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Dynamic Lighting - Better darkvision support (e.g. D&D 5e)


Edited 1507205316
Thorsten B.
KS Backer
Edit 2017-10-05: As Scott C. points out, the current lighting system is already additive. Two dim lights don't make a bright, but they do add to more than one dim. That's good enough for me, and this suggestion is moot. Mods, can you close out and give people their votes back? To implement 5e-like darkvision, set your token to have vision, give it a light at just above desired range and start of dim -5. So for example, 60ft darkvision ends up as a 70ft light with a dim start of -5. I am unclear whether this always worked or started working with the Advanced Fog of War update. Light and especially dim light appear to have changed a bit in appearance, but it's been so long since I first tested this that it's entirely possible I had it wrong all along and it was working all along. Old post below. The current dynamic lighting system supports a "multiplier" that allows characters to see further than they usually can. The Wiki suggests that this allows for implementing D&D 5e's darkvision feature. Unfortunately, it doesn't. I'll get into details. After discussion in this thread, and Ed S. providing some clarity, a good way to solve 5e darkvision and similar designs is additive light: - Allow additive light sources. A dim (additive) light carried by the character would cause "darkness to be dim" and would cause "dim light to be bright". This would only require the light source to be marked as "additive", maybe by a check box. - Optionally, allow a character to carry up to two light sources. This would then allow for darkvision and an actual light source such as a torch, lamp, etc. How does 5e define darkvision? Out to a range, a creature with darkvision can "see in dim light as if it were bright, and in darkness as if it were dim light." The second part is easy. Give the token a light source that only it can see, with range a bit higher than the desired range (has to do with how dim light diminishes in roll20), dim start -5, and there you have your "in darkness as if it were dim light". The first part, see in dim light as if it were bright, is currently impossible in roll20. The wiki suggests to use the vision multiplier, but that doesn't have the desired effect. The wiki says: >> For example, darkvision of 60ft would look like: Light Radius = "60" Start of Dim = "-5" All Players See Light = "Unchecked" Has Sight = "Checked" Multiplier = "2"  >> The actual range of that light source aside - this comes out to 120ft and that's easily fixed - the multiplier here doesn't allow for "dim light as if it were bright". Some examples, assuming a creature with darkvision stands next to a light source: Moonbeam has 10ft dim. To this creature, that would now be 20ft dim (not counting its own dim light source) . It should be 10ft bright. A torch has 20ft bright, another 20ft dim. To this creature, that is now 40ft bright (that sounds like success), another 40ft dim. Which means the vision range has now been extended by 40ft. That wasn't intended. It should be 40ft bright, and then darkness (illuminated as dim by creature's darkvision). A lamp has 15ft bright, and another 30ft dim. To this creature, that is now 30ft bright, and another 60ft dim. It should be 45ft bright, and then darkness (illuminated as dim by creature's darkvision). By marking the dim darkvision light source as additive, dim light would now appear bright, bright light remains bright, and darkness is illuminated by dim light.
I don't know why this hasn't gotten more upvotes yet. I love roll20 and the dynamic lighting setting, but I can't stand it that 5e vision is just not supported.
I just posted this question in the wiki beside the multiplier entry. Nice to see I'm not crazy. Also, I feel like the multiplier used to work as intended in 5e... or maybe I'm remembering that wrong...

Edited 1455810361
Thorsten B.
KS Backer
Rethinking this, there is still an issue with "in darkness as if it were dim". If I give the creature a Dim light source, then that'd now be bright. Ugly. only solution i see off the top of my head is to add two options: dim is bright (range), and dark is dim (range). this would also allow a creature with darkvision to carry and extinguish a torch easily  Thoughts? Alternate solutions ?

Edited 1455848128
Ed S.
I too feel that this is something that should be addressed. Allow the light sources to be additive, that would allow us to add a dim light to a dim light to make it bright and fix the current setup to work as it is designed in 5E.
Thorsten B.
KS Backer
Ed, thank you. I was clearly heading down the wrong path here. I like your idea of additive light sources, it's a lot cleaner than "dim is bright" and "dark is dim". Original post edited with your idea.
+1 Dynamic lighting is such a cool feature, and we really could use this addition to it, to make 5e Vision actually work.
This could be helpful in pathfinder with the daylight spell as well.
+1 Can't believe we still don't have the ability to properly set up 5e darkvision.

Edited 1487779659
To take care of dark vision, I personally setup the tokens like this : Emits light Light radius : 40 ft. Start of dim : 20 ft. Angle : 360° All player see light : unchecked Has sight : checked, 360°, Multiplyer : 3 x (just realized there is a typo mistake xd) And for the tokens that do not have dark vision, I use the following : Emits light Light radius : 10 ft. Start of dim : 1 ft. Angle : 360° All player see light : unchecked Has sight : checked, 360°, Multiplyer : 1 x By doing that, I get characters that can see up to 120 ft. and the rest is still dark, so it is not overpowered (official maps use to be pretty small). Whenever a character carries a torch, I check 'All player see light' if it is a dark vision character, and I change the 10 ft./1 ft. to 40 ft. 20 ft. if it is a non dark vision character. I works well for me, isn't it something that could do what you had in mind ?
Hans, we all have ways of handling this and your way is as good as I've seen from anyone else.  The problem is that the system does not support the actual rules.  That is was this thread is requesting.  I still prefer the dynamic lighting system that Roll20 has versus any other service,but it would be nice if there was support for the way darkvision is supposed to work with 5e.  Or, an explanation from the devs why this is not possible/practical.
Thorsten B.
KS Backer
@Hans, Assuming 120ft of darkvision, your method gives 60ft of bright followed by 60ft of dim. That'll work for you in your game, isn't what the rules state though. Now that's easily fixed having dim start earlier, say at -5, and go out to roughly 130, which gives you 120 dim. What this doesn't do is handle torches or moonbeam correctly. In your setup, with x3, a darkvision character sees a torch as 60 bright followed by 60 dim. It should be 40 bright, followed by whatever dim their darkvision allows. In your setup, a darkvision character sees moonbeam as 30 dim. It should be 10 bright, followed by whatever dim their darkvision allows. So as @Ken says, it's not that darkvision can't be handled at all, it's that darkvision can't be displayed on screen in a way that follows the 5e rules for darkvision.
+1 to this, no idea why this haven't been implemented yet.
Scott C.
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, dynamic lighting sources are already additive, admittedly, it takes more than just two dim light sources to equal a bright, but still.

Edited 1507204715
Thorsten B.
KS Backer
You are 100% right, Scott. I didn't think they were additive, but they are. They don't add up to "bright", but they do add. Let me edit my original post.
Not sure whether I'm the only one having this problem, but if I set up my tokens one with darkvision (70, -5) and then have another token with a torch (20, 20) The token with darkvision doesn't see the light source near it (I have all players see light checked). Not only that creates an unrealistic situation, but it not making real "bright" light messes up advanced fog of war as well. If you have any suggestions on how to fix that, It'd be great, but until then, I'd still like to see a way to properly set up darkvision.
Do both tokens have "Has Sight" checked?
And yet, no one has come up with the fact that darkvision is greyscaled.  Wouldn't it be easier to hardcode this into the design of the Dynamic Lighting?  In other words, a check or radio box to determine NORMAL or DARKVISION, then allowing for other modifications to be made after DARKVISION is ruled out.  Darkvision can see irregardless, its just a matter of how far (normal or superior), so - if(darkvison=true, seeAll, SeeByLightSource).   Of course, I always wondered if darkvision was a duel or single changing sight; i.e.: can a character using darkvision be blinded by a light source?  Use a pair of nightvision goggles and have someone shine a light at you and see what happens (in the older models).  If its a duel sight (happening at the same time, no adjustment is made, so there wouldn't be blinding.  But if you 'switch to' darkvision, then u would be blinded.  Why is this important in this thread?  Because people carrying torches could blind the darkvision user.
Roll20 Mod Team
Thorsten B. said: Edit 2017-10-05: As Scott C. points out, the current lighting system is already additive. Two dim lights don't make a bright, but they do add to more than one dim. That's good enough for me, and this suggestion is moot. Mods, can you close out and give people their votes back? I'm not sure how this slipped through the cracks, but closing this thread due to OP request.