Teamwork & Planning

I'm just going to put this here because you guys are talking here a lot, I think I really shouldn't be a part of this anymore, I really like the game and there's nothing really annoying me, I just think that with me I only ever get like 3 hours of actual game time, plus when it comes to when talking in the party happens, no one pays attention to Shakir, I'm fine with that btw, it just means that every time I come to the game there's like a 50% chance I actually do anything that game.

I'd already discussed this with max, mostly because I did not want to start at level 1 with 0 xp again but if shakir dies or levels up from this fight I can come back at level 2, which is nice. the only other points were -you level the slowest , you'll get all the bad stuff that comes from that.   -you usually our reinforcements if you join mid battle (you should probably trade in your heavy crossbow some time, it becomes useless after you fire it and have to spend a whole round reloading) I can't say I'd be sad to see you go or happy if you stayed, you have not spent as much time in the game as the others, if you could get your schedule to fit the game time that would be great if not, you should probably work on getting to the know the situation before jumping straight in. It's up to you if you want to stay or go. 

I'll see what the others think before I make my final decition but you make some good points.

I wouldn't kick out someone eager to play just because of scheduling conflicts, but I have also noticed the issues caused by Demfro coming in mid-game. When he jumps in, it would usually take too long to fully summarize everything that's going on, and a cursory description often skips details that wind up being important (since really, everything is important, or I wouldn't include it in the game). His alarm clock often fails too, so half the time he doesn't really get there until nearly the end. It's made it a lot harder for him to roleplay and interact with the rest of the party and the gameworld, and as Valern pointed out he earns less xp which usually puts him behind the rest of the part in levels. The only thing I disagree about is the heavy crossbow: it's a very powerful opener in the first round, with incredible range (the longest of any weapon) and potentionally high damage if it hits. You just have to remember that it's not intended to be reloaded during combat. Heavy crossbows are generally meant to fire an opening shot as the enemy closes in, and then be set aside in favor of melee weapons (unless you're being kept apart and have cover to reload for some reason, like when defending a wall or tower).

I have no problem with you coming in towards the end, but I understand that's probably not very fun for you, it's really your call man.

I agree with a lot of the comments here. Yes, I understand that it's a pain for you, both plot wise, and xp wise. and also time wise. but please do not feel like you're holding us back, your input, though i've been bad at taking it all, is very helpful, and i'm happy to have you here. but again, i can understand why it's a pain, so like Stan says It's really your call, I'll respect it either way. 

Alright, I'll stay for a few more games at least, see where it takes me. thanks for your imput guys.

Thats nice, I'm happy to resume this week finally. Can't wait to see how this all  goes down.

I have to come late again tomorrow, had to stay up a while last night so I won't be able to get up so early.

no plan survives contact with the enemy, should i attempt to salvage the diplomatic effort or resort to plan kill them all? I mean we did manage to set up fortifications and start diplomacy and then i have no idea what happened. 

More like "no plan survives people ignoring it and alerting the guards" amirite

Salvage it, For all you know, it's not one of us, so keep claiming it's not It's up to me and zeke to get away without being truly found out.

Can I get a quick recap of last session? I can read through the chat log if no one has time but an overview that only has the important parts would be nice if someone has time to give one.

-finished the map on to next game map which is kobolds lair/ dragon chapel - found a map of the kobolds lair and a strange brass key  -managed to set up some simple fortifications and start diplomacy with kobolds -gorel went with kobolds to meet the leader while the party stayed with the boat -shit went down we entered rounds and stopped there.  - so with out meta gaming no one at the boat knows Gorels current state.

OK, what's the status on the kobold we captured?

the child is still bound, and in the boat. the other kobold is with Gorel. I'm about to run back to the party, and hopefully zeke comes with me

Personally I think a dragons egg is worth more than  2000 gold flower. and I would prefer to not give it to the kobolds at all. I also don't want to break the egg and kill the dragon. What do you guys think of raising a black dragon wyrmling?  -thats not to say i won't trade it for the flower but if i do i'm going to ask for a much higher price. -on a side note does gorel know about the promise to leave one flower there?

Well he knows that before they agreed to negotiate with us, we said we wouldn't take it all, while we were fortified

I would rather keep eggs and plants, but would a gold and black get along? What would we do with the hatchling, would it make us an enemy of peulossi and rith one eye? Are they of more value as allies?

Shannon M. said: I would rather keep eggs and plants, but would a gold and black get along? What would we do with the hatchling, would it make us an enemy of peulossi and rith one eye? Are they of more value as allies? Knowledge (arcana), (history), (geography), and (nobility & royalty) all apply to those questions.

I got a  20 on the nobility and royalty for that. A old gold and old black set in their ways would never get along, unless world ending stuff forced them too, but  there are rules in the draconomicon that allow for rearing a wyrmling from the egg, which is also mentioned in my plus 1 book. So if max allows it, it could be possible for me to take the black on as a ward if i pass a very high diplomacy or intimate dc ( or any one else in the group) 

It will be a wyrmling for 6 years then very young until it's 15 years old. They are always CE and they are malevolent and cunning. So its going to be too small to be much use and when it gets bigger its going to fuck us. It's going to be smart and eventually it's going to wonder why it's with a bunch of humans. No matter what we say it's going to start getting pissed it isn't out with other dragons tearing it up on Saturday night. It is not going to look at us with big baleful eyes and tell us how much it appreciates us. You can't hug the inherent evil out of it. Trade it, sell it or smash it. It will be nothing but trouble to keep. But if you do and want to use diplomacy on it we need to know what it's GP value was worth to take out of your share.

joshua f. said: I got a  20 on the nobility and royalty for that. A old gold and old black set in their ways would never get along, unless world ending stuff forced them too, but  there are rules in the draconomicon that allow for rearing a wyrmling from the egg, which is also mentioned in my plus 1 book. So if max allows it, it could be possible for me to take the black on as a ward if i pass a very high diplomacy or intimate dc ( or any one else in the group)  You know that if the egg does indeed contain one of Puelossi's children, it could be a useful bargaining chip with her, and consequently, with her mistress Rith One-Eye. Puelossi is a powerful servant of Rith, so her opinion probably holds a lot of sway, but using her unborn child as a hostage could end up earning you a lot of enmity once it's safe in her hands again. On the other hand, you might bargain with her by promising to raise the hatchling yourself, gaining her favor instead. You've also heard rumors that Rith is herself a servant of one of the still-greater powers that dwell deep beneath the Catacombs, so the larger effects of such a situation could be more complex... As for raising a black dragon, you CAN use the rules in your +1 book to give it your best try. A black dragon would be inherently evil of course, as Zeke said, but it is possible  to raise one to resist its basic nature. There have always been tales of evil creatures raised or brought over to the side of good, and vice versa, though these are very much the exception rather than the rule. Also, whoever has the egg right now, please mark it with the map note SF6 4.

Marked it. Black dragon are not always CE, look at shadowscale, I doubt i could pull of a complete 180 from CE to LG (since I'm NG that'll be my mark) -how ever it does hinge on the diplomacy roll. -Can't find any price on a black dragons egg, I imagine we'd have to set one ourselves, or do something like half share to the party since it'll add expenses to food ration/ town upkeeps similar to a  cohort

3.5 dmg says they are always CE. He said its a Black Dragon egg. I suppose we might discover it's some weird offshoot cousin that can turn into a fluffy bunny loyal pet. Ugh.

polymorph is no joke man, that spell can  ruin a dragons life 

joshua f. said: -Can't find any price on a black dragons egg, I imagine we'd have to set one ourselves, or do something like half share to the party since it'll add expenses to food ration/ town upkeeps similar to a cohort You could roll Appraise on it, though the DC will probably be high for such a rare item. Sam O said: 3.5 dmg says they are always CE. He said its a Black Dragon egg. I suppose we might discover it's some weird offshoot cousin that can turn into a fluffy bunny loyal pet. Ugh. Keep in mind that what the books say about monsters and what your characters know about monsters are very different questions, especially since the books are just guidelines for the DM, not rules set in stone. That's why Knowledge skills and in-game research are so useful!

I feel like appraising it should be done in game, each character might think its worth something different,  could i roll another dragon hit dice to see i know anything on the nature of black dragons?

Well if the rules are stretchy let's raise it up and artificially age it. Send him against a ghost or some other aging monster. Ghost keeps slapping him and he just keeps getting bigger.

joshua f. said: I feel like appraising it should be done in game, each character might think its worth something different,  could i roll another dragon hit dice to see i know anything on the nature of black dragons? That might be a better idea, yeah. And yes, you can roll a dragon level check on black dragons. Sam O said: Well if the rules are stretchy let's raise it up and artificially age it. Send him against a ghost or some other aging monster. Ghost keeps slapping him and he just keeps getting bigger. That's creative thinking, but again, it's a question of whether your characters know how dragon aging and growth works, how aging magic works, where you could find something that can age someone, etc. Remember that this is a world with mostly medieval-level technology. There's no public education, no public libraries, no internet databases. Most people know how their own abilities work, and a fair bit about their hometown, but beyond that everything you haven't studied (ie, have no Knowledge ranks in) is conjecture.

joshua f. said: Marked it. Josh, Shannon pointed out to me that Gorel shouldn't actually have the egg right now. The party stopped him from taking it out of the boat's cargo, remember? Kraggan told him that he needed to earn their trust before just taking valuable things like the dagger and the egg.

No,I remember a bunch of stuff about how i should'nt steal from the party but no one actually stopping me. but thats fine, I think it'll be funny when i show the kobold priest nothing while i'm in the center of his domain. time for plan b. which is bluff. -does this mean i also don't have the shield?

What the game plan? wait until they drag my unconscious body to you and demand the egg for my life cause that's whats going to happen in 10 rounds when my final shield spell goes away or less if they get lucky with crits. 

You're telling us info we shouldn't know. Earlier you told us how many kobolds you saw also. This is all stuff we shouldn't know. 

thanks for bring up what i said ooc, I'll make it IC when we resume by yelling " Oh god theres 15 of them help me!"  cast my shield spell the way i do and scream " My magic will only protect me for a minute, please help me!"  and hope it doesnt fall on deaf ears again. so whats your plan? cause IC I'm hoping you'll be decent people and help me after screwing me over OC I've got no hope at all,except I guess Kraggan is going try something with the egg. 20 -30minutes was all it would've taken to negotiate a deal and we could have be on our way out of this horrid place. 

IC you don't even know if we're the ones that messed it up,  for all Gorel knows, it could have been just an alarm, and then his attempted cast of a spell that is going to get him killed.  you metagame too much :P

meta game? how so? It was an alarm, if you knew draconic you'd have know what was shouted. but the second it was things went south and it was surrender or fight.  If you think I'm meta gaming by assuming it was one of you who messed up then let me explain some logic -We have a MAP of this entire kobold lair and it has only one entrance  - which when i left was  blocked by  the boat, a pike wall as well as 4-7 people(you guys) -not only would someone else have to be in the area at the same time, they'd have to dock their boat and then get past you guys     -which would be nearly impossible to do sneakily since your all in one tiny corridor      - so for an outside person to set off the Alarm the entire party would have to willing let them go past. which is pretty much the same thing as you all doing it. -IC I'm assuming one of you or all of you broke the agreement  OOC this whole thing could be put on Drus for setting off the alarm but I'm going to blame the entire party, if you see someone doing something stupid stop them.

Max said: joshua f. said: Marked it. Josh, Shannon pointed out to me that Gorel shouldn't actually have the egg right now. The party stopped him from taking it out of the boat's cargo, remember? Kraggan told him that he needed to earn their trust before just taking valuable things like the dagger and the egg. This whole trust thing, it goes both ways, Gorel will hardly trust a party that breaks a diplomatic agreement. 

Gorel does not know, if it was us, or a different party  Gorel does not know,

joshua f. said: -IC I'm assuming one of you or all of you broke the agreement  Gorel does not know, but he can assume and guess not that he even cares how the situation started since his biggest concern right now is trying to survive being mobbed .

But now in the future if Max ever wants to try to trick us into thinking you are being attacked... if we don't hear you screaming ooc about 15 kobolds mobbing you and that you're about to die we will not believe the DM's ruse.

I don't know I'd probably help him by faking it.

Ok Josh  #1- You do kinda meta game, even if you can back it up this time #2- Yeah Gorel is endangered, and with his assumptions, rightfully pissed off. You personally however are not rightfully pissed cuz your pissed based on meta gaming. #3- Yeah trust goes both ways, but you know what that doesn't change? The fact that Kraggan has to weigh the entire partys' lives.  #4- We might have come for you sooner if the rogue had, ya know, EVER come back with intel. If Dru had provided any either. #5- Dru was asked not to enter to explore. She is not the only party member who has ignored a statement from Kraggan. Kraggan is getting pretty pissed that she keeps seeing people she cares about die because people want to rush in just cuz they feel like doing something (impatient and bored)  (I'm not putting it all on Dru, but Yeth you're a monk, not a rogue. You even asked what Krag thought you should do, which was exit and scout the perimeter, and our rogue should do his job so you don't feel the need to scout) #6- Gorel can confront us in game, post battle, if he wants on the trust thing. #7- Kraggan couldn't change her mind til she got NON meta gaming type information. Zeke never returned, she didn't hear Gorel ask for help at first, then she left with the party en force when she did. 

OK another thing. We are mostly good aligned. I am a druid, we have an NPC cleric. Our powers rely on our staying good aligned for the goddess given powers of Ehlonna. THis dragon egg, evil or not, is a child, no an unborn baby. Kraggan is not going to be ok with hurting it. She is willing to give it to this temple, not out of greed or commerce, but because it gets what she wants while also giving the egg a safe place to be.  Other good people might want to keep that in mind. That the egg is a baby. Also, tactical things you all may not have considered.  We have a child hostage. If we go after Gorel and leave the boat, kobolds up top may reclaim it. or take/break our boat, gold, rations, torches, supplies. Any or all of it. If we leave it unprotected, which we need to in order to go to Gorel. In the event of a future battle, that if we are in/get separated in the catacombs we get to together again as quickly as possible. Lone people die at early levels.

Shannon M. said: Ok Josh  #1- You do kinda meta game, even if you can back it up this time #2- Yeah Gorel is endangered, and with his assumptions, rightfully pissed off. You personally however are not rightfully pissed cuz your pissed based on meta gaming. #3- Yeah trust goes both ways, but you know what that doesn't change? The fact that Kraggan has to weigh the entire partys' lives.  #4- We might have come for you sooner if the rogue had, ya know, EVER come back with intel. If Dru had provided any either. #5- Dru was asked not to enter to explore. She is not the only party member who has ignored a statement from Kraggan. Kraggan is getting pretty pissed that she keeps seeing people she cares about die because people want to rush in just cuz they feel like doing something (impatient and bored)  (I'm not putting it all on Dru, but Yeth you're a monk, not a rogue. You even asked what Krag thought you should do, which was exit and scout the perimeter, and our rogue should do his job so you don't feel the need to scout) #6- Gorel can confront us in game, post battle, if he wants on the trust thing. #7- Kraggan couldn't change her mind til she got NON meta gaming type information. Zeke never returned, she didn't hear Gorel ask for help at first, then she left with the party en force when she did.  1- when and how? 2-pissed is a bit strong, hard to give a tone with text, more slightly irritated  3- any time you want to step down from leadership you can 4/7- I think the non meta info was when  the kobolds started  screeching and the DM literally opened the game with the fact my guesright protection was gone ( I didn't catch this until after the game so can't blame you) 5-Hard to stay IC when your sitting around for 15 minutes with nothing happening, we should pick up some cards in town so we have stuff to do I also wonder how many people in this group have the chaotic alignment  6- we'll see, he has to survive first.  edit- I also just realized it's guest right  not gues right, makes more sense that way i guess. 

1) I said not to go off alone and we should negotiate all together before Gorel left with them. You went anyway. I ont remember if it was Kraggan or Gorel or both who insisted on that decision. 2) I'm just now 2nd level. I'm not some super experienced rogue who is comfortable wandering around alone far from allies in a temple to an evil god. I told you before I didnt want to be more than a round or two from the party. To effectively hide at my best I need to move at half speed. You were taken in a long way Gorel. I saw one Kobold about a round before the party started moving in due to your screaming. 3)Just because you have a rogue doesn't mean he's going to or able to roam about with no risk. I roll low and anything rolls high and I'm seen and attacked. Moving at 20 I'm not going to outrun much. I'm not going to do stupid things often. That's why I'm still alive.  4) The fact you continuously say things in different languages other than common to people who speak common shows your willingness to exclude others. Going off alone into an encounter goes along with this mentality of not bringing the entire party into the equation. Maybe you want to be special and have the spotlight on you or not share the DM with anyone or something but now you got in trouble and it's no one's fault but those who thought sending one party member off alone with the evil priests of Tiamat was a good idea. You went off alone with Undead Valern as well and didn't worry that the party was not with you and you knew we werent with you as you could read what was going on. And you have shown that you have no problem with meta gaming so you continued off alone because you wanted to yoink some treasure or get some solo xp or both. Good try but sometimes you get caught alone and die. You took a risk for a reward and it didnt work out. Deal with it.

1. kraggan did support it, but i went off before she gave the ahead, I was testing gorels diplomatic skills    -diplomacy to get them to stop firing     -bluff to make them think I'm over powered with the sense power     -intimidate to scare them into an agreement   -sense motive to make sure they'd keep it 4.yes Gorel can speak many different languages, it did'nt occur to me to switch back to common when it became clear they could speak it ,thats my fault.   I did not go off into an encounter alone I went into a diplomatic meeting, would've had the spot light for maybe 10-20 minutes while i used gorels skills to secure a good deal, then it would've went to kraggan and the party who had the egg and could decide whether or not to accept it. that was the plan anyways. -the one time i went off alone intentional with Valern was to kill that one beetle that got away, walking off alone into the fish people was an accident I did'nt see the tunnel the party saw and walked left to where i thought the party was going which is what got him killed 2. moving slowly is a part of stealth but why are you rolling?] can't you take 10 since it is a situation where your not rushing but there consequences if you fail so you can't take 20. joshua f. said: Shannon M. said: Ok Josh  #1- You do kinda meta game, even if you can back it up this time 1- when and how? second time I've been accuse of meta gaming. When and how? I can't recall a single moment when i let ooc knowledge effect my in game decisions, and if i can back it up this time and every time (because I have not done it) then it's not meta gaming.

Taking 10 and taking 20 means more than a round it would take much longer. And I was told to roll each round. If I take 20 I'm probably moving at like 1-3 feet a round. 

And again... Taking 10 or taking 20 presumes you keep trying with failures until you get it right. If I fail a hide or move silent check I'm caught so it's not really available for me to take 10 or 20.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about these rules (I also frequently get asked in-game about them), so I'm going to clarify them now for everyone: Taking 10 takes the same amount of time as rolling, it just means you're not under any pressure or in danger of getting attacked so you can be careful and judicious. If you were sneaking before the guards went into high alert, you could have taken 10 (which is why Drusilia was able to take 10 when she did so). But once they were alerted, you were constantly in danger of being attacked, so you could no longer take 10 (ie, you generally can't take 10 in combat). Taking 10 is also possible for skills with a risk of failure, since it doesn't mean trying again when you fail, it just means focusing entirely on the skill without distractions or danger and being careful to do the skill right. There are, however, certain skills that you can't ever take 10 on, because they work in an unusual way: for example, Knowledge skills, or any use of another skill that imitates a Knowledge skill (like using Heal, Craft, or a level check as a Knowledge skill). Taking 20 means trying again and again until you succeed. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as rolling or taking 10 would for that use of whichever skill you're attempting. You can take 20 in combat, though few combats last long enough to do so, since even a skill check that takes a move action would require 10 rounds (1 minute) to take 20 on (and it's also likely that you'd be interrupted before you finish). You CAN'T take 20 on skills with a PENALTY for failure, since it involves repeated failures during the time you keep trying. Generally, the skills you can't ever take 10 on also can't ever have 20 taken on them.