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Response etiquette (from GM to applicants).

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Hi, I'd like to raise a concern that is more about good manners and consideration for other site users rather than actual technical tweaks to gameplay. I am surprised to see that GMs can put up their game proposals, an application thread, a commencing date and then, just log off until that date arrives to make their selection moments before the game is due to kick off. To me, this seems quite ridiculous and inconsiderate to applicants.  Imagine a game proposal is written up, really brief, and posted (perhaps with an "extra" question like "what's your favourite animal and why?" numerous applicants respond, looks like its not uncommon for 20-30 to do so... each player puts a varied amount of thought and effort into their response, from the scant "I'm in, hit me up" to the in depth and creative role creation with background etc, lots of care to fit into to the sometimes very brief line of world description and opening scenario... then silence. No response. No further questions. No polite message (or automated/copy-pasted one) apologising but saying that the slots have been filled and they didn't get accepted at this time, no need to sit by the computer at proposed game commencement. I must admit I've not been here long enough to have experienced this yet, but it appears to be a looming likelihood... I have made two applications well in advance for games happening on Monday evening... I put care and consideration into my application and have hoped to be selected (my applications went in 3 days ago and tonight is the Saturday evening, 2 days before game commencement.)  As the date drew near I wrote to each GM and posted a thread on each game saying I would like advance notice whether I had made the grade or not. There has been no response from either.  What I am led to conclude, is that these GMs are going to make their selections moments before game commencement, presumably expecting those 20-30 individuals to all be sat by waiting to play that evening. This is a joke. This is inconsiderate, this seems ill planned, and perhaps incorrectly I am assuming this is the norm here (?). My suggestion would be that the Roll20 site puts in a simple measure to not let this scenario occur, quite simply an application deadline (a week or just under, before the proposed game launch) - applications close / the thread locks and a GM selection deadline which starts from the application deadline, and ends maybe 3 days before game commencement. The GM must fill their game by that date and notify their selected players (perhaps the site provides a list of the users who applied and asks for the successful names to be ticked, a maximum number in accordance to the original proposal) - I guess other players may sign up from discord or elsewhere - or perhaps not, perhaps Roll20 will demand Roll20 applicant profiles - there's definitely grey areas and discussion to be had. But I really think the "30 hopefuls sat by their computer" scenario needs to be addressed... As it goes I have too much self respect for this to happen to me - the GMs whose games launch this Monday have passed the deadline I have set, I will be going out for a quiet pint with friends... but I think it is really bad that this dreadful lapse in manners needs to be addressed. If you guys were uninclined to make actual technical adjustments to accommodate the suggestion I've made above - perhaps you could include a highlighted tip for handling applications in advance of game commencement as a tip for GMs - prompting folk to be considerate - an addition to your community guidelines. That's got to be an easy fix. Thanks for reading everyone's thoughts are welcome, I look forward to reading them.
Unfortunately, this is not a Roll20 thing. It's a people thing. The majority of the people that you'll meet online are inconsiderate of others. My most recent experience with LFG on Roll20 had me find an apparent 'teacher' that teaches children for a living. We both work in the development industry, educated, things kick off and then abruptly and out of the blue after spending an hour talking to them, another hour building my character, then another hour making the lore. I'm met with ー"Sorry, your character is too OP. I wished that you would've told me what you were doing (I did, and got approval from them to play a long death monk)." ーKicked from server, blocked, unfriended, can't retrieve any effort made for the DM because it was so fast how quickly things were cut It doesn't help that I was the only half caster on the team. As I had 4 levels in Warlock. The roster included Wizards and Clerics, and the DM explicitly told me: "Your character might die if you play. It's going to be so hard. This one off is meant to kill even lvl 15 characters like yours." The thing is that the DM didn't think my Monk having access to magic was OP. Or any of the monk features. They were deemed OP because 30 + 10 + 10 + 20 = 70 movement speed, and the DM didn't know how to handle that. In an instance like that, it was easier to completely inconvenience a complete stranger that wasn't yet invested (on the DM's side, as I invested 3 hours of effort to play) by nuking them and pretending as if nothing had ever happened. And this is something that you will find very frequently on many forums. System based RP. Text based RP. Clan RP. PVPRP. PVERP. PVEVP RP. ERP. Regardless of the brand of RP that you're doing, including TTRPG's, people will do whatever serves them best. And it's your job to figure out whether or not the person you're contacting is a massive POS or a friendly face who is honestly looking for what you're looking for. Companionship.
Yeah it's been one of the worst aspects of the Internet being behind the monitor and not face to face allows people to act with impunity and just avoid all confrontation entirely.  Accountability for actions on the Internet is zilch and so people become more and more comfortable treating people online like garbage when it no longer suits their purposes. It sucks but 99 times out of 100 if you're not picked you'll never be informed. When I ran I made sure to let folks know that I'd made my choice and have a couple back ups if there was enough interest to do so but I believe I was the exception not the rule.
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Shotai said: Unfortunately, this is not a Roll20 thing. It's a people thing. The majority of the people that you'll meet online are inconsiderate of others. My most recent experience with LFG on Roll20 had me find an apparent 'teacher' that teaches children for a living. We both work in the development industry, educated, things kick off and then abruptly and out of the blue after spending an hour talking to them, another hour building my character, then another hour making the lore. I'm met with ー"Sorry, your character is too OP. I wished that you would've told me what you were doing (I did, and got approval from them to play a long death monk)." ーKicked from server, blocked, unfriended, can't retrieve any effort made for the DM because it was so fast how quickly things were cut It doesn't help that I was the only half caster on the team. As I had 4 levels in Warlock. The roster included Wizards and Clerics, and the DM explicitly told me: "Your character might die if you play. It's going to be so hard. This one off is meant to kill even lvl 15 characters like yours." The thing is that the DM didn't think my Monk having access to magic was OP. Or any of the monk features. They were deemed OP because 30 + 10 + 10 + 20 = 70 movement speed, and the DM didn't know how to handle that. In an instance like that, it was easier to completely inconvenience a complete stranger that wasn't yet invested (on the DM's side, as I invested 3 hours of effort to play) by nuking them and pretending as if nothing had ever happened. And this is something that you will find very frequently on many forums. System based RP. Text based RP. Clan RP. PVPRP. PVERP. PVEVP RP. ERP. Regardless of the brand of RP that you're doing, including TTRPG's, people will do whatever serves them best. And it's your job to figure out whether or not the person you're contacting is a massive POS or a friendly face who is honestly looking for what you're looking for. Companionship. What the GM did was wrong. No debate. However, this is pretty much a D&D 5e 'thing.' In 5e, players are essentially demigods, and ways to use the rules to dramatically draft an even more OP characters abound, especially looking up how-to videos. This is not enjoyable for most DMs. In addition, players that do this are into min-maxing/ power grabs and so not the most fun players to DM when you wish to jointly build a story together. I occasionally DM D&D 5e when I am in the mood for a silly, over-the-top campaign, but usually, I want a real  normal campaign so I usually DM systems that are not D&D 5e. That is my suggestion to you. There are TONS of systems out there. Get out of the kindergarten sandbox and try them. It doesn't have to be D&D5e all the time.
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Nick the Gamer said: Yeah it's been one of the worst aspects of the Internet being behind the monitor and not face to face allows people to act with impunity and just avoid all confrontation entirely.  Accountability for actions on the Internet is zilch and so people become more and more comfortable treating people online like garbage when it no longer suits their purposes. It sucks but 99 times out of 100 if you're not picked you'll never be informed. When I ran I made sure to let folks know that I'd made my choice and have a couple back ups if there was enough interest to do so but I believe I was the exception not the rule. I commend you on your manners... this is how I shall do it when I am making selections for any games I run here.
Okay - Let's not make this a GM only problem, before we take off into the sunset, there are genuinely issues that can be addressed on poor communication skills on both sides of the table. Nick the Gamer said: Yeah it's been one of the worst aspects of the Internet being behind the monitor and not face to face allows people to act with impunity and just avoid all confrontation entirely.  Accountability for actions on the Internet is zilch and so people become more and more comfortable treating people online like garbage when it no longer suits their purposes. It sucks but 99 times out of 100 if you're not picked you'll never be informed. When I ran I made sure to let folks know that I'd made my choice and have a couple back ups if there was enough interest to do so but I believe I was the exception not the rule. I would argue that goes both ways, when players start ghosting GMs who sends them messages about the game. Or if a player just ups and leaves a game without a word, without a care. It is a two-way street. And we are only making it worse by pretending it is only a GM problem. I would argue that communication, in all aspects are better. But that also means that if a player gets a 'no' that they keep acting respectful, and not throws a hissy-fit because now all bets are off and they don't have to be nice to the GM. As for the OP, I would argue that it is good to put down a date personally when I GM, on when I will reach out to players, rather than make it a mechanical thing, so one week before, you will know if you are in the game, and then if players haven't responded to the invites, you can go for waiting list rounds after a set date if the remaining applicants are still interested.  It also helps to send out messages, who has made it through and who hasn't made it. Though I refer to my earlier comments about players not being that considerate and treating GMs like a Karen treats a clerk in a supermarket. When facing rejection, even players should be respectful. Which leads back to this quote: Nick the Gamer said: Yeah it's been one of the worst aspects of the Internet being behind the monitor and not face to face allows people to act with impunity and just avoid all confrontation entirely.  Accountability for actions on the Internet is zilch and so people become more and more comfortable treating people online like garbage when it no longer suits their purposes. It goes both ways. I do hope though - that you get into a good group and do not lose hope too soon in regards to your D&D adventure. Getting into my first game easily took 6-10 applications.
I never ghost anybody on game night. Though I vet potential players pretty well. if somebody contacts me about wanting to be in a game I posted about there are only two cases where I tend to not even reply to them. One is if they have some weird username like poopy pants or goatsucker or something like that. Bright red flags. also, I often don’t reply if they message something bare bones like “hey I’m interested in your game.” so I’m like what I have to now play 20 questions with this person to find out a single bit of information about them? I put fairly extensive info on my profile about me and my style so at least somebody could do is give two or three sentences about what they like a game and past experience and all that. I don’t need to know their Social Security or where the kids go to school, but come on. I also think people have particular expectations turning roll 20 into a wasteland. They want a game to be like critical role or to be especially in a medieval time. Or they want or to not be Tolkien orcs but Warcraft orcs (barbarians with tusks, yawn). i’ve gotten some good people together for campaigns here, but I’m finding I’m having to go reach out to other places to get a bigger player pool. On the roll20 forums you’ll see the same person every month or two looking for a game. How many campaigns do they attend for a session or two in a year before they decided its not for them? Or got kicked out. but flaky D&D players isn’t exclusive to online. Years ago when I stopped playing with only friends so much and started playing with strangers people would come for a game then never come back on the next game or not even show up for the first one. it’s just one of the downsides of trying to organize things. People doing a lot of window shopping.
T S. said: Shotai said: Unfortunately, this is not a Roll20 thing. It's a people thing. The majority of the people that you'll meet online are inconsiderate of others. My most recent experience with LFG on Roll20 had me find an apparent 'teacher' that teaches children for a living. We both work in the development industry, educated, things kick off and then abruptly and out of the blue after spending an hour talking to them, another hour building my character, then another hour making the lore. I'm met with ー"Sorry, your character is too OP. I wished that you would've told me what you were doing (I did, and got approval from them to play a long death monk)." ーKicked from server, blocked, unfriended, can't retrieve any effort made for the DM because it was so fast how quickly things were cut It doesn't help that I was the only half caster on the team. As I had 4 levels in Warlock. The roster included Wizards and Clerics, and the DM explicitly told me: "Your character might die if you play. It's going to be so hard. This one off is meant to kill even lvl 15 characters like yours." The thing is that the DM didn't think my Monk having access to magic was OP. Or any of the monk features. They were deemed OP because 30 + 10 + 10 + 20 = 70 movement speed, and the DM didn't know how to handle that. In an instance like that, it was easier to completely inconvenience a complete stranger that wasn't yet invested (on the DM's side, as I invested 3 hours of effort to play) by nuking them and pretending as if nothing had ever happened. And this is something that you will find very frequently on many forums. System based RP. Text based RP. Clan RP. PVPRP. PVERP. PVEVP RP. ERP. Regardless of the brand of RP that you're doing, including TTRPG's, people will do whatever serves them best. And it's your job to figure out whether or not the person you're contacting is a massive POS or a friendly face who is honestly looking for what you're looking for. Companionship. What the GM did was wrong. No debate. However, this is pretty much a D&D 5e 'thing.' In 5e, players are essentially demigods, and ways to use the rules to dramatically draft an even more OP characters abound, especially looking up how-to videos. This is not enjoyable for most DMs. In addition, players that do this are into min-maxing/ power grabs and so not the most fun players to DM when you wish to jointly build a story together. I occasionally DM D&D 5e when I am in the mood for a silly, over-the-top campaign, but usually, I want a real  normal campaign so I usually DM systems that are not D&D 5e. That is my suggestion to you. There are TONS of systems out there. Get out of the kindergarten sandbox and try them. It doesn't have to be D&D5e all the time. The word "OP" and a 2014 Monk half caster shouldn't be in the same sentence. Especially when my character was the only one not playing a hardcore "fuck your entire day" class like the Wizard and Cleric at level 15 . Let alone comparing the 2014 Monk to 2014 Twilight Cleric or any wizard subclass for that matter. Furthermore, you're overgeneralizing things to an extreme and then making accusations that are baseless; as I play more than 5E. Fate is my favorite system. To say that all DnD games are heroes with impossible feats is an extreme statement that has me wondering if you're either lying or don't comprehend basic DM principles. Players start out as commoners at lvl 1, then become heroes, then heroes of the realm, then masters of the realm and finally achieving demigod status. This is DMing 101 stuff, like, you google 'how do I DM for DND5E?' and the first 3 videos are right there to explain the different tiers. Most Players Will Never Experience Playing Demigod Status. I Repeat, Most Players Will Never Experience Playing Demigod Status. Look, I get it. DnD isn't a real TTRPG to you. In-fact only kindergarteners that sniff glue apparently play the game. One day, I walked by this club while at Uni' and they were playing the game in their twenties, I nearly had a stroke. I ran into the room by bashing the door down with my musket for home defence and started shouting bogus things because I didn't really understand the game enough to give credit where it's due: that people might like something I don't. Sometimes, I lay awake at night. Staring at the ceiling. Thinking. Panicking. My heart is racing. My palms are sweating, I'm thinking about my Mom's spaghetti; maybe I shouldn't have sniffed all that glue already. My supply is long gone, how am I gonna make it through the long dawn without a lung drawn.
I feel completely demoralized both as a True Professional DM and as a player... I have spent the last 2.5 months trying to play a game, answering these stupid copy and paste application questionnaires, making fully flushed out canonical characters that tie into the world, setting and story. only for some entitled dm to ghost a bunch of people they just scammed into prepaying and offering a credit just because 7 people didn't show up to pay them their $15 each premium and pay a total $100+ for that session.  they make excuses of saying that there's not enough players or they'll credit someone who just bought a months worth of game sessions, then act out because they didn't get enough people to fill their youtube live stream. this fantasy of being another internet celebratory by DMing has ruined D&D. I remember roll20 having dozens of games every hour.. now its impossible to find one thats not actually and advertisement! there needs to be better search and category options for us, to search for the system here is way too broken.
Dalladon, Mostly & DnDM thank you for your comments, I'm pleased to learn that there is a number of people who feel the same at least  If there were mutually convenient timezones for play, I think I'd be happy to play in games run by each of you grateful for your contributing points, though I'm saddened a little to hear that I've arrived late and that the site isn't quite what it was. Peace.
DnDM said: I remember roll20 having dozens of games every hour.. now its impossible to find one thats not actually and advertisement! The Pick-Up game spot would be much better if Pay To Play or Westmarches servers had some other place to use for advertising
That's 5e gamers and their GMs for you. If you play a game with a more adult audience, you won't see that kind of response.
not trying to justify anyone's behavior or on the other hand trash anyone, but there are some things to consider: first, the dms on here are mostly doing all the work to set up and run games for FREE.  if you do not like the work they are doing for you for FREE, please, do the work yourself.  don't make a bunch of pathetic excuses, do the work yourself.  set up and run a game and show everyone how it is done. second, a lot of gamers are not what you would call social elites.  i have often seen young dms set up games with the idea they will meet someone they want to (whatever the hell young people call it these days) since they have difficulty meeting people IRL.  their purpose is not to run an awesome game, it is to meet an awesome person that likes them back. and finally, like with any relationship, be it friends, business, romantic or whatever, two people can both be great, and yet not in any way be compatible.  just find someone else who you mesh well with.  try not to take it personal.  it probably is not personal.  just find a group or dm you work well with and then try to make that game better by you being in it. gaming is supposed to be fun.  isn't that why we game?  no one has, to my knowledge at least, ever made a billion gaming...  it is not your career.  it is your hobby.  relax and have fun and try to make it fun for others as well.  when a game is good, it is awesome to be a part of,  looking at you Dave C. with your evil drow, and we need to be grateful we get to be a part of that. best luck out there finding your dream game, hang in there and have fun,
Ghosting in anyway is never fun, it always sucks but if you don't know what is going on overthinking it and making a bigger problem out of it than it is, is never a good idea.  It might have been an extremely depressed person, trying to reconnect to the outside world by DMing again just to find themselves extremely overwhelmed and shutting off. (This may or may not have happened to me once, sorry to everyone I ghosted.) You are not entitled to an answer. It sucks but no one owns you one, is it polite and proper to let people know if they are accepted or not? Yes. I do so whenever I can but there have been times were I could not.  The only thing you can realistically do to have that problem less often is joining games in person.  Of course you can set your own boundaries and set those deadlines, but I have never heard of any DM accepting people last minute. Would be a nightmare for me. Also are you sure the "day" was not just a placeholder? Was it a hard set date? Because some people have the actual date 2-3 weeks later but to be more visible set the day sooner.  Try to spread kindness and understanding ya'll. World can already be hard enough. 
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For me it's a great indicator of the prep work the GM does, so I honestly appreciate it.  If I put in the app 2 weeks in advance and the GM replies the day before or of the game, I simply ignore them as that's CLEARLY not a game I'm going to enjoy.  Scheduling is hard enough, but if the GM waits until the moment the game starts to actually start prepping, that's a waste of everyone's time. Much like a dating profile, I really appreciate when the GM puts red flags into their posts.  Like "make sure you read the entire thing" and then putting some douchebag "trick" tells me very clearly this is a "gotcha" GM who is more interested in humiliating players than actually running a fun game, pass thanks.  Makes life so much easier when their toxicity is on full display, so I truly appreciate it.
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I 'm not entirely sure if I follow you Daniel B regarding pathetic excuses and I will be running a game here in time, I'm settling into a new work routine right now and so thought I'd try this site for getting a spot in someone's game - I mean that's what this site is designed for is it not? You've received my kneejerk reaction to my first attempts at enrolling, with DMs just bailing /ghosting (despite each of them around 25-30 applications of various effort / style / imagination / degrees of min-maxing)  anyhow - I'm not keen on your tone, so chill if your want your points met in a reasonable and friendly manner. Cuddles, you are quite right - life is hard, people are of varying social resilience, sh*t happens... in honesty (let me repeat that I'm new here) I was trying to post my original post in the suggestions thread/forumcategory ...I realised that I needed to be a site donor to do that and so instead threw the post it in here, kinda mis-filed but receiving attention and commentary anyway. I think my suggestion of the time structure when a DM goes to post their game proposal is pretty straightforward and might possibly go some way toward improving the current situation - certainly it'll let players not to waste any longer if the deadline passes. I've not really taken my inability to find a game personally, I just saw a flaw in the proceedings and offered some proposal of schedule structure - which would go a long way to substituting etiquette with enforced protocol. That's all. Otherwise be aware that players like MacAllen and myself will think the game is likely to be ill prepared and not worth investing time or creativity into. Again - it's interesting to read the appending thoughts  thanks for joining the discussion. I might have a second try at applying for some games - I had stopped at the point of kicking this discussion off.
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? LET'S PLAY DND, I'LL RUN A GAME FOR ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS CHAT ;)
But I really think the "30 hopefuls sat by their computer" scenario needs to be addressed... As much as I agree? I think it's easier to address in your own garden, weeding your own expectations when a prospective GM doesn't communicate in an appropriately timely manner to make participating on your part thoughtful, collaborative, and unhurried. But I haven't tried playing D&D in a long time to see how people are treating it - only thought about it while playing in unrelated systems and settings. Maybe I should change that before another year rolls around.