Shuttle

Started this topic so that we could keep the "Putting Humpty Dumpty back together again" thread clear for discussion about the Ares/Apollo. 
We've got a bad habit of derailing ourselves! So here's a new set of tracks so that its less of a problem. 

Just some ideas concerning the personal scale weapons:

• A 90 dton craft may have up to 4 ships scale weapons and 9 personal scale weapons. So we have room for 1 more. 
• Personally I love auto cannons, but I'm not sure if they're what we're after. Flame throwers on a space ship just seems weird to me. I figured it may be good if the weapon mounts filled a more defensive role. I'm figuring the Point Defense Gatling laser and Support Auto Grenade Launcher would be good replacements. The laser is to protect against incoming missiles and the grenade launcher could launch smoke, anti-laser aerosol or chaff. These weapons still pack a bit of punch, but their better for providing cover. For punch we have the ship scale lasers and sandcasters. 
• An alternative could be to replace them with weapons we actually have skills in. Support lasers use the Gun Combat (energy rifle) skill. Jeff has that sorted. PGMPs use the Hvy Wpns (MPA) skill. Kayleb has two ranks in that. K also has a rank in Hvy Wpns (Launchers) for things like grenade launchers, rockets and missiles. 
• Maybe the 9th personal scale weapon could be some kind of tail gun?

Based on the existing deck plan, hard to see where we’d put a tail gun...

Automated blister turret above the rear door?

I dunno, that’s a bit of a tough sell, in my opinion. You usually need cargo loading & unloading stuff, and door mechanism stuff there.

If it's a ramp that folds down I would imagine the mechanisms to be on the sides or floor.

If not, belly turret then? 

Or maybe a cobra gunship style chin turret would be pretty sweet?

It's just that we have one extra weapon we can put on somewhere. 

A couple of sheets for the assault shuttle:

Assault Shuttle (with pimpage)
The first sheet is the assault shuttle copied from the book. 
The second sheet is with some slight mods. 

The following is 100% suggestion. Feel free to flame these ideas and suggest your own.

Flame throwers and auto cannons have been swapped with PD Gatling Lasers and Support RAM grenade launchers. Thought defensive weapons were what we were looking for. And the flame throwers just seemed weird to me.
Also added a Support Laser weapon for Jeff. Uses the Gun Combat (laser rifle) skill, so he would be able to kick arse with that. 

Added 6 state rooms and 2 tons of luxuries (enough luxury to take care of 6 High passengers without the need of a steward).

Cabin Space for 4. "Ecconomy class" seating for crew. (plus the 4 seats on the bridge makes room for 8)

G-Carrier added (8 tons - open to negotiation)

6.45 dtons of cargo (1dton per High Passenger)

 

I don't see any reason not to swap out those 2 fixed double mounts out for two triple turrets and adding a pulse laser in each.

Looks good, though. Aside from the part where you keep doubling+ the displacement for the G/Carrier. ;)

Wolfen said:

Looks good, though. Aside from the part where you keep doubling+ the displacement for the G/Carrier. ;)

And the G-Carrier negotiations begin with Wolfen failing his persuasion roll due to an excess of snark!

Seriously though... this thing needs to take all the toys. Grav Bikes, Air Raft, and anything else. Drop two staterooms, if you have to; we only need to worry about 4 VIPs... anyone less important can improvise.

Well the 4dtons set aside for "passenger cargo" is more than enough for the bikes. Could knock out a few staterooms for more space. That way we'd have plenty of room for an air raft. 

I'm a slave to symmetry so ... 4 staterooms is okay? For short trips we wouldn't need them. We could trim it down to 5 and have plenty of room for air/rafts and bikes. But .... symmetry! 

There is actually a good reason why we can't replace those two double fixed mounts with tripple turrets. A 90 dton smallcraft can mount a maximum of 4 ship scale weapons. So they've taken it to the limit with their two lasers and two sand casters. 

We could cut it back and have a single triple turret and a single weapon fixed/turret. Conceptually the tripple turret could be dorsal or ventrally mounted. I always figured a belly ventral turret would be good for ground assault as you can bring those weapons to bear on targets on the ground as you approach the LZ. A dorsal turret would probably be a better option if you want to defend against aerial attacks while you're landed. 

Or we could have a double fixed mount and a double turret, or two double turrets. As long as we don't go over the 4 weapon limit we're all good. 

EDIT: Fiddled with the sheet. 5 passengers with 5 dtons of cargo each. Air/raft and bikes included. Everything seems to fit nicely. 

Wolfen said:

I don't see any reason not to swap out those 2 fixed double mounts out for two triple turrets and adding a pulse laser in each.

Looks good, though. Aside from the part where you keep doubling+ the displacement for the G/Carrier. ;)

Well ... yeah ... they've always been 8 dtons. And the specs on the Type T patrol cruiser sets aside 10 dtons for their G-Carrier. I've just got this conceptual bug up my butt about an 18 seat  armoued vehicle taking up less volume than a 4 dton air/raft. 

Barring a GM fiat that says we don’t have to, I think we should say the “Traders & Gunboats” deck plans take precedent over the Vehicles Book on this issue, if only because it’s more consistent with historical sources.

Well ... just on gut, I'd rather set aside 10dtons and have plenty of room to move around than set aside only 2dtons and have to visualize a G-Carrier that's only 3m long. 

Posting this here because.

Idea
Original:

Does this image match the deck plans a little better than the first image?

Much... too bad the guns are “stowed”...

... do you think we could put the weapons in pop up turrets? Or is it better to have them out on display?

Ah, ok. I forgot about the limitation on the number of ship scale weapons. That makes sense then, though I'd still rather but them in a turret than leave them fixed. 

In terms of the displacement of the G/Carrier, understand that setting the G/Carrier's displacement does require us to go back and rework several other decisions and details. The Hangar has space for 100 dTons of small craft. 90 of those are taken up by the Assault Shuttle and one for the grav bikes. If you want to reserve 10 or even 8 dT for the G/Carrier, and then there's no room for the air/raft. Small craft stowed away in the Shuttle wouldn't count against the hangar's displacement, but in the Shuttle's, so we can fit it all in. We'll have to pull craft in and out of the shuttle to repair and maintain it. Or build a bigger hangar.

As per the G-Carrier taking up 8 dT, that includes all the space required to repair the G-Carrier as well. So long as we do the same treatment on the other items, we’ll be fine with repairing things in the Shuttle. Room for cleverness here in leaving only enough room to repair one thing at a time, by overlapping the repair zones.

My point about off-shuttle storage of the “toys” is that, when we want to use the shuttle for other things, we need a place to store the “toys”. Since we can repair on the Shuttle, it doesn’t need to be the full utility volume... it can just be the “stowed” volume. It doesn’t need to be bay space, either; adjacent cargo space will do, and have more overall utility.

We tend to rely on our guile. Concealing the turrets in pop-ups would benefit us greatly. Pop-ups aren’t exactly great at concealment, per se, particularly in flying a type of shuttle known for its weapons, but they are good as armor for when the guns aren’t any good just yet. Armor keeping guns safe until we can use them is good.

Just to build up on what Tech said, maybe the shuttle can be the official home for things like the grav bikes and the G-Carrier. If we ever need to leave those things behind maybe we could store them in the cargo area? If we need to take them out and repair them we could do it one at a time like Tech said. 

I love the idea of pop turrets - for no other reason than having nice lines on the ship that aren't broken up by weapons hanging out all over the place. Thing is, maybe we need weapons hanging out? It could provide a deterrent as well as a sense of security for our clients. That and pop turrets take up extra volume inside the ship. We have to toss something out to have a sexy looking ship. 

If we want that, we can leave them popped out on those occasions. If we don’t, we can tuck them in. That’s why pop turrets are great; options.

So to swap out two double fixed mounts with two double turrets is going to cost us an additional 1Mcr (not sure if we can get anything back form the existing double fixed mouts. They are 0.5mcr for both)

To make both of those turrets "Pop Up" will take another 4dtons and cost us 2Mcr. 

I'm all for it - mainly because it's not my money. The tonnage hurts us a bit though. 

Spin us another revision of the spreadsheet, including:

Reduction to 4 VIP Staterooms
Room for all the “toys” to park and one to be repaired
All the weapons changes, including the Pop-Up Mounts

After the VIP Cargo, how much Cargo does that leave us?

Actually, it turns out okay. With 3dtons for each pop turret and only 4 state rooms we end up with 5.45 dtons of cargo space. 

That’s after the VIP Cargo?

NO no sorry ... that includes VIP cargo. So if we set aside 4dtons for high passengers that'd come to 1.45 dtons left. 

May be worth keeping in mind that the VIP cargo space is only being used when we pick up and set down passengers. I figured the baggage would carted off to the Apollos hold once the ship docks. Or we could just keep it on board to reduce double handling? Depends on how we're going to disembark - Apollo landing at the starport or the shuttle ferrying passengers.  

We still have 10dtons of spare space in the Hanger area set aside in the Apollo. Plus the hanger has an extra 30dtons of space for repair workstations and such. So I think we're okay. If we need to fix the G-Carrier or the bikes we could just float them out into the hanger. 

We need to make sure we have enough “logistical room” between one thing and another. It’s also one thing if we grow beyond those constraints; it’s another thing completely if we fail to consider them in the first place.

So yeah, the shuttle needs to take all the “toys”, and be able to repair at least one at a time, and the VIP Cargo. The Colonial Cruiser is going to have to have enough space to offload all the “toys” and take the Shuttle’s Cargo without disrupting the regular Cargo, and without disrupting the Shuttle’s ability to take off and land... which probably means we can’t store anything in the Shuttle’s Docking Bay besides the Shuttle.

The Shuttle doesn't have its own docking bay. We have one big hangar. I've increased the size of the hangar, however, so it's all good.

Is there some important distinction between a docking bay and a hangar? ^_^;

Tenacious Techhunter said:

Is there some important distinction between a docking bay and a hangar? ^_^;

You tell me. You said,

... which probably means we can’t store anything in the Shuttle’s Docking Bay besides the Shuttle.

So I was trying to explain that that wasn't a concern.

So the way I figure it, we have a 130 dton hanger. That can hold up to 100dtons of craft and still have enough space to move around them and make repairs and such. 

The shuttle takes up only 90dtons of that space. So that leaves another 10dtons for the G-Carrier or other vehicle to be rolled out of the shuttle and fixed. 

I'm not really sure if we need extra room in the shuttle to fix things. But if we really need it the VIP cargo, if there is any, can go into the Apollo hanger bay. Or maybe it could be temporarily be stored in the "wiggle room" in the hanger bay. 

Either way we seem to have plenty of room to move around. 

The 8 dTons for the G-Carrier counts as enough room for repairs.

Just been fiddling with it a bit more. 

• Removed a dton of luxuries. We only need 1dton to take care of 4 passengers. 
• Added the Breaching Tube. 
• Removed 20 barrels of sand. So each sand caster now only has ten barrels of sand and five barrels of pebble. 
• Now back up to 4.45dtons of cargo that can be used for High Passengers. 

Shuttle 

if this shuttle is going to be picked up from a TL 14 world (?) there may be some high tech perks that we could have included in the design.

A TL 13 hull would cost 110% of the original price, but provide  one hull and structure point per 45dtons. So that's an extra point of each for only 190,000cr 

High tech drives could shave off a few tons, but that may cost millions for very little benefit. 

High tech weapons can have some groovy upgrades. A TL 12 beam laser can have up to three perks that can increase things like accuracy, damage and range modifiers. 

Well if Izek is flying it maybe any guns that are fixed and controlled by him could do with an accuracy bonus, hay even if there are turrets that others control, a bonus to hitting would be good.

Tenalphi is TL 14, Lunion and Strouden are each 13. I'd say the high tech hull sounds good, as well as upgrades for the lasers. The high tech drives just aren't worth it.

Given that we’re mostly using this in near-ground and close orbit applications, there’s probably no value in the range bonus. Double up on one of the others, maybe?

Alby, the Grav Bikes are 1 dTon in the same way that the G-Carrier is 32m^3... one is 3m^3 and the other is 10m^3. You probably need to give them more space.

... oh yeah. Will work on that when I get back from work. 

How about doing Accuracy (2 slots) and High Yield for the beam lasers?

nice.
Anything for the sand casters? Sounds weird but accuracy wouldn't be a bad thing for them either. Gunners using sandcasters still have to make an 8+ roll to make effective point defense against incoming lasers. High guard also says that you can use sandcasters as point defense against missiles as long as they are launched from medium range or greater. Plus you can also shoot things with a sand caster. So +1 accuracy for sand casters is actually handy. 

Oh and realizing that the bikes require a bit of extra volume hurts us a bit. The Imp bike takes up 1dton and the Darrian bike 3.5dtons (I guess the wings take up a lot of space?). We're going to have to kiss something goodbye by the looks of it. Easiest way to get that tonnage back is to go back to regular turrets instead of pop turrets. 

Very High Yield would work for the sandcasters, too... minimum 3 defense on a successful hit. XD
Variable Range would mean we could use them at close range, too, but at that point, we might as well eject some Grav Vehicles to harry them.
How much more expensive would it be to recover that volume with expensive drives?

Well the default ship has sP drives. 
Maneuver sP: 9dtons 18Mcr
P Plant sP:   6.3dtons 12Mcr

• For maneuver drives you can have a drive at TL+3 for 200% of the price. That has 60% the original mass. So for us that means 5.4 dtons and 36Mcr. 
• For Power Plants you can only get the reduction in mass at TL 15. Price for the drive is 200%. So for us that comes to 3.7 dtons and 24 Mcr. But we need to find a TL 15 yard for that. Unless you can do Higher TL mods at a shipyard somehow? I'm guessing that would require even more credits. 

So if we went for both, it would cost us an additional 30Mcr (not including cost of retrofitting) to gain an extra 6.2 dtons. 

If we just went for a high tech maneuver drive it would cost us an extra 18 Mcr to gain 3.6 dtons. 

All this is from p 53 and 58 of High Guard. 

So ... looking for tons to cull so I can give the High passengers back their 4dtons cargo space. 

How badly do we really need pop out turrets? I think they're groovy but I'm not sure if they're give up 4 dtons worth of groovy. 

If we have to keep them maybe we can reduce the cabin space? At the moment there are 4 on the "bridge" and cabin space is set aside for 4 additional crew members. So this ship can currently carry 8 crew and 4 high passengers (or 8 if they're all happy to double up). How many "crew members" are we expecting to haul around at one time?

And I was wondering about hi tech-ing the sandcasters. I was wondering about casters and missile launchers a while back. To upgrade them to "high yield" would you need to be upgrading the launcher or the ammo? For a laser it makes total sense to be upgrading the weapon itself, and maybe for a sandcaster (?), but it seems weird that a launcher can make a missile do more damage. 

1 gun 1 crew? hahaha, i would drop the pop ups, we want our trump mobile to look lethal on the out side and plush on the inside. (dont mess with our little girl, she has big teeth).

VIC e. said:

1 gun 1 crew? hahaha, i would drop the pop ups, we want our trump mobile to look lethal on the out side and plush on the inside. (dont mess with our little girl, she has big teeth).

I'm thinking that's a good idea. As much as I totally love the idea of clean, sleek lines on the ship, pop up turrets are really for ships that are pretending to be harmless. I'm not sure if pretending to be harmless is really our game. 

From Gevaudan's point of view, as an ethnic Vargr from the Extents, leave the guns visible.  It's a Charisma thing.  You humies wouldn't understand.  Comfy on the inside and snarling with Vargr paint job with clashing and offensive colors on the outside.  They look pretty to us Vargr!

What?

Heraldry can sit on the airlock door or a wing or fin.  If it's Vargr stylized then nobody will want to mess with it.  They might end up some Runt's chewtoy.

OH that love of sleek lines and such is purely OOC. If I was talking in character then Runt would be all for skulls and crossbones and weapons hanging out all over the place! Would even want to turn non weapon protrusions into things that looked like weapons!

Totally inappropriate for what we need though. 

I agree that the pop-ups aren't really that important. If that gets us where we need to be, great. If not, I'd rather miniaturize the M-Drive and/or drop a stateroom than cut down the cabin space.