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Forum Sorting Changes

We've just pushed out a new update to the forums which changes a few things about how they work. In particular, the front page of the forums will now no longer show a post that is older than one week, even if there is new activity in that post (unless it's stickied). The reason we're making this change is that we want the front page to be more about new things happening in the Community, and less about mega-threads that have existed for months at a time. We've seen success with this approach for updates from Marketplace creators, for example, and with our own update threads, and want to get the programming community to use this approach as well. For API Script authors and Character Sheet authors, we recommend relying on the Wiki to create a page for the script/sheet with all the basic documentation that goes into using the sheet/script. Then, create posts more frequently on the forums to highlight new updates. So rather than using a post that is months old and has hundreds of replies (many of which don't actually relate anymore due to changes in the script/sheet and additionally slows down our servers to access), create a Wiki page, and then make a new post whenever you have a new update/version to share with the community. We think that this change will be much better for new users, since there will be less confusion about how old a topic is, where they should start reading it, etc. Thanks!
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Edited 1454366225
Kryx
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Gotta hit 1k posts first. ;) On a serious note many people subscribe to threads to get continuous updates. With this method many people would be unable to remain informed without seeking out that information.
1454367495

Edited 1454367738
vÍnce
Pro
Sheet Author
Sheets like Kryx's 5e Shaped and Pathfinder generate new activity nearly every hour... I assume users who follow a topic will still get the notice, it just won't show in the front page.  I think this may generate lot's of individual posts instead keeping them centralized and on-topic.
1454372700
Stephen S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Riley D. said: For API Script authors and Character Sheet authors, we recommend relying on the Wiki to create a page for the script/sheet with all the basic documentation that goes into using the sheet/script.  An update to API would really inspire WIKI updates... just saying... :)  forground layer, market access... and everythihng else I voted for :)
Vince said: Sheets like Kryx's 5e Shaped and Pathfinder generate new activity nearly every hour... I assume users who follow a topic will still get the notice, it just won't show in the front page.  I think this may generate lot's of individual posts instead keeping them centralized and on-topic. The goal isn't to create lots of individual posts, but the goal is definitely to start generating more than just one "mega-thread" per sheet/script.  Kryx said: On a serious note many people subscribe to threads to get continuous updates. With this method many people would be unable to remain informed without seeking out that information. I hadn't really thought about people using the "Follow Topic" system to get notified about updates. Honestly, that's not really what it's designed for, and it seems not super-great to use it for that. Mostly because that means everyone is getting every single new post notified to them even though my assumption is that most people really only care when the sheet/script author does something noteworthy (again, like releasing an update). I will see if we can come up with an alternate way to achieve that.
Does this affect the LFG forum?  It probably shouldn't, as a lot of times gathering a group takes longer than a week...
1454376644

Edited 1454385094
vÍnce
Pro
Sheet Author
Riley D. said: Vince said: Sheets like Kryx's 5e Shaped and Pathfinder generate new activity nearly every hour... I assume users who follow a topic will still get the notice, it just won't show in the front page.  I think this may generate lot's of individual posts instead keeping them centralized and on-topic. The goal isn't to create lots of individual posts, but the goal is definitely to start generating more than just one "mega-thread" per sheet/script.  Kryx said: On a serious note many people subscribe to threads to get continuous updates. With this method many people would be unable to remain informed without seeking out that information. I hadn't really thought about people using the "Follow Topic" system to get notified about updates. Honestly, that's not really what it's designed for, and it seems not super-great to use it for that. Mostly because that means everyone is getting every single new post notified to them even though my assumption is that most people really only care when the sheet/script author does something noteworthy (again, like releasing an update). I will see if we can come up with an alternate way to achieve that. I agree the "Mega-threads" are a pain.   The ability to search within a thread(all pages) would be nice.  ;-) Also, I use "Follow this Topic" on anything I'm interested in.  It's also come in very handy when solving issues on character sheets.  I'm sure every sheet author wants to know as soon as there's a bug...
1454378111

Edited 1454378258
I am not a new user, so I don't really know what is better for them, but having a centralized post doesn't seems like a bad thing to have for them. It's seems easier (at least for me) to find the info you are looking for. From the point of view of a sheet author (that I'm not) I think a centralized post is easier for you to keep track on what's happening, especially after an update (bugs,...). I mean, you asked to centralize all the bugs for the 5e OGL sheet, and that seems like a reasonable thing to do. And while you can fix all the bugs in 1 week, all sheet authors cannot work that fast. Imagine that, in 4 days, you don't have fixed all the bugs in your sheet. That would not be really practical to see your post disappear from the front page. If your goal is simply to not have huge thread, why not simply ask sheet authors to do a new post when it gets too huge ?  As a regular user who go sometimes on the forums, it's certainly easier to follow to the post devoted to your sheet so you can see what's happening, rather than going every 3-4 days on the forums to see if there is something new. "Follow topic" is maybe not there for us to see the updates, but it's the only way for us to see them, unless you go on the forums every day. If you find a alternative way, then I don't see any problem for me as a regular user. So, while this is maybe better for the new users, I think it is worse for sheet authors and regular users. I can understand that you want to promote new things (well, for API at least, I'm totally ok with that), but I think that old big topics with new things really need a place in the front page as well. Naturally, if that really slow you down from a technical point of view, well, I can understand that you don't want to see Kryx having 1k posts :p . Finally, I'm gonna be a bit more annoying and says that this would be a great feature, not for the sheet sub-forum, but for the Suggestion & Ideas sub-forum. The suggestions on the front page haven't change for a long time (since it's vote based), and two of them even have the "complete" tag. I don't really see the utility of them being on the front page (other than reminding you every day what the community want the most, but I think you already know that :p).
Horrible change. People are expect forums to show threads by the newest reply. This stinks of Facebook like feed filtering, where Facebook tried to tell you what you should be reading/seeing.
1454385819
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
I agree that, particularly for the API and Character Sheet forums, it's a good thing to have single threads pushing questions and answers on a topic into one place. This seems less than ideal for the LFG forum, as well, when it comes to campaign idea or game systems that are less popular, and will take more than a week to fill up. While I suspect it would be less of an issue in Bug Reports or Specific Use Questions, as most  topics in those forums are resolved in less than a week, the few outlying cases where that's not the case would be problematic. The OP might be the only person actually following the thread, and then after a week goes by suddenly everyone stops helping? That's hardly a good user experience. I very rarely look at the full forum listing, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that I'm not alone in that behavior. In fact, the only forum I might be convinced that this would be a good idea is the Suggestions forum, to try and get new threads visibility, instead of the handful that are always going to be visible there due to the current votes sorting..
Maybe it's just me, but I like to read all new messages in most of the forums. Normally I can tell from the main Forum page if there are any new messages to read in a particular forum. Now I will have to open each forum so I don't miss anything. :-( Please change it back.
1454389272
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Another problem with this change: low-activity forums can end up losing threads from the front page. Case in point, the iPad/Android App forum currently has 1 sticky (which never leaves the front page) and 1 non-sticky thread, giving the appearance that the forum is practically empty.
1454412807
Stephen S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Brian said: In fact, the only forum I might be convinced that this would be a good idea is the Suggestions forum, to try and get new threads visibility, instead of the handful that are always going to be visible there due to the current votes sorting.. Implementation highly voted for suggestions would also improve that.
1454412894
Stephen S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Brian said: I agree that, particularly for the API and Character Sheet forums, it's a good thing to have single threads pushing questions and answers on a topic into one place.  Those threads need to be conversational and contiguous.
Jake M. said: Does this affect the LFG forum?  It probably shouldn't, as a lot of times gathering a group takes longer than a week... I mean, the LFG Forum isn't really going to be affected by this. This only affects what shows up on the front page of the forum. What shows up on the front page LFG-wise is almost just random luck since it is so active. Again, this is only affecting what shows up on the front page of the forums. This does not affect how long a post is open, visible on the category index, visible in All Discussions, etc. Rabulias said: Maybe it's just me, but I like to read all new messages in most of the forums. Normally I can tell from the main Forum page if there are any new messages to read in a particular forum. Now I will have to open each forum so I don't miss anything. :-( A lot of the feedback in this thread is from folks who are regular forum users who want to read it all. Which is totally fine. But if that's the case, you probably want to check out the  All Discussions page , not the front page of the forums. As someone else who reads most of what is posted on the forums, I can tell you that relying on the front page only has never been an effective way to keep up on "everything." If there are things that we can do to better support using that page for this use case, by all means let me know. But optimizing the front page of the forums for people who want to keep up on everything happening forum-wide has never been the primary purpose or driving intent.
Could we get an easy way to switch to a new forum while within a forum? I do like to keep that "New" button off all the threads and don't want to have to keep going back and forth to do it. I do find it odd that you are interesting in catering to the people who don't use the forums and ignoring the ones who use them the most by hiding posts with a history useful of information. 
1454426879
The Aaron
Roll20 Production Team
API Scripter
Ed:  You can click the forum name to get a drop down of other forums when on a forum's page:
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Edited 1454431533
I never noticed the little blue arrow! Plus I missed this response because it wasn't on the front page, just saying.
Riley D. said: A lot of the feedback in this thread is from folks who are regular forum users who want to read it all. Which is totally fine. But if that's the case, you probably want to check out the  All Discussions page , not the front page of the forums. As someone else who reads most of what is posted on the forums, I can tell you that relying on the front page only has never been an effective way to keep up on "everything." If there are things that we can do to better support using that page for this use case, by all means let me know. But optimizing the front page of the forums for people who want to keep up on everything happening forum-wide has never been the primary purpose or driving intent. Thanks for the reply, Riley. I am aware of the All Discussions page, but I don't want to weed through all the Looking for Group threads (which seem to dominate). I have adapted to checking the full forums. Thanks for the tip about the dropdown, The Aaron!
1454463174
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Riley D. said: Rabulias said: Maybe it's just me, but I like to read all new messages in most of the forums. Normally I can tell from the main Forum page if there are any new messages to read in a particular forum. Now I will have to open each forum so I don't miss anything. :-( A lot of the feedback in this thread is from folks who are regular forum users who want to read it all. Which is totally fine. But if that's the case, you probably want to check out the  All Discussions page , not the front page of the forums. As someone else who reads most of what is posted on the forums, I can tell you that relying on the front page only has never been an effective way to keep up on "everything." If there are things that we can do to better support using that page for this use case, by all means let me know. But optimizing the front page of the forums for people who want to keep up on everything happening forum-wide has never been the primary purpose or driving intent. Up until this point, if one is sufficiently active, relying on the front page has  been an effective way to keep up on everything in the forums that I care to read . The All Discussions page is not an acceptable substitute, as it has zero organization beyond post date. The justification for this change seems to be that you want the front page to be about new stuff going on in the community. But the previous sorting method does  allow new threads to be featured on the front page, as they are by their very nature going to have the newest post in the forum. Additionally, the previous sorting method ensures that popular topics, which are by their nature important to the community,  are easy to find. This change seems to be targeted at new users over those of us that have been around a while, which presents another problem: this new sorting can cause slower forums to appear empty, something that a regular knows isn't the case, but a new user does not. If a new user shows up and sees two threads in the iPad/Android App forum, a dearth of content compared to all of the other forums, they will not  assume there are a ton of hidden threads. They're going to assume there aren't many threads there at all, because this kind of forum sorting is not commonplace on other internet forums that new user has frequented in the past. I feel that I should also point out that while it is not suffering the same problem in such an extreme fashion as the iPad/Android App forum, the Pro subscriber forum also gives the appearance of having a dearth of threads, which sends up even bigger warning bells. And no, it is not reasonable to assume that Pro users are regulars. I know I subscribed as a Pro within a week or so of registering this account, and I've witnessed new users asking for help, getting told that doing what they want requires a subscription, and then having a subscription badge appear by their name in the thread afterwards. I also know there are Pro users that don't regularly use the main forums. If you are dead set on this new sorting method, could we at least  get an option in our account settings to switch back to the old method?
1454471535
Diana P
Pro
Sheet Author
Brian said: Up until this point, if one is sufficiently active, relying on the front page has  been an effective way to keep up on everything in the forums that I care to read . The All Discussions page is not an acceptable substitute, as it has zero organization beyond post date. The justification for this change seems to be that you want the front page to be about new stuff going on in the community. But the previous sorting method does  allow new threads to be featured on the front page, as they are by their very nature going to have the newest post in the forum. Additionally, the previous sorting method ensures that popular topics, which are by their nature important to the community,  are easy to find. This change seems to be targeted at new users over those of us that have been around a while, which presents another problem: this new sorting can cause slower forums to appear empty, something that a regular knows isn't the case, but a new user does not. If a new user shows up and sees two threads in the iPad/Android App forum, a dearth of content compared to all of the other forums, they will not  assume there are a ton of hidden threads. They're going to assume there aren't many threads there at all, because this kind of forum sorting is not commonplace on other internet forums that new user has frequented in the past. I feel that I should also point out that while it is not suffering the same problem in such an extreme fashion as the iPad/Android App forum, the Pro subscriber forum also gives the appearance of having a dearth of threads, which sends up even bigger warning bells. And no, it is not reasonable to assume that Pro users are regulars. I know I subscribed as a Pro within a week or so of registering this account, and I've witnessed new users asking for help, getting told that doing what they want requires a subscription, and then having a subscription badge appear by their name in the thread afterwards. I also know there are Pro users that don't regularly use the main forums. If you are dead set on this new sorting method, could we at least  get an option in our account settings to switch back to the old method? I agree with what Brian said; I had been trying to figure out how to word almost exactly the same statements.  The other consideration for not demoting week-old threads with new activity:  I have frequently seen where someone asks for help, help is offered, they implement said solution during their next weekly game, and then return afterwards looking for more help, using the same thread since they are still asking about the same macro.  Not only would it be confusing to find that the thread does not bubble back to the top, it makes it less likely folk will see the thread to answer again.  Tagging each thread I comment on with a 'follow this thread' would make it impossible to find the ones I've tagged because I want to keep track of the information inside so I can use it later.
I agree also with Brian. I spend entirely too much time on the forum (checking it very often for new post to topics I am interested in), but it was easy for me to haunt because generally speaking I could review the front page, read what was new and interesting, mark all as read and then rinse and repeat often throughout the day. Now I need to check each sub-forum hoping not to miss a new post on an "old" but important topic. I don't understand the purpose behind this change and it does make the experience worse for those that have been here supporting you for a long time.
1454507821
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Ironically, there is something wrong with the sorting for this thread . It's not in correct order in relation to other threads in this forum: This seems to be the only thread (in this forum, at least) suffering from this issue.
1454508627

Edited 1454508637
Kryx
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Brian said: This seems to be the only thread (in this forum, at least) suffering from this issue. Admins have the ability to sink posts (hide them from the main page). You can also do this on your own game's forum. It seems this post was sunk.
1454512137
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Kryx said: Brian said: This seems to be the only thread (in this forum, at least) suffering from this issue. Admins have the ability to sink posts (hide them from the main page). You can also do this on your own game's forum. It seems this post was sunk. Even if sunk, it should still be ordered correctly on the forum page. It's not. Also, this thread really  shouldn't be sunk in the first place.
It should be stickied, so that people understand why responses to their threads aren't popping up.
Yes, this change needs to be stickied.
1455004899
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
I feel like this thread is now a case study in why this change was not a good move. Since it's now a week old and not stickied, it cannot appear on the front page, and without this knowledge the new sorting scheme is unexpected for anyone who had used other forums.
I just wanted to chime in on this. As a regular forum lurker I am much better off with the old way where every single new reply bumped the threads on the main page. I am very displeased with this change, especially since this went completely under my radar and I legitimately thought that my browser/internet was bugged in some way. A change like this deserves at least some form of prior survey from the actual community that is using it. Furthermore, I do not understand what you were thinking when you implemented this on the LFG too. There is a huge difference in advertising when new posts bump the thread on the main page and when someone needs to actually go through the entire sub-forum to see something. It's like having a large advertising poster outside a shop about a special product versus the same ad being inside the shop. People are already suffering enough to find groups to the point where threads go for over a week of recruiting. For the LFG sub-forum this change is the epitome of uselessness. My call of cthulhu recruitments legitimately went for more than a week, I would be bummed if someone got "lucky" and found people for the same system just because he posted at the "ideal" time while I am struggling for over a week. Next up, this change is not intuitive and as such people who do not know how this works will miss important news. This change is subtle to the point where someone needs to read a thread about it to understand what is happening, if you want to keep this going please put a pop-up or a warning message or anything to tell people how your new forum changes are working. A sticky is not enough, and especially a sticky titles "forum sorting changes" is not something that a new user will actively read. I will second what Brian has posted above, please give us an option to change it back or revert the changes altogether. If not please remove this for LFG only, you do not understand what you are doing to your playerbase.
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Edited 1455130527
The LFG forums are really best for using to fill games that have immediate openings and are happening very soon. If you have a need to fill a game long-term, your best bet is definitely to use the  LFG Tool .
1455140005
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Avacyn said: The LFG forums are really best for using to fill games that have immediate openings and are happening very soon. If you have a need to fill a game long-term, your best bet is definitely to use the  LFG Tool . Why? Most threads I've read in the LFG forum are meant to start once the campaign has enough players. For a popular system that might fill up in under a day, but for more esoteric systems or less popular campaign settings, it could potentially take quite a bit longer, even if the GM would be ready to run the game immediately. This change makes it even harder to get a group together for the games that were already hardest to gather a group for! Surely this change was not made on a whim. As there are apparently plenty of us who are displeased with this change, could you at least share with us the research on why this could possibly be positive?
Avacyn said: The LFG forums are really best for using to fill games that have immediate openings and are happening very soon. If you have a need to fill a game long-term, your best bet is definitely to use the  LFG Tool . I do understand this myself. With this change you are obligated to put a warning on the LFG forum to inform people of what you just said to me, otherwise there would be no point in having a LFG forum at all. People would want to use both the forum and the tool to maximize the visibility of their game. I don't know how you think about this but a game being visible in multiple ways is very important. Unless this is fixed, I am legitimately going to post a new thread every week about my upcoming game until I find people. Again, I can't agree more with Brian when he says that this thread in itself if showing why this was a bad idea. Look at how sunk it is for what changes it made.
1455170857
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Brother Sharp said: Again, I can't agree more with Brian when he says that this thread in itself if showing why this was a bad idea. Look at how sunk it is for what changes it made. I consider this to be a serious  POLA issue. The Principle of Least Astonishment tells us people are part of the system. People expect things to work a certain way when they are used to other, similar things. A user coming to the Roll20 forums is extremely likely  to be familiar with other forums on the internet. Other forums do not sort threads in this manner. The hypothetical user is thus astonished, and POLA has been violated. But not only does this change cause a hypothetical problem for a hypothetical new user, this change causes actual  problems for actual  users that are already here. The people who already like Roll20. The people who aren't "still deciding" on a VTT solution to use. In some cases, the people who are paying subscribers. Drawing in new users is great! You have to do it, or your SaaS dies. But retaining existing users is also important. I do not think this change does anything significant to draw in new users, and certainly does nothing to retain users. I doubt it's a bad enough change to drive new users away (although the appearance of a lack of content in the slower forums would be a tick on that side of the ledger), and an existing user will probably  stay on in spite of the change, but that is because the service you are selling is the VTT, not your forum.
I am sad that this thread is being forgotten. I would really love some words on what is going to be the future of this sorting change. I for one have stopped using the old bookmark where I saw all the main forums with the latest threads and instead manually check every forum manually, you have successfully invalidated the purpose of the general view. Look at all the valuable feedback this thread has, and look at how it is on the verge of being forgotten.