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Help point a new asset creator in the right direction!

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Edited 1469944609
Doc
Marketplace Creator
Hey Roll20 family, it's great to be a part of the community! My names Chris, while most people call me Doc, and I just became an asset creator here. My main focus is going to be on tokens, maps and handouts, with the possibility of converting a couple of my games into modules (I'm getting into talks on that one right now). History (TL;DR version): I've been a GM/Home brewer about 20 years, artist/illustrator for 15, and game developer for 3. So besides the brief introduction, I'm really interested in picking your brains about what kind of assets you like, why, and toss a few ideas around (this is going to be a long post BTW). Round one: Maps. So for the first round, I want to talk about maps! I'm seeing a few kinds of maps on the asset store, and I'm curious if there's another type people want to see. I made some quick examples, and I'll list my personal pros and cons. Style 1: Top down. My pros: This style is really easy to navigate, and combat's pretty straight forward visually speaking. This view is pretty simple for breaking up into tiles, making them great for modular mixing and matching.  My cons:  I like walls, which I'm not getting here. Playing with depth is fairly simple, but height is another story (see what I did there:).   Style 2: Top down with perspective. My pros: You get some walls back for art, and it can look pretty cool on smaller closed off assets.  My cons:  So perspective here throws a couple of monkey wrenches in. The image above uses a different type of vanishing point, so modular maps get harder to build, practically requiring assets be rebuilt based on where they are on the perspective line. While this style can look cooler, and provide more surfaces for art, doing thing's like throwing perspective on the table might mess with some GM's combat mojo when it comes to unit placement.   Style 3: Top down semi-plano. My pros:  Most dungeons/interiors are built like this image, so in this case I get all my walls. Assets that can go on the walls look way cooler all of a sudden, and can be rotated freely for use on any wall. Most other assets can be built top down style, making them less confusing during combat. As an added bonus, tiling becomes easy again, and you can play with height effects a little better. My cons: Because this perspective has less to do with actual perception, and more to do with math and geometry, you end up having to lay stuff out differently. Check out the table. Where other maps allow you to squeeze by on the left, now you would have move that assets over, which really means you would have to make the whole area bigger. Style 4: Semi plano. My pros: I mostly like this style because it adds more dimension to floor assets, like the table. While I wouldn't go with this for dungeons, this would be my go to for over world stuff (Think old school Legend of Zelda, dungeons were very style 3, but the over world was like this). At the "top" of the game world, you would have to have a piece of art for the horizon to finish it off, which I think would look cool.   My cons: So this style lends itself to playing with height better, but gets kind of messy for anything below ground level. You would still have the same spacing issues. Probably the biggest con, designing you accents becomes a many folded process. wall items need to be built twice, once for north facing items, and then again for everything else. "Floor" assets are worse off, needing to be built four ways, as they couldn't rotate. So for my interests, I like styles 3 and 4. While 4 is horrendous work flow wise, it makes for some cool maps. 3 seems pretty standard, and is also a favorite of mine as far as looks go. My goal though, is to design stuff you in the community will like and use, so let me know what you want! Side scrolling maps, 3/4 view hex map tiles, whatever. Since I've suckered you into reading this far, what kind of art styles do you like? Water colored over world maps? Cell shaded dungeons?  Round two: tokens. So these are my thoughts: Quarter view seems to be the best choice for tokens when you take into consideration usability, and a better choice for the artist as far as "canvas" room. Top down looks to me like the quickest  design choice, but not the best  when it comes to making cool looking stuff. The POV is really limited here.  Profile tokens are pretty much jacked the second you try to rotate them. This especially sucks because these would probably be the coolest, most usable art. Bust and head shots seem like the go to for important NPC's, and possibly PC's. These seem like they fall apart the second you consider bigger, non humanoid monsters (I'm thinking dragon, tarrasque), because they wont depict scale right (Unless you go with a big a** border). Now all of this is my personal opinion, only thrown out there so you all get a sense for where my head is at. The important part is what do you like? Does it seem like one of these is becoming more standardized (I'm thinking quarter view), and messing with other formats is a waste of time? Do you want a little of everything? Or combinations of things? Am I completely wrong, and what   you really want is side profile characters in giant mekton? Round 3: My random thoughts about things that might be cool. So this is just me spit balling, with either questions, or things I think might be cool (some of which probably already exist): What's your favorite art style? Watercolor, acrylics, comic book style ink and color, anime, manga? While I'm not going to pretend to be great at all of these, I got a little range. What assets are you interested in? From what I can see maps and tokens are the jam, but what about handout stuff like magical item and weapon art? Icon sets for the GM layer? If the art was cool enough, packs for major NPC's you could slap your story on top of?   How often are you using decks? Do you thing there is an interesting thing that could be designed for that? Dice decks? Random story/encounter generators? When it comes to these assets, do you prefer to see only items based on preexisting stuff? Or would you be interested in new designs you could make your own? Same as above, but for things like stylized world maps, or possibly even landing pages for games? ARE YOU OLD ENOUGH TO LAUGH AT  THIS ! What's your thoughts on system neutral setting material (Though I think this might be better off in a modules conversation)? Would you like/care/want to see this stuff at least partially produced on twitch? Probably not stuff like the coloring phase and formatting ( unless you too owe a debt to the foul and ancient imp known as boredom ), but the stuff like conceptualizing, sketching, and critiquing? Don't get me wrong, I'm not done, I just think you may have had close to enough :) So schedule wise I will be dealing with some convention stuff until about the 8th, after which I will start getting my boogie on. Until then I will be roughing stuff out, setting up templates, and hopefully talking with you all here! Thanks for taking the time to read this, if you've made it this far, I have cleared with every Roll20 GM that you get to re-roll all ones next game you are the coolest person ever. "Every gamer knows the feud between Star Wars and Star Trek is pointless. In both universes, the one with the most pips wins"
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Edited 1469955776
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
On the maps: I think it's mostly personal preference, and you're going to have users that prefer reach over the others. #1 would be the easiest to draw dynamic lighting for, although I think #4 is my personal favorite. On the tokens: it depends a lot on the kind of game being played. A tactical game where facing is important, or one which uses dynamic lighting and the players have angled light sources is going to want the top-down or quarter view. (And as you say, quarter view gives you more room to pay as the artist.) If facing isn't important and angled light sources aren't being used, you can have the bust or head shot pogs. A theater of the mind game may want the profile image as a nice reference. The pogs and profile images can also be used for character avatars to show up in chat. Edit: also, to play nice with angled light sources, top-down or quarter view tokens should be facing up. A lot of stuff in the marketplace has tokens facing down, so the GM has to flip them vertically in order to have angled lights not come out of their butts. (To be fair to those artists, the tokens were made before angled light sources were a thing.)
1469957849
Doc
Marketplace Creator
Edit: also, to play nice with angled light sources, top-down or quarter view tokens should be facing up. Sorry this one threw me a little. Do you face up as in the character face should be up and visible as opposed to hunched/bent over? While I'm asking, how prevalent is dynamic lighting in the community? I definitely agree that most of this post is going to boil down to personal preference. I mostly just want to know if the community at large is open to different styles. There's already some great artists on here, and I'd like to try and go in a different direction with my assets. Hey so I see your sheet author, would you care if I PM you about a module project I may begin converting to this platform? I have some systems published/designed that I'm considering porting as modules. Anyways thanks for input Brian, any and all info helps!  
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Edited 1470019864
Lithl
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Doc said: Edit: also, to play nice with angled light sources, top-down or quarter view tokens should be facing up. Sorry this one threw me a little. Do you face up as in the character face should be up and visible as opposed to hunched/bent over? While I'm asking, how prevalent is dynamic lighting in the community? I mean the "front" of the token should be facing the top of the image. (The last image in your rotation examples for top-down and quarter view.) When using a limited angle light source, it comes out of the top of the token's image (and can then be rotated), so if you want the flashlight to be pointed in the same direction as the character's facing, the character has to be facing up when rotation=0. Dynamic lighting seems to be a pretty popular feature to use for those GMs that are subscribers, although obviously I don't have any actual numbers. IME the angled light sources isn't used as much as DL in general, but it's something to keep in mind of token design. Doc said: Hey so I see your sheet author, would you care if I PM you about a module project I may begin converting to this platform? I have some systems published/designed that I'm considering porting as modules. Anyways thanks for input Brian, any and all info helps!   Sure, you can send me a message. If I'm unable to help you or you change your mind, CoalPoweredPuppet has also don a bunch of sheets by-request, so that would be another person you could ask. I've done the sheets for Exalted 2e, Exalted 3e, Yogsquest (by request), Dresden Files RPG, Unknown Armies, Unknown Ponies, and Arkham Horror.
1469999058
The Aaron
Pro
API Scripter
If you can make it to GenCon this year you should attend: •  Roleplaying as Business: Making Artwork with Roll20 , Saturday @ 1:00 PM, 1 h There will be a bunch of market place artists working that panel, should be super great!
1470005891
Gabriel P.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Howdy.  I can't give you community feedback but as a marketplace creator if you have specific questions drop me a message and I'll be more than happy to answer if I can!
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Doc
Marketplace Creator
@AaronP, I would totally love too, but other obligations have me at DefCon this year. I just now realized they both happen the same weekend, which sucks.
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Doc
Marketplace Creator
@Gabriel P., I'm PM you, totally appreciate it!
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Doc
Marketplace Creator
@Brian, Thanks for clearing that up about the tokens, now I get what your saying. I'll PM you soon about the character sheet stuff.
1470019793
Gold
Forum Champion
Majority of maps so far are like Style 1, whether in the Marketplace or maps made with tiles or drawing tools in Roll20. I personally like Style 2 for maps, which reminds me of Zelda and is similar to  the perspective in Lands Of Belfum (an excellent Roll20 Module in the Marketplace). I find that one small downside of this perspective is the "bottom" walls, are either cut-off and deleted, or if they are appearing then the problem is that a Token should be able to move "behind" that bottom wall but they can't because of layers (the token would appear on-top-of the bottom wall, e.g. looks like they step beyond the wall). It's still very playable, just less action along the bottom-side of rooms (if the wall is illustrated) or the appearance of a missing wall or cross-section (if the wall there is illustrated as cut-away). I also like Style 4 fairly well, and it appears similar to another excellent Marketplace pack, the one called  Tower Descent . But, I've found a sort-of-consequence on this style is the map graphic itself is larger and takes up more room in a trade-off of less floor-squares. More pixels taken up by walls. Not necessarily bad, but it kind of changes the Zoom levels that Players/GM will typically need to use in order to get the overall view of your environment in game. For the tokens I like the Quarter View, personally.  Dungeon Buddies in the Marketplace are near to that perspective, maybe a little more tilted. Having the full standing profile is also pretty awesome, and can work great on  Isometric maps like those by Plexsoup in Marketplace. Cropped tokens like Head Shot and Bust Shot are not useful for me, but I know some games use those styles regularly.
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Badger
Pro
Marketplace Creator
I'll second what Gabe said! I can't offer community feedback, but if you have any creator specific questions, I'll be happy to do what to answer! For myself; I picked an art style and token style I knew I would like working on and could produce "relatively" quickly. You'll be making a lot of content; if you hate doing it, that's just another hurdle to jump. One question I can answer is the decks question; they aren't out yet! We don't even have specs for what they would be like. I've got a few in the works, but they are on the back burner til we get more info. The only other tips I can offer are; Figure out naming conventions now, and pick up Bulk Rename Utility for all your tagging needs.
1470050273
Doc
Marketplace Creator
@Gold, Thanks for the reply and examples! Dungeon buddies was cool as hell, and Belfum looked like it had a lot going on. I agree with your downfalls in regard to styles 2+, but like you, I want to forgive them because I like the style. For tokes, I'm thinking more and more about a combo of bust for the sheets, and 1/4 for the toke itself. My thoughts are it adds more to the workflow, but also makes it feel more complete. Who knows...     @Badger, I feel like I should be mad at you for not mentioning that utility before we met, lol! That thing is WAY useful! You may regret offering to answer questions though, I think I wrote a small essay to Gabriel! Seriously though, thanks for the offer, advice and tool tip. I haven't even really started yet and the community has been great so far.   
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Russ H.
Marketplace Creator
Welcome aboard Doc! I can offer open arms as Badger and Gabe have for questions and glad to see you here!  Oh, and I am old enough to appreciate the gazebo joke from your link. hahaha - great list!  As Badger mentioned, go with a style that you'll enjoy playing if you were a player. That always shines through. There is so much variety to choose from on Roll20's market, it is really up to you and what you think people will enjoy. We are very lucky to have such a diverse group contributing here. 
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Doc
Marketplace Creator
@Russ, Thanks man that's really cool of you! And to all the artists so far, you all have some great stuff in the marketplace! I spent some time looking through everything, and you are all total pros. If it wasn't for how cool you've been I'd really be sweating (more than I am). I look forward to being on the team :) 
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Badger
Pro
Marketplace Creator
You coming to Gencon, Doc?
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Doc
Marketplace Creator
Unfortunately no, I have a prior engagement at DefCon. I did a stupid amount of art for them this year (I'll shoot you a couple), so they owe me a lot of beer :)