Cleric question

In our party, I play a cleric of St. Cuthbert, so he's lawful neutral and pretty rigid about codes of conduct. A while back, one of wizards (chaotic neutral) decided to take it upon himself to scorching ray an unconscious woman because "she was working with a necromancer", right after my cleric said "We should take her to the temple and have a mark of justice put down on her, so she will never do this again". So my cleric gets pretty mad that 1) his advice is ignored, and 2) because the wizard half-incinerated an unconscious halfling woman in broad daylight, in public. Basically, he challenged him to a duel, and had a decent anti-mage spell list ready, which, if used correctly, would've made the wizard pretty sad. Here's the list (the wizard uses mainly fire and acid spells) 0-Resistance- +1 on saving throws. 0-Create Water- 8 gallons of water wherever. (cannot be created inside living things) 0-Create Water-^ 0-Create Water-^ 0-Create Water-^ 1-Divine Favor- +2 to attack and damage rolls 1-Sanctuary- Cannot be attacked directly, including spells unless enemy succeeds on DC15 Will save*. 1-Magic Weapon-+1 to attack and damage rolls with weapon. 1-Shield of Faith- +2 to AC 1-Entropic Shield- All ranged attacks have 20% miss chance. *2-Owl’s Wisdom- +4 Wisdom (+2 Wis Mod, +2 Will saves, +2 DC to spells) 2-Silence- 20ft. radius (40ft diameter) sphere of no sound; Verbal components of spells are nullified, spells fail. Can be cast on a target (Will save negates; DC16*), or a point in space. 2- Summon Monster II- Celestial Riding Dog (1d6+3 damage, 40ft speed, +2 initiative, AC16, touch 12), or Lemure (1d4+2 1d4+2 (2 claws), BAB+2, 20 ft speed, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid and cold 10) 2-Resist Energy- Damage reduction 10 (-10 damage each time) against one type of energy for 40 minutes. 3-Protection from Energy- Absorb 48 points of damage of one type of energy. 4-Freedom of Movement- Move as if unimpeded for 40 minutes. All slowing effects nullified during this time, including grapples. The wizard has this time slowing spell that makes things move at 10% speed, which is why I had Freedom of Movement, and the various protection spells should be obvious. Well, obviously I cast FoM first, and immediately after the wizard casts his timeslow spell, and the DM says I'm moving at 10% speed. After a debate about what counts as slowing effects, the DM compromises and makes me sacrifice my Protection From Energy spell to get out of timeslow, which, even with my Resist Energy, would not be enough against this glasscannon. After a long fight, the result of which is a twice-broken sternum and Fortitude saves to move in any way or collapse for the cleric, and a broken arm for the wizard, my cleric yields, and the wizard casts Acid Splash just because he felt like it on my beaten cleric, who has been burned, dissolved, and broken already. Story moves on, my cleric is alright after some healing, and gets some very nice perks (long story). Naturally, however, he's pretty upset at having lost to a frail 70 year old madman in the name of justice, so he's on his way to becoming a Witch Hunter. Now, besides reading the Quintessential Cleric II, Witch Hunter section, I know nothing about the class. Could someone explain to me how I get it, what I get from it, and how I should modify it for maximum killwizard.exe ?

wizards out cast clerics. Don't let it become a spell dual. Find every way to keep him from casting spells including summoned monsters with readied actions to interrupt his casting(also as I recall riding dogs get a free trip attempt when they land an attack including attacks of opportunity and what not.) Clerics win at throw down fights. Personally the GM jibbed you on the FoM spell. Were you unable to get silence to stick?  But if you really want to shut down a wizard just grapple him.

William P. said: wizards out cast clerics. Don't let it become a spell dual. Find every way to keep him from casting spells including summoned monsters with readied actions to interrupt his casting(also as I recall riding dogs get a free trip attempt when they land an attack including attacks of opportunity and what not.) Clerics win at throw down fights. Personally the GM jibbed you on the FoM spell. Were you unable to get silence to stick?  But if you really want to shut down a wizard just grapple him. The Wizard has a +9 Will Save, casting silence on him would've been a DC18 with Owl's Wisdom, and he's pretty lucky with rolls. I wanted to corner him in one part of the arena , the part I cast Silence on (my folly, I should've tried it on him (though I guess I could've cast it on his quarterstaff....)). I have speed 20ft. because of Half-plate armour, he had speed 30 ft, there was no way to outrun him, especially after the obligatory Fortitude saves for anything involving movement. Any time I did get him down to about 10% health with my mace, he would just run away and drink a potion. Regardless, my cleric lost and I want him to be better at slaying spellcasters, because mundanes are already handled.

Why did you bring armor to that duel? Were you afraid he was going to his you with a stick? When you duel a wizard, leave the armor at home.

I had no choice --we were both teleported as we were to the arena by DM's demigod.

You could cast silence on yourself and then just stay next to the wizard and pummel him.  What edition is this? - Gauss

Couldn't catch up to him, I know, stupid.  But seriously --witch hunter? 

My advice: Don't go witch hunter. Best wizard killer is pure cleric (or pure druid, I guess).

Sandman, who needs to catch up with him? There are quite a few ways to silence a wizard. Summon a creature and silence it before it goes to attack the wizard. Of course, I still don't know which edition we are discussing so my idea may not hold much merit. I am primarily familiar with 3.5/Pathfinder. - Gauss

Rystefn K. said: My advice: Don't go witch hunter. Best wizard killer is pure cleric (or pure druid, I guess). I would argue also Monk is a great spellcasterkiller with it's speed, Evasion, damage, SR and good saves :-)  Yes, silencing the wizard should be no problem. At least as Gauss also says, in Pathfinder /3.5.

Yeah, I figured THAT out AFTER he defeated me.  But why not witch hunter? 

Why don't you want to answer what version you play, so we can easier help you? 

the trade offs for going witch hunter just aren't worth it. Pure cleric is a beast. Just remember that a typical spell caster's weaknesses are low AC, Low Fort save, Low reflex, and Low HP. Cotangent with blinding sickness is an amazing spell. Not sure what your domains are, but I'm also of the opinion that you should stick cleric. Also Spell Imunity would be a must for what you are trying to do, as well as trying to find some decent light armor, or mithral breast plate, a cloak of resistence and a ring of evasion.

btw, what is this time slowing spell? I don't think i've ever heard of it.

3.5 D&D The time slowing spell is a spell given to the wizard by the DM for rolling a nat20 on a certain Spellcraft check... Most OP spell ever, and it's considered a Lv2 spell.  I'll look into spell immunity, though I doubt my DM will allow it, so I'll go for something like a shield that blocks spells. 

I hate to say this brosaph, but the GM stacked the deck against you. I wouldn't get bent out of shape over a duel where you were set up to lose.

ok, so spell imunity is a PF spell. Probalby won't help you. I'd have to take a look at 3.5

Hmm. I knew I was at a disadvantage against the wizard, I just didn't know I'd get my FoM spell nullified and that I'd have to sacrifice my Protection from Energy to counter the timeslow. Which I suspect I'll be peeved about for quite a while. Anyhoots, thanks, guys. I'll sit down with the DM and talk about some things. I'll stick with cleric because that seems to be the common preference as opposed to specialising. Though I'll definitely be looking into stuff that makes spellcasters sad, so I can have (as a player) some sweet, sweet retribution for his rather embarrassing defeat, by going straight for enemy spellcasters. Oh, and as for stuff like Contagion and Bestow Curse-- The DM homebrewed a deity that controls all necromancy (regardless of its actual necromantic properties, just anything labeled as in the school of necromancy), and made the deity forbid the use of necromancy unless you are his servant. So stuff like Bestow Curse and Contagion, I can't use, but that's a wholly different peeve.

Spell Immunity is a 3.5 spell also. PHB page 282. Nothing about it is GM fiat. What are the respective levels? Even with the GM stacking things we may be able to figure something out within the 3.5 rules.  - Gauss

Honestly, I'd just walk. Ten to one, your DM doesn't even realize he just stripped about 50% of clerics of their spontaneous casting.

I was reading through your spell list. If you have 4th level spells you should be at least a 7th level cleric. Here are some corrections to the information you posted:  Resist Energy: at 7th level the Energy Resistance is 20 not 10. The Duration is 70 minutes not 40. That will absorb much of a wizards energy damage right there.  Shield of Faith: at level 7 you should have a +3 deflection bonus, not a +2.  Protection from Energy: at level 7 you should have 84 points of energy resistance.  Freedom of Movement: at level 7 you should have 70 minutes of this.  PHB spells (without Will saves) to consider (by level):  Obscuring Mist (1):  cannot target you if he cannot see you. Darkness (2):  Cannot target you if he cannot see you.  Silence (2): Use this as a readied action if he casts a spell. It will automatically disrupt any verbal spell.  Spiritual Weapon (2):  This follows him around regardless of his speed. Blindness/Deafness (3):  This will ruin his day PERIOD. Fort save NOT Will save. Wizards are not known for their Fort saves. Cannot target you if he cannot see you.  Dispel Magic (3): assuming equal levels you have about a 50/50 chance of dispelling his spells.  Meld into Stone (3): If the arena is made of stone you could use this if he doesn't have anything to damage stone with. You can use the time in the stone to let spell effects expire.  Freedom of Movement (4): Still a good spell (see below).  Spell Immunity (4): Make yourself immune to one of his spells.  The key here is to disrupt his spells until he runs out. I love silence for this purpose. Ready an action, if he starts casting your readied action goes off. You cast Silence and he cannot finish his spell because he is now in an area of silence.  Regarding the special spell he has, please direct your GM to compare it to Solid Fog (PHB p281). If it does more than Solid Fog it should NOT be a level 2 spell. Period. Additionally, Freedom of Movement should absolutely work against any effect that slows the player down. There is nothing in the rules that allow the GM to cost you a second spell to ignore a spell that the first spell clearly works against.  Also, what are your Domains ? I do not see Domains or Domain spells listed. Finally, master Readied actions . They are spellcaster killers.  You ready an action to cast Silence on the area the other spellcaster is in IF he casts a spell. He begins casting, you hit his area with Silence. Since your action goes off before his but he is already in his, it disrupts the spell (assuming a verbal component). The great part? you still go before him next turn. Additionally, you can still take a move action and move towards him and then ready the action. If you have a Spiritual weapon pounding away on him you eventually gain the upper hand.  - Gauss

Rystefn K. said: Honestly, I'd just walk. Ten to one, your DM doesn't even realize he just stripped about 50% of clerics of their spontaneous casting. I told him that. He said "No necromancy", to which I replied "But channeling negative energy doesn't automatically equal necromancy..." he said "Necromancy=negative energy, so no" He's otherwise an excellent DM, he made an entire planet and continents and towns and cities as well as local lore for each, for us to play through. He makes sure none of us die unfairly (well, this was the exception, except Burr survived because the wizard had nothing left to hit him with) Gauss said: I was reading through your spell list. If you have 4th level spells you should be at least a 7th level cleric. Here are some corrections to the information you posted:  Resist Energy: at 7th level the Energy Resistance is 20 not 10. The Duration is 70 minutes not 40. That will absorb much of a wizards energy damage right there.  Shield of Faith: at level 7 you should have a +3 deflection bonus, not a +2.  Protection from Energy: at level 7 you should have 84 points of energy resistance.  Freedom of Movement: at level 7 you should have 70 minutes of this.  PHB spells (without Will saves) to consider (by level):  Obscuring Mist (1):  cannot target you if he cannot see you. Darkness (2):  Cannot target you if he cannot see you.  Silence (2): Use this as a readied action if he casts a spell. It will automatically disrupt any verbal spell.  Spiritual Weapon (2):  This follows him around regardless of his speed. Blindness/Deafness (3):  This will ruin his day PERIOD. Fort save NOT Will save. Wizards are not known for their Fort saves. Cannot target you if he cannot see you.  Dispel Magic (3): assuming equal levels you have about a 50/50 chance of dispelling his spells.  Meld into Stone (3): If the arena is made of stone you could use this if he doesn't have anything to damage stone with. You can use the time in the stone to let spell effects expire.  Freedom of Movement (4): Still a good spell (see below).  Spell Immunity (4): Make yourself immune to one of his spells.  The key here is to disrupt his spells until he runs out. I love silence for this purpose. Ready an action, if he starts casting your readied action goes off. You cast Silence and he cannot finish his spell because he is now in an area of silence.  Regarding the special spell he has, please direct your GM to compare it to Solid Fog (PHB p281). If it does more than Solid Fog it should NOT be a level 2 spell. Period. Additionally, Freedom of Movement should absolutely work against any effect that slows the player down. There is nothing in the rules that allow the GM to cost you a second spell to ignore a spell that the first spell clearly works against.  Also, what are your Domains ? I do not see Domains or Domain spells listed. Finally, master Readied actions. They are spellcaster killers.  You ready an action to cast Silence on the area the other spellcaster is in IF he casts a spell. He begins casting, you hit his area with Silence. Since your action goes off before his but he is already in his, it disrupts the spell (assuming a verbal component). The great part? you still go before him next turn. Additionally, you can still take a move action and move towards him and then ready the action. If you have a Spiritual weapon pounding away on him you eventually gain the upper hand.  - Gauss This is where DM's magic rules get weird. He said clerics get bonus spells immediately, adding to your regular spell slots and stuff. So Burr is a level 4 cleric with one level 4 spell and 1 level 3 spell. Yes, I realise how broken it is. So all the x/caster level things are set to level 4. And this is how the wizards make up for their lack of instant bonus spells: They can make one spell per day, provided they pass the DC the DM makes. Which is why when the wizard with Spellcraft 14 (or something of the like) rolled a natural 20 on the check, the DM was like "omg u can haev anee spull u wunt" and the timeslow spell was created. Yes, yes, and yes, I understand how broken everything is. However, I'd rather not touch the DM's world because 1) he's our only DM and none of us know how to DM 2) had it not been for a few level 3 and a couple level 4 spontaneous heals, the party would have died pretty quickly because of the DM's hitpoint/damage economy. As for Readied actions, I have no idea why I didn't think of that. Though, he probably would've just said "you can't ready a spell and hold it while running and hitting things".

Overall, however I'm gonna try and argue all of these points with him, because for now, they're fixable. The necromancy  rule is ridiculous (example: if one deity controls a school of magic, why doesn't a god/goddess of magic override him? Or if that deity's such a jerk, why don't the other deities get rid of him?) and rids clerics of about 15% of their total spells. Also, I'll argue that Spellcrafting should mean deciphering and understanding magic writings in which spells are contained. Another thing will be to actually BALANCE things, as opposed to "natural 20 defeats all". Again, thanks for the thread, I'm definitely keeping these tips and tricks in mind for future conflicts.

I do not understand why he would ban Necromancy. Contrary to popular belief, it is not inherently Evil. About 1/3 of the Necro spell list are actually evil while the rest are just interesting spells such as Bestow Curse and Blindness/Deafness. Necromancy is one of the major schools of magic for clerics. Removing it from clerics nerfs them in a major way.  Regarding Readied actions, I would just point out the section of the book on actions.  Readying an action is a standard action. That means you have a move action available before you ready your action. Move, ready. In any case, with this many houserules it is no wonder things are wonky. Sorry man, I don't think there is anything more anyone can do for you.  - Gauss

Find a new DM. This one is bunk.

Gauss you got some excellent mage killing info there. Sandman I know that DMing might seem like this mythical thing, but honestly you should just give it a shot. Run from the seat of your pants or try a one shot. I know your DM put a lot of work into his world, but messing with magic is hard to do and keep any sense of balance to begin with. If you like playing in the game thats your thing, but it sounds like he is trying to turn it into the wizard show.

Gauss said: I do not understand why he would ban Necromancy. Contrary to popular belief, it is not inherently Evil. About 1/3 of the Necro spell list are actually evil while the rest are just interesting spells such as Bestow Curse and Blindness/Deafness. Necromancy is one of the major schools of magic for clerics. Removing it from clerics nerfs them in a major way.  Regarding Readied actions, I would just point out the section of the book on actions.  Readying an action is a standard action. That means you have a move action available before you ready your action. Move, ready. In any case, with this many houserules it is no wonder things are wonky. Sorry man, I don't think there is anything more anyone can do for you.  - Gauss I told him the same thing, that not all necromancy is evil (I gave Death Knell as an example of evil necromancy and Disrupt Undead as an example of decent necromancy), and he just said "You make very good points, but that's not how this world is built. There is zero necromancy for non-servants of the necromancy god", to which I replied "Then deprive me of my Cure spells-- they manipulate life force, and by your logic, are necromancy." "No, the party would die" "Exactly. Necromancy is essential for clerics." I suppose I'll tell him about Readied actions just to try to convince him that there is a reason we read the rulebooks cover-to-cover, I'll tell you how it goes. I've slowly been introducing some points to him like "what if my church created a spell that damages ability scores and can have specific effects?" (I was talking about Bestow Curse, I just didn't want to directly mention it) "Wouldn't that be considered Transmutation?" "Yeah, I guess" he said. So I can eventually glean some spells from him, arguing they're from a different school, at least until he realises what I'm doing. HoneyBadger said: Find a new DM. This one is bunk. One of our wizards (not the one I dueled with, the other one (there are only 2, fyi)) actually tries to argue on my side and the side of the rulebook because he's just a rulebook kinda guy, He'd make a great DM if he had a creative streak (which I suppose we'll see once he gets some good illusion spells). Meanwhile, we'd have to explain the story in full thus far to a new DM, so we're just sticking with this one, hoping he'll realise how broken the game is by Level 6 or so. William P. said: Gauss you got some excellent mage killing info there. Sandman I know that DMing might seem like this mythical thing, but honestly you should just give it a shot. Run from the seat of your pants or try a one shot. I know your DM put a lot of work into his world, but messing with magic is hard to do and keep any sense of balance to begin with. If you like playing in the game thats your thing, but it sounds like he is trying to turn it into the wizard show. I am giving it a shot-- right here on roll20, actually. It's gone more or less smoothly for now, but I've gotta polish up my knowledge of the DM Guide.

Sandman, don't get too caught up on the rules form the DM guide. The problem a lot of DMs have is trying to over plan. Get the basics of the story you want to tell and some of the world and what not, think of some ways that the players might derail it and hold on to your ass cause they are about to take you for a ride.  Most other GMs can testify to that ;)

William P., thanks. :) I love my curse cleric builds and shutting down enemy spellcasters is really something clerics can excel at.  - Gauss

Hmm. Well, thanks again, guys. Wealth of good advice in this thread.