Roll20 uses cookies to improve your experience on our site. Cookies enable you to enjoy certain features, social sharing functionality, and tailor message and display ads to your interests on our site and others. They also help us understand how our site is being used. By continuing to use our site, you consent to our use of cookies. Update your cookie preferences .
×
Create a free account

Is there any interest in a Black Crusade?

After playing alot of Pathfinder and DnD 3.5, I've been also dabbling in my love of Warhammer. I have an interest in the fluff, but I will admit I don't have much love for the Imperium, and after looking around I've found a good number of Dark Heresy games, but very few Black Crusade games. Is there any reason for this I am not aware of, or is it a simple lack of interest? I am really looking for a chance to explore the world of Warhammer 40K as a character, am I just better off biting the bullet and trying to conjure up a Loyalist type character?
It seems that very few GMs have an idea where to go with this setting. Mechanically it's much more polished than Dark Heresy.
That's mostly the issue I have (Reason I am not trying to run a game). It's one thing to play Pathfinder and be able to make your own world and histories, but when you are locked into another set of histories and environments, I wouldn't want to mess it up for my players. It's one of the reasons I am trying to get into a game and learn the systems, world, details I need to become involved in, etc.
I would like to play mainly seeing as most BC games I join I end up being the GM. If ya need story ideas or something they have a few good ones in the splat books and core book. Another reason people don't play BC is cause not many players like being the bad guys even though they end up being murder hobos anyway.
From my personal experience running an evil based campaign is difficult, i cant wrap my head around the idea longer than 5 minutes personally, so it becomes a struggle for me and then i lose interest. Besides like Chris M. said most groups devolve into a bunch of mindless murdering psycopaths anyhow.
Being evil in BC is pretty easy. Its not evil as in "LOL I burn the kid's father in front him" most the time. I like to play/run BC more as an evil-paladin, doing your actions more for your god then yourself. But in the end you worship your god for self-gain and not the gain of others. Also a thing you will need to be ok with in BC sometimes is player-death as having mixed gods can often lead to in-fighting with the players. As a GM you may want to make it so your players less straight up fight, unless they are Khorne, and instead have it so some events can go one players way while screwing another players' plans a bit. One event I had with a group of all the gods is that a flesh-shaper wanted to fuse two hive city leaders together (which is really dumb) and have them rule together to stop fighting. As a Nurgle worshiper I tried to stop this plan by killing one the hive leaders. Upon a bit of talking with the GM I went back on my move, even though I was able to kill everyone in the city if I wanted. The flesh-shaper went on with the plan but later in the game I opened a warp portal in said hive cites, lowering the flesh-shaper's plan progress.
1391833730

Edited 1391833758
Disclaimer: There will be spelling mistakes, i can never spell warhammer lore. Remember that "Warhammer Evil" is often less evil than "Warhammer Good". The "good" guys are laboring to uphold a cruel/totalitarian/xenophobic government that kills off any free thinkers. Slaneesh worshippers often wish for beauty or perfection, Khorne worshippers can be excessively honorable, Tzeentch worshippers can be very prudent and reasonable, and Nurgle worshippers often wish for the survival and protection of the weak. To their eyes, the rampant massacre perpetuated by the empire can be worse than anything some "gods" are up to. They're still people. Note that many champions of Khorne wouldn't be caught dead killing weak innocents; they are unworthy opponents. Whereas many (space marines/inquisitors/adepts/commissiars/etc.) would be unreasonably energetic killing them off at the CHANCE of them having come into contact with heretical knowledge.
I find when it comes to 'Good' and 'Evil', I find the key more than anything is Evil needs to be really well thought out. Good when even badly writen is just bleh, boring but not disruptive. Evil on the other hand can be disruptive, and the hard part is creating those characters that are vibrant. When creating an 'evil' character, you often times have to start on the opposet side and ask 'Where is the light in the darkness here? What is the redeemable quallity of this character?' Brad came up with a really good one for Khorne. I almost expect him to also be this smiter of bullies, because if you are proclaiming to be strong and pushing the weak, then clearly you think you are a worthy challenge. And that's just not what most people focus on. They try to build a character as low as he can go, and after 2-3 sessions the character just feels absolutely trash, and it has the game fall apart because you are playing a caricature rather than a character. When you are playing an Evil that is in the 'Right' in their own mind, and is easily justifiable, playing with those slippery-slopes, you start gettting some interesting interactions.
1391839515

Edited 1391839543
The (most interesting) path to evil in 40k begins with hopes, dreams and aspirations, and is beset with the best intentions. The most interesting interpretations of the dark gods and their servants focus on their positive aspects, as Brad and Derek mention, but also their internal contradictions and their hypocrisy. You have a whole universe of concepts and vices and boiling emotions, but only four major chaos gods, they simply can not be as narrowly defined as they are often made out to be. Sadly BC subverts this line of thought by Speeehs Mareeens during character generation. And thanks to the vast majority of Chaos Space Marine fluff that means that unless the players pull some Alpha Legion level trickery that makes the plot of Primer look like a preschool theater production or you run a Horus Heresy style campaign, most stories with CSM will be trumped in complexity by most preschool theater productions. It's like Imperial Guard vs Tyranids. All the drama is melodrama, the only method of conflict resolution is last man standing, and you always know whom to cheer for and whom to hate. Only if this CSM fluff can be overcome (which the heavy combat focus of BC's rules doesn't really help with) or if your group agrees to leave the legion power armours in the closet will you get something fresh out of the setting. Something other than "Murder, Torture, Corruption, Excess, Destruction; By your powers combined I am Captain Chaos!" Of course you can play BC as a hack and slash adventure, and I really don't want to go around shouting "WRONGBADFUN" in peoples faces. I just find the other option much more intriguing.
"Murder, Torture, Corruption, Excess, Destruction; By your powers combined I am Captain Chaos!" Thank you for the laugh on that one, got a vivid mental image of he-man in power armor.
1391841898

Edited 1391841905
I find CSM can be equally complex in my experince, combining Legion politics with dark dealings and constant trading of favors to gain possible allies, all the while constantly looking over your shoulder for betrayal. I find it all rather exhilarating if done right.
I guess that is an option I kind of missed, Chaos infighting.and internal politics. It's probably because my knowledge of the legions is rather superficial... I would like to see that done, actually. It sounds rather a bit like high level or radical Dark Heresy where you keep running into people who are technically on your side... Technically.
I'd join a Black Crusade game, that'd be really interesting to play and the fun to be had would be magnificent
1391975275

Edited 1391975344
I played in a Black Crusade game for a while where we were defeating despots and ultimately saving worlds. We would conquer them for ourselves after, but we were basically heroes in that we weren't frothing bad men. The over arching plot was that we were chasing a prophesy and had to set things in motion so it could happen. That we were amoral psychos who were constantly opposing and manipulating one another really took a back seat in the field because we very much needed one another. For example, my Tzeentch marked human psyker was very bloody and killable. I needed to put up with the two Khorne aligned marines because they were very good and getting me not killed. I was at personal odds with our "rogue trader," but she had all those useful Fellowship skills that no one else had. And sure, the Heretek was kidnapping people in the night to perform horrid experiments on them, but he was kind of the only one who could keep our ship running. Another marine was our defacto leader, while I handled the supernatural crap we often had to deal with (and provided extra firepower in the form of very high-damage powers and buffing). If the option is on the table, I'd love to continue playing that psyker, though she has much XP and a disgustingly high Psy Rating.
That does sound like a cool game you had. A bit of a Genghis Khan thing, maybe? A legacy forged in blood, but at the same time reckognizing and embracing the value of artisans, scholars, culture, some basic human rights. But I'm afraid the only certain way of playing your psyker again is GMing and making her a major NPC. There is a very dire BC GM shortage on Roll20, and you really seem to value the same interpretations of the setting I do, so I'd love to be invited if you were to start a game. Surely your characters have disciples, underlings, distant allies and so on, and can hardly take care of all the issues in their ever expanding realm on their own. *hint hint*
Nico said: Surely your characters have disciples, underlings, distant allies and so on, and can hardly take care of all the issues in their ever expanding realm on their own. *hint hint* Hardly. My Fellowship wasn't even high enough to get a Disc of Tzeentch as a mount let alone disciples. I wouldn't be able to take on a game as GM right now. I've been wanting to run Black Crusade, but I'm not sure where to take it (the same issue I have with almost all games). Desire to run and adventure ideas are sadly two very different things.
Yeah, the requirements for minions are a bit on the high end, particularly combined with all the ways in which you can lose fellowship. What I was trying to suggest was picking up the game you talked about, with the former player characters as high level NPCs. Then imagining problems in and around their realm that they wouldn't have the time to deal with themselves. Enter a new group of new player characters with new adventures.
Sounds interestin though I like murderin things in the name of the Blood God and doing good as a follower of Khorne isn't something I'd be fond of.
Still have a vain hope that a potential GM might turn up if I just bump this topic just one more time.
huzzah
1392455681

Edited 1392456981
Black Crusade is one of the more interesting settings, for many reasons which were already mentioned here. Thematically, if I were to run something like a Black Crusade game, I would probably handle it like this: Firstly. It needs to be decided if this is a 'Space Marine' level event. There are few ways to tie in a coherent story where half are space marines and the other half are normal. It either marginalizes the true awe-inspiring nature of the Space Marines (chaotic or Deathwatch or otherwise) or marginalizes the relative 'normals'. You could probably do a Deathwatch kill team with an Ordos Xenos Inquisitor, and you could probably have a token heretic of some kind with a band of renegade marines. And that will enhance the story in some ways because the lone exception throws a greater emphasis on the unique themes. But I would never (and have never) allow, for example, an Inquisitor team with a space marine as part of his retinue. Some players embrace this kind of thematic clarity, some get very upset by it. But there's a reason Space Marines rarely (if ever) show up in say, Gaunt's Ghosts books. Secondly, It would probably be best approached from one of two main premises: A) You are all in service to the same Lord - and are most likely either all Khorne, all Slaanesh, or perhaps Chaos Undivided. If you were Space Marines, you would belong to the same Legion, unless Renegades. You are actively working to further his agenda. B) You are all antagonists - set against each other in some system of ever fluctuating demonic alliances and betrayals. Not unlike the Black Library book 'Daemon World' by Ben Counter. Thirdly, any prospective BC GM has to sit down and really get a handle on what kind of story they're going to run. I don't think Chaos as a theme lends itself well to the same kind of story structures that Inquisitors or Rogue Traders do. In many ways, Inquisitor is the easiest story to tell of all. Anyone that has read Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn or Ravenor series will know what to expect, and it's easy to put a characterful team together. Rogue Trader is a bit more diluted...It's a bit more about amassing resources and has the same freedom of Inquisitor but without the same laser-focused goals. It's a bit more introspective, and attempts at forcing action in the story can sometimes come off as strained unless part of an intricate and logical series of events. It's safer to say that Black Crusade is to Death Watch, what Rogue Trader is to Inquisitor. It's somewhat similar in that the focus is on the most crunchiest aspects of the 40k universe. At least if you're playing in groups where there are multiple Berserkers. But at the same time, Black Crusade suffers from not having the beautiful simplicity of a Death Watch campaign. I could run a great Death Watch campaign that was basically a series of episodic kill-team like encounters. Then there's down time between missions, and then onto the next. And if a character dies, he gets replaced, and if a character gets too absurdly powerful, he either returns to his Chapter or acts as a mentor. You can't really do that with Black Crusade. You need to find a hook that gives people an excuse to go after some greater objective and not have to fight the most realistically Chaotic response to any kind of 'team' friction which is 'Screw y'all, I'm goin home!' or else, a murderous fight to the death. So you need to either embrace that, or find an immediate reason why that's not the case. Finally, the one thing Black Crusade has going for it over all the others is that Chaos lends itself to the most epic kind of stories. Not that an Inquisitor team or a Deathwatch team can't get caught up in the death of a world or a major sector war...but it's hard to imagine a Chaos Space Marine or Arch Heretic involved in a scenario where at the very least, a planetary-level struggle isn't involved, just as a starting point. Combine that with the fact its essentially a skirmish-level game of a dozen miniatures or so at a time (at least in real life). It also depends what kind of Roll20 game you want to play. Are you expecting every game on Roll20 to be a maximum crunch fest with tokens, squares and dice and new terrain every session - or are players equally happy with having like a map up, and plotting various meta-strategic movies, and then zooming down into the face-to-face action when appropriate. There's also the fact that its impossible to run any kind of crunchy WH40k game with skype and webcam without it turning very jokey, very fast. Funny as all hell, yes. Particularly compelling story crafting...no. There is going to have to be an overarching story frame, too. You can't just drop players onto the grid with a mission briefing handout, ala Deathwatch, and have it all make perfect sense (i.e, Brother Ajax spent thirty cycles in meditation and cleaning his chainsword...He's ready to kill orks again). Black Crusade, to be compelling, requires at least an intricate a narrative as Rogue Trader. ----- TL;DNR - Black Crusade requires a greater thematic clarity and uniformity of expectations between players and GM, moreso than any other setting
Jonathan S. said: It's safer to say that Black Crusade is to Death Watch, what Rogue Trader is to Inquisitor. My initial impulse for making such a four way comparison is referencing Only War. Where you scale up the increased flexibility of character agendas and goals from DW to BC and DH to RT, I'd scale up moral complexity and difficult choices from OW/DW to DH/BC. Usually you face some xenos in a battle of annihilation in the former systems. That's about as clear cut as telling friend from foe can get. RT is a different beast, because it's usually still a heroic conqueror fantasy, even if you do heinous things for profit or convenience. But I certainly don't disagree with your comparison. Your TL;DNR definitely nails it. Before the character creation the BC gods have placed theme and goal formulation and group formation, settling on an expected power level (because BC can be very much a rocket tag system) and, as you put it, what type of Roll20 game everyone wants to play.
Well. I for one would be interested in playing BC. I just want to run around with nurglings on my shoulders, worshipping Nurgle, and BC is the only one of the settings that lets me do that. :)