Character Attributes changing order

Sometimes when I save a character sheet and then reopen it later, I'll find that all the Attributes are in a new order. For example, I'll make a character with the following stats: Strength 3 / 3 Agility 5 / 5 Toughness 3 / 3 Intelligence 3 / 3 Willpower 3 / 3 Fellowship 4 / 4 Wound Threshold 0 / 12 Corruption Threshold 0 / 8 In that order only because that's the order used in the rulebook or paper character sheet. Later, either I or the player decide that it would be easier to access in another order, with the most-accessed things at the top and everything else alphabetical, so we drag them around to this order: Wound Threshold 0 / 12 Corruption Threshold 0 / 8 Agility 5 / 5 Fellowship 4 / 4 Intelligence 3 / 3 Strength 3 / 3 Toughness 3 / 3 Willpower 3 / 3 We'll save that, and all will be well. But then next session we go open up the character sheet, and it's moved around in a seemingly arbitrary fashion. Maybe something like this: Wound Threshold 0 / 12 Agility 5 / 5 Strength 3 / 3 Toughness 3 / 3 Intelligence 3 / 3 Corruption Threshold 0 / 8 Willpower 3 / 3 Fellowship 4 / 4 I cannot for the life of me figure out why it's doing this. It seems completely random. At first I thought it had to do with two people trying to edit or view a character sheet at the same time, but I've since disproved that theory by experiencing it when only I was logged in to the campaign. Is there anyway to stop this from happening? The actual character sheets in question have a lot more stats than just what's listed above (at least 3 times as many numerical values), so having things arbitrarily rearrange themselves can make it really hard to look up a little-used characteristic in the middle of a scene. Abilities don't seem to have this problem, they always stay in whatever order we rearrange them into. It's just things in the left-hand column that seem to jump around. I'm on an iMac using Firefox 25.01 and OS X Mavericks, but my players experience the problem as well and they are on PCs (using Firefox, IIRC) and/or an iPad (using Safari). So it doesn't seem to be system-specific. It happens frequently, from once every few sessions to four times in a single hour quite recently.

Please send me a join link. Also, screenshots (before and after) would be helpful.

This is from a different campaign I'm running that has the same problem: These are two character sheets right next to each other. The one on the right "NPC Template - Demigod" has the preferred layout, with stress boxes above consequences, above skills. The one on the left should look just like it - I mainly just added a couple extra stats. After saving the most recent change, when I next opened it everything was out of order. Gauss, I'll send you a join link in a moment.

We were having a similar problem last night. Players would organize their Abilities, save, then find them re-shuffled. Seemed to be exclusive to Abilities, though. Not Attributes.

I've never seen it happen on a character with fewer than 10 attributes. That said, nearly all the characters in my 3 campaigns have more than 10 attributes, and the few that don't are minor NPCs that don't see much action. So it might just be coincidental.

Could be. We all have WELL in excess of 10 Attributes...and Abilities, too, in most cases.

Just had it happen again. I told it to save a character sheet I'd just edited. It saved the Abilities in a different order than I had dragged them into. All the other changes I'd made did not revert, everything's fine except a couple of Abilities are in the wrong order. Attributes that I'd also arranged during the same play session did NOT spontaneously rearrange when the Abilities did. The character this just happened too has only 7 abilities, but over 20 Attributes.

And then it happened again half an hour later, this time to a character with more than 10 attributes and more than 10 abilities. 4 Abilities that I'd moved to the bottom of the list suddenly relocated scattered throughout the list. One other thing both "incidents" today had in common was that I was editing things on both the Bio and Attributes tab, and saved with the Bio tab in the front. When I switched back to the the Attributes tab after saving was when I noticed that the Abilities had all changed their order. EDIT: So it's possible this happens only when you save with the bio screen in the front layer. Maybe? Just a thought. Just tried to provoke it into happening by alphabetizing the abilities on a character sheet, switching to the bio page and then saving. This time it didn't reorganize anything, despite having triggered it twice by accident earlier in the day.

can confirm this happens in my campaign as well, with 83(ish) attributes or more and as many abilities.

Rolfe and Michael , thank you for the information. I will pass it on to the Devs.

Michael H. said: can confirm this happens in my campaign as well, with 83(ish) attributes or more and as many abilities. 83(ish) atributes?!?! What the heck are you playing?

Sounds like GURPS

dnd 3.5. i use the API to make the sheet, with a lot of micromanagement involved for ease of play. one macro for each kind of attackwhich requires 3 attributes (attack, damage and weapon name) each - the attacks are main hand light weapon, main hand 1 handed weapon, offhand light weapon, offhand one handed weapon, 2 handed weapon, thrown light weapon, thrown 1 handed weapon, and ranged weapon. I have power attack and combat expertise as abilities that players can set (bound to bar2 in my game, depending on which feat they use the most) rather than queries, to save click time. I have AC-total, AC-touch and AC-flatfooted so i can use my ac-list macro to call any targets AC in a GM whisper, I have one for each stat (obviously), one for each save, one for each skill, trained or untrained (players can delete irrelevant ones once they know they will never need them) and for special abilities and class specific abilities I add as needed (sneak attack die for rogues, etc). its not as unmanagable as it sounds. also, just as a side note, my gurps games have FAR less abilities. just 6 in fact. The stats that need to be rolled and a query for the difficulty. Gurps is a far simpler mechanic to automate, though I welcome my players to add abilities for their own ease of use if they wish.

Michael H. said: dnd 3.5. i use the API to make the sheet, with a lot of micromanagement involved for ease of play. one macro for each kind of attackwhich requires 3 attributes (attack, damage and weapon name) each - the attacks are main hand light weapon, main hand 1 handed weapon, offhand light weapon, offhand one handed weapon, 2 handed weapon, thrown light weapon, thrown 1 handed weapon, and ranged weapon. I have power attack and combat expertise as abilities that players can set (bound to bar2 in my game, depending on which feat they use the most) rather than queries, to save click time. I have AC-total, AC-touch and AC-flatfooted so i can use my ac-list macro to call any targets AC in a GM whisper, I have one for each stat (obviously), one for each save, one for each skill, trained or untrained (players can delete irrelevant ones once they know they will never need them) and for special abilities and class specific abilities I add as needed (sneak attack die for rogues, etc). its not as unmanagable as it sounds. also, just as a side note, my gurps games have FAR less abilities. just 6 in fact. The stats that need to be rolled and a query for the difficulty. Gurps is a far simpler mechanic to automate, though I welcome my players to add abilities for their own ease of use if they wish. Fair enough.... I have had a bit of runaway use of attributes. Lately I have been thinking abut having this all exist in the state object and just have those values displayed in the notes section in a table. But.. Think we need a better option for a API UI... which I suspect will be coming.

I understand what you mean, and when the API becomes a little more stable and/or my understanding of javascripting improves I am considering writing a database for a lot of what goes into the behind the scenes stuff (equipment lists, calculating armor class, various other things that don't directly effect characters in play) As such, I prefer using the character sheet to record all things that are relevant to combat related scenarios - when the API does crash, the macros are all still functional, which is a big advantage. you lose some of the ease of use stuff, but none of the character functionality during gameplay.