Interest Check: D&D 3.5 Specially Themed Campaign

Hey, I am Tyler. I've been hosting a bit of some D&D before but now I wish to expand some thoughts on creative levels instead of this medieval-esqe kind of campaign. The idea for this was a bit more broad but it was going to be this sort of homebrewed 3.5 campaign in events of an apocalypse. Yes that's right I am pulling out the Fallout and pasting it into a 3.5 format. The thing is though it is not going to be much like Fallout except for the environment. The weapons will remain the same with some added in details as well as the Enemies and NPCs. What's the catch to this campaign? Well I hate how some DM's will restrict it to the core, it's not really fun and creative in a sense. (So I am going to do that in a different direction.) This campaign I will limit some players on some other, unique races from some races I have found over a course of a few months that will be listed to players I select in due time. For now I want just the interest of the idea since there will be a bit of homebrew from something I have concocted over the course of time. Features such as: Weapon Degrading, Muskets And Flintlock Pistols, Starvation, etc. I want to make this experience feel like players are in an apocalypse where the world around them will be rough. For now it's an idea and probably won't be started for quite a bit, but for now I want to know who would actively like to take part in this idea? Some ETA is available and might be within a a month or two if things go smoothly with planning. My plan is to have it sometime during the weekday. As for time itself it is not sure yet. ISSUES STILL TO WORK WITH: - Cleric/Druid spell issue - Mapping and all that stuff - A few new homebrew rules that still need to be worked with a tiny bit more - Bits and bobs

The only thing I can see as derailing the intended "feel" you are going for, is that a few simple spells take the survival aspect out of it. Create water is a level 0 spell for clerics and druids, and makes 2 gallons/ level. Create Food and Water is a level 3 cleric spell. Bland food, but food. Goodberry , a level 1 druid spell, is as nourishing as a meal. Unless you chop the divine magic users back ALOT, druids and clerics will be the go to people for survival. And the higher level you go, the worse this gets. Summon efreeti/genie for wishes, Heroes Feast spells, Rings of Sustenance are dirt cheap,Everlasting Rations are only 350 gp, same with clear Ioun Stones.A high level caster could just Gate in herd of celestial Cattle, Magic Jar posses creatures and walk them to the kitchen for prep... There are many ways for the PC's to just not care about the fact that its the apocalypse, and they are short on food and water. Because they dont have issues with this, though the general populace does. Druids could also go the farmer route, and using spells to enhance plant growth, allow crops to grow much easier. Id still love to play in this type of group, just informing you of difficulties I could forsee with trying to play it Fallout style. Pretty much if you have a druid and a cleric in the party, you just dont CARE that everything around you is a wasteland.

That was actually my next point to be honest and one of the things I was working on, as said this will be a while before I actually post the official game itself because I am running through exploits to what could cause this to all collapse on itself and ruin just the feel for needing survival. One of my poor ideas was to cut druids and clerics in general, not sure if I will go through with that. One of my many other ideas was that alchemical ingredients as well as rituals were burned as well as some arcane people trying to stop the bloodline. But As said I am trying not to be strict on the class system, if worse comes to worse I might have to just ban magical classes like sorcerers, druids, clerics, etc. and remove a wide chunk of alchemical spells and such.

I would be interested. depending on day and time. I ran a short game like this once. Spells like create water can still be included, but need to be tweeked. Instead of a few gallons have it create about a cup, and only have it work once a day. After all that water comes from somewhere, if water is scarce then the spell would suffer. Much of the game balance comes from magic classes, (buffs, magic weapons, ect) getting rid of them may play havoc in ways you may not realize.

Peg me interested based on date and time, also regardless if I can play I would be willing to help you with the world, I have played/run low and no magic worlds before.

Definitely interested depending on day and time. Also have a friend who is interested

Nestor said: I would be interested. depending on day and time. I ran a short game like this once. Spells like create water can still be included, but need to be tweeked. Instead of a few gallons have it create about a cup, and only have it work once a day. After all that water comes from somewhere, if water is scarce then the spell would suffer. Much of the game balance comes from magic classes, (buffs, magic weapons, ect) getting rid of them may play havoc in ways you may not realize. Which is exactly why I wont be trying to remove them but that idea is alright. My adjustment would be that it would only be a cup per day and end up taking from the world itself. But yes I have realized the catastrophic backfires that would happen taking out some of the classes that did involve magic. But again my goal is to balance them to have to survive like everyone else without taking away their unique balance to the group. My main focus is making sure the Druids and Clerics won't be a problem to the environment and the campaign. I am sure there are possibly more exploits any general player could use but for now the threat I see majorly is the Clerics and Druids and maybe even beyond that.

You might try Gamma World, which uses the d20 rule mechanics for just what you are looking for, Tyler. It is built for exactly this kind of feel, including psionics and nanotechnology that could double as magic and mutants for your various races. Alternatively, if you want to keep explicit magic in the world, try Rifts (or better yet, Chaos Earth for a just recently fallen world). Those are different system, but very tailored to the post-apocalypse. I think all of these are valid ways to go. On the flip side, if you are going for simply the fall of a fantasy world, where technology never took hold and something else wiped the world (or nearly did so), then I would simply up the level of every creation spell, regardless of what it creates, two or three levels. Makes it easier if you just say that such magic in the world has become tainted and takes significantly more effort. Those are my suggestions, Tyler. Depending on the time and day, I might be game.

I appreciate the suggestions honestly. However I want to try and keep myself to the D&D 3.5 system with some homebrew add-ons mostly because it is the system I was trying to target because to be honest it was either space bazookas or modified muskets and flintlock pistols in mechanical ways (not in a way possibly thought, more so just slightly advancing from the regular 1859 musket). My main idea was yes, a fall of a fantasy world since I think it would be some new grounds to try and walk upon. I am sure someone else, probably a lot of DM's have tried in the past, but I would like to try and see how well this will go. Cause honestly I am a bit tired of the fantasy world not having it's share of a catastrophic war. Some homebrew stuff is in the works still and I am looking mostly into exploits at the moment so I can't give an exact date, more so an estimate in about a month or two, possibly three

The only issue with changing what the spells actually produce, is that they no longer accurately reflect a spell of that level. Create Food/Water is no longer a 3rd level spell if it creates significantly less than it is supposed to. I feel the best way to handle this is to actually leave it alone. The primary offenders are all tier 1 casters. If they have to constantly prepare spells for basic survival, those are slots reserved they can no longer prepare other things in, thus bringing the tiers 1's down a notch. Just limit magic items that create food/water except as rare and powerful found treasure. Flasks of endless water and everlasting trail rations suddenly become extremely valuable, and the party would likely be attacked just for owning one, as bandits seek to steal the item from them.

You can use the fact that the party CAN survive by creating its own food as a plot hook, having raiders constantly seeking to kidnap them. Or making tough moral dilemmas. Does the party stay and try to help save them townspeople by providing conjured food/water, or do they push on to their time sensitive mission? What does a good aligned party do when they are suddenly mobbed by townsfolk, quickly becoming violent, all because they have food?

Even if you look at a high level example, say 10th level. One casting of Create Water makes 20 gallons.. Thats a single bath. Maybe a few showers if rationed right and a proper apparatus. Stinky parties can be detected by scent MUCH easier. How long do you think it will take for the party to suddenly dedicate time to bathing when they are being sniffed out by Big Bad Monster they can barely survive? You have to play this that not every monster they come across is killable. Always provide an escape route unless the party gets themselves into it. Increase the DC of Survival checks to find sustenance. The one MAJOR downside to all this, is suddenly DnD becomes accounting 101, as you have to micromanage your gear. No one finds fun in that. SO you have to find a way to balance that. One way would to change the format slightly. No longer would you have the group be a roving band of adventurers. The party would have a base of operations, a few NPC's ( GM run ) that manage the small groups resources, and you would just tell them "The bunker only has a week left of food, and water is running low, maybe 3 days worth left if rationed" The group can spend a day or two casting create water to help shore up the water reserves, but NONE of the conjured food ive found lasts long unless eaten immediately. Goodberry is the only exception, and its on a timer of 1 day/level. So say a 3rd level druid manages to spend 1 day casting nothing but goodberry for the bunker. That means he has 2 days to go search for another food source before they go bad. This would lead into short forays and skirmish style play. Tracking becomes paramount, and the undead/oozes/constructs are even WORSE, as they are inedible. The team has to go out, seize food from bandits/other refugees ( based on what you allow for party alignment ) and quickly return. Or quickly track down monsters that are a suitable food source ( hard to eat a red dragon, or any other fire immune monster since it cant be cooked ) Or you could have them running tower defense style for the communities meager crops. Scouting out potential threats, Deciding if its worth assaulting the group for its resources, or whether diplomatic means are better ( or possible at all! ) Now we get into technology aspect. Lets put the group near the ocean, so they have a reliable source of food and water. Water needs to be purified though, as salt water is undrinkable. So you either need a large volume of wood or coal, or other combustible materials. Have the party run guard duty on a lumber gathering expedition, or seeking out the nearby dwarves to either steal or negotiate for coal. Negotiation opens up other avenues. What do the dwarves need in order to provide significant material benefit to the ragtag group of survivors nearby? This sounds like QUEST material. All these are various ways to handle these matters without actually restricting the party in any way, nor requiring more accounting than what they need for that specific journey. (aka, we need 1 weeks worth of food/water to complete said task. Water isnt too big an issue usually, its FOOD that becomes a problem. You can eat certain monsters, but clearing the undead out means maybe even having to setup a forward base camp somewhere, somewhere to return to each nice surrounded by the safety of a palisade and some loyal friends/guards) Motivation then becomes a major challenge. WHY does the party keep doing this? Why do they support these chumps and leech NPC's? This is the one I dont have an easy answer for. Good aligned players likely do this because they feel they should. Neutral players need some sort of incentive. Why risk their neck constantly for everyone else? Even good players start to think this eventually. SO you have to come up with something other than monetary incentive ( as money is near worthless in this type of setting ) to give the party a reason to keep risking life and limb for others. This is going to be a MAJOR plot item, usually world spanning. Maybe someone in the fledgling town has a map they are desperately working to decipher, leading to a dragons horde ( who had stored his trove in various locations instead of one ). Maybe its a map to a series of vaults of technology and magic. Regardless of what it is, it has to be both big enough to be a defining and long lasting reason, yet small enough to parcel out in pieces to the players.

The thing is the players are already a part of a somewhat colonized union of people that are trying to restart the world into a better future (that I might add is quite large already) so players wont always be tasked with the chores of DND Accounting Version 3.5 but they will still have to provide somewhat to the city itself just not as much. I have 3/4ths the story planned out with contingency plans already ahead of time. The long term goal is also been set that will be able to assure players the incentive they need to push forward. In fact I might even have multiple long term goals for this campaign. But of course if some of those don;t work I will have plenty of ideas to influence some sort of incentive. I do have a bit of an economy set out but some will not be like the others. Some small established cities will take gold, others will take animal hides, etc. Prices will suck at first because they will be forced to stick to necessities instead of shiny new armor (which barely exists). And players will sometimes have to act as diplomats, scouts, etc. So that their established city can expand and gain alliances and try to reform the world. There will be multiple opportunities for players to build alliances and targets and even establish bases for their city to expand. But of course there will be plenty of people wanting their heads ranging from bandits to raiders, and of course they will have to keep food and water on their minds as they travel. But of course players will have the hard choice of making enemies and getting more resources for survival or making friends them and have benefits of trade and allies. I'm not only challenging them to survival but I will also challenge their trust in others for various evil DM reasons. As for playable classes that will be able to start farms and spawn water and such items that can cause some survival such as the endless flasks I already like your idea. The spells require a bit more effort and will be nerfed a bit to make sure players wont abuse the hell out of it. Magical items are extremely rare and yes owning one will be a floating target sign. And if they give it to someone else? Whose to say a village or two wont burn down and they wont lose allies?

If you nerf the spells, you need to lower the level they are, or else just remove them completely. They are balanced where they are for a reason. No one takes a "trap" spell, that is clearly underpowered or near useless. Why the hell would I take create water if it only makes a single cup? Easiest way to keep blatant abuse, just put a CL cap on them, say level 5. SO a 0th level create water cannot make more than 10 gallon per casting, and Create Food and Water makes no more than enough food/water for 15 humans OR 5 horses. Goodberry now lasts for no more than 5 days, which while still potentially troublesome if you spend 3 days casting nothing but goodberry, that gives you 4 days worth of food from the last casting and rest, as long as you eat them in the order you made them.

This puts it into JUST ENOUGH resources for the party, without becoming a walking food pantry and drinking fountains for everyone.

If the major plot points at low levels are the party getting enough to survive, I would cut the effectiveness of these spells to reflect the condition of the campaign world. Magic items that produce high volume are easier for the DM to control and use as plot points. How much would a staff that created 20 gal of water once a day be worth? The spells according to RAW would not be balanced in a setting where resource gathering is a major part of the action. A level 1 cleric can create enough water for 4 men each day with a 0 level spell. At level 10 that's 40 men. I think these spells unbalance a campaign world like this.

a level 1 cleric only makes 2 gallons of water with a lvl 0 spell. Thats BARELY enough to survive on, though dehydration will only be staved off, not completely offset. Thus why I said to cap them at level 5. They eventually make enough for the party to subsist on, but not enough to become a drinking fountain or food pantry for everyone else. To create enough water for the party eats all his 0th level spells, meaning no guidance, no detect magic, no purify food and drink, no resistance... all very useful Orisons.

If I can chime in, even capping them would cause problems. Sure You can only make 10 gal water, but so can all these other 50 clerics. what you should more worry about is not the handful of spells that could overbalance, but figure out a viable way of limiting casters to a meager handful of the population. I number I have used in the past 1/200 arcane and 1/100 divine, but you could even up that to scarcer levels. what this does is it means that like others have said the spells are rare. if suddenly dustville has a cleric who is feeding the population with spells, well maybe barrenstowne will decide that it is worth the risk to kidnap him.

but the problem with just limiting the number of casters is hard to do with a party, what I used to do is have every member of the group roll and die (I used percentile) to see if there character could be and arcane or divine caster. it meant that I usually had only one or the other in the group. While I am on the subject of classes there is another good point to make. In a world based on eking out the barest survival there is going to be a severe shortage of class types. most of you prepared spell casters (wizards and clerics for instance) and most of your heavy training classes (monks and the like) are going to be rare as many don't have the time to study or train when they are surviving. Barbarians and Rangers on the the other hand are going to be ridiculously common because they can survive and practice there craft. Anyway my first couple of copper

Alright some valuable points people, I can get the jist of whats going on here and I can actually produce something from this. Obviously the main problem is the spell itself that could cause either overabundance or shortage and still have this sort of survival feel to it. While I do agree debuffing might be a bit of a bad idea, I might go with the plan of just having it cap off so players still gain the ability to have the resources but can only do so much so it wont disturb the world around them. I have decided to put a CL Cap on these possible world breaking spells so that they can still act effectively but still keep on the verge of survival. But I would like to point out that Dustin has a point and I am working around to that now that I have figured out a way to stop the whole "Food/Water Factory Issue" with the clerics and such. And while I understand the classes issue I have that sorted out in the NPC stance already. From now on guys if you want to keep me posted on ideas PM me so I can still pick out who will be interested in this campaign. This campaign won't start for a while so any ideas are considered

What days and times are you available?

Everyday mostly, times vary a lot for me currently

I am interested, I can do any day of the week after 6pm Central American time.(Texas)

I would like to play. 5pm Central Time Mondays or Thursday

Well since people are interested then I will begin officially doing quite a bit more work on it. PRedictions are it will be held on Mondays

look like fun if u got room ill join