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Moderating Experience Awards & Wealth

1483490863

Edited 1485667896
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
To keep character's advancing at a pace that is comfortable for all DMs, here is a thread dedicated to helping maintain game balance. Here are some guidelines for awarding experience: Attendance: Remember that experience is rewarded to the player as he/she experiences playing their character; not the character itself. A player must be present to earn experience points. Threshold: Do not confuse threshold value with experience value. The PCs do not get awarded the threshold value of an encounter. They receive the sum of each individual monster's experience value. Participants: Be sure to divide the total experience earned by every participant involved in the combat. This includes any NPCs that may be assisting in the combat or taking significant amounts of damage that would otherwise be dealt to the PCs. These NPCs need to be included when you divide experience among the group even though they are not actually earning experience. In some cases such as a town invasion, NPCs will be worth less than the PCs. For example, four CR 1/4 commoners are only equivalent to one 1st level PC. In cases like this, you can treat a group of NPCs as one participant.  Favorable/Unfavorable Conditions: Sometimes conditions may allow for PCs to overcome a creature that would be too tough for them or make a creature that would normally be easy a lot stronger. Maybe they (or the monster) have access to a catapult, barrels filled with gun powder, a powerful artifact, etc... Maybe the environment is set up in such a way that gives favor to one side or another. In either case, the PCs should not receive more or less experience than what is reasonable. Estimate your encounter difficulty from Easy to Deadly and use the experience of monsters that would make up that encounter difficulty to find out what is a reasonable amount of experience to award. Here is a table that shows the maximum amount of experience that would be a reasonable amount to award for one encounter depending on the party level and how many PCs are involved: Estimated Experience for One Encounter Party Level 3 PCs 4 PCs 5 PCs 6 PCs 1st 100 XP each 75 XP each 60 XP each 50 XP each 2nd 183 XP each 175 XP each 140 XP each 158 XP each 3rd 233 XP each 300 XP each 240 XP each 200 XP each 4th 600 XP each 450 XP each 360 XP each 300 XP each 5th 600 XP each 725 XP each 720 XP each 675 XP each Estimating Party Level: To estimate a party level, add up the medium threshold of all of the PCs in the party. Divide the result by 4 then look for the closest medium number on the threshold table to get the estimated party level. Maintaining Well-Balance Challenges: Here is a tool that my brother and I developed to help either scale/create an encounter or even an entire adventure. Enjoy!  Ultimate Encounter Calculator Link Average Starting Wealth Per Level: Character Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Equipment, Earned Gold, & Gems 75 200 270 500 760 Earned Magic Items 0 600 950 2000 3300 TOTAL NET WORTH 75 800 1220 2500 4060 Awarding Hoard Treasures:  The DMG gives the standard for how many hoard treasures should be awarded to a group (last paragraph on page 133 of the DMG). Here is a calculated breakdown of that. Hoard 0-4:  Average of 2,300 gp value per roll. 2 rolls awarded from 1st-2nd level + 5 rolls awarded from 3rd-4th level = 7 total Substituting Magic Items for Gold & Vice Versa: In some adventures, you may decide that there should more or less magic items based on the monsters that own the lair. For example, a wizard lab would probably have more magic items while a goblin's lair would have less. After rolling the Hoard Treasure coins, you can reduce the amount of gold as shown below to make a roll on one of the Magic Item tables. Alternatively, you can replace a roll on a Magic Item table with an additional amount of coins as shown. These are the average values of one roll on a magic item table. Magic Item Table A = 155 gp Magic Item Table B = 1,900 gp Magic Item Table C = 1,400 gp Magic Item Table F = 6,750 gp Magic Item Table G = 21,500 gp
I have a somewhat related question: what about wealth/monetary reward? What is a fair amount of gold/magical items to award a party? I assume you wouldn't want to give a rare magical item to a group of first level characters, but what about an uncommon item, or characters at a higher level?
1483765731
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Page 38 of the DMG covers wealth by level. However, like many things in 5e, it lacks detail and only gives a very broad estimate. A campaign like ours probably should have a more detailed standard.  As a DM, I always look at the effective character level (ECL) of a character after equipped. So, a 5th level fighter might actually function as a higher level depending on what magic items it has. When the items begin to add to the character's ECL, then a game balance issue occurs. Likewise (but less common), a character that is poorly equipped may function at a lower level. There were easy tables for this in 3.5 edition, but unfortunately no such thing has yet been developed for 5e.  So it is up to us DMs to be sure that we maintain balance in this as best as possible for the time being. With there being no standard set for when a Hoard treasure can be awarded, this can prove to be a very tricky and tedious task. This is one of the reasons I developed the crafting tables as a merger from 3.5 into 5e standards. We at least can find a value of an object so we know if it is reasonable.  I have been thinking about developing something based on a merger of 3.5 to 5e that would be simple and detailed, but this project is on the back burner until I have the time to do all of the tricky algorithms necessary to make it happen.
Awesome! Thank you for the response. I asked mainly because I usually run high magic campaigns and tend to (or rather, try to) give out loads of magical or strange items. I will attempt to limit my imagination in that regard to better suit this game. 
1483822142
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
GunnarB said: Awesome! Thank you for the response. I asked mainly because I usually run high magic campaigns and tend to (or rather, try to) give out loads of magical or strange items. I will attempt to limit my imagination in that regard to better suit this game.  I understand. I am used to the same thing. It has been quite an adjustment for me as well. Remember this though...  In 1489 DR, the Spellplague has only recently passed. In that time, almost all of magic was destroyed for about 150 years. Because of this, most magic items that can be found or bought have been created in the past decade. This is the reason that things are so rare now. Even the artifact that I used in my Undermountain campaign, The Horned Ring, has been fractured and therefore is unstable and not as powerful as it originally was.  Keeping this in mind as you run things can help moderate things. Using the treasure tables in the DMG should emulate this effectively.
1484280432
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
I updated the title of this thread after today's conversation. There is need to moderate character wealth and have a table that lets us know if a character's effective level is higher when accumulating more wealth than average. I will be working on this when I have time. In the meantime, I could use everyone's help.  If any of you have the time, I would like for you to post your character's level and net worth (sum of all equipment and treasure). This will give me some things to compare to as I crunch the numbers from the treasure tables.
1484284748

Edited 1484284767
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Using the number of hoard treasures that should be given out according to the DMG, and using the average value of a hoard ( Average Hoard Treasure Values & Hoard Treasure Roller ) divided by 4 PCs, I was able to begin calculating the average amount of treasure a PC should have when beginning each level (see the OP). There will be some variance because of things like a 3% chance of getting to roll a +2 weapon on table G, which is valued over 9,000 gp. But it should otherwise give us an idea as to what we should expect for most from 1st - 5th level. I will work on 5th-10th level at a later time. 
1484287586
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Ugh... a note to everyone and reminder to myself. The above calculations do not include magic items that might be rolled on the Hoard table. I will have to update it to reflect that.
Mark S. said: [snip] If any of you have the time, I would like for you to post your character's level and net worth (sum of all equipment and treasure). This will give me some things to compare to as I crunch the numbers from the treasure tables. Gorrac - Lvl 4 - 675.44 gp, Javelin of Lightning, Runestone of Cure Wounds (1x/day) Tanithal - Lvl 4 - 324.76 gp, 3 gems worth 150 gp total, Runestone of Cure Wounds (1x/day)
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Edited 1484303163
Flent - lvl 4 - 343.43 gp, spell orb (2 spell slots/day), goggles of night. (Beo - Breastplate armor) Maxwell??? - lvl 4 - .5 gp, cloak of elvenkind, rune of cure wounds (1/day) Theren - lvl 4 - 26.53 gp, bracers of defense, wand of magic missile, ring of inflict wounds (1/day) Tiberious - lvl 4 - 1461.75 gp Kon - lvl 2- 10 gp
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Edited 1484310694
Tyrael 3- ???GP Ring of luck (get the halfling luck bonus) Slane 5- (sold magic item recieved in quest) 4000 gp to buy golves of dex Roy 5- 3825 +1 plate masterwork, +1 shield masterwork Lasse 5- 2000 +1 studded leather masterwork None of the masterworked stuff has anything cool on it yet. Also all these character have almost no gold left
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Edited 1484325254
Only character I have with Magic items is Victor. Atton has masterwork Armor. I have sold and downgraded some of Victor's gear like the +1 shield and a magic sword he didn't use.  Victor has: +1 Adamantine Half Plate +1 sword with 3 charges of lighting Magic gem that grants advantage from being charmed and imposes disadvantage on incite checks made on Victor. (placed in a ring) Pearl of Power from the DMG that restores one spell slot.  3 charge per day Cure Wounds Rune 2675 gp Atton has 1411 gp plus he has 4 x 50 gp gems planning on selling to get mithril armor.   
1484328420
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Awesome! Thanks everyone! Going to be working on finding the additional amounts with magic items included. All of these that you all added will help me see how the math is measuring up.
1484378759

Edited 1484378875
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
OK... so, as you will see in the OP I have all of the magic item tables included in a Hoard 0-4 calculated except for table G. After finishing the exhausting table F, I find out there are 87 items to value on table G to get an average value. Ugh... I need a break. lol I will get back to it when I can, but I hope you all like the detail of how the tables and numbers are coming along. We will have an efficient economy in our campaign yet! lol
Thanks for all your work on this.
Thank you I can do data input as well just let me know! If you have some "homework" for us we are here 4 u!
1484431921
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Thanks guys. This is something I have been wanting to do for quite some time now. I feel like having a solid economy for a campaign is important.  Daniel, Help to figure out the other tables would be great as they take quite a bit of work. Here is a breakdown of how I am doing things... Each Magic Item Table: A: % chance of item B: Item's Value C: Value multiplied by % chance Example below 15 5,000 75,000 You complete the table above with each item. Column A should total 100 when you are done. To find the average value you divide the sum of column C by 100.  Column B values are either found by using the Magic Item list I have composed in the Services folder in the campaign journal, 3.5 SRD/Pathfinder SRD, or using the  Creating Magic Items  table.  I am going to take on Magic Item Table G since it is the last needed for Hoard Treasure 0-4. If anyone wants to take on either D or H, that would set us up for Hoard Treasure 5-10.  I recommend using Excel spreadsheet. PM me and I will give you a Dropbox link to share files.
1485667834
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
OK guys... sorry it took awhile to finish up but I needed a break before tackling the average value of Magic Item G. I had a helper so it ended up not being so bad.  You will now see in the OP the average net worth a character should have when starting each level from 1st - 5th. You will also see the average value of a roll on Treasure tables A, B, C, F, and G (all of those included in Hoard 0-4). There is also a breakdown of how many Hoard 0-4 Treasures should be awarded based on the DMG and the average value of each roll on that table before divided among the PCs. Hope this all helps. I am going to take a break before dealing with the Hoard 5-10 table. 
1485668472

Edited 1485668522
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
P.S. For the time being, I would take the average of the PCs character level and wealth level to calculate its effective character level. For example, if you have a 2nd level PC that has a net worth of 2,600 gp (4th level is 2,500-4,059), I would treat that PC as a 3rd level PC for calculating threshold. Otherwise you will probably deal with the frustration of investing a lot of time to create an interesting and challenging adventure that will just not be as exciting as you intended. Some of the most fun and memorable moments are when the group is pushed to their limits.
1489025880
Mark S.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
My wife recently brought something to my attention. It would seem that there is a common mistake in 5th edition when awarding experience. She was making the same mistake early on.  Be sure that you are NOT awarding the encounter threshold value, but the actual total of the monsters added up instead. For example, a goblin is worth 50 experience each. Four creaures have an encounter threshold of x 2, so four goblins have an encounter threshold of 400. However, four goblins are still only worth 200 exp to be divided among the PCs (50 exp each). Some of the experience awards recorded in the log still appear to be very high. 
1492887401
Mark S.
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Marketplace Creator
Closing this thread. It will remain "sticky" until the content has been moved to the new location.