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Selection Tool: What are your thoughts?

Hey everyone, I'm working on a few new features right now, and one of the ones we introduced a while ago that seems to have caused more problems than it solved was splitting the selection tool into two parts: one tool for selecting tokens, and one tool for selecting drawings. Further adding to the confusion is the fact that now tokens can be turned into drawings. Anyway, I'm looking at re-doing that again to try and make it easier to use, and I thought I would start by soliciting the community to see what you thought. Does having the tools split up prove helpful, or do you just find yourself annoyed? The original problem that was intended to solve was to keep you from selecting a bunch of drawings on the same layer (e.g. player drawings of battle plans on the tokens layer) when you're trying to move tokens around. But really, I'm starting to realize the only place it comes into play is when using the select tool to draw a selection box to select several things at once. It seems unlikely that you'll be accidentally clicking directly on something you want to select. So maybe a better solution would be to join the tools back together, and instead offer two different ways of selecting multiple items (e.g. you have to hold down Alt to draw a selection box that captures drawings), but you can still directly click to select on either tokens or drawings? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks, RD
It is mildly annoying to have to go to the menu to switch back and forth as I'm working with drawings and tokens. I like the idea of there just being 1 tool that has two modes and that selecting tokens is the default mode. Could you also have it so that when the CTRL key is held down that the select/move tool can act as the 'Pan View' tool? This way we can move tokens, graphics, or the screen position with the same tool and not have to keep going back to the menu and switching back and forth all the time between the tools.
Elfy: That's sort of what I'm thinking (one tool with an alternate key to activate the other mode). Currently, you can use the right-click-button on your mouse (just right-click and drag) when you have the Select tool active to pan around.
I find it awkward to have two separate tools, and my players complain bitterly about it.
Agemegos -- Dud you have issues previously when it was just one tool with selecting things? E.g. selecting drawings when you meant to select tokens?
I would prefer to have one selection tool that selects all things, and then have all things be switchable between token and drawing. I never used the drawing tools before, but in a recent campaign I was fumbling with the drawing-or-token? problem, and switching back and forth. I wanted to explain it to a player, and it was...awkward. I would have the layers structured in such a fashion that an object that is on the Token layer is always a token, and something on, say, a Drawing layer is always a drawing, and moving an object between layers automatically changes them. Implementation-wise, I'd separate the "Object and Token" layer into two layers - Objects, and Tokens. On the object layer, any thing that exists can be selected, it has no radial menu, etc. On the Token layer, everything is a token. In the end you have 4 layers: Background, GM, Objects, Token (in order from bottom to top). The variation in how things are treated is determined by where you place the item. Now, I confess this is my preference because it is how I am used to working with a VTT (namely MapTool), but I think it is an effective model (edited to add: of course, the GM layer could be on top, too, as an overlay to match the naming convention you've established).
Agemegos -- Dud you have issues previously when it was just one tool with selecting things? E.g. selecting drawings when you meant to select tokens? No, I didn't. Selecting what I clicked on was expected behaviour.
1339996115
Troy
KS Backer
I'm not sure if this is intentional or a known issue, but it confused me: If you have the Select Text/Drawing tool active and you drag a new token from the repository, it treats that item as a drawing. I was dragging tokens in and expecting to be able to select them to get to the radial menus etc and it was quite jarring not being able to access the token properties as I didn't realize at first that I had added the token as an Image.
Troy: That was intentional, but that is definitely being taken out in the next update, as it was too confusing. Sorry about that!
I've been bitten by accidentally selecting tokens when trying to select drawings in the past (I don't know how many token's I've had to replace on the map after they got accidentally deleted when we were cleaning up some strategy drawing (or angry eyebrow graffiti) ;) I also find having to switch between the two a little frustrating, but it's more along the lines of "I'm clicking you, why isn't anything happening!!! -- oh. *switches tool while whistling innocently*" I like the combined tool idea, and would even take it a step further: Regular tool: Select tokens only Hold Alt: Select tokens AND drawings Hold Ctrl: Select drawings only Or something like that.
I think what we're actually going with is Regular tool: Select both (less confusing for people who don't know what's going on, players, etc.) Hold Alt: Select Drawings Only Hold Ctrl: Select Tokens Only There will still also be a "Clear" button that will delete only the drawings on the current layer, so if you're doing the common-use-case of clearing up all the battle planning and drawings then it should go quickly.
One observation is that Roll20 is getting a lot of very context-specific uses for Alt, Ctrl while doing stuff. I don't actually mind this, but it does increase the learning curve. My suggestion would be to have a little bit of text somewhere on screen when a given tool is selected that explicitly tells the user what the Ctrl- and Alt- and Shift- and so on uses of the tool are. Inkscape does this, and its pretty useful.
1340120293
Gid
Roll20 Team
I like the game plan of incorporating the selection tools back together. I use text overlays with imported graphics. Right now, if I have to move my elements, I have to move the graphics and then move the text over separately. It's a bit cumbersome presently.
This system is getting increasingly newbie unfriendly. A lot of the uses of CTRL and ALT don't seem to be in the documentation or are hidden in the wording. Roll20 is getting badly in need of a keyboard shortcuts list and a pop-up tooltips system.
If you mouse-over the Help icon on the toolbar, there is a Keyboards Shortcut that pops up. But I agree that our documentation is falling behind where we want it. Our plan right now is to spend a good chunk of July just polishing features, fixing bugs, and getting the docs updated in preparation for our "launch" in August.
Yes, merging the tools back together is the way to go. It's very confusing currently. One thing I do know is that a player I have given control of a token to cannot copy/paste it, but they can copy/paste a drawing I've given them control of. I would like for them to be able to copy/paste both. In the interests of avoiding CTRL, ALT, SHFT, CTRL+ALT overload, I'd recommend demerging the drawing tools, so you have one icon for freehand, one for straight lines, one for squares/rectangles, and one for circles/ellipses.
I'm using tree clusters from the library. It puts 3 or 4 trees on my map that are spread out, but if I click anywhere within the bounding box, the tree group is selected. This is ok, but if I have moved a token in between these trees, or a drawing, it is extremely difficult to select the token instead of the trees. I am also used to this happening in other programs, and a common way to fix it is to select both things and then shift+select (or sometimes ctrl+select) the object you didn't want. This function doesn't seem to be in Roll20. Also, if this option was in Roll20, doing an initial selection is difficult because the select tool assumes I want to move an object when I click and drag. This really is on a problem when I use big open images like the trees, but I use those quite often. Is there any chance of getting the shift+select to take away a selection from a selected group?