Pathfnder (or 3.5 D&D) Monster Campaign Interest Check: LF(DM) + LF(P)

As you can read by the title, this Interest Check wouldn't be about your average campaign concerning some plucky group of "normal" adventurers going on run of the mill quests, looting for treasure, and rescuing princesses along the way. Instead, it'd be about a band of monsters (played by the players) who are fed up of such would-be adventurers. The monsters are usually bound together by common interests and fellowship for various reasons. Some of them want to rule or protect a given area (adventurers or bandits usually ransack their lairs/dungeons), some are minions to more powerful beings, some have been made societal outcasts,and some have even lost dear friends and family members murdered by monster-hunters for example. If this doesn't sound like your cup of tea, please move on and don't waste your breath debating in the thread. This is a serious inquiry that has been made with a lot of forethought. Once in a great while veteran players like myself get a little bit bored of the same old same old and want to do something different and exciting because innovative storytelling takes precedence over mechanical crunch or tradition. Monster campaigns like any tabletop campaign, CAN be fun and be played mechanically well as long as people are on the same page, don't abuse things, and can actually roleplay. There ARE official rules in Pathfinder & D&D for actually for how Monsters can be played together and how DM's can adjust challenges + encounters without making things seem too easy or difficult for such a non-traditional game. So basically to get this little shindig together, I'd like to find an experienced and willing DM who is creative enough to make a monster campaign that is both fun (not some one shot type of deal) but also mechanically balanced (ensure that the game is challenging and that PCs are close enough power wise enough to one another). Players will obviously need to be mature (at least enough to not power game and be civil), keen on roleplaying (this isn't about hack and slash and loot), and are somewhat experienced (sorry, but no noobs should be playing a monster campaign as their first). For me to play, I'd prefer if weekends and North American evenings were available (I'm GMT-6 or US Central time). Also, last but not least I'd prefer using Roll20 Microphones or Skype (no text-chat campaigns). For Monster PCs, we should keep things reasonable in terms of what can and can't be played and set a hard level (Monster campaigns shouldn't start out at too low of levels) and CR limit (to ensure that players are balanced). Generally normal characters have CRs (Challenge Ratings) equal to their total # of class levels. Monsters usually have their CRs spelled out for them in their bestiary (like a Satyr) or their respective template (a template is a stat block that is added onto a normal character or monster, like say if you wanted to make a half-dragon who is also an elf ). Monsters can either progress as stronger versions of themselves as they level up or they can just take classes to get better too. Pathfinder Links: <a href="http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html</a> Monsters as Player Character Rules <a href="http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.h" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.h</a>... Monster Advancement /Template Rules <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary" rel="nofollow">http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary</a> Bestiary (where you can look up monsters, though the paizo.com link has a bestiary section too if you look) <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/indexes-and-table" rel="nofollow">http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/indexes-and-table</a>... Template List (where you can look up templates by CR, but paizo.com has something similar too if you look) Also if Pathfinder doesn't catch anyone's interest, or if a volunteering DM is more comfortable with D&D 3.5 I may be privy to switching to that since it simply has more support in terms of flavor (more monsters, more items, more monster prestige classes, relevant feats). I can even provide rules, links, and maybe even PDF books for that. However I don't like how their goofy and broken their Level Adjustment system is (its too penalizing and arbitrary esp for a monster campaign - hence why Pathfinder doesn't use LA at all) and would recommend to at least borrowing Pathfinder's more stellar Monsters as Player Character Rules via using CR instead.

I like the idea , If You find a Person that can Do this or Room I would like to join i want to play some thing out of the normal and some thing that Make the other player and the gm Die in side when the character take shape .

I'd be interested aswell, and would also cast my vote for using 3.5 as the primary base ruleset with homebrew/substitutes where superior, such as the pathfinder PC monsters.

This is cool, though what monsters are we talking about? Humanoids are already in many in number, and if you open that up to other more interesting creatures well....its gonna be very interesting campaign. So what kind of creatures would you allow?

I would be interested as well. however I cast my vote for Pathfinder primary base ruleset and homebrew 3.5 ruleset where lacking. Overall the experience and utility of pathfinder characters is more solid in my opinion. Feats every other level rather than 3, more class features that make characters less usless when they arnt filling their niche, and a much simplier skill point system. Much of 3.5 and pathfinder are the same, but where they differ is often where pathfinder is superior imo, the only exception being some things in 3.5 that were fun cant be done in pathfinder. (Divine Metamagic, ect)

Monster rules would have to be simple to ensure fair play and viability. Non-humanoid monsters would be acceptable (want to be unicorn or dragon? Go for it), just make sure that they can work in actual gameplay. Here's a few specific rules at the top of my head. 1. Monsters must be intelligent and have wills of their own. That means no mindless zombies or dumb animals. (I.e, needs to have mental scores of 3 or higher). 2. Monsters need to be able to safely interact with parties and NPCs whether through talking or manipulating ones environment. That means things like no ghosts (they phase through everything and have an unfair advantage against corporeal creatures) or things like mummies that make being around them very dangerous (whether through deadly gaze abilities/auras or deadly instant touch-diseases like mummy rot for example). 3. Monsters need to be able to survive on land and be able to travel with the group. Aka, don't take something that can only live inside a stationary tree or underwater. 4. Pick a monster that is not unbeatable for regular play. While It can be hard to put down, but make sure that is has weaknesses or some way of being harmed so that the DM can plan encounters appropriately. For example, Werewolves can be tough as nails but silver is a game changer. 5. Monster PCs are not standard adventurers and therefore shouldn't care much about loot or gold (statistically they seldom need them and dealing with merchants is a problem) unless they prove means to an end or a way of showing off (like a dragon's horde). The party should think more about pimping out a dungeon or fortress as their lair rather than buying junk like +2 Flaming swords. 6. Pick a monster that plays well with others, or can at least try not to be disruptive to the overall game. Even if you pick with something horribly evil, like a Half-Fiend or full fledged demon - make sure the have enough in the way of ambitions, maturity, and personality so that they don't run around all the time betraying their party members or destroying everything in sight.

After reading things through and seeing Rin's post, I'd have to agree - Pathfinder is probably the better and more balanced bet to run a monster campaign. Yet worry not those who prefer 3.5. Pathfinder is stated to be "backwards compatible" so a lot of items, feats, and other features from 3.5 can be integrated into a Pathfinder game if they really need them. However a word of caution is that since a lot of 3.5 things were utterly broken, some caution and restraint should be used so people don't try to imbalance the game. Transferring things over should mostly be about making the Monsters more playable (like dragon feats or items) or to flesh out some things for classes that Pathfinder is lacking (like Divine Metamagic), instead of trying to optimize and break the campaign. As for what level to recommend, I'd recommend something mid-campaign like Level 8. That would open up the roster to a good amount of standard monsters. So someone could start out as a CR 8 monster flat out, or could be a lower CR monster with class or racial levels tacked on to match CR 8.

Shah said: Monster rules would have to be simple to ensure fair play and viability. Non-humanoid monsters would be acceptable (want to be unicorn or dragon? Go for it), just make sure that they can work in actual gameplay. Here's a few specific rules at the top of my head. 1. Monsters must be intelligent and have wills of their own. That means no mindless zombies or dumb animals. (I.e, needs to have mental scores of 3 or higher). 2. Monsters need to be able to safely interact with parties and NPCs whether through talking or manipulating ones environment. That means things like no ghosts (they phase through everything and have an unfair advantage against corporeal creatures) or things like mummies that make being around them very dangerous (whether through deadly gaze abilities/auras or deadly instant touch-diseases like mummy rot for example). 3. Monsters need to be able to survive on land and be able to travel with the group. Aka, don't take something that can only live inside a stationary tree or underwater. 4. Pick a monster that is not unbeatable for regular play. While It can be hard to put down, but make sure that is has weaknesses or some way of being harmed so that the DM can plan encounters appropriately. For example, Werewolves can be tough as nails but silver is a game changer. 5. Monster PCs are not standard adventurers and therefore shouldn't care much about loot or gold (statistically they seldom need them and dealing with merchants is a problem) unless they prove means to an end or a way of showing off (like a dragon's horde). The party should think more about pimping out a dungeon or fortress as their lair rather than buying junk like +2 Flaming swords. 6. Pick a monster that plays well with others, or can at least try not to be disruptive to the overall game. Even if you pick with something horribly evil, like a Half-Fiend or full fledged demon - make sure the have enough in the way of ambitions, maturity, and personality so that they don't run around all the time betraying their party members or destroying everything in sight. If you could maybe make a list of okay'd creature types, that would be great. Basically Monstrous Humanoid yes, Magical Beast yes, Aberration Yes, Vermin No.... something like that. Also Demons/Devils are apparently fine? That puts things onto a whole new level.

Types are easy in narrowing. However me listing just types won't really say whether or not if a particular monster is really playable/fit for a campaign. Also I don't see why some Demons/Devils or other outsiders like genies wouldn't be fine (as long as their CR is appropriate/not too high). Yeah, on paper they have a lot of strengths but they have weaknesses too that balance them out. Enemies could always try to banish or bind them (not to forget true names), and they're very susceptible to certain spells, items, or smites. Also most outsiders (except for natives to the material plane like Tieflings or Half-Fiends) are much harder to resurrect and require major level spells to pull that off since they require wish or miracle spells. Me personally I am probably going to app for a vampire template stacked onto a normal race and progress the difference in CR with character levels. Paizo, the maker of Pathfinder released an official book on how to make that work and I am keenly interested in play-testing that out. Aberrations Dragons Fey Humanoids Magical Beasts Monstrous Humanoids Outsiders Undead <a href="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatu" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatu</a>... (Full on explainations of different types here)

I was more balking at Devils/Demons because they have a very very narrow, personal agenda that is completely unique to them and doesn't really work with the whole cooperation aspect, since they usually don't cooperate with anything beyond their own race. Also looking at the above list, what about Constructs and Elementals?

Yeah, it depends on the specific Devils/Demons really since each entry has their own personality description. A scant few can work in the mortal plane though if you find them like Incubus or Erineyes, etc. However honestly half-fiends would be a better option IMO anyways in terms of building something for the long-term and not being restricted or self-interested like full fiends. As for constructs, I left them out for various reasons such as most being mindless, they are artificially made, are minions, are too durable and can't heal naturally. There might be a few exceptions but I'm not going to take the time to point that out since a majority were iffy - if someone can find a construct that would work then yeah - common sense would say to go for itAs for elementals, elementals are a subtype for various main types (theres elemental outsiders and elemental fey for example).