Roll20 uses cookies to improve your experience on our site. Cookies enable you to enjoy certain features, social sharing functionality, and tailor message and display ads to your interests on our site and others. They also help us understand how our site is being used. By continuing to use our site, you consent to our use of cookies. Update your cookie preferences .
×
Create a free account
This post has been closed. You can still view previous posts, but you can't post any new replies.

New Update 6/1: Drawing Tools Overhaul

1338547118
Riley D.
Roll20 Team
There's a new update out this morning, the main change is the complete overhaul of the drawing tools based on your feedback. We tried to do our best to find a solution that balanced people using the drawing tools for battle planning/sketching, with those using it for drawing maps, with those using it to do things like set up complicated boards for RPG systems like FATE. We still consider this a "work in progress", so do let us know your thoughts on what changes were good and what still needs work. First off, a quick definition. When we talk about "drawings" below, we mean drawings made with the brush (squares, circles, etc.), as well as text created by the text tool and any images that you choose to treat as drawings instead of tokens. The main highlights: - There is now only one drawing tool, the "Brush" tool. The Rectangle tool has been folded into this (note that any rectangles in current campaigns will continue to function the "old way" under the normal Selection tool). Now, by default you'll draw freehand drawings. If you hold down the Shift key, you'll draw straight lines (snapped to the grid if you have a square grid enabled). If you hold the Alt key, you'll draw ellipses. And if you hold Shift+Alt, you'll draw circles. After the drawing is complete, you are free to move and resize it as before. - The Brush tool allows you to choose both a stroke color (which defaults on the tokens layer to your player color) and a fill color (which defaults to transparent). So you can draw lines, filled boxes, circles, filled circles, etc., etc. You can also now choose the width of the lines that the brush tool draws. You can also choose all of these options before you start drawing, as well as after the drawing is on the page when you select it. - The drawings and tokens have now been separated. You can still use the same 3 layers for each, but the default selection tool will now not select drawings. Instead there is a separate drawings selection tool in the drawings menu on the toolbar. You can switch between the two quickly by using Cmd/Ctrl+S (for Select tool) and Cmd/Ctrl+D (for the Draw tool). - You can now choose to treat images (that you upload, or from the Art Library) as either a token or a drawing. By default all images added while you are using the normal select tool will be added as tokens, those added while using the drawing select tool will be drawings. You can toggle back and forth by right-clicking on the image and selecting "Advanced -> Is Drawing". Basically, a drawing will not have a radial menu or a settings dialog box. It will also be able to be grouped with other drawings (like text). - There is now a "Clear" button in the drawings menu on the toolbar which will delete all drawings on the current layer. (You have to confirm this with a Dialog box pop-up). - The text tool has also been completely overhauled. You can now choose the font, size, and color of the text before, during, and after you use the text tool. Multiline text is now fully supported (it will no longer break up into separate boxes). - You can now group multiple elements together. Just highlight them, right-click, and choose "Advanced -> Group" from the menu. Whenever you select one grouped element, all of them will be selected. This allows you to move them all together. It should also make it possible to create a "board notecard" by drawing a box, writing text on top of the box, then grouping the two elements together. - You can now copy/paste drawings. - Players now have access to the brush tool as well as the text tool. They will be able to edit/move any drawings and text which they have created. We're planning in the future to add a way for the GM to allow players to edit/move drawings the same way that they can assign control of tokens. Other non-drawing-related improvements: - You can now use the right-click menu when you have multiple objects selected. - There is now a "Shortcuts Reference" popup available, it's in the same menu as the Help menu (last button on the toolbar). - Note that the "Switch to GM Layer" shortcut has changed from G to K! - Mentors (including Benefactors and Game Masters) should now see their plan name as "Mentor" in the My Account page. In addition their quota should successfully show as "1,000 MB". Everyone else should show "Free" as the plan name with a quota of 100MB. - Your public profile page will now contain a badge showing at what level you pledged to the Kickstarter campaign.
1338547629
Deightine
KS Backer
Sheet Author
Bravo, Riley! ...time to disappear into messing with the new toys. The drawing/token separation and right-clickable groups were fantastic ideas. Just made some of my mapping far easier to deal with.
One question ( for now ). I might have missed the reason, but why did switch to GM move from G to K?
One question ( for now ). Sounds ominous. Because Ctrl/Cmd+G is now for the Text tool. So now S,D,F,G are used for switching between Select, Draw Select, Brush, and Text, respectively. O,K,M switch between layers. And they're all grouped in the same area on my keyboard now :-) - RD
Hot diggity daffodil. Looks good to me. Let's see how badly my guys can abuse/break it tonight :) Just out of curiosity, are the drawings still vector? they don't seem very "raster-y" to me.
Yes, they're still vector.
1338568848
Ezra
KS Backer
Well done! Next game is in another weeks, I'm sure everyone will enjoy testing out how the new drawing tool does at portraying male and female body parts. And I'll enjoy the delete all button. =)
I houseruled that any "strange" amorphous objects that appear on the map are gelatinous cubes. They stopped doodling as much after that :D
1338571660
Ezra
KS Backer
LOL good idea.
Sounds fab! I'm off to build poker chips that don't have a radial menu and a baize-covered gaming table on which the outlined rectangles aren't filled with green paint. Edited to add: poker chips sans radial menu had better wait on drawings that character-players can move.
I houseruled that any "strange" amorphous objects that appear on the map are gelatinous cubes. They stopped doodling as much after that :D Yesssssssssss.
Overall, I really like the new tools; thanks for making many of my games possible. With that out of the way :P, here are a few things I noticed. 1. Old rectangles seem to count as tokens for the purpose of selecting and grouping, but because they aren't really tokens, I can't convert them to drawings, so I can't use them to group with the text that they support. It's a pretty minor thing, as going forward there won't be any more 'old rectangles', but it means that I have to redo a few things. 2. I really like that the straight lines can follow the square grid. Makes it easy to outline buildings and other features when using a grid. However, when ~not~ using a grid, it confuses me a little bit that the straight line drawing still follows whatever the grid would be, were it turned on. Would it be possible to draw straight lines of arbitrary length and orientation? 3. Related to number 2. Even with a hex grid, the straight lines follow what would be the square grid, if the square grid had been chosen instead of hex. Not sure if 'follow the hex' was ever the goal, but, I could see it being a nifty feature for hex-based games. EDIT: After playing around a few more times, here are a few more observations. 4. When copy-pasting a grouped drawing (text + background), the text seems to like to fall behind the background image, requiring that the background be un-grouped, sent to the back, then the text selected and regrouped. 5. I have experienced a weird thing where by some members of the group sometimes move out of sync for just a split second (e.g. text would shift off its rectangle). I'm still trying to find a way to reliably reproduce it; but I thought I'd make the issue known. 6. Also with copy-pasting grouped objects: it seems that sometimes the groups get mixed up when pasting. For example: Copying Text_A and Background_A to create Text_B and Background_B. When I do the paste, the drawings are all copied as expected, except that now Background_B is grouped with Text_A, while Text_B and Background_A are left group-less. EDIT (again): 7. When currently editing a text-object, pressing 'ctrl-s' to move to select mode instead brings up a save file dialog, 'ctrl-d' bookmarks the page, and 'ctrl-f' opens Chrome's 'search for text' box. Maybe this is just a chrome thing, I'm not sure.
Edited to add: poker chips sans radial menu had better wait on drawings that character-players can move. That should be coming super-soon, because that is exactly what we want you to do with the "images as drawings" feature.
1. Old rectangles seem to count as tokens for the purpose of selecting and grouping, but because they aren't really tokens, I can't convert them to drawings, so I can't use them to group with the text that they support. It's a pretty minor thing, as going forward there won't be any more 'old rectangles', but it means that I have to redo a few things. Sadly, yes. They are two completely different types of things, so unfortunately you'll have to re-do any existing rectangles that you want to group with new drawings. Sorry! 2. I really like that the straight lines can follow the square grid. Makes it easy to outline buildings and other features when using a grid. However, when ~not~ using a grid, it confuses me a little bit that the straight line drawing still follows whatever the grid would be, were it turned on. Would it be possible to draw straight lines of arbitrary length and orientation? 3. Related to number 2. Even with a hex grid, the straight lines follow what would be the square grid, if the square grid had been chosen instead of hex. Not sure if 'follow the hex' was ever the goal, but, I could see it being a nifty feature for hex-based games. Yeah, I'm not really happy with the way that works yet, either. Honestly, here's what I'm considering doing: making the Shift+Brush tool just draw a rectangle similar to the way it just draws a circle (then you just drag to resize and let go). This would also solve the issue of the phantom corner in your other post. Then, I would add a separate polygon tool (one of the ones where you click, then move to the next point and click, then eventually circle back around (or not, if you just want to draw a straight line) and close off your polygon. That would work much better without a grid, and probably could follow the hex grid to some degree as well. Thoughts? EDIT: After playing around a few more times, here are a few more observations. 4. When copy-pasting a grouped drawing (text + background), the text seems to like to fall behind the background image, requiring that the background be un-grouped, sent to the back, then the text selected and regrouped. Re-doing copying+pasting of groups is on my to-do list. Same thing with #6. 5. I have experienced a weird thing where by some members of the group sometimes move out of sync for just a split second (e.g. text would shift off its rectangle). I'm still trying to find a way to reliably reproduce it; but I thought I'd make the issue known. Hmmmm...I would be interested if you could track that down. Because the group selection+moving is the same as the normal selection+moving of multiple objects, so in theory if it's happening with groups it would be happening anytime you move multiple things at the same time... 7. When currently editing a text-object, pressing 'ctrl-s' to move to select mode instead brings up a save file dialog, 'ctrl-d' bookmarks the page, and 'ctrl-f' opens Chrome's 'search for text' box. Maybe this is just a chrome thing, I'm not sure. Yep, I'm aware of that. Doing shortcuts in browsers is notoriously difficult, because there's no good way to just override all the keyboard stuff. But it's on my to-do list to fix that particular use case, because it drives me crazy as well...
I just ran into some weird problem: I can only add tokens from one page to the turn tracker. On all other pages, the tokens wont take a turn, but the turn tracker still has the tokens from the one working page.
I just ran into some weird problem: I can only add tokens from one page to the turn tracker. On all other pages, the tokens wont take a turn, but the turn tracker still has the tokens from the one working page. Well, I can say that this is "working as intended." Why do you want to add tokens from multiple pages?
Also, I just pushed out an update that should hopefully address some of Balladeer's points above, specifically: - Ctrl+S and Ctrl+D should now work while using the text tool. - When copying + pasting groups, the newly copy+pasted items will now correctly create a new group that they join, instead of randomly grouping with the original items. - When copying+pasting multiple items, the items should now stay in their same relative positions, rather the whole group will be offset. - Images treated as drawings no longer snap to grid, which should make their use as part of a drawing group work much better (since before when you moved the group the images would snap to grid if you had a grid enabled).
Thanks for the update; copy-pasted groups seem to be working much better. Quick note, the size of the outline on shapes doesn't appear to be preserved upon pasting.
Oh also, not sure if I mentioned this, but if you hold Alt while selecting something you'll only select that one thing even if it's in a group.
I like the alt-move thing. Works great on Windows 7. Not so much on Ubuntu 12.04, though :( It looks like 'alt' is focusing on the current window, so that alt-dragging actually moves the current window. Probably related to the new UI that Ubuntu is using. EDIT: Same behavior on Firefox and Chromium while using Ubuntu, so I'm pretty sure it's an OS thing, not a browser thing.
Darn. I'll see if there's some way to overwrite that, but I'm not hopeful. This is why doing keyboard shortcuts in browsers is terrible.
1338651758
Deightine
KS Backer
Sheet Author
I tried it on my Ubu' box too, and I'm noticing the same. It is definitely not the browsers... it's the windows manager that is doing it. It looks like one of the Unity functions... and after looking up the hotlist, Alt does a -lot- of things in Unity. <a href="http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/what-are-unitys-keyboard-and-mouse-shortcuts" rel="nofollow">http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/what-are-unitys-keyboard-and-mouse-shortcuts</a> For those of us Ubuntu users... This is a solution. Not the best, but one that works. The first confines the Unity actions to just your Right-Alt, leaving your Left-Alt to work as normal for most things. For the HUD: <a href="http://askubuntu.com/questions/122209/how-do-i-modify-or-disable-the-huds-use-of-the-alt-key" rel="nofollow">http://askubuntu.com/questions/122209/how-do-i-modify-or-disable-the-huds-use-of-the-alt-key</a> This one is for changing your Alt+Mouse Combo: <a href="http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10659621&postcount=3" rel="nofollow">http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10659621&postcount=3</a> Riley? Looks like we just found an entry for your "Specific Systems" section of the Help page.
Heh, that was intended for specific *RPG* systems, but I should add an article on "Linux Tips" in the Troubleshooting section, for sure. Thanks!
Thanks for the links, Deightine. After moving the HUD to right-alt and finding that the problem persisted, it looks to me like the issue is that alt is in the difference between: Tap Alt - Opens the HUD Hold Alt - Reveals application menu The HUD only shows up with right Alt now, but holding left alt (as I would to move an object in Roll20) still shows the application menu (File, Edit, etc). Were you able to get the alt-move to work, Deightine? It could very well be that I've done something wrong on my end.
1338653046
Deightine
KS Backer
Sheet Author
And... I can confirm that the second solution, using gconf-editor to set 'mouse_button_modifier' to anything other than , just fixed the problem for me. I'm drawing ellipses now. This stuff always takes some tweaking, unfortunately. With great linux modifiability comes... well... moments where you have to modify it to do anything. Edit: It'll still open up the ALT+ File menus, etc, but only if you hold Alt and press a lettered key. So for the most part, this should function.
Draw a point with a single click. Currently I have to click and drag to make a mark. I often need players to designate tokens in quick succession (for an AOE and rolling vs each monster). Letting them just do a single click and have a point appear when drawing would be quite handy.
And... I can confirm that the second solution, using gconf-editor to set 'mouse_button_modifier' to anything other than , just fixed the problem for me. I'm drawing ellipses now. This stuff always takes some tweaking, unfortunately. With great linux modifiability comes... well... moments where you have to modify it to do anything. Edit: It'll still open up the ALT+ File menus, etc, but only if you hold Alt and press a lettered key. So for the most part, this should function. Many thanks, Deightine. The second solution you posted worked; I can now alt-move to my heart's content.
I just ran into some weird problem: I can only add tokens from one page to the turn tracker. On all other pages, the tokens wont take a turn, but the turn tracker still has the tokens from the one working page. Well, I can say that this is "working as intended." Why do you want to add tokens from multiple pages? <a href="http://youtu.be/9NGXr4qkU1g" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/9NGXr4qkU1g</a>
<a href="http://youtu.be/9NGXr4qkU1g" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/9NGXr4qkU1g</a> Thanks for the video, Henry. I guess I'm wondering more, "Can you tell me *why* from a gameplay perspective you're adding tokens from more than one page to have a turn?" Like, what is the in-game reason? Since players can only see one page at a time, I guess I assumed you would only ever want to track turns from one page a time, since it doesn't make sense to show players turns of things that aren't even a part of the current encounter. That being said, if there's a reason I haven't thought of, we can talk about changing it. I just want to make sure I understand the reasoning behind making the change (and also to make sure there isn't a use case out there I'm unaware of that would affect other things besides just the Turn Tracker).
Oh, I don't need tokens from multiple pages, I'd be perfectly fine with just tokens from the current page. If only I could get them into the tracker...
Oh, I see. So only one page actually lets you add tokens to the turn tracker... I went and did a little testing; I think the behavior is this: only tokens from the page that the turn tracker was opened on can be added to the tracker. If you move to a new page, the tracker needs to be closed, then reopened. This opens an empty tracker that accepts tokens from the new page. Going back to the previous page requires the same closing and opening of the turn tracker, which means that you can't store multiple different turn-tracker lists on different pages; you have to recreate the turn list each time you switch pages. Not sure if that's the desired behavior of the turn tracker, but it looks to be how it currently operates.
Yeah I ran into that as well. I went through and setup (well I thought at least) ~ 6 pages of encounters and filled out the turn tracker for each page. I later went to go use the first page and realized that each time I set it up for a new page it cleared out the others. I'd love to have TT be a page scoped thing. Though we're getting slightly OT here, should we create a new thread to talk about Turn Tracker scoping?
Though we're getting slightly OT here, should we create a new thread to talk about Turn Tracker scoping? That would be good :-)
Turn Tracker Scoping Discussion: <a href="http://community.roll20.net/discussion/550/turn-tracker-cross-page-usage-ideas" rel="nofollow">http://community.roll20.net/discussion/550/turn-tracker-cross-page-usage-ideas</a>
It'd be nice if it was easier to group tokens with text. It's the easiest way I've seen to handle temporary aspects in Fate.
there's keyboard shortcuts for the rectangle, circle, etc tools? That's nice, but having not known that last night when I tried the tool, why not put a tool selection for pen, line, rectangle, circle like just about every other drawing app? Put the choices in a drop-down list with icons if space is a problem.
Janx raises an important point. As the feature set grows, the user interface is becoming opaque, the app arcane.
I'll make a note of this @Janx and @Agemegos but I just want to clarify to make sure that I'm getting it right: You'd like either a drop down tool selection, or flyout buttons to pick the different drawing tools in addition to the keyboard shortcuts that are currently present? Thanks
Yes. The stuff with keys is too arcane, the possibilities being not visible to the user. The app is becoming difficult to use without a manual, in contrast to the simple and immediately-accessible qualities for which it earned praise in the first week. There is getting to be too much invisible capability.
Besides, the mnemonic qualities of the command-key combinations are getting to be hard to keep track of. New and casual users are going to find these tools forbidding without menu-based alternatives. Which reminds me to remind you that giving the ALT key an effect in Brush that is the reverse of its effect in Select is pretty counter-intuitive.
I'll make a note of this @Janx and @Agemegos but I just want to clarify to make sure that I'm getting it right: You'd like either a drop down tool selection, or flyout buttons to pick the different drawing tools in addition to the keyboard shortcuts that are currently present? Thanks One visible UI mechanism or the other is fine. From what I see in the UI, I click the draw icon (and I recommend changing that icon to be more pen/drawing like than the arrow-ish one which is too much like the selector arrow icon at the top of that menu) and a fly-out menu already appears for draw, text, and something else. Seems like a natural place to put the other choices for line draw, circle, etc. Since it's a fly-out menu, it's not taking up any real estate during basic usage and post-selection it disappears. UI101 is that every feature must be accessible through the visible interfaces. If a feature can only be used by knowing a secret keypress (holding Shift while drawing), that violates the principle. If the feature is under a sub-menu of a button on the screen, then that does not violate the principle. See the fine book About Face for more on the topic. I can tell you guys have a keen eye for UI, but I can still sense some trouble-spots. I would add that as the feature set gets larger, the amount of space needed on screen for these visible interfaces increases. That's what agemegos is warning about through these threads. Sub-menus and such help (like the fly-outs you use on the left vertical button bar). The risk is, more features are eating up real-estate for the main apps actual function (showing video chats, table space and chat window). I'm drifting in topic, but you may want to consider tightening up the spacing and layout of all the UI controls. The left vertical button bar (what is that thing called?) has a gap from the left most edge of the browser window which wastes screen real estate. You could kill all border gaps (I know some artsy GUI guys like border margins, but I like pixels for workspace better) and make that button bar extend the entire length of the left edge of the screen (excepting the video chat space). This would give you a longer button bar with room for more buttons, and expose more usable space in the center by killing the gap between the left window edge and the button bar. As for the keyboard shortcuts. Those are nice, once I read about them here. I'd keep them in, and include them in documentation under keyboard short-cuts. For the different pen modes, after I select one mode, you could keep the same keypresses for the other modes, except replacing the current mode with the "missing mode", So if in free-draw mode the Shift does lines, then in line mode, the Shift does free-draw instead. The other modes still use the same keypresses.
Janx++ I'd also like some changes. Submenus are fine for functions you don't need all the time. Otherwise they just take time (and clicks) to open. For roll20, I'd say expanding palettes are the way to do. You expand your drawing tools, and they stay visible until you close them. So you will always have all the tools visible you need, even if they are in different palettes, and at the same time conserve screen space because you only have thos expanded you really need. I think I should make a mock-up...
Here's a mock-up. The top line is a menu bar with some palettes expanded, the second row is the same menu with all palettes collapsed. (I didn't clean up the images, so just ignore the extra pixels around the icons.) PS: I painted the mock-up horizontally, but with the exception of the zoom-drop-down it'll work the same vertically.