(Rant) Why do Pathfinder/D&D 3.5 GMs insist on playing Core-only?

@Dred: Do you ban sources to maintain the theme of your game or to curb what you perceive as "min/maxing?" You seem to infer that a non-authoritarian DM's game is more chaotic or that such a game is not focused on the characters. Do you think that is true? Because in our games, you can be as optimized as you like and I don't think any honest observer would say the roleplaying is lacking. That's Stormwind Fallacy.

Okay so I've read a fair number of arguments, [about half the page] and one subject i haven't seen pointed out is the true origin of role playing and what i mean by this is the actual "ROLE PLAYING" All i've seen are arguments that are mostly limited to gm/player rule interest for that current game or min/maxing or making op characters and truly I've seen in games that's all its turning into how do i maximize my character. Honestly I'm a bit of an idiot or well I could probably use a better description but an issue I've always had is just that, "optimization" which has time and time again put me behind the group which is rough to one, me because at that point I'm just feeling like a useless limb i don't actually have any impact in fights and since actually story type role playing is dieing out i am basically forced to sit in the corner and just roll when I'm told to and two it becomes difficult for a gm at that point because just as everyone says you need to scale the battles but at that point how do you scale a fight so its a decent and fun fight for these overly powerful players but not going to ruin this one that is having issues. I for one am Pro towards just using core rules and the such because sure some characters are super powerful but that is just the characters of course Mages are going to be powerful and so on but that was worked out by limiting there spells with per day restrictions and I think in the end keeping it restricted like this encourages more even playing and actually Role Play with real storytelling and intrigue, suspense, action adventure its not all about rolling dice its about actually putting yourself in a completely different position How would you act if you were a high born Mage, or a street thug of a Thief, maybe you were a farmer that worked and trained to become a knight, Or heck one idea I recently wanted to try was a Halfling Monk and right there I'm already pushing away from min/maxing why because Halflings racial stats in pathfinder work against a monk but i thought of a good back story and such so i would like to play the game for what i think it should be, a fantasy story something you could never do in real life and need a strong imagination to visualize the world your in that I would hope a gm has put a lot of thought into creating. Well that's my word I hope you all don't shoot it down cause its sad how many rp's now a days have less and less focus on story and focus more on character optimization which also seems to be a video gamers mentality as well. p.s. Sorry if I'm just repeating posts i have missed i only got about half way through so far cause you all have some extensive rants. ^-^

Optimization is not the opposite of roleplaying. In fact, that makes absolutely zero sense at all. It's also insulting. You're telling a whole group of people who are good at math and mechanics that they can't also roleplay. This is the Stormwind Fallacy. I put a link to what that is above. Your issue of not being effective in an optimized group is a largely a DM FAIL (and also a system fail), not a failure on your part or on the players who choose to optimize which the game incentivizes. The DM is creating a game that is affected greatly by optimization. The DM could choose not to do this at any time. As well, your experience is not indicative of the hobby moving away from roleplaying. That's a baseless and anecdotal assertion. As well, ALL RPG'S have a focus on story because story is an artifact of play. You create stories simply by playing an RPG, whether that means you talk to whole time or just kill orcs. That it was not up to your standards of prose and flourish does not mean it is any less roleplaying.

Optimizers can go jump off a cliff. They ruin more campaigns than they're worth putting up with.

Dred said: I don't know you Metroknight, but I support your views on this subject.   There are many ways to play and everyone should be able to find a group that works for them.  But in mine, when it comes to what is available to play, it's my way or the highway.  :) Thank you. rory n.  said: Honestly I'm a bit of an idiot or well I could probably use a better description but an issue I've always had is just that, "optimization" which has time and time again put me behind the group which is rough to one, me because at that point I'm just feeling like a useless limb i don't actually have any impact in fights and since actually story type role playing is dieing out i am basically forced to sit in the corner and just roll when I'm told to and two it becomes difficult for a gm at that point because just as everyone says you need to scale the battles but at that point how do you scale a fight so its a decent and fun fight for these overly powerful players but not going to ruin this one that is having issues. @ Rory : You are not an idiot because you prefer what is called "old school" instead of "optimization". It is just two sides to this and each side is vocal.  All it boils down to is one side believes in total freedom, no matter if the GM can handle it. That should be the players call about what is allowed to exist in the game. That side claims this will force the GM to learn, grow, and mature in his skills.  The other side claims that the game should be as restrictive as the GM feels as he/she is the one that created the world, knows what exists in the world, who puts all the extra work into creating the adventure. That is what it all boils down to. Players have control of what they think should be in the world or  The GM have control of what they envision the world to be and what they feel should or should not exist in the world. I side with the GM having control. That is one of the reasons for me running old school systems. 3.x and 4E has so many options and supplements that unless you know all the books (I don't have money for that), it is very hard to keep all encounters properly balanced and when you add a story based character into a party of optimized characters, it really grows hard if not impossible to allow the story based character to do anything that the optimized characters couldn't do better. This leads that one player to grow disillusion with the group / game / hobby in general and more than likely to quit the hobby. As a GM I always make sure my players know what is allowed and not allowed and my players know that they can work within my restrictions however they want to. I tend to ignore whatever label they slaps on me and continue to run my games my way. My viewpoint is "to each their own."

Wow don't sugar coat your word Iserith I was just saying my opinion and how i felt and i never once said that people good at math and mechanics cant role play I'm saying that people focus to much on optimization now a days and sure it might all be the dm's fault but that is how I've felt so far which i might explain is called an opinion that is all maybe I've just had many bad experiences I'm hoping that will change as i explore roll20 more but i don't appreciate what felt very much like an insulting stab at me for stating an opinion of how i had felt on the particular topic.

At the start I asked people to play nice. Since it has taken a turn into the personal I am closing the thread. - Gauss