Teamwork & Planning

"Perhaps after the fight, you guys should take this as a sign to sit down and really discuss tactics and strategy, and consider how to best use your resources... the party is getting stronger, and that means you can face stronger enemies too, but you all haven't really started to work as a team yet. You've also gathered a fair bit of magical treasure that's just sitting in your inventories untested and unused, while you're losing people left and right. I try to give a lot of hints, but I'm also fair with the results of the party's decisions: if you ignore useful things, it'll eventually lead to deaths. For example: why do you have have 2 healing classes but only one of them has any healing spells prepared? Why doesn't Kraggan at least have the healing scrolls from Baldrik prepped and ready for an emergency like this? When you have 2 arcane casters, why aren't either of them trying to use that wand you found? Why doesn't anyone listen when the leader you elected gives a command in battle? Why are you fighting a difficult battle on terrain that you know is extremely hard to fight on? Bear in mind, I'm not trying to scold you or anything. I'm just saying that adventuring is dangerous, and if you guys don't seriously plan and prepare as you delve deeper into the Catacombs, you may not survive to REACH Waterwend." -Max (just wanted to be clear of the source lol)

Share your ideas here. We need to work on resource management , Dewen a cleric that can heal should not be holding all of the healing scrolls and potions. the next time we get ambushed in the boat don't drop the oar to attack a monster, row us to land, This one creature is destroying us because of this squeezing effect. 

Did something go wrong on Sunday? I had to miss the session and a recap would be nice. Who died this time?

theres an option near the join game button called content, it contains a chat archive containing everything that has happened in game. we got ambushed by a creature called "choker: it has long arms and can deal a lot of damage if it grapples you, would've been a simple fight if we were not in the boat where we get a effect squeezing -4 ac an -4 hit chance, to make matters worse it dragged a couple of unconscious people off the boat where they started to drown, kraggan had to jump in to save them.

Ooh... not a fun time, I'll look over the chat logs to see what else happened when I get a chance.

I agree we should plan some strategies in our off time here.

Agreed, though there are pros and cons to this as well. Pros are that we're mainly on the same boat when we fight, if we have a set thing. but, also means we're bad at adapting to circumstances. mainly because each time, our initiatives are different, and sometimes it requires people to make sudden decisions on their own, without waiting for the entire team to get on the same page. like this time, i rolled a 21, and the monster got a surprise turn as well.  Dewen took a hit, and i had to make a decision to either attack the thing, or start rowing, coz no one else had moved yet, and there was no plan. 50/50 chance of my decision being what everyone jumps in on. so, i took the shot, dewen took a shot, and then valern started rowing. the monster went next, and pushed dewen into the water, Kraggan and Adria jumped in next, if i had started rowing then, we'd have left all three behind, so i took another decision to stay and fight. yes i am sorry it turned out so bad, but i decided to stay and fight for the team. while i do agree that we need a plan, our plan also needs to be flexible enough, to make room for circumstances. slightly unfair that this entire thing gets pinned on me not rowing me, valern and the rest away, and leave Dewen and Kraggan behind.

In Response to the stuff Sam O. put in the game chat- 1. the raft to tow loot idea has its pros an cons, it might have prevented squeezing but it would leave all or most of our loot in a seperate ship the could be cut lose or sunk with us being unable to defend it. 2. yes it did get shut down quickly, we had multiply people doing a lot of different things at the end of a session it was distracting    -Leoavor trying to save kobolds for interrogation    - Gathering the kobolds loot ( I think we forgot the scale mail one had and most of the weapons)    -then we found the kid and the egg    - Zeke made a fishing net with the bodies ( I don't think anyone bothered to try and harvest that before we left.)    -Baldrikks death and trying to hand out his items to the party A Lot of stuff got looked over, So I suggest the next time we come to a situation like that we work out a quick list of priorities       1. all the enemies dead?       2. anyone need healed?       3. Loot       4. other stuff? 3. The rope deserved it ( I will with hold any more pranks until we are in a safe town or city) 4. light is a problem, we've burned through half of the torches Valern made at the woods.      -next time we get the chance to make torches, maybe more people should chip in, Valern made 24ish by himself      - I don't think we're anywhere near the exit of the caves or a town (but I wouldnt know.) 5. the boat does have items for minor leak repairs (Tar) but nothing for huge cracks or breaks (wood planks/nails/hammer)   -open to suggestions cause we're screwed with out the boat (at least untill we get town) I highly suggest conversion to a land based operation the second we can buy a wagon and some horses. 6. Planing for eventualities,   I like to rp ,thats why i play this game, But i don't want to do a whole 6 hour session of planing     -so post your ideas here its what this forum was made for and then we can play it off as something discussed during camp or off time a.) Here's and idea for more structure in the party    its all good and well to have a leader decide our general course and objectives-kraggan     but we need someone good at battle tactics to lead us in a fight- ?         Someone to manage our money (spliting the gold evenly is all nice and stuff, but effective management of funds is important)- I nominate myself (already have plans for a donkey/cart that can carry up to 1500 pounds, and thats only with minimum funds 30g, with a party fund  {A donkey or mule would be a good idea. In fact, a lot of parties bring a whole group of support hirelings on expeditions. Such parties typically include a cook, groom, entertainer, forager, laborer, teamster, and lackey , and 3-6 mercenaries with a mercenary leader . They also bring a wagon for supplies (and riding on) pulled by 2-4 heavy horses , as well as 1-2 packmules and 1-2 guard/hunting dogs . They each provide various types of mechanical bonuses and useful assistance.  (this is from  Max we have a lot of PMs, I am still newish to DnD) at the minimum thats about 1 gold 7 silver/ day for the hirelings (assuming they don't ask for more) with one time cost of 501 gold for the wagon/ animals (my minor calculations) renting a wagon and animals is also an option but i don't like renting } any other important party positions? share, communication is key  I don't blame Drusillia, we're learning and this isn't the first or last mistake that will be made.    

Idea The party is heading towards a chapel to Tiamet (5 headed dragon) we've already slain a few of her followers and gained some stuff the may be useful for most of these plans Leoavor is key since he's the only one who know Draconic we could potentially trade the kobold prisoners and the egg for a flower, simple and straight forward We could attempt to lure some of the kobolds out by    -having Leoavor wear the full plate, the shield with tiamat painted , and a sword carrying one of our chests of coin   - have him walk to the chapel claiming to be a friend/ knight to Tiamat with gifts in the boat and the chest is the first and that help would be needed to move the other stuff   -Lure a few kobolds back to our boat where we ambush them Zeke Could attempt to sneak in find the flowers and get out. this is all under the presumption the flowers are in the chapel and not simple located near by

(lol I didn't make a net out of the bodies I had started making it out of wood and vines when we were in the outside section. I DID use the bodies for bait though. Also... that rope had a family.)  I could try sneaking in but I don't think I would live through it. Don't they see in the dark? Also probably a lot of magical alarms and traps and I'm just 1st level. I mean I don't mind going ahead a bit but would prefer the party close behind me for when I fail one of the many rolls I would likely have to make. Need to think about the environment and possible problems we will face. Then buy things. We could set up supply drops of food and torches and maybe even a spare boat hidden along the route we take so when we need more stuff we can backtrack just to a supply point rather than all the way back to town. Maybe hire some guards just to camp and guard the stuff and/or hide it really well.  We can try to find a few Continual Flame items or have them made. 50 gold in ruby dust just as a component plus whatever the mage charges. We wouldn't have to carry oil lanterns and torches. (Except a few for the just in case dispel magic that whacks them) Also I may have enough for a bow now once we sell stuff and split so I can help with ranged attacks when that is better than sneak attacking melee or when melee is impossible etc. With Valern gone we have no fighters. Hopefully we can recruit Doran from the other group along with Joshua's guy whichever he brings in. Hard to have a battle plan when most are squishy but maybe the fighter if he comes and the ghoul and the clerics in their heavy armor in the center while me and the monk swing wide to flank or circle around to take out spell casters or ranged annoyances. Druid and wizard or wizards behind to focus on dropping large groups of cannon fodder or focus fire on stronger enemies or leaders.

Interesting points everybody, I agree that we should think up flexible strategies, and that a lot of these things are left to chance in who gets highest in the initiative roll. However, I also want to say that Kraggan did order a retreat before the monster attacked at the beginning of initiative. Drusilia isn't blamed for what happened. Things went badly and went downhill due to multiple decisions. Other players have all made mistakes in every battle we have fought, we are still a level 1 &2 party getting used to each other. Kraggan couldn't do much in combat because I decided to rescue 2 players lives that we needed. I was only able to step in and finish Shakir's work killing the thing at the very end. However, being on the oars is not only a inconvenient roleplay device it is also a key position, which is why the DM doesn't allow afk people to do it. We need to have the understanding in place from this point forward that those on the oars are by default supposed to get us to some landfall in combat. Due to the squeezing nature of the boat, if someone tries to attack a rower other players should have AOOs to weaken it and hopefully let the rower do their task. I am not a new player, and though I haven't played in a while I do have some experience. Kraggan's sole responsibility shouldn't be navigation and loot division, you are right, but up until now all players have wanted to continue moving at every opportunity and not roleplay in session about strategies. I think this group is a great solution to that. Also, Joshua with Valern dead, in game I don't know if our characters would trust whoever your new character will be enough to immediately make them leader. Kraggan wouldn't. It is also her quest that she gathered party members to accomplish so she will want a say in keeping the party focused on that. Joshua I want to address your points and strategy options. 1. I feel that a raft to stow loot will not solve the issue due to the size of our party. From day 1, conditions in the boat have been considered squeezing simply due to numbers of players. Unless we are down to 3 player and no stuff, squeezing will continue AND our stuff would be at risk. I vote no on the raft thing. Anyone else have an opinion? 2. Yes, things got left out during wrap up. I think we should also consider a thread like this one for loot division and general wrap up that doesn't need to be done in gameplay. Leoavor trying to save kobolds for interrogation is in game roleplay, but then we had to take it with us when he couldn't play next session. It is a loose end, but an interesting theory for the trade at the chapel. When gathering the kobolds loot, we left the scale mail and most of the weapons. I believe I remember the DM mentioning low quality and no one took interest. Then we got distracted by the kid and the egg, but we still haven't dealt with those either, even now. Any ideas? We have a hostage, a kid, and an egg that doesn't seem to be a kobold egg... Just keep them tied up for now? Zeke made a fishing net with the bodies, but wasn't there to check on it.  I don't think the issue is no one bothered to try and harvest that, but that with so many things, no one remembered it existed. We have to up our game there, or maybe players should get a notepad and we should take notes because going back in the long long chat log can be cumbersome. Baldriks death needed to be handled in game, but next time we should hand out items to the party from dead members in the Loot Thread. 3. Light is a problem sometimes, whenever we have the chance we should make sure the party has a certain number, 40?... Multiple party members can attempt it. We can make it a standard setting up camp task, tents, fires, watch assignments, torch crafting. Also, almost all of us have low light vision... we don't need torches at camp, and maybe we can try to look into a more efficient method of light distribution than torches. Then maybe we could only use torches for combat. 4. Rather than talk about a conversion to a land based operation so soon (while we are deep in a set of river caverns with no exits in sight) , we should gather wood next time we make torches. Anyone have a suggestion on hammer and nails? Does anyone have some? As far as a hired mercenary team and wagoneering group, that's a good plan for the future, but still well off. It also hinges on the finding of this plant, as group treasure is currently only 485 gold, if you convert the silver. We can't afford the wagon and animals yet, let alone pay wages unless we succeed in the bounty. They are 2000 gp per plant we find (minus 1 to keep our promises to the gods) Last, about the Tiamat temple plans, I like your creativity. I think that they should go in reverse, or possibly simultaneously. If Leoavor attempted to negotiate with your plan WHILE Zeke sneaks in, perhaps the distraction would increase his chances. And if he attempts to get a flower for each the child, hostage, and egg that would be even more lucrative, and we have a starting place to bargain down from (keep in mind we need the plant down to its roots with soil. We can keep the plants in some helmets. I think 2 are in the boat, but if we find more that would be better.) Who knows how many plants we will actually find, and more plants is more money. Also, if they are lured out into an ambush then attacked without cover, the more advantages the better. It would also give Zeke more time to look if they are not easily found or he needs to look around the chapel. Though Riet the Druid said in the Chapel... Anyone else have thoughts?

I didn't see Sam's post while I was typing mine out. So no go on Zeke sneaking in. I just checked the Lady's lace cargo and the scale mail is listed there along with a bow, no arrows. Zeke you could have the bow and next time we see trees, craft some wooden arrows? Prepping for the next adventure in town by buying things is important.  Anyone want to propose a strategy for the next fight we face in the caverns, with the players we have? We currently have Kraggan Dewen Drusilia Leoavor Shakir and Zeke. We know players don't always make full sessions so we should have a base strategy without Shakir for early fights, and a strategy without each other player for absences. We can label the Plans A-F, and pick them at the start of initiative, as a guideline. Even make a journal about them to refer to in combat. Then we can know our general plan and formation. Then adapt from there. A- No Shakir, B- No Dewen, C- No Kraggan, D- No Drusilia, E- No Leoavor, F- No Zeke.  Shakir- Ghoul, Long Range crossbow, Melee Fighter Dewen- Cleric, Healer, Long Range Fighter Kraggan- Druid, Long Range Fighter, Companion Animal (melee) Drusilia- Monk, melee Leoavor- Wizard, Long Range Spells Zeke- Rogue, melee, but wants to be long range I think we need Shakir (strong as hell) and Dewen (well armored) to start being our Melee center people.  Drusilia the monk can move around, flanking. What do you think Demfro? Prestia? Yeth? Kraggan on opposite flank as mounted archer. Companion animal can fight in melee if something comes forward to attack us, and ranged weapon to support others. Zeke, I would say for now, next to Leoavor to protect him from threats, and once you get a bow as more long range support, then we switch and I'll stay back with Leo as a druid caster. "the ghoul and the clerics in their heavy armor in the center while me and the monk swing wide to flank or circle around to take out spell casters or ranged annoyances. Druid and wizard or wizards behind to focus on dropping large groups of cannon fodder or focus fire on stronger enemies or leaders." ~Sam

(Didnt doesnt prefer long range just would be useful when we have situations like an archer up on a ledge or we are on boat with no land but something hanging from ceiling is shooting stuff at us etc... just need to buy a bow now that I have some money. I dont prefer it just that having it will increase our ranged ability a bit. Although until I get a level or two maybe I WILL stick to archery behind the meat.)

1. happy we're discussing this 2. Zeke didn't say no to sneaking it. Just that he would like the party nearby to aid him if he gets caught     -I don't know the lay out of the chapel but at the very least I was hoping you could find a window to open or a door to unlock      -just peaking through to get a layout of the land and general enemy numbers would be good      -Kobolds lay traps, finding even a few would help us in the battle     -if we can find a good spot to hide our boat, we could attempt to wait for them to all gather in mass worship to get the most of them clumped for       some kind of entangle from kraggan an sleep from leoavor  bomb 2- having a small caravan following us , with guards,healers,foragers and supplies would be nice to prevent back tracking all the to town if something bad happens, it would also be expensive  3. we have enough gold for a few continual flame items, we just can't have any made in the middle of no where, we need to get to town for those 4. Valern has a (small) short bow with 8 small arrows up for grabs 5.I think any plans A-F, should be about who we have and no whose gone, I believe 3 is the lowest amount of players we need in a game to go forward 6. we have a war hammer that can be used as a hammer, we could make some very crude nails/smalls stakes from the bones of our enemies      we'd have to get some planks else where 7. I'm Pming with Max to work out how i'll introduce my next character. he'll be as much of a front liner as Valern if not better.     -hoping to introduce him quickly and trustworthy with out going to the regular (stranger jump into battle to help)    I do think Zeke could vouch for another member of the Terolus army if I go with Simon -most of our plans require a lot of gold and making it to town.(don't forget we also have to pay for our monthly upkeep in town pg 130 Dungeon master guide)

Idea-  We're making a map of our path through the Stone dark.   we could make copies of this and sell it to others        we might be able to convince a powerful guild, person, or the army to establish some way points along the path to make it safer for merchants  I think that one spot outside where we camped with the black sabbath group could be transformed into a small fort/outpost as a mid way point. 

Alright I'm not going to comment on long term planning, nor fort building etc, since I'm not so well versed in that. Though I do think that it can be left until we can leave the caves, after we finish our business in them. I think Zeke is better for flanking, Since he's a rogue, he's better off with flank attacks and such. Drusilia has a lot of AOO, so she can be the interference, though she isn't that good with long range, yet. She can play interference both while Zeke is around, and also while Zeke isn't, and vice versa if I'm not.  As for the kobold camp, I'm not entirely sure how we can do it yet, because I've not see it yet. But for now, I think our best bet is to find an easily defensible funnel, and make them funnel in one by one, until we've thinned their melee down enough to rush through to their archers. Another, yet riskier option is for all of us to attempt to sneak in. Like Zeke says, it's not particularly comforting for him to go in alone, and even worse if we aren't nearby. We can however, try to take them out, stealthily, as in, without letting them raise any alarms.  It's going to be very tricky though.  But first things first, try go back to town, get some reinforcements, heal up, stock up, and head back in,  IF we can find our way though, lol my suggestion.

joshua f. said: 1. the raft to tow loot idea has its pros an cons, it might have prevented squeezing but it would leave all or most of our loot in a seperate ship the could be cut lose or sunk with us being unable to defend it. - Zeke made a fishing net with the bodies ( I don't think anyone bothered to try and harvest that before we left.) - I don't think we're anywhere near the exit of the caves or a town (but I wouldnt know.) I highly suggest conversion to a land based operation the second we can buy a wagon and some horses. a.) Here's and idea for more structure in the party its all good and well to have a leader decide our general course and objectives-kraggan but we need someone good at battle tactics to lead us in a fight- ? at the minimum thats about 1 gold 7 silver/ day for the hirelings (assuming they don't ask for more) I'm glad to see you guys are planning between sessions now, and while I won't tell you what to do, I'm happy to chip in with mechanical rulings and general gameworld info. So, for each of the quoted things here respectively, I should mention: When there's minimal or no cargo in the Lady's Lace herself, you'll only be squeezing if the total number of afk party members and captives (anything Small or Medium, and Large counts as 4) + the total number of active party members in the boat is 3 or less, since that's the number of full 5' squares the boat covers and you need an entire 5' square to yourself to fight comfortably. I did forget about that, you can add 3 Medium rations of smoked fish to your stores for his efforts. You guys are indeed deep in the Stonefare now, several days' travel from your last entrance, which was itself quite far from the nearest town on foot even if you abandoned the boat. And backtracking isn't an exact science in the Catacombs... even with Leoavor's makeshift map, you might get lost. Heading back to town at this stage may be as dangerous an undertaking as continuing on towards your objective, and would probably make it much harder to find again when you return. Most of the Catacombs is easier to access on foot or horseback, but the Stonefare and the areas around the major rivers are much easier to explore by boat. A mechanical consideration: even if some of the PCs roll higher initiatives than Kraggan, remember that you can delay your actions without penalty. So for example, you could all agree to delay until after Kraggan (or someone else if you choose a different battle commander, like Black Sabbath did) can give orders in the event of an ambush. Keep in mind that if you undertake an expedition for someone else (like in this case, of searching for the plant the merchant wants), you can sometimes negotiate for your sponsor or patron to either fund the mission or at least defray the costs or hirelings and supplies. Sam O said: I could try sneaking in but I don't think I would live through it. Don't they see in the dark? Also probably a lot of magical alarms and traps and I'm just 1st level. I mean I don't mind going ahead a bit but would prefer the party close behind me for when I fail one of the many rolls I would likely have to make.  Maybe hire some guards just to camp and guard the stuff and/or hide it really well. With Valern gone we have no fighters.  You can still sneak past enemies with darkvision as long as there's enough light for you to see by and you have cover to Hide in. Whether or not that will be the case is yet to be seen, but I will say that there's often a lot of advantage to be gained from scouting out the enemy before rushing in blindly, even if the scout has to retreat or call for aid before exploring an entire area. Rogues can also find and disable traps, though Zeke will take a -2 penalty to disable traps or pick locks without a set of thieves' tools. That's one of the main reasons many parties bring a support group of hirelings. They usually establish a base camp for you deeper in the wilderness, that the main party can operate from and return to for resupply and rest. Usually there are a few mercenaries to guard the camp as well. Don't forget that monks are a primarily front-line melee class. They don't usually have the damage output of fighters, but they often outpace fighters in defensive ability. Shannon M. said: 3. .Also, almost all of us have low light vision... we don't need torches at camp, and maybe we can try to look into a more efficient method of light distribution than torches. Then maybe we could only use torches for combat. Low-light vision just means you can see better and further in dim light (also called shadowy illumination often in the rulebooks). But in places without any light, as most of the Catacombs (being underground cave and dungeon systems) are, you can't see ANYTHING without darkvision. 

Next session planing    I think the party is going to          1-heal up , question the kobolds (they might have information on the chapel/ numbers)           2- continue north west towards the chapel (high chance of monsters)           3- introduce my character some where (surprise even for me.)   so questions for the kobolds? and tactics for dealing with monsters.

Is the child able to talk? Can we understand it? If so, i think we can try coerce things out of it.  If not,  Need to know what this chapel is Numbers Possible sentry rotations Sleep time. Traps,  Alarms or anything else that will alert the chapel.

I think Shakir is fine with being melee damage and a frontline fighter, just remember even though he has an impressive 15 health, he can't go into negative health so he doesn't have the extra health pool to fall back on if he takes massive damage, thus he will be much more cowardly than your average fighter.

I'm not sure what we can plan for this week, pretty sure we're going to row the boat north west to the chapel. Just need to know what leoavor learned from the kobolds.

The kobold told me that the chapel was built inside some Drow ruins, which I assumed were the same ones we saw earlier with the swan. He says he can get me in disguised as a champion of Tiamat, but it will be dangerous. He also said I can get the priestess there to trust me by giving her the egg. Once I've gained the kobold's trust, maybe I can learn something about the swan from the priestess, plus we can steal some idols and stuff if we get the chance.

I'm pretty certain that if you trust the Kobold to get you in, the second you hand over the egg, he'll tell the truth and you'll die. Your better off trying it by your self, if that's the plan we're going for. The drow ruins we ran into a while back were locked by some massive stone doors, so we'll need to find another entrance. Also as a ghoul I need negative energy to heal, so if one of our clerics could prepare an inflict wounds spell for me daily, would be appreciated.

He's going to take us to another entrance. I told him I was taking the child so we could find him a home but in fact we're going to use him as leverage to make sure he doesn't betray us once we get there.

Why is this Kobold going to help you? Besides the child he is the last survivor of his family? Group? Clan? Should we assign the same values the good races have as far as love of their children to an evil race? And even if keeping himself and the child safe matters to him where is he going to go after betraying his people's god? Who will take them in after that? There is no chance he is not planning to betray you at the first opportunity. It is his only chance to have a home afterwards. I assume you don't know enough about the worship of Tiamat to stand up under even the slightest scrutiny. So about a minute after the "diplomacy" begins the jig will be up. I suggest we plan to hit them immediately once we are inside whatever defensive perimeter they have set up and hit them hard. There is no chance of bluffing our way unless they are the dumbest creatures on the face of the earth. The tactics used in their defense of an outlying outpost shows they are not dumb and I can only assume that the center of their worship will have the cream of the crop. As far as making a deal with them... What do we have as leverage? An unimportant Kobold and an even more unimportant child that I am sure the priests will be fine with sacrificing. And the egg, while important is only leverage until we hand it over at which point they will assuredly attack us. I assume Tiamat would not favor any other outcome. These are evil creatures and if nothing else a cult to the dark queen of dragons should be wiped out. I doubt their long term plans have anything to do with coexisting peacefully with us. You should ask him for a detailed layout of the place of meeting so we can plan our attack. How to cut off reinforcements while we deal with the priests. Everyone should have a bag of caltrops to throw out on the floor in front of any incoming passages and as we travel in we should prepare a few trip wires to slow pursuit of we have to flee. Our first targets should be the spell casters. Our fighters should prepare to move to incoming entrances to hold the line against reinforcements along with the caltrops. The monk and I and the spell casters should go after the casters. If we get into trouble we threaten to smash the egg and hope that buys us time to collect our wounded and retreat.

I agree with Sam on a lot of things. Sneaking in, won't work, too risky. The Kobold has nothing to gain by keeping us hidden, instead, he has all to gain by giving us up. I think we need to interrogate him to find out what they use the chapel for.  We know it was a drow chapel in ruins, but we don't know what the Kobolds use it for. Next we need to find out a rough estimate of numbers. Then if possible, get a layout, though i doubt that is possible, unless he has spent a lot of time in the chapel, which means that he will betray us regardless. Personally, I am of the mind to draw them out and fight in a place of our choosing, than to assault the chapel with what little we have. Baldrik died charging through a funnel they had readied. A lot of us nearly died with him.  We don't want to be repeating that a second time.  Priority targets are whoever rushes in first, melee will deal with melee, Our ranged attackers should try to keep their ranged busy. Once their frontline is dead, it is a simple thing to rush their casters. Even if they fall back to the chapel, without tanks to stand in the funnel, it's an easier task.  Draw them out, group by group, kill them, and make it an easier job for us to take the chapel, before we go rushing in. 

That is better if they keep coming out after us. But why would they after we kill the first group or two. They are self sustaining in their lair and will have many exits out. They will just fortify the entrance we are trying to get in and wait for us to go away or try to force their prepared defenses. Unless they really really want that egg. Then they might come out after us. 

semi soft reptilian 3-4 inchs tall black with veins of green I did some poking around the nest in that outpost and all the other broken egg shells were "hard and greenish yellow" there is a chance the egg may be the black dragons, and there fore worth a lot to the dragon worshiping kobolds.

Well we better keep it out of their complex and make an offer for an exchange where they only bring a few to an area we have prepared. Although I hope the flower is worth more than making sure a black dragon isn't born.

Sam, kobolds live in tribes, which means they have strong familial bonds out of necessity, even stronger than good races living in cities, he will care about the child. As for where he will go after, no one needs to know he betrayed Tiamat, anything I take I'll take discreetly and my main goal there is information about the swan. The egg isn't for leverage, it's a symbol of trust, it was meant to be sent from a different tribe to the chapel, if we give it to them I am confident they will believe I serve Tiamat. As for my knowledge of Tiamat, Leoavor is a wizard, he would have some knowledge if not a large amount, especially because so many magic writings are in draconic, meaning he'd have a knowledge of Tiamat more than other gods. Do we need to get a better plan than "get in the temple and wing it", yes, but scrapping the idea of diplomacy altogether doesn't seem necessary.

Its a world where gods tell their worshipers things they ought to know. This isn't just a primitive tribe. It's an evil race that worships a powerful god. And you're committing sacrilege on holy ground by dressing up as one of the faithful. The kobold is going to tell them who you are. Probably hoping to die in the telling and go to Tiamat heaven. He will have gotten the egg to where it needs to go. They will then know you as a fraud. You will have dressed up as holy member of their religion and snuck into their most holy place after slaughtering an outpost. Any trust you hope to engender will be gone. Their first instinct will be to attack you and take the egg and wreak vengeance upon you and us. If the egg was important enough for them to forget about the slaughter of their people and make a fair trade with you then I doubt it would have been left in such a tiny outpost to begin with. Once the kobold tells the priests about us and how they nearly wiped us out I really doubt there will be anything to make them deal fairly with us. They will assume that there, in the heart of their power and with more powerful and numerous brethren with them, they can most assuredly destroy us and take vengeance, the egg and all our stuff without giving up anything in return.... which is evil 101. But go ahead and try I mean high enough rolls and anything is possible. Maybe these are enlightened evil kobolds who want to make friends with the surface dwellers for Tiamat's glory. And what the hell....we are hanging out with 2 undead maybe they will love us.

I doubt you'll be able to take anything discreetly, you'll be a human claiming to be a champion of Tiamat, even if they trust you you'll still be watched just for the sheer novelty of such an outsider, I doubt humans visit their chapel often.    Learning about the swan is your main goal, not the parties (don't we already have a lead to go to tree fall and find the church that doesnt exist?) Valern's main goal is to get the flower and survive   side bonus's include    -killing as many kobolds as possible (it's a gnome thing we hate them an vice versa) total annihilation would be the best     - destroying Tiamats chapel (i've destroyed one of her statues and it wasnt enough to even out baldrikks death, I might declare war on a god.)    -keeping the egg (whether its kobold or dragon, I don't fill comfortable giving it up, if need be I'm pretty sure between Valern and Kraggan we have enough racial gnome prestidigitation to make a normal rock look eggactly like it for diplomacy efforts, if we go that route. edit: if we do go the diplomacy route, it's pretty clear the Leo will have to do it alone or at least with out the Kobolds that can rat him out or the gnomes which kobolds hate.

Alright, we've got an idea of a few plans, we'll decide on one later, but you do have a point about me being watched. Hopefully after finding what I want I can find a way to kill them without them knowing. Maybe I'll volunteer to cook human delicacies for them (like you said, humans are a novelty to them) and slip in just a little bit of whatever toxic cave bullshit we can find. Also, and this probably goes without saying, I don't approve of declaring wars on gods at level 2.

Toxic cave bullshit psh, Valern has collected some Arsenic and cave spider poison, although it might not be enough to actual do anything since there is so little and we don't have anyone with skill points in poison making do we?. When you've got a god backing you, you can declare war on who ever you want. 5 headed dragon got nothing on Death himself. I'm in favor of scouting the place out silently first, with my new dark vision i can see pretty far with no light, I'd just have to drop my armor before sneaking in as it give a large penalty to moving silently. Did zeke want the (small)Short bow  w/ 8 arrows? Valern can no longer use it since he's lost most of his skills by dieing. I have a spell book from a necromancer we fought before Leo joined the party, he could take a look at it while we're resting for 24 hours.

joshua f. said: Toxic cave bullshit psh, Valern has collected some Arsenic and cave spider poison, although it might not be enough to actual do anything since there is so little and we don't have anyone with skill points in poison making do we?. When you've got a god backing you, you can declare war on who ever you want. 5 headed dragon got nothing on Death himself. I'm in favor of scouting the place out silently first, with my new dark vision i can see pretty far with no light, I'd just have to drop my armor before sneaking in as it give a large penalty to moving silently. Did zeke want the (small)Short bow  w/ 8 arrows? Valern can no longer use it since he's lost most of his skills by dieing. I have a spell book from a necromancer we fought before Leo joined the party, he could take a look at it while we're resting for 24 hours. Isn't someone an alchemist? It might have been you, but you'd have to mix the poison ahead of time because I obviously can't bring a gnome into the kobold temple.

Poison crafting is different from Alchemy, two different crafting skills, I've Already had a PM with max about it.

Sam O said: Why is this Kobold going to help you? Besides the child he is the last survivor of his family? Group? Clan? Should we assign the same values the good races have as far as love of their children to an evil race? I assume you don't know enough about the worship of Tiamat to stand up under even the slightest scrutiny. These are evil creatures and if nothing else a cult to the dark queen of dragons should be wiped out.  Don't forget, everyone, that Knowledge skills are a great way to 'gather' basic intel when making plans. For example, Knowledge (local) can be used to see what you know about kobold culture and values, while Knowledge (religion) might include some education on the worship of Tiamat and kobold dragonpriests. As to them being evil, keep in mind that most good creatures don't kill evil ones simply for being evil... in fact, that kind of viewpoint is one of the basic tenents of an EVIL moral alignment. Good creatures tend to kill in self-defense to bring justice to those who've done evil deeds. Evil creatures tend to kill for personal gain, convenience, or racial or religious differences. But naturally there are scales of severity as well: most evil people don't actually commit murder, and most good people don't actually rescue innocents. This also isn't a universal absolute, mind you, just a general tendency of what alignment reflects. For example, some races (like gnomes and kobolds) have a deep feud going back millennia, that sometimes outweighs their personal nature. Stan T. said: As for my knowledge of Tiamat, Leoavor is a wizard, he would have some knowledge if not a large amount, especially because so many magic writings are in draconic, meaning he'd have a knowledge of Tiamat more than other gods.  Without at least 1 rank in Knolwedge (religion), he won't know more than any commoner would about Tiamat. Learning to read a language in order to read books written in it and learning in detail about the gods and religious practices of a culture are very different subjects. How much do you think the average English-literate knows about the pagan rituals of the Saxons, or even about Christian history and theology? Verrrrry little.

Well there ya go Stan. It's all about how the world adjudicator views things. So I am now convinced you have a chance to talk them into a deal. Still rather kill them and take their shot though so maybe I'm the evil one.

Alright, how about this? Stan goes to be a diplomat, hopefully without the Kobold, and negotiate. Meanwhile, Sam and Josh can attempt to sneak in to get a look for numbers, and layouts. this will happen AFTER we all have prepared an area to hold out in, if things go awry. if negotiations fail, Sam can run back to the rest of the party, and we can defend something. That can give zeke and josh the advantage in the chapel, if they want to look into it more, or if they feel like it, even attack them. all we have to do is, make sure that Demfro and Prestia are around, so that it's Five of us, versus whoever they send after Sam, and not just three versus multitudes. we can plan our defensive area, in a place where it would be easy for Zeke and Valern to fall back to if needed, as well. 

I'm ok with this. Although I don't think they'll just charge any defensive structure we make so this will mostly be for preventing their soldiers from getting close and giving some cover from their archers, here's some ideas  If we're making a defensive area for the diplomatic party to fall back to, make sure to pick a place with soft ground, Valern can spend a night digging some fortifications with his new shovel(a small ditch with the dirt piled on one side for half/ full cover depending on who is using it, specifics of what valern can do in one night will have to be worked out.), the caltrops and the 8 bone goblin javelins (planted in the ground) can be used to prevent charges. We could look into making other things if we happen upon any other materials. the 2 heavy steel shields could be planted into the dirt fort and held up with some beams to offer better cover for our larger characters.  If need be we have two chests, we can move all of the coins to one chest and scavenge the other, there is a trap in one of them we should look at using, and we could probably make some spikes at of the wood of the chest for a small spike pit.  we do have a set of full plate Shakir can use to improve his AC (although i don't know the negatives of using an armor your not profiecient in) along with a possible magic shield (can leo cast detect magic on the dragon shield sometime?) the morning star and some rope could make a swinging trap, although unless we have someone with craft trap making, I don't think we'll be able to do anything but basic pitfall traps

joshua f. said: Also as a ghoul I need negative energy to heal, so if one of our clerics could prepare an inflict wounds spell for me daily, would be appreciated. The only party cleric right now is Dewen, fyi. Kraggan can cast cure spells too, but inflict spells are unique to clerics. Ahmed Y. said: all we have to do is, make sure that Demfro and Prestia are around, so that it's Five of us, versus whoever they send after Sam, and not just three versus multitudes. I don't normally like to let ooc things influence PC actions, but it may be necessary in this special case since the kobold chapel assault is likely going to be a major battle. So to help with planning, I'm letting you guys know now that Shannon will miss this next session, and the week after that we won't be playing. Things should be back to normal the next week, though. So for this session, you may want to explore the current area a little more before heading into a major battle without your leader/healer/tank. joshua f. said: specifics of what valern can do in one night will have to be worked out.), the caltrops and the 8 bone goblin javelins (planted in the ground) can be used to prevent charges.  the 2 heavy steel shields could be planted into the dirt fort and held up with some beams to offer better cover for our larger characters.  If need be we have two chests, we can move all of the coins to one chest and scavenge the other, there is a trap in one of them we should look at using, and we could probably make some spikes at of the wood of the chest for a small spike pit.  we do have a set of full plate Shakir can use to improve his AC (although i don't know the negatives of using an armor your not profiecient in) the morning star and some rope could make a swinging trap, although unless we have someone with craft trap making, I don't think we'll be able to do anything but basic pitfall traps Digging a small trench and fortifying it can be managed in an hour with several characters working together, or in a few hours by one alone (especially with a tireless undead body and high Strength). Setting up the shields as barriers and the javelins as stakes is also feasible, provided you have enough materials. Resetting the dart trap would take a bit more skill, either Craft (trapmaking) or Disable Device. Making new traps from your materials would also fall under Craft (trapmaking). 

Party planing, do we stay and explore more while some of our party is gone or go in to the fight and stop with them coming in as reinforcement ? I don't mind exploring more, I can always walk along the bottom of the river to search for useful things.

we can take the session to both explore, and set up. also, we need to redo the interrogation to find out the things we want to find out. I think we can at most, prod around. best not go in, because we need to communicate this to the rest of the party for the big fight. it will also give some us valuable hit points. 

so we spend the session exploring then go find a place to set up our encampment? I did walk off and find some giant fungi and the beetles lair.

If we or at least some of us survive... I think we should look at the source of the water in these catacombs. Is it coming in from a river? Can we divert or dam the river or is it like the Mississipi or Amazon size? If it's coming in through one entrance maybe we make a landslide and sorry to the farmers upriver. Maybe we let a lake form up real big then set up some such fire, oil other explosives on the inside and light it by fuse and run... Then the water surges through the catacombs and washes all the kobolds and chokers and fish people out the other exits. We have military units standing by at all the exits to wipe out anything g that comes out still living. Let's think big like the Romans. Let's use some engineering know how to make this easier. 

I think we should hold off plans to alter the maps until we're higher level.    What I'm taking from this encounter. -stick to the objective. We Know this place is dangerous, we know where our objective is, why did we divert from the path? -Don't wonder off alone.

Sam O said: If we or at least some of us survive... I think we should look at the source of the water in these catacombs. Is it coming in from a river? Can we divert or dam the river or is it like the Mississipi or Amazon size? If it's coming in through one entrance maybe we make a landslide and sorry to the farmers upriver. Maybe we let a lake form up real big then set up some such fire, oil other explosives on the inside and light it by fuse and run... Then the water surges through the catacombs and washes all the kobolds and chokers and fish people out the other exits. We have military units standing by at all the exits to wipe out anything g that comes out still living. Let's think big like the Romans. Let's use some engineering know how to make this easier.  Knowledge (geography) and (architecture & engineering) checks are useful for these kinds of considerations, fyi.

You dead guys a re the lucky ones. You got two weeks to make awesome new characters. I gotta lay in the bottom of a boat next to a bleeding Kobold. Also why do we have secondary characters if we aren't bringing them in as replacements? Are they only for if we happen to be heading back to town right when we die?

You could surrender and hope they keep you alive,it's my understanding they only mercilessly murdered Valern because he was undead, personally I just rolled up the character so I could play again quicker w/o having to wait for Max to work in Simon.

Surrender? I didn't say I was worried. Just that it's 2 weeks of stink next to the kobold.

better him than you though right? new character preview- DM 320 31