Our God in the Realms

When I first approached Mark about adding Yahweh/Christ to the campaign, we tossed back and forth some ideas and started rolling with an idea. We probably weren't very clear on it, so here it is in a nutshell. We wanted to role play his introduction and build on it, not just wave a wand and make him and thousands of followers appear. I created a character, who had found a damaged Bible, and became a sort of John the Baptist character. Ao and the tablets of fate would be introduced as Yahweh and the Bible. We would include finding missing portions of the Bible to finish God's perfect word. And thus leading to a day of Pentecost type event. As far as I know, myself and Mark are the only ones to include any of that. Right now, our church really doesn't have enough followers for a faction, unless we ditch the role play approach and wave the magic wand. I think it is a story, maybe The Story, that is worth spending the time to flesh out and make epic. I will post more here on this topic and invite you all to as well. 

Great idea I would like to see what type of adventures are created to find these missing pieces, whether we go to a different plane or head to a village where a widow has a missing piece. This might be fun.

I am using it immensely. I even have the piety system in place for any who wish to follow Yeshua (Jesus). The problem I have found is that gradually making him appear now makes no sense as he would have had always had a remnant. Converting Ao into Christ conflicts as well because Ao was impersonal and uncaring of most of creation. Quote from Forgotten Realms Wiki: "Ao did not want to be known, for cults once dedicated to him only a decade ago began to die out, and Ao's name disappeared from written records. What went on in Toril and what the other deities did were of no concern to Ao, as long as the deities upheld their individual portfolios and did not completely ignore their worshipers." It also defines Ao as True Neutral. I have found problems in including Christ in campaigns as unless one does wave the wand and include him, the gradual input never would make sense. (Unless you changed the scriptures). I for one will always continue trying to include Christ and the primary purpose of  joining was because we let Christ influence us both in game, and out of game for the better. Love it here and will stay for as long as we keep Christ as prime focus. I love Mark's idea for a day of fellowship and study so that we can build each other up and support each other through struggles.

The beginning of our story is thus. Brother Knuckles Randal Traine was the eldest son of a tavern wench named Moira Traine. He grew up on the streets of Waterdeep. As a youth, Randal, with his brother Vincent, began to lead a street gang, called the gray goblins. Prospective members not only had to prove their skills, but also had to learn the goblin language. The gang eventually joined up with a larger thieves guild in the area, and as natural brawlers, Randal and Vincent became lead "enforcers". One of their victims offered them a priceless book, to save himself from a beating. After much pleading on the shop-keep's part and threat from the thugs if it didn't pan out, the boys left with the book. Thinking to cash in on their luck, the brothers kept the book for themselves. The book was badly damaged, only part of it was legible, but the boys had heard that scholars would pay big money for an unknown book, that would allow them entry into the great library of Candlekeep. The two would-be entrepreneurs found a down-on-his-luck wizard to examine it. The wizard found a charm on it that, when activated, had a tongues affect on the book, allowing anyone to read it in their native tongue. For the next few nights the boys began reading what they could of the tome. It had a profound affect on both boys. Both young men changed completely. It was as if a new person had taken over their bodies. They turned from their life of crime so suddenly, that their gang, stunned, let them depart without a hassle. The boys went back to the shop where they had gotten the book, only to find the owner gone. A note was left, which read, in part "Good luck with that worthless book. I hope you found a wizard that fried you for wasting his time". In a move that stunned their neighbors, the watch, and their former assosiates, Vincent joined the guard, eventually becoming a paladin of the God in the book. Randal, however, became a cleric and street preacher. He preaches the love of an Unknown God, whom some think may be Ao, himself. In addition to his ministry, Randal has started a soup kitchen out of a ramshackle wagon. Some of his followers, help serve, while he preaches. Not having left his old skills to go to waste, he has led the fight to put down several would-be street gangs, earning him the nickname Brother Knuckles. Showing an equal measure of sternness and compassion, he has lead many a would be thug to the love of the Unknown God. Brother Knuckles is a large man with beefy fists and broad shoulders. He keeps his dark hair cropped close and has dark eyes. His nose has been broken and reset poorly, he has several scars, including some small facial scars, and he has over-sized knuckles from his years of brawling. He has an infectious smile, and is usually very gentle, getting angry only when his community is in danger, or his God is slandered. At such times, he is a force to be reckoned with. GM Notes Randal "Brother Knuckles" Traine actually has a badly damaged copy of the Bible. The only intact books he has are Genesis, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Isaiah, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians. He has been given to know, by the spirit, that there are other copies of the missing books in Faerun. He desperately seeks to find these. He has a group of scribes, that have devoted themselves to making copies of his bible in common. He has a criminal contact, Sten, who is a member of the thieves guild. The thieves guild that he broke away from, have officially called a truce with him after Randal sent a few to the medic and one to the morgue, but the occasional tough, trying to make a name for himself, may still try to attack the cleric. Mark's crew found a lost book in undermountain, but that is his story to tell

Regan C. said: I am using it immensely. I even have the piety system in place for any who wish to follow Yeshua (Jesus). The problem I have found is that gradually making him appear now makes no sense as he would have had always had a remnant. Converting Ao into Christ conflicts as well because Ao was impersonal and uncaring of most of creation. Quote from Forgotten Realms Wiki: "Ao did not want to be known, for cults once dedicated to him only a decade ago began to die out, and Ao's name disappeared from written records. What went on in Toril and what the other deities did were of no concern to Ao, as long as the deities upheld their individual portfolios and did not completely ignore their worshipers." It also defines Ao as True Neutral. I will try to address your points in order. 1. I meant adding to the story of inclusion. I do realize you have started a regulatory behavior system based on it. 2. I never said he wasn't always there. Remember, God was silent for 400 years before He sent John the Baptist. 3. Before Christ, much of the world's population may have thought the same thing about God, as most of his direct interaction was only with the Israelites. That also covers the alignment perception. 4. As far as the unanswered cults, God can only be worshipped in spirit and truth. The only prayer, I believe, that God listens to from an unsaved person is the prayer of salvation. It will work, if we want it to work. It's our story to tell. Anyone else have any thoughts?

You could run a campaign to find the rest of the bible. Your quest giver could be the priest or hidden words in the bible itself. Maybe is was hidden due to persecution reasons. 

I agree with all the points you stated. I thought that we would need a Christian faction (which I am still creating whether we allow it or not because I have spent time in creating it already lol) for the upcoming Christian soldiers to have a place in. Their goals would be slightly different from the normal church in that they would also seek to fight against spiritual and physical evils, in addition to spreading the gospel. This was the scripture as the basis of wanting to create a faction as a base of operations separate from the world's other factions, but still able to witness to them. 2 Corinthians 6:15-17 15 What agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s sanctuary have with idols? For we are the sanctuary of the living God, as God said: I will dwell among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 17 Therefore, come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord; do not touch any unclean thing, and I will welcome you.

Great stuff.  I think Cilarnen (Regan's PC) has one of the tablets. I used a CRAZY magic item roll that resulted in a Tome of Understanding which gives a permanent increase in wisdom once every 100 years. After used, it was given to Cilarnen who now carries the tablet that contains the Book of Proverbs. 

Regan C. said: I agree with all the points you stated. I thought that we would need a Christian faction (which I am still creating whether we allow it or not because I have spent time in creating it already lol) for the upcoming Christian soldiers to have a place in.  Agreed! That's why I voted not yet, rather than no. :) And I guess if we use 2 Corinthians to establish it, someone needs to find it, lol!

I think it's easy. The humans here on Thorill (place all the stories take place) were once Earthlings, there could be some real Christians with bibles brought over when a bunch of them were.

Well, I just misunderstood how you wanted to go about it. Im ok with changing my current knights RP and just have his story more centered on working with Knuckles instead of being in an established order if you like. A Campaign for the rest of the book would be awesome, and I would like for my pally to be involved.

No worries. Like I said we weren't real clear on what we had in mind before it got loose. It wasn't official or anything. We just thought it would be cool. For the record, any dm can use Knuckles to get the ball rolling on this. If I can help, or fill in some blanks, let me know. I know that 3 of our DMs have already met him. He is listed in my npcs. We may want to raise his level at some point. The next thing I had for him was to witness to that goblin tribe that you guys found in the sea cave with the slavers. I thought a Christian goblin tribe would be a neat addition.

Daniel S. said: You could run a campaign to find the rest of the bible. Your quest giver could be the priest or hidden words in the bible itself. Maybe is was hidden due to persecution reasons.  Michael S. said: Great idea I would like to see what type of adventures are created to find these missing pieces, whether we go to a different plane or head to a village where a widow has a missing piece. This might be fun. That's exactly the kinds of things I think we should do. There's a lot of places in the realms to explore, filled with all manner of danger and interesting npcs. You may meet the Harpells in longsaddle, talk to grandfather tree deep in high forest, or fight undead and dinosaurs in Chult. The world we're playing in is a lot bigger than just Waterdeep. That's just our jumping off point. Any of these places could hold a book, or part of a book of the Bible. Rumors abound as God makes his presence known in the dock ward of Waterdeep.. 

I was just showing my wife all of my old maps of FR today pointing out some of the really interesting place I have adventured and also DMed. I think it would be cool if the tablets were spread out; especially if they were in places that might even fit. For example, 1 and 2 Kings could be located in Mulhorand. The Mulhorandi were brought to Toril from Earth by the Imaskar Empire looking for some manpower. It is probably because of this, that Mulhorand is very similar to ancient Egypt. The Mulhorandi even look Egyptian (see the human Mulan race).and mainly worship the Egyptian deity Horus-Re.  Most of the Mulhorandi are slaves so it would appear as though there was some kind of Stargate (but magical) thing going on between Earth and Toril at some point. Mulhorand was destroyed during the Spellplague so adventuring there might even have some kind of apocalyptic feeling. I should probably not say anymore and let anything else just be a surprise in case someone decides to run with this. Just finding the possibilities very interesting though.

It would be ironic if exodus was found there, lol

Any cleric or paladin that starts in Waterdeep can receive a copy of Knuckles' Bible, which includes Genesis, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Isaiah, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians. If Regan's character brings his copy of Proverbs to Knuckles, he will have his scribes include it. Knuckles' original copy will transfer the tongues charm to your copy, so that anyone can read it in their language. That is the only ability of the charm. Your copy of the scripture can be used as your holy symbol/focus. Also, at higher levels, these early characters will probably become the future church leaders/hierarchy. 

Mix said: It would be ironic if exodus was found there, lol Oh man... I didn't think of that book. Hmm... sounds like maybe many of the early books would be appropriate to find there. Exodus sounds the best though. lol

Just wanted to pop in to say: I didn't like the idea of putting God in the game as a diety; makes Him seem like any other deity from D&D, I guess. Plus, I didn't know how to have my characters interact with them; the way my current character is, I don't feel he'd ever join.. BUT, I love what you guys have been discussing now that it's been fleshed out a bit and would love to see The Unity of Knuckles' Bible as a huge questline. 

He cannot be just another deity as it would remove him as God of all and only true God.

He is not a diety but the npcs can see him as one right?

you know, he brought up an interesting point though that would need to be addressed:  in the game itself (and this being purely for RP reasons), the followers of the deities do recognize the existence of the others, whereas, as you pointed out, ingame the religion of Yahweh, following our belief, would be that there is no other beside or above him, however they would need to have some response to the other deities (seeing as how there is a cleric ability that literally involves one of the deities stepping in directly to do something, let alone planes of existence) it will be hard to say the same thing we do in the real world, namely that they of course do not -actually- exist to begin with... but in-game they would exist, to an extent.  so in that case there is only ever 3 options... he's either below, the same, or above the other deities.  taking that he, of course, is far above the others, then I would say the philosophy, at least, would be that the other deities may in fact exist, however they were also created by Yahweh, for any number of possible reasons, maybe to carry out the various duties of the world? (like, they are responsible for the cosmic properties of the world the same way we were made stewards of various parts of the world itself, much the same way as if bill gates directly tells Microsoft to build Skynet, we would say that bill gates built Skynet, since he was the one that was in charge and ordered it to be done, not microsoft) anyway, just an idea.  the religion of yahweh and the whole idea with the introduction of the bible is a cool idea none-the-less though.

deity ˈdēədē,ˈdāədē/ noun  a god or goddess (in a polytheistic religion). polytheism ˈpälēTHēˌizəm/ noun  the belief in or worship of more than one god. Many Jews and Christians "believe in" more than one god in the sense that they exist. For example, I am a polytheistic in that I recognize Mammon and others as gods that men worship. Many of us see these gods as nothing but mere idols. The first of the 10 commandments acknowledges other gods and went on to talk about idol worship.  1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  That verse does not state that there are no other gods, but that none of them should be before God.  We understand that God is the most High God and therefore the only one worthy of our praise and worship.  This is really just a tidbit of a much longer study that can help to expose those things that we should not make idols in our own lives.  In the fantasy setting, these "gods" are given more detail as beings that exist according to legend or myth.  Every player here, despite what their character might believe, believes that our God is the most High God. I think that is what matters the most. I am excited to see where the quest of finding the other books will take us. 

Describing something as a “god” does not mean you believe it to be a divine being. The vast majority of Old Testament Scriptures which speak of gods are speaking of false gods, those who claim to be gods but are not. This concept is summarized in 2 Kings 19:18 : “They have thrown their gods into the fire and destroyed them, for they were not gods but only wood and stone, fashioned by men's hands.”

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”

I would like to get a little something off my chest relating to this conversation, so forgive me if I seem a little blunt. This started because some of us like running clerics and paladins, but had a problem, as Christians, fantasizing about following pagan gods. We tried to come up with a fun and inclusive way to do it. This is by no means mandatory. If you don't want to participate and have no qualms with the system as it was, that's cool. Feel free to use it, but please don't nitpick the rest of us for trying to develop this idea. 

My apologies for derailing your thread, Mix. The 'negative' part of my post was meant to convey contrast in that I was unsure of the entire concept initially, but you've done such a good job developing it that I'd love in on a campaign if one happens. Sorry if I started a debate..

No worries! Just blowing off a little steam.

Albert said: you know, he brought up an interesting point though that would need to be addressed:  in the game itself (and this being purely for RP reasons), the followers of the deities do recognize the existence of the others, whereas, as you pointed out, ingame the religion of Yahweh, following our belief, would be that there is no other beside or above him, however they would need to have some response to the other deities (seeing as how there is a cleric ability that literally involves one of the deities stepping in directly to do something, let alone planes of existence) it will be hard to say the same thing we do in the real world, namely that they of course do not -actually- exist to begin with... but in-game they would exist, to an extent.  so in that case there is only ever 3 options... he's either below, the same, or above the other deities.  taking that he, of course, is far above the others, then I would say the philosophy, at least, would be that the other deities may in fact exist, however they were also created by Yahweh, for any number of possible reasons, maybe to carry out the various duties of the world? (like, they are responsible for the cosmic properties of the world the same way we were made stewards of various parts of the world itself, much the same way as if bill gates directly tells Microsoft to build Skynet, we would say that bill gates built Skynet, since he was the one that was in charge and ordered it to be done, not microsoft) anyway, just an idea.  the religion of Yahweh and the whole idea with the introduction of the bible is a cool idea none-the-less though. What you are quoting here is Henotheism. Henotheism: the belief in multiple gods with one supreme God over all. While sound philosophically; Christianity is known to be Monotheistic. Monotheism: the belief in one true God who is the only creator, sustainer, and judge of all creation. It would be interesting to say that the other deities are all demons in disguise meant to lead people astray. There is a small guide in the DMG in how to determine whether your campaign is Monotheistic, Henotheistic, Polytheistic, etc.., but the base DnD campaign has mostly been polytheistic or henotheistic.

ah gotcha... well, like I said, was only an idea.  to be honest I never even heard of that term before, so... guess I learned something new today.  anyway, was just trying to help, sorry. didn't meant to derail/start debates. my apologies.

This is something that should be discussed it lets us know what type of religions there used to be and what Christianity religion is. preferably it would be on the accord voice chat. If anyone is brave enough to organize a discussion on the history of Christianity should start it.

Michael S. said: This is something that should be discussed it lets us know what type of religions there used to be and what Christianity religion is. preferably it would be on the accord voice chat. If anyone is brave enough to organize a discussion on the history of Christianity should start it. That would make for a good study. It is OK for people to express their concerns. However, I hope that everyone sees that the DMs have put a lot of thought into this. :) Personally, I really like the direction it is going and want to see it continue moving forward. Like Mix said awhile back, "Let's put Christ into Gamer's for Christ." 

The realms in general has been henotheistic, which may explain why Ao has not answered any followers. Knuckles believes that the gods, are not gods at all, just powerful beings. Proof of this lies in the fact that midnight, kelemvor, and cyric were all humans, before their ascension. He believes that there is only one true God, and these beings, some possibly unintentionally, have usurped the creators position among men. Most importantly he knows what God did for him. He has no disillusions of his former state. He follows a simple doctrine. One commission: free the captives by leading others to the saving power of Christ. One commandment above all: Love, love the Lord thy God with all that you are, and love others as yourself.

Mix said: The realms in general has been henotheistic, which may explain why Ao has not answered any followers. Knuckles believes that the gods, are not gods at all, just powerful beings. Proof of this lies in the fact that midnight, kelemvor, and cyric were all humans, before their ascension. He believes that there is only one true God, and these beings, some possibly unintentionally, have usurped the creators position among men. Most importantly he knows what God did for him. He has no disillusions of his former state. He follows a simple doctrine. One commission: free the captives by leading others to the saving power of Christ. One commandment above all: Love, love the Lord thy God with all that you are, and love others as yourself. Interesting concept, I guess the differences will be noticed when we compare intervention from one of these beings with God's intervention lol. Now the long wait to level 10 "sigh".

So, God can only be real in the realms, if his followers get tactical advantages over other deitys followers?

Mix said: So, God can only be real in the realms, if his followers get tactical advantages over other deitys followers? No, but it would make sense for him as he would be Omnipotent and they would not be, he also does not always intervene in the way a believer expects, which could mean when you ask him to smite your foes and destroy them, he may want you to witness to them so he makes them sleep instead. It may be that he wants you to fail if you are going against his will, and would allow the defeat to be the discipline (death is not the result of discipline).

Also remember, a lot of early church members were martyred, and did not go against God's will. Job, also did nothing wrong. I was just wondering if that's where you were going with that. The early church had very little earthly power, but grew by leaps and bounds.

Mix said: Also remember, a lot of early church members were martyred, and did not go against God's will. Job, also did nothing wrong. I was just wondering if that's where you were going with that. The early church had very little earthly power, but grew by leaps and bounds. Exactly, we may have been known by many for the miracles, but we are and were hated by the message we proclaim. I am just saying that if our God has decided to aid us directly (divine intervention), then it would prevail over every false deities aid. Other than that he aids us all the time through strength, courage, and other invisible acts that I am happy and grateful to him for.

This is an interesting thing that you have brought up.  I am wondering if there is a way to implement the perks based on the books that are recovered. Maybe martyrdom might even be a thing in the realms as well. I don't see why others would not be threatened by the introduction of the Messiah, Christ, the Lord.  This gives me an idea for a perk that is based on the life of Apostle Paul. I figure this is the right place to post it, so I am thinking something like... Philippians 1:23-24 If you are killed , you will be raised no more than 3 days after the incident. The effect works as if a true resurrection spell has been cast on you. You may only benefit from this perk twice before going on to be with the Lord. Additionally, if you take this perk, you may not be brought back from the dead by other means other than revivify .  I really like the idea of the perks doing something that has happened to someone in scripture. Thoughts?

Is This in just one campaign that you guys are playing in or can it be kind of spread out between campaigns you know. I have a halfling who is a spoiled and egotistacil brat mabye he somehow finds  Philippians 2:3 "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves." and maybe even grow to be selfless. :/ 

I think the idea is to spread it out. Some of the books have been recovered. Proverbs was found in Undermountain by my group. Others have been recovered in other games. It is up to the DMs when and how they are discovered.

Mark S. said: This is an interesting thing that you have brought up.  I am wondering if there is a way to implement the perks based on the books that are recovered. Maybe martyrdom might even be a thing in the realms as well. I don't see why others would not be threatened by the introduction of the Messiah, Christ, the Lord.  This gives me an idea for a perk that is based on the life of Apostle Paul. I figure this is the right place to post it, so I am thinking something like... Philippians 1:23-24 If you are killed , you will be raised no more than 3 days after the incident. The effect works as if a true resurrection spell has been cast on you. You may only benefit from this perk twice before going on to be with the Lord. Additionally, if you take this perk, you may not be brought back from the dead by other means other than revivify .  I really like the idea of the perks doing something that has happened to someone in scripture. Thoughts? I like it

Regan C. said: Mark S. said: This is an interesting thing that you have brought up.  I am wondering if there is a way to implement the perks based on the books that are recovered. Maybe martyrdom might even be a thing in the realms as well. I don't see why others would not be threatened by the introduction of the Messiah, Christ, the Lord.  This gives me an idea for a perk that is based on the life of Apostle Paul. I figure this is the right place to post it, so I am thinking something like... Philippians 1:23-24 If you are killed , you will be raised no more than 3 days after the incident. The effect works as if a true resurrection spell has been cast on you. You may only benefit from this perk twice before going on to be with the Lord. Additionally, if you take this perk, you may not be brought back from the dead by other means other than revivify .  I really like the idea of the perks doing something that has happened to someone in scripture. Thoughts? Interesting sounds like a replacement for either the Feet or the Belt. I like it either way.

Just kind of throwing ideas out there. lol  These things could be kind of like mantles too. For example, the mantle of Elijah could maybe cause flame strike  (fire from heaven) if the conditions are met. Sorry, I have just been on a faction/perk kick lately. lol They are especially fun to think about when they are related to people in the bible. :)

Mix said: Any cleric or paladin that starts in Waterdeep can receive a copy of Knuckles' Bible, which includes Genesis, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Isaiah, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians. If Regan's character brings his copy of Proverbs to Knuckles, he will have his scribes include it. Knuckles' original copy will transfer the tongues charm to your copy, so that anyone can read it in their language. That is the only ability of the charm. Your copy of the scripture can be used as your holy symbol/focus. Also, at higher levels, these early characters will probably become the future church leaders/hierarchy.  I have a Bard with Acolyte background that I'll hopefully be playing today. He'll likely cross-class into Cleric pretty early on, but is merely an Acolyte of Oghma for now.. Would you mind if he got a copy? Follow up question: I'll likely cross into a Knowledge Cleric, but if he reads Knuckles' Bible and converts, would I need to change my domain? Have we established what Domains Yahweh is? Knowledge would still make sense, but Life seems glaringly obvious. Lastly, IF I do convert domains, previous editions would have me lose my previous Cleric abilities and then gain the ones from the new domain upon completing a quest for atonement; any idea on 5E conversions?

Vinyacoire said: Mix said: Any cleric or paladin that starts in Waterdeep can receive a copy of Knuckles' Bible, which includes Genesis, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Isaiah, John, Acts, Romans, and 1st Corinthians. If Regan's character brings his copy of Proverbs to Knuckles, he will have his scribes include it. Knuckles' original copy will transfer the tongues charm to your copy, so that anyone can read it in their language. That is the only ability of the charm. Your copy of the scripture can be used as your holy symbol/focus. Also, at higher levels, these early characters will probably become the future church leaders/hierarchy.  I have a Bard with Acolyte background that I'll hopefully be playing today. He'll likely cross-class into Cleric pretty early on, but is merely an Acolyte of Oghma for now.. Would you mind if he got a copy? Follow up question: I'll likely cross into a Knowledge Cleric, but if he reads Knuckles' Bible and converts, would I need to change my domain? Have we established what Domains Yahweh is? Knowledge would still make sense, but Life seems glaringly obvious. Lastly, IF I do convert domains, previous editions would have me lose my previous Cleric abilities and then gain the ones from the new domain upon completing a quest for atonement; any idea on 5E conversions? Pretty Much Yahweh is God over everything so all domains except death (maybe arcana?) would probably be ok?

Yes vinyacore, your character can receive a copy, and as Regan said, he would not switch domains. However, if you did switch to life, you would lose all your knowledge domain abilities