GURPS magic question

Hey all. Just started checking out GURPS and need help understanding 3 things : 1). with magery 3 and IQ 12 - any new spell learned is at 15 to start right? If it is magery 4 and IQ 16 then all new spells learned begging at 20 right. 2). How the hell do you get spell skills to 30 as referenced in books several places?? The point cost would be stupid high!! 3). Similarly. How do folks get enough FP to cast higher level spells? Some have FP costs of 100. Buy them all with CP? That's ALOT of CP. Everything else is making sense so far with this system and I think I like it. Think.

1) Not quite...you learn as if you had an effective IQ of 15. Spells are either hard or very hard skills (p. B235) - so for one CP you'd start at a level of (IQ+Magery) minus 2 for Spell-13 for a hard spell, or at (IQ+Magery) minus 3 for Spell-12 for a very hard spell. With IQ of 16 and Magery 4, you'd be starting at 18 or 17 for one CP, respectively. 2) Going on lots of adventures and/or study time. Each adventure should net you around 3 CP and you get 1 CP for every 200 hours spent in study during down time. These are potentially game breaking levels of power along the lines of high wealth, rank and status, so IMO should cost quite a lot. 3) High skill levels subtract from the amount of FP needed, extra FP advantage, treating a spell as a ritual (p. B237), and the Ceremonial magic rules (p B238) all contribute to allow casting of the big FP cost spells.

Thanks for the reply. Seems like magic won't work for me in GURPS after all. I was thinking of trying to port over Wheel of Time to GURPS but the magic system is all wrong and I can't see a way to make it right. I've read the Powers, fantasy, magic, and thaumatology and can't find a system of magic in all that which comes close to Wheel of Time (novels not d20) without scrapping or completely revamping all magic rules. Damn shame. GURPS works so well for the rest of the Wheel of Time world.

I am unfamiliar with the Wheel of Time series, but what seems to be the stumbling block? There are variant rules for unlimited mana lying around on the internet and a recent supplement called Ritual Path Magic that seems to be well received; those might help as well.

Obviously I love GURPS, but if you wanted to go the Hero route there's a Bundle of Holding where you can get a collection of Hero system pdfs for around $17. There may be a way to build the magic system you want easier in Hero.

Dave - to sum up - Wheel of Time magic is so radically different than anything I've read in GURPS that it would be a chore to create a system from the ground up. My goal was to find a system that mirrored Wheel of Time magic without needing ridiculously high CP to attain any level of power. I don't know if I've given up on this project yet. But dang. There's a lot to change. Currently I'm running a d20 based system which works well for the magic but CRAP for the mainstream classes. I was wanting a grittier system for mainstream classes which gets away from number creep present in most (if not all) d20 systems. See below for long-winded explanation. Realm Magic comes the closest (Or perhaps Powers as Talents). But still - GURPS has nothing to compare power-wise to the magic in the Wheel of Time. And GURPS makes magic almost prohibitively expensive (hence the reason for my first question). For example - the main character (at a VERY early stage of development in the novels) was capable of crafting a spell that sent out hundreds, if not thousands, of lightning bolts striking and killing foes in all parts of a castle the size of a small mountain. And he still had energy to keep casting. Or - two women stood atop a tower 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile (if not a bit farther) from a battle and rained down lightning for several hours killing thousands of foes. A young caster in the Wheel of Time can use air to tie up and render helpless the most horrific of beasts (except for Gholems of course). To learn a new spell, one simply has to see it done. Once. A lowly caster who is just starting out can oversee a weave of UNIMAGINABLE power and remember it and, when they are strong enough, be able to cast it. Also - even if they aren't strong enough, they might be able to cast a reduced version of it. There is almost infinite variation of spells available as spells are based off of manipulating pure energy (in 5 forms - Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Spirit). These can be combined in varying ways for almost infinite results. An example of the awesome power available in Wheel of Time - Balefire - capable of decimating CITIES and DESTROYING THE ENTIRE WORLD!. One caster using Balefire can erase a person from existence and time. So - I was hoping to try and replicate this in GURPS while sticking relatively close to the rules. But it just doesn't seem to fit no matter how I look at it without characters needing ASTRONOMICALLY high CP to have a relatively adequate caster (compared to the books). The only solution I can come up with is: 1) Realm Magic or Powers as Talents 2) Magery up to level 10. 3) Reduce FP cost of spells to a 1-10 scale. 4) Allow ER to be bought and used as well as FP to power spells (a semi deviation from the Wheel of Time concept which ties magic strength more to HT than an arbitrary ER pool... but hey) 5) Use advantages for all casting feats (channeling feats) 6) Ignore modifiers for distance and potentially number of targets as well (or drastically increase the modifier table values) 7) Some addition of Threshold magic rules (as spellcasters in Wheel of Time did have a limit to how much they could do - it was just godlike) 8)??

Paul: From your description of the starting characters' power levels, you'd just have to start them at high point values. Killing everyone in a castle the size of a mountain with lightning or standing 3/4 of a mile away and raining attack lightning for hours is in extreme power ranges from the standpoint of traditional fantasy characters. You're talking about decimating cities and destroying the world, not being good at sword fighting. That guy should be built on superhuman CP, I'm thinking over 1000 minimum. You'll probably want to go with Realm or Ritual Path (I'd lean toward Realm), which are abstract and require a lot of on the fly judgment calls. Edit: The guy who can destroy the world and erase people from spacetime should probably be closer to 2000. More Edit: Point values can be made lower with some conditional disadvantages, if fresh magi make more mistakes, have to take longer to cast, or suffer something like Paradox (Mage the Ascension). The crux, however, is that characters with extreme abilities are worth extreme amounts of points. That's just how point-based systems work: you can make anything you want, but what you make is reflected in how much it costs.

I'd recommend checking SJ Games' forums. A lot of GURPS enthusiasts also like to collaborate on unofficial products, so you might find a system someone has already designed for GURPS.

Dickie is right; I forgot about that. Describe what you want and you'll get a page of character templates in half a day (followed by 4 pages of debates on modelling lightning damage inside a castle).

Thanks Howard. I am heavily leaning toward realm magic as well. Hard to GM but reflects the magic system a bit better than ritual/ceremonial/et al. That's what I was trying to avoid though - the ridiculously high CP. For non-caster characters it would seem insanely slanted. Granted - in this world casters are damn near demigods ... But one arrow can still kill them But anyone (ok not anyone, but quite a few) has the potential to be or become a channeler. Therefore, I'd have to leave open the possibility for folks who can "learn to channel". Not sure how to model that in CP. Grant everyone 2000 CP but if you're not a channeler then 1800 of that has to be reserved and can only be used to buy magery/spells/etc...? As for the "who can learn to channel" - I was thinking a secret GM roll 20%. It will take more thought - till then I'll continue on the d20 system and perhaps do an e5 or e8 to eliminate numbers creep but grant additional feats/lvl instead of BAB increases/lvl.

so characters begin with 200 points. levels of magery cost the same, they just give you massive amounts of power instead of the basic. level 1 spellcasting might cost 25 points, and give you 500 points worth of training and/or spells to allocate as they wish with the caveat of having to be applied to magic or mage training. limit this to 4 points of spellcasting, and your set - that 2000 points dedicated to magic, on an otherwise 100 point character.

I think I like this idea. I'll have to digest it. See what happens. Play test it a bit. THanks

I found the Wheel of Time Books fit pretty quite well in GURPS and GRUPS handled it very well by allowing magic schools as Bang skills. But requiring the "Talents" such as healing or gateway to be purchased individually to be truly mastered/master-able. Remember the setting as most of the big magic effects as tiring and Moraine was frequently fatigued when using her powers in the beginning. By the time the series concludes the main characters are over a thousand points, are routinely breaking the rules of magic and have access to sa'angreal with virtually infinite fatigue. If you are looking for the "perfect system" so to speak you may want to look at Fate Accelerated Edition as it allows the same setting to have both epic and trivial threats on the same character. I love Hero and consider it my favorite system overall, but would not recommend it for Wheel of Time. Most Hero Wheel of Time games need to use a Variable Power Pool to really nail it down and that can be tough for inexperienced players to use.

I would add, that no matter what point or level based game you try to use, the upper power ranges of the characters in wheel of time can be somewhat godlike and would be very high point or level.

Much as I love GURPS, if you're looking for a system where you could use your epic spell effects without actually having to model them, perhaps take a look at one of the more narrative, Indie systems? For example, if you were to use DramaSystem the effects of any spell, however dramatic, would be a sideshow to the real conflict in the scene, which is 'what's at stake?' and 'does my character achieve it?'

Thanks all. I'll take a look at Fate and DramaSystem. Just not quite there with GURPS. I've almost got it, but it is bending the rules so very much I feel I'm doing a discredit to GURPS.

In particular I would look at Fate Accelerated Edition. Built into it is a system that lets you adjust the scale and fits well with narrative systems like Wheel of Time which vary quite a bit from the early books to the latter books and have characters like Rand Al'thore who has all the knowledge and power of the most powerful Aes-sedie in history available for periodic cinematic moments of dues exmachina. Any point based system would have you making the basic hero and only GM fiat would allow the periodic epic spells. Perhaps Hero System would allow it as the following power to represent how the hero himself does not make the effect happen, but the narrative takes him over. 25 Dues-Exmachina: Variable Power Pool (The One-Power), 17 base + 100 control cost, (67 Active Points); all slots 1 Charge (-2), No Conscious Control (-2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1) character is reduced to 1 stun, 1 endurance and takes 1d6 body as he is drained and mentally taxed. It would cost 25 points fully 1/8th of a 200 point heros cost, but still works.

So Paul S I am curious what decision you ended up making?

Still working ... going basically with the concept of a 150 point-buy for all starting characters and allowing purchase of advantages as characters progress. These advantages will give access to the power (magery levels 1-9) and also to elemental aspects of the power (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit). Each aspect will have 5 levels. Spells will be rated on 1-9 lvls with corresponding minimum magery lvl required Aspects of the power will act as modifiers for spells. If a spell has Fire and Earth and the player has Fire 3 and Earth 0 the net modifier will be +2. This is for determining spell success, DC, and damage. Females start out at -2 on both Earth and Fire. Males start out at -2 on Air and Water. They must buy these skills up to reduce negative to 0 but can still use the powers. Magery is bought as normal. Your magery lvl is added to base 10 to determine new stat Power. Have a list of "spells" but will allow free-flow spell crafting (still working on some base levels for determining custom spells' levels: range, damage, # targets, etc...). All spells must be learned by seeing it cast first or by inventing the spell (time constraints normal per GURPS for creating new spells) So, by allowing players to buy advantages, they can essentially "advance" their character. This will be allowed for non-casters as well. That way both categories will get to feel the effects of character advancement. Separate Talents for Healing/Greater and some other unique uses of the power. Everyone will have access, but buying Talents will allow more powerful heals/etc... Oh - NO ... and I mean NO buying points through flaws.

"NO buying points through flaws." Will your characters have no disadvantages at all, or are you making them take some but with no cost benefit?

For epic magic, I highly recommend Ars Magica. The system is logical, flexible and easily scales to spells that have city wide aoe effects. You would obviously have to rework the setting, but the magic system fits your goals out of the box, without the tweaking GURPS would need.

Spyke said: "NO buying points through flaws." Will your characters have no disadvantages at all, or are you making them take some but with no cost benefit? I don't agree with buying disadvantages for extra CP. If a PC wants a character to have disadvantages fine. But it should be a RP thing. Too often folks buy disadvantages for extra CP and then don't RP with those disadvantages. SO ... yeah. They can RP disadvantages and I award CP for good RP.

Joseph Z. said: For epic magic, I highly recommend Ars Magica. The system is logical, flexible and easily scales to spells that have city wide aoe effects. You would obviously have to rework the setting, but the magic system fits your goals out of the box, without the tweaking GURPS would need. And Ars Magica 4th edition has the advantage of being free: <a href="http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204" rel="nofollow">http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=AG0204</a>

Paul S. said: Spyke said: "NO buying points through flaws." Will your characters have no disadvantages at all, or are you making them take some but with no cost benefit? I don't agree with buying disadvantages for extra CP. If a PC wants a character to have disadvantages fine. But it should be a RP thing. Too often folks buy disadvantages for extra CP and then don't RP with those disadvantages. SO ... yeah. They can RP disadvantages and I award CP for good RP. OK, nice way to handle it. I do it the other way up - threaten to hold back CP awards to buy off disadvantages not being played, but with my usual players I'm lucky in that this doesn't really happen. If anything, the disadvantages are the things they roleplay to the hilt!

Just downloaded Ars Magica and am reading up. Interesting concept of playing several characters at once and rotating Story Tellers.

For epic magic, I highly recommend Ars Magica. The system is logical, flexible and easily scales to spells that have city wide aoe effects. You would obviously have to rework the setting, but the magic system fits your goals out of the box, without the tweaking GURPS would need.

Ars magica is good stuff, yup.