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Lately it's been nearly impossible to find a game

This has to be said. There are too many players and not enough GMs. This is especially bad for D&D/Pathfinder but seems to be an issue for nearly everything. A GM posts a LFG and within an hour there's 20-30 people posting. Now most GMs are not taking first come first serve and then it becomes like a job interview trying to get a GM to accept you into the game with 50 other players trying to get in. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, other then more people stepping up to GM, but there needs to be an easier way to find a game.
That's pretty funny. Lately, i've been trying to find players and getting nothing at all. I wasn't about to make a post about it, but i was thinking almost the exact opposite.
The best my group has done is run two campaign alternating every week. It gives both GMs a chance to play too and lets the others explore new types of characters.
Billy Redd said: That's pretty funny. Lately, i've been trying to find players and getting nothing at all. I wasn't about to make a post about it, but i was thinking almost the exact opposite. Do you run a D&D/Pathfinder game? Especially bad for D&D 5e and Pathfinder...
First, yes, it is frustrating and I was there myself for a while. I've been on Roll20 for a long time and I almost always had two to three games I was playing in every week. Then I gave it a rest around October or so when the three games I was in all ended on pretty much the same week. I waited until the new year, knowing that with the holidays coming up that people would be even more flaky than usual. When I came back I was applying to games constantly and almost never getting so much as a response even if it was to say "Thanks but no thanks." I was finally able to get in a game and then I was invited to another, and then another. Next thing I know I'm back to being in three games. I can understand the frustration because I've been there, and I'm sure a lot of other people have. Honestly though, what purpose does a post like this really serve? You're acting like all the sudden you've now pulled back the curtain on some ugly truth and are trying to expose it to the light as if it will change anything. Pro-tip, it won't. So, with all that said, the moral of the story is to just keep on applying to games. Try to be as thorough with your application as possible and do your best to make the DM feel like you would be a fit for what he or she is looking for. It sucks and it's a real pain sometimes when all you want to do is play some tabletop games but you can't make people want to DM and you can't make them want to invite you. You can only keep on applying and if they invite you then they do and if they don't then just move on to the next one and don't let it bother you too much. Good luck with your search!
Galen said: I can understand the frustration because I've been there, and I'm sure a lot of other people have. Honestly though, what purpose does a post like this really serve? You're acting like all the sudden you've now pulled back the curtain on some ugly truth and are trying to expose it to the light as if it will change anything. Pro-tip, it won't. The solution is more GMs really... The thing I'm trying to really "expose" here is just the ratio of Players to GMs is way too high at this point...
If you've got any flexibility in your versions, i could give you more D&D than any sane person could possibly want.
Joseph Fernandez said: The solution is more GMs really... The thing I'm trying to really "expose" here is just the ratio of Players to GMs is way too high at this point... There are plenty of people in your shoes so I don't think it's something that people don't already know. I'm not saying you're not right, because you totally are, but making a post about it really isn't going to do much in the grand scheme of things. You're somewhat lucky though because it looks like Billy is willing to run some stuff with you. So I guess in the end you are better off than you were a couple hours ago.
Galen said: making a post about it really isn't going to do much in the grand scheme of things... I guess in the end you are better off than you were a couple hours ago. If i had to guess, that may have been the idea.
Billy Redd said: If i had to guess, that may have been the idea. Well yeah, I mean it worked, sure but only because he got lucky. DMs don't just come out of the walls when someone makes a post like this. It's not like his method is exactly fool-proof. So, while I intend no offense to you or him at all, I wouldn't go giving him too much credit. At any rate, good luck with your game.
Billy Redd said: ... could give you more D&D than any sane person could possibly want. Believe me, he speaks the truth! I've been there! -Phnord, who isn't actually sane, and would kinda like to play again!
To be fair, I've found the majority of roll20 players to be remarkably inconsistent. It could take 1 person to ruin the fun and waste the time of a group of others, whether its from their interactions or their absences, it being like a job interview to get into a game really isn't enough.
Kevin C. said: To be fair, I've found the majority of roll20 players to be remarkably inconsistent. It could take 1 person to ruin the fun and waste the time of a group of others, whether its from their interactions or their absences, it being like a job interview to get into a game really isn't enough. This is definitely the case. GMs are just as fickle too, sadly. As a GM myself, I got lucky with a decent group in the beginning that we built up with consistent players. Then whenever i branch out, I always ask them first if they want to join, if they can't I fill in the gaps with randos. Usually Reddit works better for recruitment, but it happens. I am going to try to join a Tuesday night game, so I will get back to you on how my search goes, i'd imagine it will take a couple weeks to find a group that works.
The solution to this is very simple. Every player out there is a future GM that just needs to step up. If you can't find a GM to run a game for you, run one yourself.
Yeah, bad-apple syndrome is especially lethal here on roll20. In fact it's even worse, because neither party has to really even be "bad" in any way. Mismatched expectations or styles are enough to tank a game filled with awesome people.
Ugh been having so much trouble finding GM's I even bought pathfinder modules just so I can provide something for them to run if they want to run a game but can't afford a module (BTW if you want a module I can provide you a download link to one I own) So yeah....very annoying
Just want to put it out there: Communicate. As a rule, I will not invite someone to my game who cannot accomplish basic communication here online. That means one-line messages or posts of just "I'm interested" or "invite me", misspelled paragraphs or incoherency, etc. Sure, maybe those people are actually great players in a game, but you're not doing the job of selling that, so don't expect to be picked up.
I mean, I'm running a B/X D&D style game using ACKS and I have 0 responses so far. Many if everyone wasn't obsessed with playing the same games then there'd be enough variety.
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Rex Invictus said: I mean, I'm running a B/X D&D style game using ACKS and I have 0 responses so far. Many if everyone wasn't obsessed with playing the same games then there'd be enough variety. Rex, there is 1 more "Playing" tag to add on your game: Old School Revival. It is one of the choices in the drop-down, and goes nicely along with Basic D&D and Other Games. Might bring some more eyes to your LFG.
Gold said: Rex Invictus said: I mean, I'm running a B/X D&D style game using ACKS and I have 0 responses so far. Many if everyone wasn't obsessed with playing the same games then there'd be enough variety. Rex, there is 1 more "Playing" tag to add on your game: Old School Revival. It is one of the choices in the drop-down, and goes nicely along with Basic D&D and Other Games. Might bring some more eyes to your LFG. Ah, thanks, I've added it.
If there isn't a game out there, make your own. Sometimes you can goad a player into being a GM. Nevertheless, I couldn't find GMs that where DMing in the time slot i wanted, so I made my own game. I agree that there's too many players, even the players in my own game had 2 or 3 other games going, which made it hard to reschedule games when life got in the way.
The problem lies most likely somewhere else. I'm searching for players and only got two real responses and one from another system I'm not interested in ( Link here ). Either the timezones or the systems simply don't match, but I always see players and DMs searching (and usually you can find something to play if you put more work into it than posting "I'm interested!").
I think there are a lot of people that wouldn't mind or would like to GM but are hesitant to do so due to lack of knowledge, time, or confidence... Many Players expect a certain level of expertise of their GM as well... For instance, take me... I'd love to try something sometimes, I got enough campaign possibilities in mind... But I don't do it due to the fear of not living up to the expectations of my Players or the game lacking tempo due to my abilities... Starting a game with experienced Players and a new GM is as terrible as starting a game with an experienced GM and a full group of new Players... And I believe (I may be wrong though) most Players on roll20 are experienced with the ruleset they're looking to play with...
Meh. If you run a game and let people know you're new, you'll find most people will cut you a lot of slack. So nut up and run some games!
There are far more people willing to GM than there is to play, you have to enjoy creating things, and seeing how players react to situations to be a GM. It takes far more work than most people are willing to put in to do it well. This is just a simple fact of this hobby, it's one of the most disproportionate demographics you'll find in any sort of hobby, its no joke to say for every 100 or so players there is maybe , one GM who truly loves the design portion rather than playing. You can't force people to GM, in my experience most players who are asked to give a try at the GM post just end up doing it reluctantly, and very lazily. I'm a mostly forever GM myself, I've been playing on roll20 for a little over a year now. At this stage I have a good core of players that I mostly stick to and ask if they want to play when creating a new campaign. I offer it to them because I consider them friends at this stage, I know they are fun to play with, I know they are competent and won't flake for nonsense reasons. And most importantly, I know they are reasonable. The biggest single reason finding a game on roll20 is often like going through a job interview is because most GMs don't want to put in the considerable effort it takes to create a game for people, only to have as others have mentioned, the expectations of either persons not been met. Leading to one or the other group simply thinking poorly of the GM or the player, because its just not the style of game they wanted or expected. Games are radically different, probably in ways you haven't even considered. I've joined games with rulesets I know well, to find the GM mostly ignores them completely and simply does all combat as a quick narrative only very loosely following the rules, if at all. I've joined games with simply no combat at all, where the entire thing is basically 5 people telling an interactive story to each other with maybe 1-2 rolls in 5 hours. Then I've played the complete opposite, where there is next to no narrative, no explanation as to why something is happening. You are simply "attacked" and dices are rolled. Combat ends, and a few seconds later a new enemy horde attacks you in your nondescript probably "white room" for "reasons". You just need to find one group of people you meld well with, and stick to them. I GM a... ridiculous volume of games now, and am also invited to a great deal more, to the point at this stage I have to decline a new one every week or two because I simply do not have the time or means to attend them all or participate in the real world. Continue the search is my advice to you, find the group, or more importantly the GM, that meets your expectations. Like making friends in life its much the same here, the rest will follow once you find that group, or build it yourself more or less as I did.
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From the perspective of a GM for non D&D/Pathfinder games, I would personally say that the lack of GMs mostly falls in the court of D&D/Pathfinder, with Other game systems having the issue of a lack of players. From personal experience and looking around the forums at people recruiting for the same sorts of games I run, it is plainly obvious that getting a number of players to meet the minimum required player count is rare, and getting enough players to weed out the obvious bad matches is unheard of. Due to that and my inexplicably pervasive reputation of being a GM of last resort, I just don't even bother trying anymore. It isn't worth my time to spend several hours preparing an idea to try recruiting for, when there is a 95% chance that I wont even get enough players wanting to take part to consider running the game, and in that rare 5% chance I will have at least one player just not bothering to show or just being plain toxic to the game killing it 3 sessions in. If I can't get to my minimum number of players through my various contacts, the time spent preparing a recruitment post is not worth it. The best thing I can say that you could action on this topic is that if you have far more players than GMs: Either step up to the plate and run things yourself, or if you are already doing so encourage others you think could handle it to do so as well. As for the rest of us, Well all I can really do is wish you the best of luck finding players, as there isn't really any way to fix that issue.
hey were doing a game right now and need players epic dnd 3.5 skype xdarkstaikerx
GMing can be a tiring, frustrating, and thankless job. The ratio problem isnt just a problem for players, its a problem for GMS, as i've gone through so much rift raft looking for players its exhasting. Sometimes players just dont fit. Diff play styles, personalities, whatever. Its all good. But when you spend hours on one person only to have them drop the next week, its enough to make anyone want to stop DMing. As said above, communication, and honesty. Don't apply to an RP heavy game if that aint what youre into! For god sakes! If everyone is just realistic about what they're looking for it would save a lot of time for everyone and maybe make DMing more tolerable
Has been a known and growing problem on roll20 for some years. the real solution of course is that players step up and run games just like all the current game masters that are running games. These DMs all started as a player and one day they decided: "hey you know what I want to be a GM!" So now they are! Its like a miracle. Someone took initiative. there are also a lot of players who are content to sit in the chair with their bag of chips and soda and play while the GM's work multiple hours per week preparing for sometimes multiple games. lot of the players that I have recently met have this kind of attitude that they don't have the time to run a game yet they have time to play multiple games per week. so what's the solution? there is none because you can't change your attitude of the player with no initiative. Changes have to come from within the players. players are more than content to allow the GMs to do the majority of the work. I do see that there are a lot of players who love to create detailed characters and they support the games but those people are well outnumbered by the players who want to be given PDF files for the rules via Dropbox, and other hand holding. I'm not talking about people new to gaming. I am talking about the gimme gimme types. if you want to play in a game on roll 20, you almost have to run it yourself. it's fun to just be able to play. but yes it is like a job application these days to get into a game. and because of that I reject people who don't respond, people who take a week to get a character together, people who want illegal copies of the rules. I still manage to get games done. I'm nobody special. I do have decades of experience. anyone here On roll20 could run a game if they really wanted. Believe that.
You know, I am a potential DM/GM. I just don't like building a campaign as much as playing it. Finding games on roll20 hasn't been all that hard. At one point I had to bow out of two because real life got in the way and partly because of some terrible DM'ing. If you want to be in games: First: think of the character you want to play, then make your story/backround, and how you think you would be as that character. Boom, you now have someone you want to act out as. Adjust it according to the setting the DM provides, you have the general backround, changing the name of a few locations and parts should be easy. Second: Apply, a lot. Sure, you might not even be recognized in a lot of your posts, but hey, like you said, there's a ton more players than GMs, expect it and don't be discouraged. If your post shows that you actually put thought and effort into your character creation, and you -at least try- to RP, people will notice you. Third: Once you are accepted, be a part of the campaign, live inside it. Hell, I got asked to 'tone it down' a bit by one of my current DMs because my war domain cleric is too aggressive and i might take too much of the spotlight, so, I did, and the game is hella fun. Fourth: Expect that you'll come across some really bad DMs too. I mean, people are people. No matter where, no matter when. You got the cream of the crop, you got the bottom of the barrel and then everything in between. My favorite DM sometimes frustrates me because of xyz technicality, but hey, everyone has their way of doing the same thing, and the game is still tons of fun overall, so why let 1 thing ruin it for everyone else? If you come across a bad DM, just tell him 'sorry dude, i am bowing out', and no hard feelings. If he holds any, who cares, you left him because you didnt mesh, go back to step 1.
Personally, I blame expectations just like some other GMs in here. That and listening. Like, -really- listening. Many applicants get so excited (at least thats what I think might be the reason) that they just say yes and agree to everything and then 2 hours into their session they get tired and confused 'what do you mean we are playing for 4-5 hours?'... Or those people (mostly students, sadly) that tell me even if they get a job or something they will be able to make the sessions just fine... And then they get a job and leave because its too stressfull. Emphasis on roleplaying is another big one, I always make sure to mention several times during the interview that we go whole sessions without combat. Sessions. And yes, those are the 4-5 hour session from earlier. So even if you ask all the right questions, stress all the important parts & give countless examples of past sessions, people will just nod and smile and say great & yes and then later leave because f.e. its too dramatic or time consuming to play out a discussion in character. *shrugs* I apologise for sounding bitter, I have just chanceled another campaign partially because people just kept leaving - and most of it was because of expectations (most recently f.e. personal problems, couldn't make the time after all and wanting to kill npcs for.not answering questions (standard bar patron)). Like someone else said here, if people were just honest about their expectations we could all find better players and GMs that suited our individual playstyles. And yes this goes for GMs too, because f.e. roleplay-heavy, sandbox or railroady means so many different things to so many different people. And so we just won't find what we are looking for. Or rather, it will be rare. *sits down and eats icecream*
Being a GM, I've been blessed with three players who I never had to replace and I don't want them replaced. We have a great time, laugh and goof around a lot, and they get into lots of trouble. The 4th and 5th player, always the difficult ones to keep whether it's a job or something else. Life happens so I don't hold it against them. It's the ones that just disappear bother me. *Sigh* Just tell me it's not the game you were looking for, and be done with it. Instead they fail to show up, vanish from Roll20, and decide not respond to my message. I would say the best thing I've ever gotten from a play one game and disappear from Roll20 completely player, is a ring for his token. I use that ring constantly for placing pictures for characters. Never had to design my own. The character was forgettable, but the token design wasn't. *Ask to have some ice cream*
Joseph Fernandez said: This has to be said. There are too many players and not enough GMs. This is especially bad for D&D/Pathfinder but seems to be an issue for nearly everything. A GM posts a LFG and within an hour there's 20-30 people posting. Now most GMs are not taking first come first serve and then it becomes like a job interview trying to get a GM to accept you into the game with 50 other players trying to get in. I'm not sure what the solution to this is, other then more people stepping up to GM, but there needs to be an easier way to find a game. Nothing you've said here is a negative thing, but you're definitely acting like it is. There are tons of pick-up games on Roll20 all the time. Mostly one-shots, but they occur. Constantly. You have to be vigilant in finding games. On the flipside, your example that a game gets posted and 20~30 people apply within an hour is false. I recently posted a LFG. It got one application in 12 hours. A second post giving me props for my standards, and then ~5 more actual players looking to join over the course of several days. This happens pretty regularly for a lot of complex, or nonstandard games. Exalted, WoD, D&D 4e. Additionally, you should kind of treat it like a job interview. GMs don't want flakes. They want people who are committed to joining their game and making it more fun. You know what's not fun? People who whinge, fail to show up for sessions, or who feel entitled. Why would I, as a GM, take anyone on First Come, First Serve if I can talk to them, figure out if they're good fits for a group, and then make a group that will last, and won't conflict constantly? What you need to do is feel less entitled to a spot in a game, and start making GMs think you're worth their time. If you prove to me that you're a valuable player, I'm more likely to extend future invites to other games to you. If you aren't, I won't feel bad when you ultimately tell me you're leaving the game. Try playing a game from the other side of the table and understand the effort that goes in, and how much of that effort is spent trying to find 4-6 people who aren't going to be at each other's throats constantly. That's your solution.
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For me, it really is me stating way ahead of time: I love my world, I love my Maps, I love giving players choices. I design the world and the world reacts. It is a sandbox. Choose your own adventure. And then the 5 Characters hear 6 in game job offers (That are not fetch the item, nor Rescue the Princess for coin"and "none of them pay enough..let's see what else the GM offers, because he has to give us something to do, right?" Then someone starts a bar fight, starts losing, pulls a blade and it's on. Survivors flee the city, and go into the wilderness, Hue and cry, chased by dogs. They murder someone for their cart. The Army is called out. "Wow, Such an exciting game!" cry the players, "We are now honest to Gygax outlaws!" They kill some army guys. More army guys come. The point is there is no endgame for them. A wizard offers to talk with the king of amnesty, for a pile of gold that they've gotten for robbing whole villages and small towns. They by luck manage to kill that Wizard. Eventually they are a major menace to the region. Either through bad luck or attrition, major NPCs get Crippled, or Killed. PCs get Jailed, Crippled or Killed. Final Chapter, I get accused of Choo Choo DMing and railroading. "We never had a chance!" DM, go write the damn novel. I have seen this, and seen this. It's not that it's heartbreaking, but I let people know way up front. Your choices determine the story. The world will react, then you choose again what to do. I literally weep tears of joy when I get characters with backstories, and who at least try to RP using voice, and think about their characters future, goals, and motivations, and relationships, and who really are here to roleplay as a hero. I have seen it, but it is rare. When I find it, it keeps me coming back. But I suspect a lot of GMs fall into the "people treat me as a disposable commodity." i.e. Let's play D&D, "oh wait, phone is ringing, I could jump my girlfriend instead. Blow off the game." I'm not saying don't have a relationship, and live for D&D. I am saying if I tell players I will be there, Friday night, i will be there unless it is a real emergency. I've committed 6 months or more of my future life to run this campaign, don't blow me off, and I will run it for whoever shows up and tries. Lots of people don't try. But there are DMs here who do. To find players, you just need to Say D&D / PF. To find a GM you need to break out of the pack, and know what you bring to the table. Not all groups, need the wanna be actor / roleplaying junkie. You need combat people and skill people and rules people and cheerleaders and leaders, and followers in a group. Know who you are, what your style is, and communicate to your GM. I have found many, and I will say STELLAR Gms here. Their key attribute is they go the extra mile, are willing to work with players, know what they are bringing, and let players know what they are bringing to the campaign. No surprises at the last minute. And finally they are willing to take the hit politically and get rid of bad apples who would otherwise wreck a game because of the one guy that's the egotistical spotlight hogger, or bully, or creepy innuendo specialist that harasses, insults or outright verbally abuses female players. We need more GMs, sure. Anyone can step up. Most of us who have been doing this for decades learned with very simple games like Traveller and Basic D&D, AD&D 1e, or Tunnels & Trolls, Star Frontiers, Top Secret, or Gamma World. I think it is a mistake for a New DM to start with something complex like 3.5. Once you know how it works it is okay, but there's just too much material, and it is off-putting. Starter games like Dragon Age, Old School D&D are good. I have seen a resurgence here in people seeking to play in honest to God 1st edition AD&D, likely because of the reprinted Old School revival. Hook up with Gold and get in touch with all of those people, It's wide open. Then by Dming you get to meet a dozen players. They know DMs and can get you into a game as their approved Good Buddy when someone else drops. Then you meet a good group and you are set. It's all about networking. I run campaigns, and then next time I run a different campaign I get people from the old one, that might like something different. It's a constant cycle of recruiting, but .. that's how it is. Step off the player pier into the shallow end, the water is warm, and we Dms welcome your efforts to serve the community. Over time you'll get seasoning, and be able to run anything, because you intimately understand how games work. GM: You see this. Player: I do That in response. GM Roll the dice. Player: Here is what I rolled. GM This is what happens. Now you see this. Rinse and repeat. That it. That's GMing. The rest is frills and artifice. If you can Make a decision, like a Judge in a court (and old School DMs were sometimes called Judges), and stick by it, you can be a GM. Good luck to all. Go forth and roll 3d6, and getsome NPcs going, right? Scratch a map on a sheet, and put in a town and a dungeon. Put in a forest and some rivers. Read the 1e AD&D DMG it shows you how to do all of this in about 15 pages. A lot of us did this as 13 year old kids, in the 70s. It's not tough, it is just NEW. Right. Salute to Mouse. Your efforts at being fair and cool are well respected.Good luck in your next game.
"how much of that effort is spent trying to find 4-6 people who aren't going to be at each other's throats constantly." Every game that I had that died suddenly, died for this reason. Thus the Application process. Word. that's a mouthful, right there.
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As one of the elder members of this site, I think I can provide an insight as to what is happening. I haven't joined a DnD styled game on roll20 for almost 1.5 years now because of how terrible the player base has gotten. My solution to playing good games was to play my niche games that people who aren't newbies or power gamers or that guys want to play. Though the player base has begun to slip in terms of quality. I could write a thesis on what's wrong with Roll20 right now, but to keep it short it's because good GM's and players bud off and don't return to the search pool once they find a whole group. Originally the site used to have a small community of very few niche people. These people were composed of good and bad players and good and bad GM's. What happens however is that when a GM made a game, they'd start searching for players and keep the good ones and kick the bad ones. Now the end goal of both players and GM's is to find a group of only good players. So when a group of only good players and a good GM was formed, they tend to bud off of the searching system. They have what they wanted and don't really need the rest of the community. This means that the number of good players and GM's drop decreases. Normally this would be offset by newbies being taught how to play and becoming good players. Problem is that when there's no one but bad players at start, the newbies become bad players who later become bad GM's. The problem is with bad players and GM's is that they don't know they're doing it... well badly. So we get this vicious cycle going of less and less good players and GM's being around and more and more bad players being around meaning more newbies become bad players. The loop thus has a positive feedback upon itself. Because the good players and GM's bud off from the group upon finding a complete group, the interactions of newbies with good players becomes a problem. As the spike in population occurred, more and more players were throwing themselves into the LFG system for games and finding only bad games to learn from causing more bad players. This means that a GM that wants good players has to go fishing through dozens of people to find the ones they want. The non-DnD games haven't had as much of a problem with this since they have a lower population and therefore GM's can take less time to find good players and to train newbies into being good players. Though this has become to stop with the increase in population again. <a href="http://i.imgur.com/dO4rxEk.png" rel="nofollow">http://i.imgur.com/dO4rxEk.png</a> Now how does this problem get fixed? Well the best thing is to prevent budding off from the pool. By having the good GM's return and train newbies along with bad players to not be terrible, there will be more games that open up that aren't terrible in the long run. This is a lot of work however and most GM's just keep budding off. Now you may be wondering why I believe this budding problem to be true and what's my evidence of it. My evidence actually has come from the games I play. Most of the games I play nowadays are Old World of Darkness, and we're very tight nit. I have contacts with players I've met and played with and most games I hear about on Roll20 never get advertized. There's an entire community of players that are looking for games that actively avoid the LFG system because they don't want to deal with players from it, and all of them are excellent GM's and players. Most of you should know this already. I use Roll20 to fill in the holes in my groups and to fish for newbies to train. But it's becoming a real problem to find a person whose a newbie without bad habits from player in some game to train and I can only take on 1-2 per game I run. Another thing I know from this small community hidden away is that they all hate the idea of players looking for a GM after they form the group. I personally think it's a terrible idea that they should tell the GM what he's to run, when to run it, and how to run it. It's still a serious problem though that these groups are forming, and every GM I know says a similar thing when they see it. It makes the LFG pool look terrible to fish from and it makes the players from it seem like a lot of work to fix. That's my 2 cents on the whole thing. I hope you guys find better games but I don't really fish much from here anymore, tired of bad players ruining games.
responding to doom. then how do you expect newbies or other players to find games if you cant get into one when using look for group? part of my problem is I play late night i know that but still if the problem GM's are looking for a certain class of players and newbies don't get into groups where else do we go but here this is the only other location i know i can look for games. also another reason why im always looking for a game is because of the GM's either to new to run it or has bad habbits so i understand where your coming from there and i know im not the best player i just need to be taught but i don't want to be taught wrong.
lord4571 said: responding to doom. then how do you expect newbies or other players to find games if you cant get into one when using look for group? I don't want to come off confrontational, so understand that I'm in the same boat as you, and would love to have the community grow and improve. (As it is, I GM because I only found one game after many months of searching, and I was not a good fit so bowed out on good terms.) I want to know why you don't you run a game yourself, lord4571. You've got hundreds of hours logged on roll20, so I imagine you'd be savvy enough with both the technical aspect and the rules of 3.5/PF. Whatever your answer is, that answer is one of the reasons there are not more GMs. Other reasons include: "It's too much work", "I'm not familiar enough with the rules", and "I'd rather play than arbitrate". As for your comment "I know I'm not the best player, I just need to be taught", I think most of what Doom alludes to with his good player/bad player schtick isn't aptitude, but attitude. If you're a novice player with a good attitude, you will eventually find a game, and then the GM will never want to let you go. If you ditch the GM at this point for being "too new", it's on you for not having patience. As for Joseph Fernandez , the topic creator, you haven't posted many comments or created many topics, so unless you're sending a ton of PMs, I think you may need to put in more leg work searching for a game that fits your schedule. /comment Do not read the following as it is a rant and therefore has no place on the internet where only civil discussion is held: Stop being timid, lazy, and/or selfish, and start creating games instead of sitting around waiting for your game to be made for you. If I had it my way, there wouldn't be a single player allowed into a game unless they've already taken it upon themselves to crack open a rulebook, listen to a podcast, or do whatever the hell else they need to do in order to mentally prepare and just OWNED UP and SERIOUSLY AND SINCERELY offered to run a game. Repay the effort GMs put into running games. Pay it forward, pay it in advance, and know that all you get out of it is a better understanding of the rules, a chance to develop your ability to role play, a better understanding of roll20, and the right to finally legitimately complain about the lack of GMs available to run games.
i have a party ... but i have been looking for a DM for 2 weeks now
Doom said: but I don't really fish much from here anymore, tired of bad players ruining games. But you do take the time to shit on people looking for games, I've seen. You love to jump into literally every thread where someone looks for Exalted (or WoD, or anyone whom you think you can get a rise from) to tell them that it's pointless, that everyone is terrible, and how they should just stop. Perhaps you could... stick to that 'hidden community'? They sound like elitists and should stay hidden. Even if I agree with what you say, you still come off as a pompous ass. All the time. Which makes your point sound like just a windbag blowhard... well... blowing.
Animus said: But you do take the time to shit on people looking for games, I've seen. You love to jump into literally every thread where someone looks for Exalted (or WoD, or anyone whom you think you can get a rise from) to tell them that it's pointless, that everyone is terrible, and how they should just stop. Perhaps you could... stick to that 'hidden community'? They sound like elitists and should stay hidden. Even if I agree with what you say, you still come off as a pompous ass. All the time. Which makes your point sound like just a windbag blowhard... well... blowing. That's some great personal assault there and baseless accusation. And also reinforcing the stereotype of the place. But if you want to sit there and call names on people, I'm not going to care much about what you call me and I'm pretty sure it upsets the Mods. Good to know you misinterpret recommendations to people though. Have fun doing whatever you do.
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Doom said: As one of the elder members of this site, I think I can provide an insight as to what is happening. I haven't joined a DnD styled game on roll20 for almost 1.5 years now because of how terrible the player base has gotten. My solution to playing good games was to play my niche games that people who aren't newbies or power gamers or that guys want to play. Though the player base has begun to slip in terms of quality. I could write a thesis on what's wrong with Roll20 right now, but to keep it short it's because good GM's and players bud off and don't return to the search pool once they find a whole group. *eyeroll* Look man, you might be an elder member of the site and I might be relatively new to roll20, but if you're ever under a delusion that a player base has gotten "terrible" on a general tabletop gaming platform , where the platform is completely system agnostic and does not appeal to any specific kind of gamer, then you're clearly just here to reinforce your own beliefs. It'd be one thing if you were to say this about a PbP site, where the medium naturally attracts certain kinds of players, but that argument makes zero sense on a platform like this. You say that it's because "good GM's and players bud off and don't return to the search pool", but unless you can point out specifically that the percentage of good DMs/players that started the site was greater than that percentage in relation to the new people attracted to roll20, the argument doesn't hold any water. Both good AND bad GMs/players come to the site and, assuming that a regular stream of new interest comes every once in a while, that percentage isn't going to magically deviate from the original "good GM/player" percentage the site started with unless the original pool that started roll20 was vetted in the first place. If you're running into bad players, tough luck. Things happen. But unless you can point to a specific aspect of a tabletop or community that attracts bad apples, then don't start blaming the D&D community or the newbies to the site, because, for all you know, it might be something on your end. Seriously. Don't start blaming the community and acting like it has a crappy player base. Roll20 probably has a more varied and lively player base than the vast majority of tabletop sites out there.
Just saying I only started playing table tops about 2 weeks ago and i've had no trouble finding what is now 3-4 campaigns I'm in a week all of which have amazing GMs and good guys.
I agree with most of what Doom said. Gygax himself wrote on this topic years ago in GM mastery. Once players get experience, they become veterans, like the game, settle down, and become a small Core Group, that adds or subtracts a small amount of players over time, but that group, pretty much stops as a resource for mass teaching of the game, because they are already running what they need to run. I won't agree with the part of quality of player declining over time, but the numbers of people frustrated that they can't find a game increasing over time, because of the refusal ro create more Gms from inside the pool of players who are looking for a game, can't find one. This is exaclty why I run niche games that are old school, or Narrative style. They pop up here rarely. Traveller. Most have heard of it after mongoose got involved, but really it's a game for old school gamers from the 70s and 80, although there are some that have been brought into the fold of players that love it now as Narrative style since they re-wrote the manual, literally on lifepath / character generation. A song of Ice and fire will attract game of thrones fans. Lots of those, but in the end, people are told D&D is the stuff, D&D has .pdfs floating around, and people willing to share it on dropbox, and so they play 3.5, 5th, or Pathfinder. Not saying everyone, but we have seen videos on how to scan 5th edition player handbook, and make it a series of 1000 journal entries on roll20. Niche games like James Bond 007. Who plays that? OId school players who went out and bought books and read them. I think there are still lots and lots og good players and GMs in the looking for a game pool of candidates. But there are also a number of people in the Looking for a game, any game, and when a game is offerred, nope, GM you are not good enough, and never respond pool. How do I know this? I have been recruiting for One ring RPG for a week. 7 people out of the what is it 250,000? ( I don't know the number of total players, but wild guess, right?) players here said hello. All 7 got hired. No qualifications, test or nothing. No fill out this form that confirms you are willing to type to me for a few hours to get into a game. No need to xerox me a copy of your I am a cool gamer license, and a copy of your credit report. All you needed to do was confirm skpe access, you are willing to learn or try narrative, and can play friday nights. Check it out. In the land of impossible to find a game or aGM willing to let you in, 7 people found a game. And countless others did too, only they are notr spilling the beans here like I am because they don't want to get spammed for being "Easy" as a GM. Recruiting is now closed. I found my group. They found me. Now we are out of the pool for multiple months. When we get done with the campaign, will we play again? Sure, different game maybe some drift off, but we'll have a core, to game with because people were willing to give me a try, and I was willing to step up there and say, i am running X at X time, and post multiple hours per day, defining what i had to offer as a GM. We are all excited. Multiple players have started getting characters together for next week, posting pictures for their characters, and going shopping for gear, and asking questions about where we will start the campaign, who are the comrades in their fellowship. All of those people, 408 people that viewed the threads we used for recruiting, and didn't apply, obviously, my offer did not meet your needs, and good luck to you. The uncounted masses who saw "This is not D&D or Pathfinder" and didn't even check what One Ring was about, or got bent out of shape because I said up front. I do not have pdfs to share go buy the rules, good luck to you. This is why I run niche, narrative games. The people that like them, love them. A few of my players are Gms for the game. I did not even have to go to cubicle 7's site. The system works for me. And does work for people willing to put in the work, or GIVE THEMSELVES an OPENING into a new type of Game, or take a chance. This is not me bragging I found my group. This is me saying, yeah there are games here. and could be more if everyone who says no games here, started running one. That's the real solution, all things being equal. I started running games at age 11 in 1977 for other 11 year old kids who thought Star Wars was cool, and here is a game where you can pretend you are a space hero, called Classic Traveller. That Book, the Traveller book can be had on ebay for 20 bucks. It taught me how to think about campaign creation, and create a whole damn universe. Then I played Gamma World in 1978, for 12 year olds. Then D&D in 1979 for 13 year olds. All of the old school players and GMs I know started with BECMI in those days, and many of them are Gms now for 3.5, and 5th and Pathfinder because of it. Ebay sell all of this stuff. look at how many people here are seeking 1e,or 2e. Gold's crew has hundreds of people. 20 bucks, pick a game. Buy the rules run it and find players. a motivated 11 year old can do this.
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There is a simple solution. Find a group.... get to know each other. Take turns being the GM, perhaps set up multiple game nights with the same group. Teach each other to be a GM.... voila more are born! Yes GMs are hard to come by but in all honestly I understand why. A lot of you treat them poorly. Making over powered characters, abusing their lack of knowledge, meta gaming, rules lawyering and more. I have seen this in a number of games I joined to support the GM and it was really sad how experienced players abused them. Later I found out the GM wants to quit because they are frustrated by the whole situation.
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response to Daniel T. the reason why I haven't ran my own game yet is because im not as savvy as you may be thinking what I do have a hold of is kinda how combat works (not everything) I dont know how most aspects of magic and spells work. I dont have a campaign to run or be able to acess it easily yet, and my RP isn't good out of combat. like doom said earlier players who are bad or has bad habbits have those same problems as a GM and it will only cause more problems. so could I run one yes. effectively or fun less likely. so that is y I haven ran one yet im still learning as I said before and again I play late night so that I know is a reason why I cant find games unless im blind and they are there. im looking for games around 10:00pm+ start time PST which my whole time here seems to be a dead time for games. so im not trying to complain or cause problems same as you Daniel I was just seeing if there was anything else there can be done I know there needs to be more GM's but before a player becomes one shouldn't they feel like they are able to before they do? or would you rather have them jump in try to run there own and have a chance to be total crap (not saying it will). to me most of what I read is you guys have been saying more players should become GM's. so if you have some one like me who isn't sure he can run one right how would you fix that problem. also I have tried looking for campagins that are premade by other people and id be happy to run a premade one for practice but when ive searched I couldn't find any that was more then 5 sessions and im to busy to make one which I know that was said as most of the answers was I dont have time to make one but its still a reason. so those are the reasons why I haven't ran my own, my question to you guys, and what ive tried to do to try to run one. in response to secret. that is also ture and ive seen it happen so idk what is OP or right ive heard rules be argued and seen players do everthing for everyone, and have had some with high bluff and just bullshit or make jokes the whole time making you question if they are taking it seriously so idk what to do with those players if I end up with one or two of them. if I kick them out then id have to find other people and catch them up then hope they dont do the same and these people are the exprinced ones.
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Reading these responses definitely helped me understand some things. First of all, there is quite a bit of elitism here. I want to make it clear that while I don't have much experience on roll20 I've been playing some form of D&D off and on since the 80s. I know how to write a character back story and do so in every application. For those who say just bite the bullet and run a game... I've tried GMing in the past. I'm simply not good at it. Its also simply not fun to me... I'm not a terribly creative person and I'm much better when I can be part of someone's story rather then trying to create the story myself. There's quite a bit of people out there like me. Theres also lots of new people... Many who have lots to learn about RPing. Should they be turned down from being able to play because according to some they are "bad players". This hobby needs to be more inclusive and less elitist. If the elitists have their way, then tabletop RPGs will be dead soon and the elitists will be the only ones left.
Joseph Fernandez said: I'm not a terribly creative person and I'm much better when I can be part of someone's story rather then trying to create the story myself. There's quite a bit of people out there like me. Going to say, this is a lot of your problem. I personally don't put forward games where I'm looking to tell a story to my players. And as a result, that means player creativity and agency is a lot more important. A lot of other GMs also do this - there's a time and place for rails, but so few use them effectively - so, when you say "I'm not very creative." GMs turn -off-. It has nothing to do with personality, nothing to do with playstyle. It's likely entirely because you're looking to play a game of imagination, where you want to play the follower and put let everyone else tote you about on a leash. Sucks to say, but I know I don't want that. Players who tell me they're not leaders, or take-charge players, or that they love to approach things from a tactical and advisory role, means that I tend to pass them over. Who cares if every decision the group is optimal, or everyone agrees to it? Sometimes leaping without looking means taking a chance, and those chances can benefit you. Why play every game like a democracy? In the end, it really does boil down to: find a story to tell with your character. Don't let the GM tell you what story to tell with your character. That should be your call.
Animus said: Joseph Fernandez said: I'm not a terribly creative person and I'm much better when I can be part of someone's story rather then trying to create the story myself. There's quite a bit of people out there like me. Going to say, this is a lot of your problem. I personally don't put forward games where I'm looking to tell a story to my players. And as a result, that means player creativity and agency is a lot more important. A lot of other GMs also do this - there's a time and place for rails, but so few use them effectively - so, when you say "I'm not very creative." GMs turn -off-. It has nothing to do with personality, nothing to do with playstyle. It's likely entirely because you're looking to play a game of imagination, where you want to play the follower and put let everyone else tote you about on a leash. Sucks to say, but I know I don't want that. Players who tell me they're not leaders, or take-charge players, or that they love to approach things from a tactical and advisory role, means that I tend to pass them over. Who cares if every decision the group is optimal, or everyone agrees to it? Sometimes leaping without looking means taking a chance, and those chances can benefit you. Why play every game like a democracy? In the end, it really does boil down to: find a story to tell with your character. Don't let the GM tell you what story to tell with your character. That should be your call. This post just screams elitism and exclusivity. People with varying skill sets should be able to play RPGs and that includes people who aren't creative. You're also assuming that someone who doesn't want to or can't go so far as to create the story and GM also can't RP a single character. I'm not a huge fan of railroady hack and slash either and I'm definitely capable of problem solving and roleplaying. Remember this is a GAME and a hobby, not work and not a chore. Some people just want to play games, and should be allowed to do so.
lord4571 said: so if you have some one like me who isn't sure he can run one right how would you fix that problem. I wasn't sure. I was a kid, not even a teenager. I didn't worry about "Running it right." I ran it till I got better. My first D&D adventure, Age 13 I had already run Traveller, but never had a deal only hit by magical weapons. soo in D&D there were werewolves attacking. The party had no magic weapons. I kept trying to give them hints to run.. your weapons are not doing any damage. They lost half the party, and finally ran. I learned a lot from that whole deal, the players forgave me, and I got better. if I kick them out then id have to find other people and catch them up then hope they dont do the same. Yes, you would have to do that. So do it. If they are wasting your time, ask them to work with you in private, do not try and shame them. If they don't work with you, move on. Finding players for your game group is like finding a girlfriend. See if it's a good match, does it work out, is everyone happy. If not you leave or they do. Communication and knowing what you are looking for and what you are willing to deal with is key to the whole thing. You only know combat. you don't know spells. so run a simple fighter based game, and read. Slowly introduce spells, a few at a time. Run a very simple game like older Basic D&D, to learn HOW ROLEPLAYING GAMES WORK. GM: This is Happening. What to do you do? Player: I do this. GM: This happens. That's it. Everything else is extra. Good luck. SECRET: You said a whole bunch of Truth. Oh yeah. Wary, a lot of times these days.