Help me find a good new-to-me PnP system

Hello everyone. I am in dire need of finding a PnP system which would be suited for my strange needs. I am well familiar with only D&D 3,5 and WFRP 2nd edition so feel free to suggest any other system but please do try to make sure your suggestion is valid when considering my need (below). I'm looking for a system which is either a) realistic or b) has a deep and tactical combat system. With "realistic"it's easier to say what I don't mean by it than what I do.Here are some examples: 1) In general RPG systems have HP/Life/etc. which you lose when you take damage. First you can lose 500 hp and there are no actual effects what so ever but when you lose the last 1 hp which drops you below 1/0/-9/etc. you suddenly go unconscious/die/etc. This is not what I mean by realistic.In a realistic system there shouldn't an abstract buffer which you can lose before anything actually happens and the suddenly you just die. 2) In D&D 3,5 you cant' just attempt to do something. You need to have a skill/feat/skill trick/etc. first. Eg you can only use bluff in the specific ways stated in the rules but if you get a certain feat you get some extra option for it. This is not realistic. Sure person A can be better at bluffing than B in certain ways/situations/etc. but you should not be reguired to "unlock" these things. 3) The rules should not create clearly unrealistic situations. D&D 3,5 is filled with these, eg you put a rogue in a 10*10*10 feet box and cause an explosion in it which affects lets say 25*25*25 area the rogue can just say evade and nothing happened. With deep tactical combat I basically mean that the combat should not be based on just "who has the most brute force". In D&D 3,5 it's all about the level, the amount of gold they have used for their equipments and how well the characters are built (which almost always comes down to how well are you abusing OP combos the writers never meant to be eligible). In WFRP the system isn't just about level and gold or even the build but the combat is too static (not enough actual tactical options). Here are 3 suggestions I found from other forums and shortly what was said about them so it would be nice that if you have experience with them you could tell a bit more about them. Deadlands: It's a 1800's style "Weird Wild West" game and It's very deadly. And the gun combat is realistic. You take damage to specific body parts: (Head, Arms, Legs, and Torso), and the wounds can fester and cause you to lose limbs (That's the downside of 1800's medicine.) But the system is well done. Unlike in games like DnD, where a level 1 guard can't hurt a level 10 barbarian. In deadlands, a well placed shot with a shotgun is going to take out any tinhorn. Cyberpunk: With its Friday Night Firefight rules, based on FBI ballistics data, it's deadly lethal, quick, and playable. The Riddle of Steel: The combat system is quick, fun, and playable. It has a resource-allocation system that approximates the realities of fighting. Damage is divided up into three categories, which represent both short and long-term effects of being struck. Wounds are bad. Thanks in advance to anyone willing to help!

The friday nite firefight is a very realistic combat system in most ways as long as you strip out any reference to cybernetics.  What genre are you looking at? If you are looking at going fantasy, you can use one of the older models of D&D or a retroclone and strip out their hp leveling mechanic. The easiest way to do that is base the Hp on the characters Con plus give them one die roll of their classes hp to represent their physical training in their chosen field. That their would be their hp and it would not go up without time consuming training and then have it go up only 1 or 2 points. example: A fighter with a con of 18 could have 19 - 28 hp while a wizard with the same con of 18 would only have 19 - 23 hp. That is an example of extremes which you will encounter if you a point buy for the abilities because the con will become the most important ability of the character. I know BFRPG has an optional rule called ability check and it can be used for skills. This is has the player roll a d20 and add the ability modifier to the roll in the attempt to roll over the DC. If you make it then it works if not then it fails. Simple as that.

If you want fantasy, I would look at Harnmaster.  Pretty realistic.  Just remember that realism can add complexity.

True I forgot about Harnmaster. Isn't that an ICE product? I know all the various ICE products are really lethal aka as realistic as you can get for the genre but they can get really complex. I know rolemaster was nicknamed rollmaster because of how many charts was used for a simple unarmed hand strike that hit with a critical.

Have you heard of Legend from Mongoose Publishing? It's based on the Runequest system. It's pretty realistic and the combat is deadly. I think it's something that you would enjoy.&nbsp; Here's a link to the core rulebook if you would like to read more about it.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/legend/legend-core-rulebook.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/legend/legend-core-rulebook.html</a>

Here's a quick breakdown of some of the systems that I have experience with that might suit your needs: GURPS . &nbsp;If your goal is to have a realistic and tactical combat system, this is the system designed from the ground up to cater to your request. &nbsp;Wound locations? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;Bleeding rules? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;A slide into unconsciousness and/or death? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;Character creation and customization is incredibly detailed, with a long list of skills most of which have reasonable defaults off of base attributes - so you can attempt things untrained within reason. &nbsp;There are sourcebooks that cover settings from the modern day to the Old West to specific historical periods to fantasy to sci fi and back again. &nbsp; These advantages do come with some costs: &nbsp;the more detail you have in combat and injury, the more rules are required to cover everything and thus more system mastery attached to it; unless you're playing a kitchen sink setting, the GM has to use a firm hand reigning in advantages/disadvantages and supervising character creation; &nbsp;regardless of setting, there's a certain amount of grit and lethality inherent in GURPS games. &nbsp;There are ways to mitigate all of these problems and most of the work (as in perceived difficulty of running) comes during character creation. &nbsp;Once you know what you're doing, combat won't take any longer than let's say Savage Worlds would. RuneQuest/Legend/Pendragon/other BRP systems. &nbsp; The latest version is RuneQuest 6 published by the Design Mechanism, which is a revised and improved version of Mongoose's Legend which itself was... &nbsp;Basically there's a long and storied lineage attached to this system that includes other games like Call of Cthullu, Ringworld and even stripped down versions like OpenQuest. &nbsp;RuneQuest and Legend are going to give you plenty of realism in combat and allow people to attempt whatever they want to do. &nbsp;If the fantasy RuneQuest doesn't work out for you, there's going to be a version out there for a genre you do want to run - high Arthurian fantasy (Pendragon), horror (Call of Cthullu), modern day running and gunning (The Company), and the generic BRP gold book. Reign/Other ORE games. &nbsp; A slew of games based around rolling up to ten ten-sided dice. &nbsp;Each roll determines a number of things depending on context. &nbsp;For combat, a roll simultaneously determines if you hit, where you hit and for how much damage it does. &nbsp;Plenty of combat options, especially when you start including the martial paths from Reign that improve what your character can do, but not at the cost of options to the rank and file. &nbsp;Beyond fantasy, there are versions that handle superheroes (Wild Talents), noir detective stories (A Dirty World) and then a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. As to the Riddle of Steel, the time I played in a game I found the system incredibly clunky and inelegant. &nbsp;It was quite a few years ago so I don't remember any details beyond I wouldn't play it again. &nbsp;It may also be out of print which could be a factor in your decision as well.

I would have to suggest the World of Darkness games. Not only is the combat fairly realistic (each character getting 7 health levels with penalties taking place the more injured you get) but it allows people to do attempt things that they aren't "skilled" at or "trained" in. It is possible to even avoid "unrealistic" situations from happening should your players be playing mortals aka normal humans. They have no powers so they are rather fragile.&nbsp; With that said I should also mention that HP doesn't mean that your character can take a dozen arrows to the chest or be stabbed in the torso and keep going. It is free to interpret however you wish to. You can use it as the characters innate knowledge of combat and rolling with punches, so while a lower "character" would be killed by the attack that does 50 damage, your character with 200 HP instinctively moves out of the way of the normally fatal attack and is only injured instead of out right killed. But yeah, World of Darkness games might be up your alley.&nbsp;

Wow! So many good answers in few hours. Thanks a lot people! This is just a short reply done in haste. A proper one is coming tomorrow. In general right now I don't want to exclude any environment/surrounding/genre. So fantasy is fine, scifi is fine. western is fine, horror is fine 1930's film noir is fine... Yeah, both the realism and tactical dimension both tend to make systems rules heavy and if possible the system would so ingeniously written that this wouldn't happen too much. To Heartagun: Like I at least tried to say before HP tends to be this abstract buffer which is never explained what it is and how it works and therefore it's very difficult to actually understand it and use it storywise and in the end there will always come situations where the "great" explanation that the GM has come up earlier just doesn't work / make any sense. This happens pretty easily with magic in D&amp;D3,5: because of my mad skilz I don't die after taking 100 fire damage from an AoE spell even when that amount of damage would burn through flesh?! What about disintegrate? I failed the fort save and took huge amount of damage but I'm just too experiensed to die from disintegration? I know that taking 50 damage from a melee hit doesn't usually mean that I was just sliced with a sword but that's exactly the problem. What exactly did happen? A hit roll doesn't mean a single hit attempt but if you use ranged weapons they do consume 1 arrow/bolt/shot/etc.? Sorry I'm getting distracted here. One of the reasons why I'm looking for a "realistic" system is to get rid of any abstract mechanisms that the writers can't explain themselves and I'm too much of an idiot to really understand on my own.

To cover all that and be a rather simplistic system GURPS would pretty much fill the bill. It was built to be generic and universal plus you can make it as complicated as you want. I ran GURPS since it came out in phamlets called man to man and such.

Metroknight said: The friday nite firefight is a very realistic combat system in most ways as long as you strip out any reference to cybernetics.&nbsp; Ok after little bit of Googling I found out that FNF is "just" a combat system which is used in Cyberpunk. Is it used elsewhere? Which actual game system (Cyberpunk? Which version? something else?) would you recommend that uses FNF?&nbsp; Thanks in advance!

Dave D. said: Here's a quick breakdown of some of the systems that I have experience with that might suit your needs: GURPS . &nbsp;If your goal is to have a realistic and tactical combat system, this is the system designed from the ground up to cater to your request. &nbsp;Wound locations? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;Bleeding rules? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;A slide into unconsciousness and/or death? &nbsp;Check. &nbsp;Character creation and customization is incredibly detailed, with a long list of skills most of which have reasonable defaults off of base attributes - so you can attempt things untrained within reason. &nbsp;There are sourcebooks that cover settings from the modern day to the Old West to specific historical periods to fantasy to sci fi and back again. &nbsp; These advantages do come with some costs: &nbsp;the more detail you have in combat and injury, the more rules are required to cover everything and thus more system mastery attached to it; unless you're playing a kitchen sink setting, the GM has to use a firm hand reigning in advantages/disadvantages and supervising character creation; &nbsp;regardless of setting, there's a certain amount of grit and lethality inherent in GURPS games. &nbsp;There are ways to mitigate all of these problems and most of the work (as in perceived difficulty of running) comes during character creation. &nbsp;Once you know what you're doing, combat won't take any longer than let's say Savage Worlds would. Metroknight said: To cover all that and be a rather simplistic system GURPS would pretty much fill the bill. It was built to be generic and universal plus you can make it as complicated as you want. I ran GURPS since it came out in phamlets called man to man and such. Which version of GURPS would you recommend? Which of the supplement books do you recommend?

Heartagun said: I would have to suggest the World of Darkness games. Not only is the combat fairly realistic (each character getting 7 health levels with penalties taking place the more injured you get) but it allows people to do attempt things that they aren't "skilled" at or "trained" in. It is possible to even avoid "unrealistic" situations from happening should your players be playing mortals aka normal humans. They have no powers so they are rather fragile.&nbsp; Quick googling tells me that there are several different WoD core games: Vampire: The Requiem (released August 21, 2004 alongside The World of Darkness core book) Werewolf: The Forsaken (released March 14, 2005) Mage: The Awakening (released August 29, 2005) Which do you recommend? Are we even talking about the same thing?

Maetco said: Which version of GURPS would you recommend? Which of the supplement books do you recommend? 4th edition is in print and a considerable improvement over 3rd edition, IMO. &nbsp;You can make do with just the two core books (Campaigns and Characters) for pretty much any game you want right out of the box if you're willing to put the work in. From there, it depends on what kind of game you want to run. &nbsp;My last GURPS campaign made use of High Tech, Mysteries, the 3rd edition Cops supplement and snippets of Social Engineering. &nbsp;I would have been just fine with just the core rules, honestly. &nbsp;The overwhelming majority of the supplements is well-researched fluff and not very heavy on mechanics, so you would be able to use most of a 3rd edition book with 4th edition or even another game system if you so chose down the road. What genres do you want to cover right away? &nbsp;That's going to drive any recommendations for supplements. &nbsp;I do find that GURPS pdfs aren't always a good value over tracking down hard copies, but your location and/or exchange rate might change that.

You did find the right games. World of Darkness kinda breaks down everything into different genre's but allows you to play all of them together. They all use the same base rules, each system is more like a race book. So if you wanted to run a game where your players are vampires (of different types) then go vampire, if you want to do a werewolf game do that. But as mentioned they can be all played in a mix and mash. For starters I would stick to one "race" as it were. In WoD there are no classes or levels so players can customize their characters far more than in other games. It is a fair bit to take in at first but once you get it down, the rest fall into place. But they do have a game based solely on mortals trying to make it in a world full of monsters so that would definitely give you a more "realistic" vibe to your game.

While 4th edition GURPS is considerably improved over the third, I find that the 3rd works just fine for low level stuff like a normal person facing zombies or such, it is just easier for me. Now if you are looking at going for special ops, super heroes, or a high magic fantasy style like Forgotten Realms or such then 4th edition would be your best bet.&nbsp; With you looking at maybe using this system with no experience to it, go with Dave D recommendation of 4th edition if you choose GURPS. This will help you be less confused between the editions. That can also apply to any other system you decide on. Choose the edition and stick with that one till you get a chunk of experience with it then you can tinker and add stuff otherwise you will get confused or frustrated because you broke something in the game by adding something you weren't aware of how it affects stuff.

Dave D. said: Maetco said: Which version of GURPS would you recommend? Which of the supplement books do you recommend? 4th edition is in print and a considerable improvement over 3rd edition, IMO. &nbsp;You can make do with just the two core books (Campaigns and Characters) for pretty much any game you want right out of the box if you're willing to put the work in. From there, it depends on what kind of game you want to run. &nbsp;My last GURPS campaign made use of High Tech, Mysteries, the 3rd edition Cops supplement and snippets of Social Engineering. &nbsp;I would have been just fine with just the core rules, honestly. &nbsp;The overwhelming majority of the supplements is well-researched fluff and not very heavy on mechanics, so you would be able to use most of a 3rd edition book with 4th edition or even another game system if you so chose down the road. What genres do you want to cover right away? &nbsp;That's going to drive any recommendations for supplements. &nbsp;I do find that GURPS pdfs aren't always a good value over tracking down hard copies, but your location and/or exchange rate might change that. Metroknight said: While 4th edition GURPS is considerably improved over the third, I find that the 3rd works just fine for low level stuff like a normal person facing zombies or such, it is just easier for me. Now if you are looking at going for special ops, super heroes, or a high magic fantasy style like Forgotten Realms or such then 4th edition would be your best bet.&nbsp; With you looking at maybe using this system with no experience to it, go with Dave D recommendation of 4th edition if you choose GURPS. This will help you be less confused between the editions. That can also apply to any other system you decide on. Choose the edition and stick with that one till you get a chunk of experience with it then you can tinker and add stuff otherwise you will get confused or frustrated because you broke something in the game by adding something you weren't aware of how it affects stuff. Thanks both of you! So 4th would seem to be a better pick. The reason for asking more about what editions etc. people would recommend is exactly because I don't want to end up reading several different editions of the same rules because after that I'll end up being confused, am mixing and matching rules from one edition to the rules of another edition and even after reading all the books I probably can't tell which would be the best. So I'm trying to use your experience in finding the right system first before actaully reading a single page so I can give that sytem my 100 % focus. About the genres I'm looking for something different and interesting. So no D&amp;D/Forgotten Realms, no Warhammer. If the setting is "normal" fantasy it has to have some very unique and interesting catch. I'm certainly interested in apocalyptic/modern environments also around 1890 - 1930 era would be very interesting but I think it might also be a bit difficult (not that this would be a big problem). So I don't really care about the genre too much as long as the environment isn't generic and is interesting. I'm fairly certain GURPS allows the use of interesting custom environments easily since it's meant to be "generic universal roleplaying system". So if you find some of the supplements to be very well written and especially interesting I would like to hear about them but if you feel their all just basic fluff supplements that helps one the get started with that genre campaign then I'll probably just turn all my efforst to the core rules. If something is exactly what I want and it's available money's not usually a problem. For example here, what's extra few dozen bucks for something I'll be using for the next 5+ years? Nothing but a whistle in the wind.

Maetco said: Metroknight said: The friday nite firefight is a very realistic combat system in most ways as long as you strip out any reference to cybernetics.&nbsp; Ok after little bit of Googling I found out that FNF is "just" a combat system which is used in Cyberpunk. Is it used elsewhere? Which actual game system (Cyberpunk? Which version? something else?) would you recommend that uses FNF?&nbsp; Thanks in advance! I'll stop pestering you after this. I just want to make sure you didn't miss my question or just forgot to answer it. I really appreciate any help.

You are not pestering Maetco. Everyone of us that has been answering your questions do so because we enjoy helping people. If we felt you were pestering then we would just ignore your questions. Now for the FNF, That is just the bare bones combat system for Cyberpunk. It is a lethal system but I wouldn't call it realistic. It was built with the idea in the developers mind to hand cyborgs and such so the damage scales rather fast. From your previous posts, I and another one or two seem to agree that GURPS would probably suit your desires the best. All the supplements for GURPS, old and new, are very detailed and they have made some of them for historical settings. I know there are Rome supplements that involve gladiators and there was a western, a chineses, and a few others that have rather accurate historic facts in them but you have to remember that they are written to be a game supplements. That just means they have to alter a few things to fit the game mechanics but that is rarely a problems. Gurps has made supplements that range from prehistoric, modern, futuristic (sci-fi, cyberpunk,space opera,ect), fantasy (they have their own world setting), various historical settings based on real life counties and their histories and that was just the 3rd edition. The 4th edition can use the 3rd edition supplements with little bit of work and it also has it own supplements. There are pdf's laying about the web but you will have to go looking for them yourself. I would recommend researching the system some and deciding for yourself. Good luck and if you have more questions then feel free to ask. That is why this community is here for.

Maetco said: If something is exactly what I want and it's available money's not usually a problem. For example here, what's extra few dozen bucks for something I'll be using for the next 5+ years? Nothing but a whistle in the wind. Just to let you know, I think I mentioned it in passing, that I've been a gurps player/GM since it came out in pamphlets. We are talking about the old Man to Man booklet and I can't remember off hand the one before that. I ran a Gurps campaign for 10 yrs straight that started out low level (100 points in the old edition) that scaled up to almost 1000 point characters when it finished. The game started out with normals then gained super powers and grew in experience and power. That group traveled time, dimensions, space, warped realities, and all types of adventures. They literally when to hell in a basket (it was a streetcar nicknamed basket but that is another story) and came back. I really think GURPS would fit what you are seeking. Take a look at it and lets us know. If it doesn't we will point others that might be what you are wanting.

Maetco said: So if you find some of the supplements to be very well written and especially interesting I would like to hear about them but if you feel their all just basic fluff supplements that helps one the get started with that genre campaign then I'll probably just turn all my efforst to the core rules. Beyond the core rules, I'd recommend both Low Tech and High Tech which allows you to cover any realistic game from the dawn of man up through today. &nbsp;If your background covers firearms, explosives and military equipment you could probably skip High Tech and just get the much cheaper firearm tables available through&nbsp; E23 Games . &nbsp;If you have any inkling you might run a mystery or investigative game but don't have any experience, GURPS Mysteries was very good, as was Cops for 3rd edition. &nbsp;The 3rd edition version of Space is a book I continually kick myself for selling, but I have no experience with the newer version - the system generation tables would still work, but might be a bit outdated in Astrophysics. I would avoid Tactical Shooting, Social Engineering, and Powers unless you are really, really interested in very specific mechanics for shooting/social encounters/superpowers. &nbsp;To me, there wasn't a need to go in depth in those areas for my game and there wasn't enough fluff to be a good purchase.

Kinda late to the game, but you may want to check out Savage Worlds as well.&nbsp; It's made by the same folks who did Deadlands and carries over a lot of the flavor from Deadlands, but simplifies things a little.&nbsp; There are no Hit Points and there is an unskilled mechanic.&nbsp; The combat is pretty easy and flexible to include things like tricks and tests of will, etc.&nbsp; It's also a pretty inexpensive game to get into.

Carl M. said: Kinda late to the game, but you may want to check out Savage Worlds as well.&nbsp; It's made by the same folks who did Deadlands and carries over a lot of the flavor from Deadlands, but simplifies things a little.&nbsp; There are no Hit Points and there is an unskilled mechanic.&nbsp; The combat is pretty easy and flexible to include things like tricks and tests of will, etc.&nbsp; It's also a pretty inexpensive game to get into. I love Savage Worlds and it's definitely my pick for best match between Roll20 and playable system, but combat/injuries aren't "realistic" in the sense that GURPS and The Riddle of Steel are. &nbsp;It certainly has plenty of tactical crunch to it on the other hand.

I could never wrap my head around how you used different dice sizes for different things and how somethings would shift a die up or down depending on what was happening. I have the core rules but never figured out how to make a character that looked right. This is not knocking the system or such just saying I couldn't figure it out.

@Dave D., I agree, the combat isn't 'realistic' in the literal sense of the word and I don't know enough about the other system to compare it to them, but it fits with the definition given in the original post: In a realistic system there shouldn't an abstract buffer which you can lose before anything actually happens and the suddenly you just die. There are ways to grit it up and make it more deadly, etc.&nbsp; However, there are no Hit Points or anything like that.&nbsp; You have 3 wounds you can take and on the fourth you go down.&nbsp; Mooks are either up or down, etc.&nbsp; So, that's why I threw it out there. :) @Metroknight - Yeah, not every system is for everyone.&nbsp; The mechanic you mention...the way I put my head around it is a skill level.&nbsp; Everyone starts at d4-2, but as you increase in skill the skill die type increases.&nbsp; Depending one's natural ability for that type of skill, it may be easier to increase the skill or it may be more difficult.&nbsp; But I can see how it would take some getting used to.

Carl M. said: Kinda late to the game, but you may want to check out Savage Worlds as well.&nbsp; It's made by the same folks who did Deadlands and carries over a lot of the flavor from Deadlands, but simplifies things a little.&nbsp; There are no Hit Points and there is an unskilled mechanic.&nbsp; The combat is pretty easy and flexible to include things like tricks and tests of will, etc.&nbsp; It's also a pretty inexpensive game to get into. Carl M. you definitely are not late. My goal is to have a good new campaign running somewhere next year and for that to happen I need to have a system picked before the end of this year so there's lots of time. I want the new system to be either realistic or to have a deep tactical combat system. If it has both great but only one of the two is minimum. So if the combat in Savage worlds is intriguing, deep and tactical then it definitely is a good contender. So what else can you tell me about Savage Worlds to sell it? What makes it so great? If you have a good link I'm happy to read on my own. And the same question, what supplement books would you encourage to get?

I'd like to add my vote to GURPS 4th edition being your best bet. I would grab Martial Arts, Powers and Magic along with the High and Low tech books, though.

Maetco said: Carl M. you definitely are not late. My goal is to have a good new campaign running somewhere next year and for that to happen I need to have a system picked before the end of this year so there's lots of time. I want the new system to be either realistic or to have a deep tactical combat system. If it has both great but only one of the two is minimum. So if the combat in Savage worlds is intriguing, deep and tactical then it definitely is a good contender. So what else can you tell me about Savage Worlds to sell it? What makes it so great? If you have a good link I'm happy to read on my own. And the same question, what supplement books would you encourage to get? Oh yeah - Savage Worlds certainly has deep and tactical combat and allows for player creativity and heroism through the use of Bennies. &nbsp;I'd check out the test drive rules&nbsp; over here. &nbsp; The Combat Survival Guide &nbsp;gives you a good feel for the various options in combat even without knowing the system. &nbsp;The good news is that the corebook is only ten USD, so it's easily accessible for everyone and worth the risk. &nbsp;In my mind it's the best value in gaming today. Savage Worlds has the single greatest setting book of all time in&nbsp; The Day After Ragnarok . &nbsp;It's been on my "Must Run Someday" list for a few years now. &nbsp;There's plenty of other options as well; I've heard good things about the Soloman Kane setting, the horror-meets-espionage Agents of Oblivion and the supervillains turned hero Necessary Evil book. &nbsp;Like GURPS, you only really need the core book to meet most of your gaming needs. &nbsp;I ran a really good Shadowrun game based off of the corebook and the 1st edition Shadowrun RPG for fluff. In the end, Savage Worlds sacrifices a little realism for fun, speed and ease of running. &nbsp;For some games the trade-off is absolutely worth it, it just depends on what kind of game you want to run. &nbsp;If you're planning on having combat involving more than eight or so characters at one time, I'd definitely go Savage Worlds over GURPS just to save on the GM's sanity.

i would look in to the Mazith tool set for GMs it works with most game systems and improves any game world a lot. oh and its free !

Malfane said: I'd like to add my vote to GURPS 4th edition being your best bet. I would grab Martial Arts, Powers and Magic along with the High and Low tech books, though. Duly noted and thanks for the input. Carl S. said: i would look in to the Mazith tool set for GMs it works with most game systems and improves any game world a lot. oh and its free ! Could you post a link if it's free?

Malfane said: I'd like to add my vote to GURPS 4th edition being your best bet. I would grab Martial Arts, Powers and Magic along with the High and Low tech books, though. Depends on what type of setting he wants he might want to pick those up. You could run a solid gurps game with just the core books which just 2 now, I think. Every source book out there is optional. All they do is add stuff into the mechanics or into the setting as extra. Unless they changed things drastically in the latest edition of gurps, you can play any setting. It might be limited but it could be done plus the cool thing with gurps (other systems might do it also) is that you can add supplements as you go without breaking the system. Say you want to start out as a group of federal marshals that are hunting terrorist only to discover they are a cult of cthulthu worshippers and they summoned a shambler. This could done with the core books or you could add horror, &nbsp;high tech, and maybe magic. Now after that adventure and a few more, those same marshals are developing unusual powers from being exposed to the wierd magic (dimensional energy, &nbsp;etc). You could use the core rules or add in powers or magic if you haven't yet. Now through the use of their powers they have travel back in time to deal with changes in the time stream. You can use the core rules or add time travel book, low tech(if you haven't yet), and any particular setting you want like medieavel europe or the old west or anything you want to research like 1800's in ireland. Thumbs tired from typing on phone, post more if needed.

I can't add much to what Dave D. said about Savage Worlds.&nbsp; Our group used to play various systems, but to keep things easy, we converted all of our games (Fantasy, Dark Sci-fi, Sci-fi, Pirate, Old West...) to Savage Worlds.&nbsp; That way we only had to learn one rule-set and it can handle just about anything we want to play. Some cool things about Savage Worlds that haven't been mentioned: Has tactical rules for miniature-like games called Savage Worlds Showdown Has a ton of user-created conversions (non-Savage Worlds Settings that others have converted to Savage Worlds) at Savage Heroes Can use the Optional Adventure Deck which provides some unique plot twists that the Players can use to get out of a tight spot.&nbsp; You can also see some user created Cards to get a feel for what the deck can do for players here . There are awesome chase rules that work for vehicular chases, foot chases or a combination of the two There are some pretty awesome One-shots available from Pinnacle's website for free - those are short pre-fab adventures you can download and use Depending on the genre you want your setting to be in, you can get various " companion books " to help customize the rules to fit your setting. If you decide to go with any of the Pinnacle published settings you can often get a "Player's Guide" for $10-$15 instead of forcing the players to purchase the full rulebook.&nbsp; These books typically contain the first half the Setting Rulebook and everything the players would need in order to generate characters.&nbsp; These also typically come with a Site License which allows you to print to off multiple copies for every player - that way only one copy needs to be purchased for the players, not one for every player.&nbsp; I realize this may be less useful for a VTT environment, but....I have used it as a cheap way to get info on a particular setting (i.e. Necessary Evil) when I wanted a certain mechanic (in this case Super Powers) without having to purchase the full Setting Rulebook, because I wasn't interested in the pre-fab adventure that comes with the full rules. I hope this helps,

Metroknight said: the cool thing with gurps (other systems might do it also) is that you can add supplements as you go without breaking the system. Say you want to start out as a group of federal marshals that are hunting terrorist only to discover they are a cult of cthulthu worshippers and they summoned a shambler. This could done with the core books or you could add horror, &nbsp;high tech, and maybe magic. Now after that adventure and a few more, those same marshals are developing unusual powers from being exposed to the wierd magic (dimensional energy, &nbsp;etc). You could use the core rules or add in powers or magic if you haven't yet. Now through the use of their powers they have travel back in time to deal with changes in the time stream. You can use the core rules or add time travel book, low tech(if you haven't yet), and any particular setting you want like medieavel europe or the old west or anything you want to research like 1800's in ireland. I hadn't thought of that (the ability to include completely new and unconnected supplements later on). P.s.That would be one epic campaign + it made laugh a bit (I bet that is exactly how the US government sees islamists as a cult of cthulthu worshippers).

Carl M. said: @Dave D., I agree, the combat isn't 'realistic' in the literal sense of the word and I don't know enough about the other system to compare it to them, but it fits with the definition given in the original post: In a realistic system there shouldn't an abstract buffer which you can lose before anything actually happens and the suddenly you just die. There are ways to grit it up and make it more deadly, etc.&nbsp; However, there are no Hit Points or anything like that.&nbsp; You have 3 wounds you can take and on the fourth you go down.&nbsp; Mooks are either up or down, etc.&nbsp; So, that's why I threw it out there. :) When I read this it didn't really make any sense. I mean just because you start calling HP wounds (WFRP has wounds too) it doesn't mean the actual mechanic is gone. But after reading that testdrive-pdf (btw thanks Dave D.) it made perfect sense. "Normal" people only have 1 wound and if they lose it they are incabable to do anything but not necessary dead. Basically this means that there is no abstract buffer. If you get hurt you get hurt. The game doesn't have realistic "critical" effects but that is not all bad. It means the fighting is faster and less time is spent reading tables. The biggest problem with realism comes with the PC's (and other "Wild cards"). That might be a problem depending on what/who the PCs actually are (it might make perfect sense if the're not normal humans). I googled a bit and it seems that Savage Worlds is kind of a sequal system for Deadlands and they both are generally considered to be very good and especially fun. Thanks Carl and Dave for mentioning this system. I am very tempted to at least test it with that test drive document. It might end up being a bit too unrealistic/simplistic for this campaign depending on the specifics (which are not at all decided yet) but even if that happens I might end up using this system in something else.

The bit that I posted about the marshals was a summary from one of my old gurps campaigns. It was a 3rd edition campaign but it ran for many years.

Maetco said: Thanks Carl and Dave for mentioning this system. I am very tempted to at least test it with that test drive document. It might end up being a bit too unrealistic/simplistic for this campaign depending on the specifics (which are not at all decided yet) but even if that happens I might end up using this system in something else. You're welcome! &nbsp;Savage Worlds also has a tendency to play better than it reads. &nbsp;The rule book, while not bland, doesn't convey how smooth the system runs in actual play and I've found it's easy for newcomers to pick up the system even through Roll20. &nbsp;Also, there's a surprising bit of depth that doesn't reveal itself until it gets used. I've been trying to come up with a concise description of the difference between GURPS and Savage Worlds and the best one I can think of would be to use action/spy movies as an analogy. &nbsp;GURPS is Ronin, Spartan and The Hunt for Red October - the protagonists suffer fallout from each combat and success isn't guaranteed. &nbsp;Savage Worlds is Die Hard , Goldeneye and the Bourne series - success seems more certain, but it isn't without complications and the whole show teeters on the edge of plausibility. &nbsp;Both are tremendous amounts of fun when matched to the correct premise.

Acronyms: I'm assuming WFRP means&nbsp;Whole Farm Revenue Program. Realistic: Damage: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition. &nbsp;Damage is resisted by toughness. &nbsp;When you are hit you make a toughness save, failure determines the results of the hit, if you fail by a little you just take a damage to the toughness save, more degrees of failure result in larger mechanical damage effects, ultimately resulting in getting put down, depending on how lethal a game the GM is running. Unlocking Skills/Feats: In Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition The extra effort mechanic allows a character to apply any fitting ability trait they may have into a temporary use of a skill or advantage to get themselves out of a sticky situation. Unrealistic Situations: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition has only as hard a time with this as you want it to. &nbsp;It's for Comic Book role playing. &nbsp;The realisms quotient can go anywhere from grimdark to four color though so it is more a matter of the GM providing a disclaimer about the realism rules before play begins. Tactical: The options available to a player character are limited only by their imagination and to a lesser degree the situation and the build of the character they are playing, they can always try using the extra effort mechanic to expand their abilities in some spectacular temporary fashion, at the cost of becoming fatigued, exhausted, or even passing out from the strain due if they display enough sheer determination. Price: Free. &nbsp; <a href="http://www.d20herosrd.com" rel="nofollow">www.d20herosrd.com</a> Paperback: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition Hardback: DC Adventures

John "No Skype" T. said: Acronyms: I'm assuming WFRP means&nbsp;Whole Farm Revenue Program. Realistic: Damage: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition. &nbsp;Damage is resisted by toughness. &nbsp;When you are hit you make a toughness save, failure determines the results of the hit, if you fail by a little you just take a damage to the toughness save, more degrees of failure result in larger mechanical damage effects, ultimately resulting in getting put down, depending on how lethal a game the GM is running. Unlocking Skills/Feats: In Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition The extra effort mechanic allows a character to apply any fitting ability trait they may have into a temporary use of a skill or advantage to get themselves out of a sticky situation. Unrealistic Situations: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition has only as hard a time with this as you want it to. &nbsp;It's for Comic Book role playing. &nbsp;The realisms quotient can go anywhere from grimdark to four color though so it is more a matter of the GM providing a disclaimer about the realism rules before play begins. Tactical: The options available to a player character are limited only by their imagination and to a lesser degree the situation and the build of the character they are playing, they can always try using the extra effort mechanic to expand their abilities in some spectacular temporary fashion, at the cost of becoming fatigued, exhausted, or even passing out from the strain due if they display enough sheer determination. Price: Free. &nbsp; <a href="http://www.d20herosrd.com" rel="nofollow">www.d20herosrd.com</a> Paperback: Mutants and Masterminds Third Edition Hardback: DC Adventures Thanks for the reply! I decided to go for Savage Worlds Deluxe and Deadlands Reloaded more precisely. It definitely is different from anything I have tried before and seems fun and interesting. Also it seems to be very loved system (among those who have actually tried it). I haven't had any testing yet so can't really say much about how it plays out or how "realistic" it feels but especially with extras it's very easy to understand the damage system (I mean what really happens in-game when someone takes damage).

If you ever get a pull towards sci fi especially Hard sci fi pretty realistic feeling in most respects other than futuristic genre conventions like fusion power, and hyperspace travel, and everyone carries a laser rifle, go for Mongoose Traveller. Detailed lifepath, characters start out as ages from 18 to 50ish. Unforgiving combat. Skill-based game, rather than level based. You play your pc as if it was from an episodic TV show like Firefly or Serenity which were based on Traveller (without the wild west stuff). Average 21 hit points total for life unless you are playing a buffed space marine or something, then you might have 30. Weapons on average like rifles will do 12 to 18 per hit, but even so on average at 7 you get knocked out from pain. So characters wear armor and reflective suits to stop plasers or a clamshell battlesuit infantry unit unit like starship troopers or haldeman's forever war. Space combat is deadly between ships too, so much so that combat is generally negotiated, avoided or ran from, Some bad guy pirate ship can hit you with missiles from the other side of the planet, wrecks your ship or blows it to pieces. On the ground, a simple mugging in an alley is doable but when blades come out you can get gutted in a round or two. A missile hitting the ship is often enough to knock it out. Like a world war II torpedo style hit. Multiple characters dying instantly. none of this hide in plain sight unless you have a radically expensive tech device to do that. In ground combat you tend to want to ambush enemies a stand up fight kills characters. Many play it like aliens the film. On the down side moving away from reality there are things like cryo tubes from aliens the film, and jump drives to travel space to the next star takes a week average. so that's not realistic according to the cscience we know. And they have things like psionic grenades to stun a psychic from spying on you or setting you on fire. But psychics are rare. It is full of optional realistic equations if you want to use them to calculate: what gasses a planet could hold in it's atmosphere, how long the day is, how does a moon affect volcanoes tides, etc. or blow it off and play it like a softer sort of setting like star wars. Most of the guys in the team that wrote Traveller served in 'Nam in the Army and Navy. I like it because it feels semi or mostly military. I run two groups of it here, different scenarios, shared campaign: Sector Six. Year 5440 AD. 300 light years from Earth. I'm retired from the Navy and have run Traveller since 1977. I didn't mistype that. Welcome to roll 20.