Forced zoom percentage and (inadvertently) Dynamic Lighting ideas

It would be nice, just like with shift clicking to center the party, you could choose the party's zoom percentage as well. With each page very obviously requiring a different zoom level, my party is having to have me center them, find out they're on the wrong zoom level, change it, then center them again. It would be nice if I could just choose their zoom level for them. I, as the GM, would like to know they're looking at it the same way I am. Just a thought.

Good idea. +1

I agree very much with this, I wanted to make a post with the same suggestion as well.

I think this is important, so I want so support it too because the current Shift+Ping capability for leading players to areas the GM wants isn't enough: zoom levels also need to be addressed.

Yeah. It'd also be nice to be able to select when and where to lock the player's view. For example, if I've set up dynamic lighting, and have various torches or light elements scattered around, obviously the light is viewable by all, so that's what I select. So, all they have to do when I switch them to that page is look around at all the light sources and see what's going on. I'd like to be able to lock their view either where I select, or better yet, centered on their token at the zoom level I select. Thus, their screen would automatically change centering when the piece(s) move. It'll keep players from cheating by looking ahead, which will fix one of the few flaws I've found with the dynamic lighting option. If a player can only see 20 feet because of a held torch, they can't see beyond that. Sure, they'd be able to see a torch in the distance, but not what was near and around the torch. With the dynamic lighting system, if I set up a torch or fire, etc. the players can just look around at light sources and figure out the lay of the dungeon and see if there's any monsters I placed within the light radius. Not cool. Additionally, it would be nice to get the dynamic lighting altered slightly so that players can only see light sources that are within line of sight of their token. If the next room over has light in it, but there's a wall or a door in the way, the player wouldn't know there was light, thus what's in the room. However, since we're doing bird's eye view, they would be able to see because of how the current settings are designed for dynamic lighting. I know a semi-simple fix is to just not have light sources become visible until the players scan actually see them. That's all well and good, but I'd prefer to keep the selecting and reselecting of tokens to a minimum. It would be great to see an option for selecting which tokens are able to VIEW said source of light. This would solve the line of sight issue, but I'd still be forced to constantly be selecting things to alter their settings.

Question: does dynamic lighting replace or does it augment fog of war? If it augments fog of war wouldnt just fogging the areas lit by torches fix the problem? - Gauss

How fog of war is currently designed, it's more of a hassle to fog the areas lit by torches, because if you're in any sort of room other than a square one, removing the fog when it's time is a pain. I kinda feel that how the current dynamic lighting is set up, it kinda replaces fog of war. About the only thing I use fog of war for now is to keep people from being able to see outside the dynamic lighting lines I've drawn. As roll20 is in essence the creation of a way to help automate and improve many of the things we can't reasonably portray on a RL table, my ideas for improvements to the dynamic lighting and forced zoom level, as well as locked party screens, are ideas to improve upon either the already programmed items or as future additions.

bump. Not so much for the dynamic lighting ideas (though they're cool too, haha). I'm more interested in being able to set my player's zoom level and locking their view to wherever their respective tokens are.

Wouldn't setting a player's zoom level be tremendously annoying for them when the player and GM are playing with monitors that are radically different sizes? If a player is playing on a small screened laptop or something and a GM sets their zoom and locks their view, they might not be able to see things that other players can. If view wasn't locked, it may mean that they have to do a lot of scrolling to see the same things that could be seen with a larger screen.

Canso, That doesn't seem to be a problem under Fantasy Grounds, which, if you have an image or map in the virtual table, allows the GM to set the zoom level of his players. I think that asking people before the actual game session what are their display sizes and resolution is helpful here: with that info, the GM can evaluate the average right zoom levels for all the group of participants. Even in midst of a game, a player can say "This zoom is too large for me" (or vice versa), and the GM can adjust it in the fly. No harm done!

For those of use that don't have the Dynamic Lighting just yet. Why don't you just put your tokens that you don't want them to see on a GM layer and when they enter the said spot then move them back to the token layer when the see what they are suppose to see. I don't have Dynamic Lighting and so I am stuck just opening up the FOW as they enter the locations but If I chose not to let them see the rest of my map then I don't. Granted I am looking forward to the time when maybe the non mentors get to get access to DL. It will be cool But I know there will still be times that I will just have to do something manually to keep the meta gamers out there from looking ahead.

Cansos' point is valid. The GM cannot set the zoom to match the needs of every player. It should be player choice what the zoom level is. With that said, a feature where zoom is temporarily changed (for 5 seconds or so) while the GM holds shift+Ping would be fine. After that it should revert to the player's zoom levels. Perhaps this is more of a flaw in how zoom works. Changing zoom should keep the center at the same place. Any failure to do so is a problem. - Gauss

Theoretically, the display ratio and size of monitor shouldn't actually affect anything. If a person with a person with a 17 inch monitor and a person with a 27 inch monitor both have it centered on the same location at 40%, they should both be looking at the same amount of stuff. The difference is that the 17 inch monitor would have things be a bit smaller to accommodate, but the same amount of information should still be being portrayed. Additionally, I agree with Axel - the player can quite easily say the zoom level isn't quite right for them, and the GM can tweak it on the fly. The interesting thing about my group is that I'm the GM and I'm located in Oregon. The rest of my group all play in the same room on 4 laptops (one of which is ported to the TV for everyone without laptops). I know my group is likely different than most, but I don't see an issue arising from zoom level. Whatever I choose for my monitors should more than suffice for their TV.

The GM would get very tired of tweaking my zoom levels as often as I tweak them. Fact is, what is being asked for would either annoy GMs because the players would be asking for tweaks often or it would cut certain players out of using Roll20. For example: I have significant light sensitivity. My monitor is turned down to the lowest possible light settings and I still have to wear very dark sunglasses while looking at it. In order to see fine detail I often crank the Zoom up. But I then have to dezoom while moving the map around. So how would that affect the proposal you are making? The GM would be forced to switch from 150% to 50% each and every time I want to move the map around or each time I want to see details. It would drive the GM nuts. Like I said earlier, I would be forced to stop using Roll20 if this suggestion were to be implemented. With that said, if they FIXED the zoom function then the problem that brought this up would no longer be a problem. Zoom should center on the center of the current screen, not on one corner of it. That way when a GM shift+pings the map the player can zoom in and out without the shift+ping location changing. Also, I wouldnt mind if the zoom temporarily changed when the GM shift+pings and then returned to player set normal. - Gauss P.S. I apologize if I come off a bit forceful here but if this were to be implemented as currently proposed I would be forced to stop using Roll20.

I'm not saying it needs to be a feature that is put in as the only option. My thought was that it would be an option chosen by the GM, similar to dynamic lighting or fog of war. If the party wants to use it, the press the checkmark. If not, they don't. That way you please both parties. I definitely agree with you that it'd be a bad idea to force that on people. I wouldn't want it forced on me. I would say, if the entire group agrees on the decision, then it's used for that particular group. If not, no biggie, it stays turned off. I'd merely like to have the option turn it on if that's what kind of game I'm running and my players are ok with it.

Yeah... no. The GM doesn't need control of my zoom settings. Period.

I disagree. Shift clicking to move people makes sense, people can get lost in the fog of war and such depending on how you set up your pages. A player should be able to rely on his zoom setting to stay as is. Someone playing on a laptop vs a netbook vs a tablet vs a huge honking desktop monitor will all be comfortable with different zoom sizes, forcing them to the zoom the DM is using is bad. Maybe if they get a request: "The GM wants to shift your zoom: allow?" could work, but I think there is no way to implement it gracefully.

Changing the view is much different than changing the zoom level, @sidthesquish.

Being able to change the focus and zoom of the player is not different than directing their attention on something. Changing the zoom level is exactly the same thing as changing the view. Both tools mean that the GM is taking temporarily control of what the players are seeing, because he needs it for his story. So, as a GM, I could need to control the players zoom setting. Also period. I think that it would be quite useful, and, anyway, no GM would have to use it against his will.

There is absolutely no need to control zoom setting with the other options that are available.

Perhaps more useful would be some sort of tool where the GM could rectangle select a region of the map to show and this region would be zoomed-to-fit and centered in the players views?

About GM Zoom Control , (. . .) I think there is no way to implement it gracefully. Maybe in theory is hard to see it, but the fact is it works well in other virtual tabletops, being a powerful narrative and communicative element not only for maps --which are just a handout between others-- but for images as well. Even if this can be handled by knowing what are the screen sizes and resolutions of the players by speaking with them, it could be possible to implement some code for automatically adjusting/scaling the "forced zoom" --using the words of Clinton D. for this suggestion-- proportionally to the actual screen resolution of the players. As GM, I need to know if my players are paying attention to the part of the image that I'm showing to them in a given moment of the game, and that requires me having at least a temporary zoom control for my players. I need to know if me and my group are all in the same page. Clinton D. said, I, as the GM, would like to know they're looking at it the same way I am. Ditto. In occassions it's pointless to take the work of painting (or even using) images or drawing illustrations --game handouts placed in the Roll20 canvas-- with narrative and practical importance for the adventure without the effective ability to control how the viewers (players) are going to receive and see them: this requires not only Shift+Ping --which is really cool albeit insufficient by itself alone-- but also GM Zoom Control . For instance, as the GM I can place one of such images or maps and arrange it in my own display at 150% zoom level (or greater, by means of ALT+mousewheeling) for achieving a particular focus, and I'll be using Shift+Ping here and there with the purpose of focusing players view as well in particular details according to the narration or depending on their conversation and questions, if meanwhile some of them are actually viewing the image at "wrong/non-concordant zoom levels" of 80% or 100% at full screen mode, with the whole image/area displayed at once. In these cases Shift+Ping does nothing at all for them, I mean, it doesn't displace any focus, so they aren't really getting what I'm sending to them, spoiling GM-players communication at this level. (And in advance, merely using Fog of War independently of Zoom level, is very far of being a solution here: we are talking of a quick, dynamic way of focusing the attention of our players on the fly, and quickly --in a way, "automatically"-- being able to drop that "forced zoom" without additional and tedious GM preparations when it's not needed anymore.) Besides, if I set the zoom for the image or map by means of ALT+mousewheeling, there is no way of knowing what is the current zoom percentage, since this is currently disconnected of the zoom level that you can pick in the Roll20 Toolbar. This alone, which is a secondary and related issue, makes impossible to just tell to my players: "Please, set your Zoom level at this percentage that I'm using at the moment." Even in face to face games, I already have "this feature" in a natural way (using a computer only can enhance it, though): I can point with a pen to a particular section of an image or map and check if my players are paying attention to what I'm doing. In online virtual tabletops without a GM Zoom Control capability there is no way of doing this, but a request like this, along with the current Shift+Ping, would address it. This feature request is not for annoying your people: think in a video recorded with Camtasia Studio, and how the zoom often changes to focus the attention of the viewers here or there, according to the purposes of the video, for achieving a better communication --but it goes without saying that I'm not asking for any "automatic zoom"! This is my way of explaining how active control of the images displayed for others is necessary for many GMs --or game mastering styles--, even if not all them are going to use it, and definitely, nor all the time. The GM would get very tired of tweaking my zoom levels as often as I tweak them. Fact is, what is being asked for would either annoy GMs because the players would be asking for tweaks often or it would cut certain players out of using Roll20. For example: I have significant light sensitivity. My monitor is turned down to the lowest possible light settings and I still have to wear very dark sunglasses while looking at it. In order to see fine detail I often crank the Zoom up. But I then have to dezoom while moving the map around. Gauss, If that is your situation --I'm sure that is annoying, man--, then the thing boils down to the GM knowing his players --it's a point that already has been made. A sensible GM adjusts the use of the game system and related tools for the enjoyment of all people involved. A group that disregards the legitimate concerns or problems of its members, even if it's one of them, isn't deserving your virtual presence. It would be similar to not adjusting the game session to your particular timezone! if they FIXED the zoom function then the problem that brought this up would no longer be a problem. Zoom should center on the center of the current screen, not on one corner of it. That way when a GM shift+pings the map the player can zoom in and out without the shift+ping location changing. I agree very much with this: zoom would work much better from the center of the current view. On the other hand, I don't think that the current way of zooming from a corner really "brought this up". Even if Roll20 would handle zoom from the center, the reasons for making this "GM zoom control" feature request remain the same. P.S. I apologize if I come off a bit forceful here but if this were to be implemented as currently proposed I would be forced to stop using Roll20. You haven't been rude in any way and you have explained your reasons. That is fine!

There is absolutely no need to control zoom setting with the other options that are available. I certainly don't agree. Being able to control both gives more options for the GM (the only option available now being centering the players view) . So, why not? There is nothing lost in giving one more choice to the GM.

The problem I have with this idea is that some of you have stated the GM should control Zoom. Not 'shift+ping+zoom' then the player resumes control of his own location and zoom. As I stated earlier, a GM controlling Zoom temporarily is fine. Taking absolute control of my zoom or anyone else's is NOT fine. As for the shift+ping and zoom relation, one of the problems brought up was certainly that a GM shift+pinged and then the player had to change his zoom, then the GM had to shift+ping again to move the player at the new zoom level. Fixing zoom to work on the center of your screen fixes that problem and removes one reason for this being needed. - Gauss

Sorry, maybe I was not clear. For me, the idea is that the GM can force the zoom as he can force the focus. Then the player does what he wants, with the focus and with the zoom. As I said they are two similar tools to me (or better, two parts of the same tool), to be used when the GM thinks he has a reason to do it (show the whole area, or show a detail somewhere,...), certainly not fixing the zoom level for the whole session. Because the GM having the possibility to focus without zoom is only half-useful: "Here on this table, by the bed, there is a dagger with blood on it"... while the player looks at a whole dungeon or "The Barony of Whatever is wedged between the Theocracy of Delusion and the Realm of Papercrown"... whilst the player is zoomed on a town part of another country. Edit: so, I think that the best implementation would be that when the GM centers the map, it is centered at the same zoom level as the GM.

Patrick, being temporary only is an idea I can get behind. :) - Gauss

Again, I will state that the GM should not and should never have control over my zoom level. That is a personal setting based on size of monitor, resolution of my desktop, and my own physical limitations or lack thereof. Hands off. You want to limit viewing distance? Put the effort in and use fog of war/dynamic lighting (once available on free server).

Period? =o)

Jonathan the Black said, Again, I will state that the GM should not and should never have control over my zoom level. Why not. Zoom is only pertinent for images and maps, and these things are just game handouts that the GM is placing there for the players, not the Roll20 app itself nor their own computers. GM Zoom Control goes along the same path than handling permissions for tokens, characters, Roll20 "handouts", and the control of the Jukebox by the GM. Jonathan the Black said, Hands off. You want to limit viewing distance? Put the effort in and use fog of war/dynamic lighting (once available on free server). You are ignoring that I already answered to this in advance (my earlier post). Also, one of the big points of Roll20 is the ease of use and the quick, immediate way of doing things, so saying "put the effort" and trying to claim that "the way to go" is that we should "circumvent" this necessity --a pretty basic feature, actually, already in use in other virtual tabletops-- by means not intended for addressing it, goes against the design philosophy of the app, without ignoring the fact that such "effort" provides clumsy and substandard results for saying the least: It's easy to understand that isn't the same thing to be able to set the zoom level for players in a dynamic way than using Fog of War: actually both things have nothing to do the one with the other, and you can't have two fogs of war enabled in a Roll20 tab, one for the map and its explored areas, another for placing a black veil over images trying to "highlight" parts of them for the players focusing their attention. With the due respect, saying that the way to go "must be" Fog of War and Dynamic Lighting sounds to me just like a messy approach and a way of not actually paying attention to the suggestion that has been made here.

Patrick C. said, For me, the idea is that the GM can force the zoom as he can force the focus. Then the player does what he wants, with the focus and with the zoom. Same here. I can see that actually "locking" zoom/pan for images or maps can be useful for some situations, but I'd only want that in an optional way because it can feel too restrictive for players. So, the main aspect of Clinton D. suggestion that I'm supporting is the GM capability of being able to "force the zoom as he can force the focus". Just that. Patrick, being temporary only is an idea I can get behind. :) That is great. — ( Edited for better clarity.)

Sorry, but I'm adamant on this. The GM has no business controlling what zoom level I use in the course of a game. They don't know my monitor size. They don't know what resolution I'm using. They don't know whether or not if I have eyesight problems that means I have to use a specific zoom. I don't want nor do I need GM's inconveniencing me by forcing my zoom level and thus forcing me to change my zoom level and fix it back to how I like it. If you want to limit what the players can see, drop a light on the token and use dynamic lighting (once it is available to everyone and not just mentors).

Jonathan the Black said, They don't know my monitor size. They don't know what resolution I'm using. They don't know whether or not if I have eyesight problems that means I have to use a specific zoom. Then just tell the GM what is your monitor size and the resolution that you're using. I've seen that sharing that information with the GM works if the zoom level set by him/her isn't automatically scaled in proportion to the display size of the players. (This also was commented in earlier replies.) Jonathan the Black said, If you want to limit what the players can see, drop a light on the token and use dynamic lighting (once it is available to everyone and not just mentors). The problem is that what you are proposing here has nothing to do with the suggestion that is being discussed in this thread. Rather, it seems to me that you just would want this thread/suggestion to disappear in the nothingness :)

Axel, on the one hand you are saying it should be optional and on the other hand you are saying that a player who is forced to deal with this should inform the GM what they would like the Zoom set to. Which is it? The two are mutually exclusive. Here are the options as I see them: 1) The GM uses shift+ping+temporary zoom and after a specific time period the players zoom level resets to his default zoom levels. 2) The GM uses shift+ping+zoom and the player is forced to manually change his zoom back. 3) The GM has control over player zoom levels at all times but the player can opt out. 4) The GM has control over player zoom levels at all times and the player cannot opt out. 5) Fix zoom so that it centers on the center of the screen (where the ping is anyhow) and that fixes the whole shift+ping+'can they see everything properly' issue. This is the issue the OP posted. Of these options I find: 1) is ok if a bit jarring. 2) is annoying but I can deal with it. 3) is fine since I can opt out. 4) Completely, utterly, absolutely intolerable. I would be forced to stop using Roll20 if this were to occur. 5) To be the best option of the bunch but not mutually exclusive to 1-4. This is my preferred option. Now, it seems like some people were not clear as to which technique they would like. I think that Patrick has indicated option 2. Axel, which option are you advocating? - Gauss

Axel, on the one hand you are saying it should be optional and on the other hand you are saying that a player who is forced to deal with this should inform the GM what they would like the Zoom set to. Which is it? The two are mutually exclusive. My point is exactly the one of Patrick C., and you agreed with him so I can't find the reason for saying that there is a contradiction. EDIT: What I said --or I meant-- is that the suggestion of the GM being able to "lock" the zoom level and view in images should be, if any, optional. "Lock" isn't to my mind the best aspect of this suggestion, but the capability for the GM to set zoom levels on the fly for the players, in a similar way we currently use Shift+Ping. I wasn't saying that players like Jonathan, or yourself, should deal with GMs "forcing and locking zoom and view" simply informing them of your available Zoom ranges. (I'm not sure of the origin of this confusion.)

Gauss, Answering to your question more explicitly: What I'm saying is that the suggestion of the GM having some kind of zoom control for Roll20 pages and canvases in his game session for all the players involved should be seriously considered, not dismissed. How should it be exactly implemented? Right now, I leave a big part of that to the developers. That means that I'm unsure about your points 1, 2 and 3. Perhaps if there is any hint of this being heard, I can say more about what I think regarding the implementation. Certainly I'm not in favor of dismissing the concerns of people with eyesight problems. (Definitely, I'm not defending point 4. At most, only if it would be optional and players are OK with that, knowing beforehand that the GM can use it in midst of the game.) Like you, I also said that Zoom should be fixed. But still I don't see how that problem has been "the reason" for bringing this GM Zoom Control suggestion in the first place --and I said that I had the same suggestion to do (more or less, without the "locking" aspect). Yes, Clinton D. mentioned this particular issue with the Zoom tool in what he said, but that wasn't the whole thing in the very least, nor the suggestion in itself. Regards

My computer. My view. My control. GM doesn't need control of any of it. If you want to hid your dungeon, use some Fog of War or put dynamic lit torches on the GM layer and move them onto the map layer when players get close.

Your this and your that :) . . . I guess then that you also can play online you alone, without a GM handling the flow of the story according to the actions of the players. BTW, this isn't for dungeons and maps alone. FoW and Dynamic Lighting has nothing to do with GM Zoom Control . That should be pretty evident too when it's about images and there are no tokens at all for enabling Dynamic Lighting: "The Barony of Whatever is wedged between the Theocracy of Delusion and the Realm of Papercrown"... whilst the player is zoomed on a town part of another country (Patrick C. example).

My computer. My view. My control. GM doesn't need control of any of it. And *your* Roll20 as well? Sorry, but no.

Whatever. I will ban anyone from any game I run if I'm part of their game and this forced/locked zoom option bullcrap is added and used by them.

Well, that makes absolutely no sense. If you ban someone of your game, then you are the GM. The suggestion of controlling zoom is only for the GM . . . not for the players. edit: oh I see what you mean. Good luck with your blacklist.

Whatever. I will ban anyone from any game I run if I'm part of their game and this forced/locked zoom option bullcrap is added and used by them. Eeerrrhhh! If you are the GM, the only one that could use the forcing zoom is yourself (which should gives you the capacity to ban yourself if you use it by accident). And if you are a player, you play in someone else game and should accept his rules or don't play with him. So, if this feature is implemented, you shouldn't have a problem with it. And if you want to blacklist other players for that, add me to it beforehand. I am of the "my game, my rules" style. You seem to be of the "everybody's game, my rules" one.

I simply don't think that a GM should be allowed to force a zoom level on users of Roll20. Ever. Utilize the tools you have to limit view. They're already there and they work quite well.

You have said it several times without giving any reason why all other users should submit to your choice. Repeating it once more does not make your point more valid.

Exactly.

I think we should relax a bit and try to understand Jonathan's point of view. Ask yourself how you would feel if the GM controlled what kind of notes you wrote down on your character sheet. How about if the GM told you that you have to write in pink and not black. Etc etc. His point is about self-determination in an area where a GM really does not NEED to control things (assuming zoom was properly fixed so that it is center zoom). With that said, I DO see the value of temporarily (ie, less than a minute) changing the zoom level of all the players to more easily point out a feature. I just do not see it is absolutely necessary. Additionally, it will still rub some people wrong and it should include an opt out feature for those people. This conversation initially started as a way to fix the shift+ping, player has to rezoom, GM has to shift+ping again issue. But from my pov it rapidly became a discussion on how the GM should have the ability to control the player's zoom levels, without ever mentioning it being limited use. This rubbed me wrong and I am guessing it is part of the reason Jonathan has dug in his heels. Note: I am aware that it was not anyone's intent that it be not a limited use feature. My statement is that intent was not apparent until about 2/3rds of the way through this discussion. - Gauss

I think that the problem is elsewhere. If Jonathan doesn't want to use this kind of zoom control when he is the GM, it is his choice. If he wants that nobody can use it on their own games, up to blacklisting those who would, it is taking is personal choice for more than what it is worth. Whilst Axel has answered Jonathan with some thoughtful arguments, we have still to hear one from him that goes beyond "I don't like it, so don't ask for it and use something else. Period". May I say that, even if we were speaking about permanent zoom control by the GM (which is more than what I am advocating), it would still be a feature: -that no GM would have to use if he didn't wanted (no opt out needed, just don't) -and no player would have to play against his will with a GM who uses it Saying that a GM could have the ability to set the zoom level does not mean that he would have to do it. So, you wouldn't (and it is your choice), whilst I would (and that would be my own decision and nobody else's business). My problem with Jonathan comments is that, because he wouldn't use the feature, he doesn't want it to be included for other peoples who would use it. The point was never about self determination by Jonathan or anybody else. Because there is no way to force you to use a feature you don't want to use.

Patrick, that presumes there IS an opt out feature. I respect the Roll20 staff and would expect them to build such a feature in but it is not automatic that they would think of it or that there must be an opt out feature unless it was asked for. They are busy and cannot think of everything. Without someone to state it (which you had not done in your inital posts) it might very well have been overlooked. From my pov I saw the initial part of this thread as you folks were advocating that for all time my zoom level was controlled by the GM and/or linked to his own zoom level. There was no mention of an opt out feature. In fact, people were talking about the player just telling the GM what zoom level they want. That is intolerable and unworkable for those people that regularly change their zoom levels. - Gauss

Why is an opt out feature needed? You are the GM. If you like the feature, use it. If you don't like the feature, don't use it. And that would be valid, even if we were speaking about permanent control of the zoom.

Patrick, even the GM would need an opt out feature to turn the feature on and off if it were permanently linking his zoom to the players zoom. Like I said earlier, I do not think that the developers would go that route but it is possible. I understand from your pov that this is not a bad thing, but from other people's it may be. I also understand that 'if you do not like what the GM does leave'. That is not a solution, it creates a problem. How hard is it to put together a VTT game that gets going and stays that way? Players often just vanish. Why add to that a means to piss players off? Anything like this SHOULD have an opt out feature. I agree with your ideas about temporarily controlling Zoom, I think our sticking point is if an opt out feature is required or not. IF it is not present, it will create problems with some people in some games. That can be simply avoided by including the option. Your way is not the way for everyone, Roll20 should be neutral on this and the GM forcing this on players is NOT neutral. Giving GMs an option is good, forcing that option on players is bad, let players opt out. - Gauss

I still don't see a need for an opt ou feature. If you set the zoom of the players, it is set. If you don't set it, it is whatever they are presently using. Just like if you set the focus of the players, it is set. If you don't, they are focused wherever they are. The focus feature show how a zoom feature could work. I am sorry, but I cannot agree with your comment about adding a means to piss players off. There are lots of things that can piss some players off. Some are probably pissed off by the focus feature, do you want to take it out? Some want only to play fantasy, are we going to forbid science-fiction to avoid pissing them off? Some peoples only want to play D&D, are we going to forbid Pathfinder, lest they are pissed-off? Some want to play on beautiful full color maps, are we going to take off the drawing tools? Some could be pissed off by the ping feature, was it a mistake to include it? Maybe some peoples won't like dynamic lighting, should the developers stop working on it? It is probably because you don't like the feature that you see it that way. But there is no reason to treat that feature differently than any other. If I am the GM, I decide what I'll play and how. And the players can decide that what I offer them doesn't interest them, for any reason, because they don't like the setting, the rules, the maps, the tokens, the use of video/chat/hangout, the use of this or that feature. Again there are a lot of reason that can turn a player away from a game. If the reason is a forced zoom, why not? But it is not a reason to treat that feature differently than any other. I don't see why forcing the zoom wouldn't be rules agnostic. It is not linked to any kind of rules. It is as much neutral than any other tool (focus, video, chat, lighting,...).

I think you misunderstand what I am trying to say. Removing options or forcing players to play using certain options is what will miff players. Providing options is not a problem. Most of your examples are not forced, they are provided options. This is a forced option. The GM would force it upon players who for whatever reason do not want or like that option forced upon them. UNLESS there is a player opt out option that will become a problem. Again, as I stated earlier...if the GM sets my zoom they will have to set it every few minutes at the very least. Even the GM would need a way to not use it (my statement of GM opt out) and that is NOT an automatic feature. Like all coded features it would have to be designed that way and it could easily be overlooked. My statement about neutrality is not a statement about rules agnostic. It is a statement of how players have features the GM does not control. The GM does not control the player's colors, size of video icon or any number of other similar effects. This is just one of those visual effects that a player should be allowed to control. In any case, we are spinning our wheels here. I have stated what I think. You clearly have no problem with a GM controlling the player's zoom levels either permanently or temporarily. I have a problem with the GM controlling the player's zoom levels in any permanent sense. The developers will take this discussion and do what they want with it. Hopefully whatever they do will include option 5 and also include an opt out option for any zoom control the GM may have. - Gauss