now an API CAN help with some of this, but the amount of modifiers and conditionals means that you're going to be floundering unless you've got all of your stuff ready ahead of schedule. If you already know Str - 4 + BAB - 6 = +10 to attack rolls, then adding the extra 12 in your head is easy. But if you're used to 'click-click' macro attacks, then battle can stall for a while as you flounder between your sheet and the board while writing up a new /roll. tl;dr Macros Cause temporary dumb in even the experienced, which suck when playing with temporary modifiers. just a point: you can run a macro like this to add in raging: /e attacks with @{his/her} @{EquippedWeapon}: ( [[1d20 + @{BAB} + (@{Strength} + (3*?{raging?(1=yes)|0})) + @{EquippedAttack} - @{PowerAttack} - @{CombatExpertise} + ?{Additional Attack Bonus/Penalty?|0} ]] ) for [[@{EquippedDamage} + (@{Strength} + ( (3 + 1d8) * ?{raging?(1=yes)|0} )) + ?{Additional damage?|0} ]] dam. just so you know, specifically that macro will work out the correct bonuses for a barbarian who is raging with a +6 to str and using a light weapon (shortsword etc). obviously it (the macro, not the sword) gets longer when you have to work out the various levels of power attack on damage rolls based on weapon size. I have a macro for each type that applies (light, 1Handed, 2Handed, offhand light, and offhand 1handed) this can be used for ANY kind of straight damage that is only occasionally applied, and works just as well for sneak attack: just use (@{sneakattack} * ?{apply sneak attack damage?(1=yes)|0} where the attribute sneak attack is set further down the list. requires a little bit of editing each time a character gains a new situational modifier, but can be used for so many things (rangers favored enemies, as another example, along with the above example of SMITE) so that it prompts you for the mod each time you attack. of course, this is all based on how many queries you actually want for each attack, but its relatively fast, with most attacks being 'click macro, hit enter to enter default of 0. press 1 then enter for applying the modifier.' quite intuitive really. also have the same thing for ranged and thrown weapons, where it asks the distance to the target and then calculates the modifiers automatically for the range, tells you what your range modified roll was, and if the range was in targetable distance (ie 5xrange for thrown, 10xrange for ranged). I say keep the flow going, let the macro do all the work, just have the player define the variables when he rolls.