How to deal with....

I created a post with suggestions to house rules for an upcoming Pathfinder campaign. However the overall goal of the rules were to provide a fair, fun, and balanced game play for all players.  That said, the biggest obstacle I face more frequently in the Pathfinder system than in other systems are a few types of problem gamers.  This is not a "I hate min/maxer" thread. Min/maxers, powergamers, and hard core role players can each ruin the game in various ways.Min/maxers optimize and can break many encounters making others feel useless, power gamers can seize control of groups and try to force others to play "their" way. Hard core role players can spend hours talking about a campfire in character and monopolize too much time on their character.  I don't mind the three as every player should be able to have their way and play to the game the way they like. However, If any player/character is ruining the everyone else's fun, then it's time to have a group discussion to address this.  The most severe solution would be to kick out the player who consistently ruins the fun for everyone at the VTT. However this is tricky to do in Pathfinder as a large part of the game is heavy customization that empowers all three problem routes if each player goes too far with them.  My question is how do other GM's deal with each in their own way?

To start with i do not play pathfinder I play a game called the Mazith system but i still think this info will help. not sure i know what a min/maxer is but i often have a players that are just there for combat an do not roll play at all. they are the type of player to say in one game session "i follow along" 5 or 6 times. that order a drink at the bar by saying "i order a drink" instead of talking to the bartender. for this type of player i have invented a bug that Lives in my world called the follower bug that can appear on the backs of players biting them for a permeate loss of a hit point this bug attacks those that are week willed and follow others.  the fear of this bug has been enough to fix this type of player. power players  these are tough to deal with and a common problem. In my world it uselessly means that the pc  some how is more powerful then the party at least when it comes to combat. there are a few ways to deal with this  1. monsters and bad guys are not dumb if they see one person doing most of the party's damage then they will team up on that person. and kill them off. 2.you are the GM as long as you use logic that can be explained such as "a high level guild of wizard/assassins seen you in the last town use your power/skill/spell (that is driving you as GM nuts) and just casted drain power/skill/spell on you roll % or save or what ever your game uses.  3.when there power lays in items  just have your best thief's in the land want what ever it is that you don't want them to have. in other words you are god don't forget to use your power :) but use it with logic so your not just being a ass hole! :( how to deal with Hard core role players these are the hardest for me to deal with because i am often enjoying what they are doing. and wish the other players would key in more on this  the best way I have found for wen it is becoming disruptive is throw something at them if they are just setting around a campfire talking have monsters attack if there in the bar, have the bar made piss off some one and they start betting her up (if you have a party of good that is ) any ways  the point is if its moving to slow move it along.  I hope these have been useful ideas for you  ps drop me a line some time i am always on :)   and i make GM tool programs to help Game masters if you ever need let me know    

Carl (The Green Man) said: To start with i do not play pathfinder I play a game called the Mazith system but i still think this info will help. not sure i know what a min/maxer is but i often have a players that are just there for combat an do not roll play at all. they are the type of player to say in one game session "i follow along" 5 or 6 times. that order a drink at the bar by saying "i order a drink" instead of talking to the bartender. for this type of player i have invented a bug that Lives in my world called the follower bug that can appear on the backs of players biting them for a permeate loss of a hit point this bug attacks those that are week willed and follow others.  the fear of this bug has been enough to fix this type of player. power players  these are tough to deal with and a common problem. In my world it uselessly means that the pc  some how is more powerful then the party at least when it comes to combat. there are a few ways to deal with this  1. monsters and bad guys are not dumb if they see one person doing most of the party's damage then they will team up on that person. and kill them off. 2.you are the GM as long as you use logic that can be explained such as "a high level guild of wizard/assassins seen you in the last town use your power/skill/spell (that is driving you as GM nuts) and just casted drain power/skill/spell on you roll % or save or what ever your game uses.  3.when there power lays in items  just have your best thief's in the land want what ever it is that you don't want them to have. in other words you are god don't forget to use your power :) but use it with logic so your not just being a ass hole! :( how to deal with Hard core role players these are the hardest for me to deal with because i am often enjoying what they are doing. and wish the other players would key in more on this  the best way I have found for wen it is becoming disruptive is throw something at them if they are just setting around a campfire talking have monsters attack if there in the bar, have the bar made piss off some one and they start betting her up (if you have a party of good that is ) any ways  the point is if its moving to slow move it along.  I hope these have been useful ideas for you  ps drop me a line some time i am always on :)   and i make GM tool programs to help Game masters if you ever need let me know     Thanks tor the reply I ask because these are not a problem with several players I have played with for many years. However I will be opening recruitment for my upcoming Pathfinder campaign soon and in my past experiences with Virtual games tables and Physical game tables are that I usually have 1 or 2 "problem" players, 1 or 2 "ideal" players (contribute to the fun of the group, balance of all three aspects above, helpful to new players, etc.), and the rest are pretty much good players neither a problem nor a boon. Min/Max has been around since D&D 1E. Basically it is the player who maximizes the strengths of a character or concept while minimiizing all the negatives to make a "super man" type character. These players should not be confused with Power Gamers however. Everyone is guilty of min/maxing to a degree (most players want to be awesome at something) but it only becomes a problem when they do it for many things that overshadow the others who just want play a specific character who is only good at one or two things.  I too also use the "instant event" for role players who are hogging too much spot light. Sometimes having someone just kick down a door or a phantom Perception check to make them feel like they are being watched does the trick nicely. Pathfinder is weak to all these three due to the sources, feats, mechanics, structured role play, tactics, etc. it uses as part of its core foundation (carried over from D&D 3.5 but revised in good ways). So these problem players tend to stand out more in this system and can cause more trouble easier because the system gives them all the tools needed for them. Again just curious as to others approaches to this as I want everyone to play their way but i want everyone to be able to do so not just 1 or 2 players in a group of 6 or 8 players. 

Just thought I would give my two cents as this is something that applies to any system/game not just pathfinder. To me the best way to deal with min/max'ers and power gamers is to first state when people create characters is that you are not looking for them to be in your game. Just telling people not to do it should do the trick as most players have learned not to incur the wrath of the DM at some point during their lives. However some are either ballsy or stubborn enough to do it in which case there are some interesting ways to handle them. Min/Max Well as the name implies these characters are really good at some things but real crappy at others, so the best way to deal with them especially after implicitly expressing the fact you didn't want them in your game is to put them in situations that prey upon the min side of their character. In most d20 based games it is going to be their charisma or wisdom so have them be arrested without the rest of the party knowing and then have to use their charisma based skills in order to prove they were framed. Have the enemies start using abilities that are saved/resisted by their willpower etc. I mean the possibilities are limited only by your imagination, and the best part is you don't have to explain everything right away. Lots of stuff happens in stories, movies, life that don't get explained till later down the line if at all. Now this tends to go against my rule of the DM being the players enemy as you are actively looking to fuck over a character but honestly if they are doing something you said you didn't want then they very well deserve it. It's almost as if you had said "stop poking me or I will hit you" so they can't bitch if they continue poking you and you strike them. You literally told them the result their actions would garner. Power Gamer Dealing with them is just as easy as dealing with min/max'ing. You place them/the party into situations where this one character being able to punch a person into the sun has no bearing. Conversely you strip the players power away from them; thieves steal the items, the get cursed by their enemies etc. If you strip them of their power it might actually lead to quests/adventures/plot hooks in which the character(s) then have to regain their power piece by piece and you can then affect the pace in which they regain said power and thus balance your game. Now if you have expressed to your players during character creation that you didn't want min/max'ing or power gamers you then have a choice in front of you. Do you continue to deal with the character/player or do you remove the elements from your game. This may seem harsh but at the end of the day if a player or players are ruining the game for the rest then it is best to get rid of them. It is possible that should you kill off their characters they will then respect your wishes and make a character that is neither of those things but it is unlikely. There are many games that want or need those types of players so don't think they won't find them. I tend to not be so forgiving, if I tell you not to do something and you do it then in my eyes you don't respect the game so you gots to go. Hardcore RPer's Now personally I have never had this come up as a problem so I have not actually had any experience dealing with it as we are playing a role playing game so players shouldn't be penalized for role playing no matter how much they do it. As a DM/GM what you should do if you notice that one person seems to be rping a lot is ask the other players questions that correlate to the rp going on in order to promote them to join. Once again we are playing RPG's ake Role Playing Games so RP is kinda necessary. If you notice that your other players aren't joining in even after you attempt to prompt them then either pull the player aside and ask him to tone it down so the others get used to it / into the rp OR you move the story along. Carl had some good examples of how to do this so I won't bother rehashing them. Once again though the best way to deal with a hardcore RPer is turn the rest of the players into hardcore rper's.

Heartagun said: Just thought I would give my two cents as this is something that applies to any system/game not just pathfinder. To me the best way to deal with min/max'ers and power gamers is to first state when people create characters is that you are not looking for them to be in your game. Just telling people not to do it should do the trick as most players have learned not to incur the wrath of the DM at some point during their lives. However some are either ballsy or stubborn enough to do it in which case there are some interesting ways to handle them. Min/Max Well as the name implies these characters are really good at some things but real crappy at others, so the best way to deal with them especially after implicitly expressing the fact you didn't want them in your game is to put them in situations that prey upon the min side of their character. In most d20 based games it is going to be their charisma or wisdom so have them be arrested without the rest of the party knowing and then have to use their charisma based skills in order to prove they were framed. Have the enemies start using abilities that are saved/resisted by their willpower etc. I mean the possibilities are limited only by your imagination, and the best part is you don't have to explain everything right away. Lots of stuff happens in stories, movies, life that don't get explained till later down the line if at all. Now this tends to go against my rule of the DM being the players enemy as you are actively looking to fuck over a character but honestly if they are doing something you said you didn't want then they very well deserve it. It's almost as if you had said "stop poking me or I will hit you" so they can't bitch if they continue poking you and you strike them. You literally told them the result their actions would garner. Power Gamer Dealing with them is just as easy as dealing with min/max'ing. You place them/the party into situations where this one character being able to punch a person into the sun has no bearing. Conversely you strip the players power away from them; thieves steal the items, the get cursed by their enemies etc. If you strip them of their power it might actually lead to quests/adventures/plot hooks in which the character(s) then have to regain their power piece by piece and you can then affect the pace in which they regain said power and thus balance your game. Now if you have expressed to your players during character creation that you didn't want min/max'ing or power gamers you then have a choice in front of you. Do you continue to deal with the character/player or do you remove the elements from your game. This may seem harsh but at the end of the day if a player or players are ruining the game for the rest then it is best to get rid of them. It is possible that should you kill off their characters they will then respect your wishes and make a character that is neither of those things but it is unlikely. There are many games that want or need those types of players so don't think they won't find them. I tend to not be so forgiving, if I tell you not to do something and you do it then in my eyes you don't respect the game so you gots to go. Hardcore RPer's Now personally I have never had this come up as a problem so I have not actually had any experience dealing with it as we are playing a role playing game so players shouldn't be penalized for role playing no matter how much they do it. As a DM/GM what you should do if you notice that one person seems to be rping a lot is ask the other players questions that correlate to the rp going on in order to promote them to join. Once again we are playing RPG's ake Role Playing Games so RP is kinda necessary. If you notice that your other players aren't joining in even after you attempt to prompt them then either pull the player aside and ask him to tone it down so the others get used to it / into the rp OR you move the story along. Carl had some good examples of how to do this so I won't bother rehashing them. Once again though the best way to deal with a hardcore RPer is turn the rest of the players into hardcore rper's. Great advice. Thanks for the reply

Hey there! Min Maxers and power gamers leave tons of weakness in their character.  Sure they're great at one thing, but they leave themselves very vulnerable elsewhere.  For example, a wizard who stacks intelligence and hitpoints but dumps strength is susceptible to burdening spells and encumbrance, which when in place, causes his penalties to decimate the ability to cast spells.  Min/maxers exist because the system encourages it, but they come with a very heavy price, and when you as the GM exploit that, the house of cards they're playing on comes crumbling down.  Now, the purpose of being a GM is not "GM vs. Players" the purpose is to create a "tricky and meaningful experience" so don't focus on min-maxers as the enemy, but rather as a weakness that can either really help, or really hurt the party, especially when the party becomes heavily reliant on them.  My favorite things to do to characters who get a bit out of hand is to wait until the party starts expecting them to be successful, and then hamstring them, forcing the party to re-evaluate their positions, and making the min-maxer question his build. The easiest way to deal with a min-maxer is to hamstring them.  The easiest way to deal with a power-gamer is to offer your other players carrots and cookies that tailor to their builds, and make them useful, effectively stripping power from the power gamer and spreading it back to the rest of the party.  The power gamer may call them gimped, but this will only last right up until their odd or unique talents are used to consistently solve unique problems. I deal with hardcore roleplayers by moving the story along.  If they want to sit by a campfire and talk all night, that's cool, but the caravan is leaving them behind, or the amount of noise they're making attracts a bandit raiding party.  You, the GM, have story you want to deliver to the PCs, and when someone's rail-roading that effort by LARPing it up, send a train down that rail-road to get the story moving again.  Sudden action tends to differentiate between business and pleasure. I also encourage heavy role-playing between sessions on my game boards.  After each session I create a role-play thread where the characters can interact in character through text, so that instead of boring the pants off the rest of the party in game, they can get the character development out of the way during downtime, and game can be more focused on plot advancement and action.

Waffles said: Hey there! Min Maxers and power gamers leave tons of weakness in their character.  Sure they're great at one thing, but they leave themselves very vulnerable elsewhere.  For example, a wizard who stacks intelligence and hitpoints but dumps strength is susceptible to burdening spells and encumbrance, which when in place, causes his penalties to decimate the ability to cast spells.  Min/maxers exist because the system encourages it, but they come with a very heavy price, and when you as the GM exploit that, the house of cards they're playing on comes crumbling down.  Now, the purpose of being a GM is not "GM vs. Players" the purpose is to create a "tricky and meaningful experience" so don't focus on min-maxers as the enemy, but rather as a weakness that can either really help, or really hurt the party, especially when the party becomes heavily reliant on them.  My favorite things to do to characters who get a bit out of hand is to wait until the party starts expecting them to be successful, and then hamstring them, forcing the party to re-evaluate their positions, and making the min-maxer question his build. The easiest way to deal with a min-maxer is to hamstring them.  The easiest way to deal with a power-gamer is to offer your other players carrots and cookies that tailor to their builds, and make them useful, effectively stripping power from the power gamer and spreading it back to the rest of the party.  The power gamer may call them gimped, but this will only last right up until their odd or unique talents are used to consistently solve unique problems. I deal with hardcore roleplayers by moving the story along.  If they want to sit by a campfire and talk all night, that's cool, but the caravan is leaving them behind, or the amount of noise they're making attracts a bandit raiding party.  You, the GM, have story you want to deliver to the PCs, and when someone's rail-roading that effort by LARPing it up, send a train down that rail-road to get the story moving again.  Sudden action tends to differentiate between business and pleasure. I also encourage heavy role-playing between sessions on my game boards.  After each session I create a role-play thread where the characters can interact in character through text, so that instead of boring the pants off the rest of the party in game, they can get the character development out of the way during downtime, and game can be more focused on plot advancement and action. Thanks for the reply. About the Min/Max players in your advice, I have noticed this as well. Some of the more balanced Min/max players (not all min/max is bad) will purposly embrace these flaws as flawed characters are more fun to role play then "perfect" ones. I have no problem with this until it creeps into ruining other's fun. 

David D. said:  I have no problem with this until it creeps into ruining other's fun.  The best way to defeat a min maxer is, like I said, to hamstring them by their weakness and let the party overcome the obstacle around them.  Make them realize that they are flawed, and that you know this flaw.  To hit them once on their weakness is a statement that you're not about to ignore it, and that unless it's changed it's going to be a problem for them.  In the wizard example, casting ray of exhaustion is pretty much a standard spell against spell casters, it's the one I use when fighting other casters as a caster.  This will force the min-maxed spell caster to take ray of exhaustion (if they're smart) and instead of nuking or doing what they normally do, they'll have to dedicate to counter-spelling. Alternatively, grapples, snares and the like are also very debilitating.  No matter what class they're playing, if they're min-maxed they're going to have a very, very clear weakness and it's either going to be reflected in: Stats (negative modifiers), Saves (one or two low saves), hitpoints (lower than average hitpoints), CMD (low dex/str = low CMD), or armor class.  And once you hit them in that weakness, they're pretty much forced to change tactics...  Usually revealing another weakness. For clarity: ray of exhaustion is a strength affecting spell that either inflicts -2 or -6 strength (if they make fort save, -2), which on a wizard who usually has a negative strength modifier already, it means they're going to become super encumbered to the point where they may not have the strength to even lift themselves off the ground and become toppled by their gear.  For fighters, something requiring a will save is usually extremely effective.  Against something like a Paladin, a touch attack like shocking grasp is usually enough to send them jolting.   Low HP, high AC/Save creatures always take damage from magic missile (except in the case of shield, which they don't usually have). I think you get the idea.

Step One: Session Zero. Before the campaign begins, you meet with your players and hash out what the expectations for the game will be. Once you've come to an agreement, hold people to that agreement. That includes yourself - the DM is not above agreements he has made just because he's the DM. Build your game collectively around that agreement. Step Two: Understand Optimization Only Answers One Question. The default dramatic question of D&D of any edition, around which the game's math is balanced (or not balanced as the case may be) is "Will Team Hero defeat Team Monster (or vice versa)?" Optimization is the most efficient means of answering that question in the favor of Team Hero. Rather than negate the system mastery for which the player wants to be rewarded, you can simply change the dramatic question of the scene to "Will Team Hero or Team Monster get the McGuffin first?", "Can the heroes stop the monsters from holding this spot on the map for 3 rounds?", "Can the heroes get to Princess Lilac before the cave-in?" etc. So now it doesn't really matter how much damage Ragnar can dish out. Or how many quickened spells he's got. Or rather, it matters less since he can go and annihilate all the enemies and still lose . He'll have to actually think how to win. A game that is challenging on this level is also more engaging, especially to optimizers who both get to optimize and be challenged. It's win-win. (If you've ever played in some of Iserith's pick-up games here, you'll know what I'm talking about.) Step Three: Only Have Scenes with a Dramatic Question. This one covers your issue with "heavy roleplayers" (which isn't an accurate term anyway since combat is roleplaying). The dramatic question of a scene is a way of describing the stakes. What's the point of this scene? What will be revealed or change? What is the conflict? If there is no conflict and nothing to be revealed, then the scene doesn't get screen time - sorry aimless campfire, shopping, tavern, or NPC interaction scene, you're cut! Does that mean every scene must be combat? No, not at all. But it must have a point or else you're headed for the sort of aimless in-character interaction that kills the pacing of the game. Every scene in a TV show or movie has a dramatic question. It should be the same in D&D. "Will the heroes earn their way into Valhalla before the Endless Night?" is great for an action scene. "Will Mialee finally tell her friends why she has it out for gnomes?" is great for a transition scene. Learn how to skip past "empty time," that is, the time that exists between meaningful choices and change. True drama and character development are these things, not about sticking to a concept you came up with by yourself. A good roleplayer knows this; sadly, many who call themselves that, don't.

Waffles said: David D. said:  I have no problem with this until it creeps into ruining other's fun.  The best way to defeat a min maxer is, like I said, to hamstring them by their weakness and let the party overcome the obstacle around them.  Make them realize that they are flawed, and that you know this flaw.  To hit them once on their weakness is a statement that you're not about to ignore it, and that unless it's changed it's going to be a problem for them.  In the wizard example, casting ray of exhaustion is pretty much a standard spell against spell casters, it's the one I use when fighting other casters as a caster.  This will force the min-maxed spell caster to take ray of exhaustion (if they're smart) and instead of nuking or doing what they normally do, they'll have to dedicate to counter-spelling. Alternatively, grapples, snares and the like are also very debilitating.  No matter what class they're playing, if they're min-maxed they're going to have a very, very clear weakness and it's either going to be reflected in: Stats (negative modifiers), Saves (one or two low saves), hitpoints (lower than average hitpoints), CMD (low dex/str = low CMD), or armor class.  And once you hit them in that weakness, they're pretty much forced to change tactics...  Usually revealing another weakness. For clarity: ray of exhaustion is a strength affecting spell that either inflicts -2 or -6 strength (if they make fort save, -2), which on a wizard who usually has a negative strength modifier already, it means they're going to become super encumbered to the point where they may not have the strength to even lift themselves off the ground and become toppled by their gear.  For fighters, something requiring a will save is usually extremely effective.  Against something like a Paladin, a touch attack like shocking grasp is usually enough to send them jolting.   Low HP, high AC/Save creatures always take damage from magic missile (except in the case of shield, which they don't usually have). I think you get the idea. Thanks for the reply Lots of good points here. My concern is not defeating the players as that is bad game hosting. As a GM I am secretly on the players side. I am not concerned about these player types with my current group as they all know how to respect others and still have fun breaking the game. It makes things fun. However my concern is that I will again be opening my games publicly online (in person isn't too bad because I can see them play in other groups and they can see how I run my games) which is has higher risk of bringing in bad behavior to the group.  These three player types have always had the worst affect in my games and everyone has posted many good suggestions on approaching the issue if it so should arise. 

I'd just like to reiterate the importance of getting prospective players together before the actual game begins.  Any time you have the opportunity to elaborate on what kind of game you want to run or participate in before dice get rolled, the game only gets better.  As a side effect, the more discussion you have prior to the game, the more likely you are to weed out players that will no-show.  Better they no-show to a discussion session than something pivotal to the campaign. Taking that one step further, if you're concerned about these types of players, why not run a series of one shots to build up a recruitment pool?  That way, you'd only have to deal with a problem player for an evening or two and likewise players could get a feel for the type of game you want to run before committing to a full-bore campaign.   I'd also like to call out Waffles'  idea of encouraging in-character roleplaying on the discussion boards as another really good idea you might want to consider.  Let people who want to really inhabit their character have the opportunity to while not taking game time away from the group.  Worst case scenario, you have someone handing you free plot hooks for your game. You might also get some mileage out of switching to a game system less focused on system mastery - that might not be a plausible option for you and certainly no game does away with system mastery entirely.  However, with a pool of 250,000 Roll20 players, you have the option of running things you might not get the chance to in meatspace.

Only Have Scenes with a Dramatic Question. You missed reveals character, answers a question, reveals new information. Otherwise your best post here on the site by far. Campfires can be good if they reveal: -a story on how the pc handled themself in a prior battle. -The reason why he decided to let the shop burn and instead save his grandfather's sword. -The fact that the PC is in ffact wanted, and the people following him have hired wizards with scrying devices. Shopping scenes can reveal why things are so expensive, when roleplayed. Handing the list over and players review and write notes down, sure it's OOC. But in a game like D&D sometimes necessary, because even though you don't see it on a screen in a film, players like to spend the shinies. Aimless Tavern scenes can reveal a tale, introduce a minstrel, create an enemy. Sitting around drinking can lead to a fight or a jail plot twist, Yeah, you are going to maybe say well then it is not aimless but new guy GM here seeing no Tavern scene takes it for action, and makes a game of dragon battle, portal bash, wizard battle which is good for a certain style but not all in bold no less. What NPC interaction scenes are useless? Player as PC: "Who lives here in this village?" Old Crone: "People?" That's just good for comic relief. Not as a steady diet, granted.