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[Advanced 2nd Edition (simple sheet)] Looking for community feedback on adding and possibly integrating templates to the sheet!

1486627568

Edited 1486692352
Elena S.
Sheet Author
I have been working on some upgrades to the Advanced 2nd Edition (simple sheet) for old school AD&D. My primary focus has been on creating roll templates. I've created 4 new templates, and am looking to have them added to the official character sheet so anyone who is using the sheet can have access to more than just the roll20 default template. To see the instructions on how these templates are designed to be used head on over to the Template Guide Thread ! Here are some sample pictures of the templates I've designed (sorry about the different zoom levels) : I intend to submit all of these templates to be added to the sheet in the next week or two so that they will be available for those who wish to use them, just got to go over the code a bit more to make sure it's as clean and efficient as possible. My question for the community at large is whether or not you would like to have these templates integrated into the various roll buttons on the sheet. It can be done without changing any of the existing sheet attributes. I would actually add several new ones, only rearranging where a few of the current attributes are displayed. The changes to the sheet itself would be minimal, but doing this could drastically change how you use the sheet and some may prefer to keep things how they are for their campaigns. None of what I propose to change would affect any of the macros you may already have built, in fact the 2Edefault template is structured so that if you simply change the template name in any macro using the standard 'default' template to 2Edefault, it would display all of the same information only using the new template for styling purposes. If you would like the template to display descriptive text using the new template properties, you would then simply add "desc=", "desc1=", or "desc2=" to the beginning of those property calls in the macro. My big question in all of this is whether the majority of people in the community would prefer to have the templates integrated into the sheet roll buttons on the character sheet, or if I should look to have a template integrated version of the character sheet added as a separate option to the sheet library. That would allow GM's to change to the new version pretty much seamlessly since all of the attributes that exist on the current sheet would be unchanged, and those who don't want the integration could keep their character sheets exactly as they currently are but with the option to write their own macros using the new templates. Please feel free to weigh in and let me know your preferences! *edit* added link to template guide thread
Elena S, I like the idea and I'm glad to meet someone working in the 2nd ed AD&D game.  I'm also **really** glad you managed to do this in a way that will not mess up my macros, because I have put a lot of work into custom macros. I've just used the default template, which is adequate, but I like your new ones.  It would be great to have some of mine display in more interesting, organized ways.
1486649790

Edited 1486649873
Elena S.
Sheet Author
Yeah, that was the primary goal! Plus I just wanted something a bit prettier, rofl. I have been going through the code and the only section of the sheet with built in rolls where integrating the new templates would actually call for changes to be made to the sheet itself is to the weapons table. With the template handling both attack rolls and damage for both size groups there wouldn't be a need for the additional roll buttons for S/M damage and L+ damage. I'm also looking at removing the ThAC0 column since that never actually changes with different weapons, only the modifiers do. I would move the ThAC0 attribute field to just above the weapons chart itself so it's still visible when you're looking at your weapons. Removing those three items would give me the space to add two new attributes for critical hits, and fumbles. That would allow the sheet roll macro to pull from those attributes and display Bonus Damage from a critical hit automatically (based on whatever crit rules the DM is using). The fumble field could be left blank, or even tied to a rollable table for random fumble results. Again, this would allow DM's to set up whatever they like in that regard. Its the best option as far as I can figure, since it allows for house rules without forcing anything on the DM if they don't use any of the various optional crit and fumble rules. If those fields are left blank, no additional information would be displayed.
1486655966
Elena S.
Sheet Author
After some testing with my custom sheet, I'm not sure I'm going to plan on adding the Critical Hit and Fumble attribute fields to the standard weapons table. The template will still have the functionality to display extra crit/fumble info, but I think I might leave that for custom Macros/Abilities. I can't seem to figure out how to make having the integrated template be flexible enough to accommodate the variety of Crit/Fumble optional rules without having to essentially write mini-macros in those attribute fields. Anyhow, this is How I would set up the revised Weapons Chart, Possibly moving the ThAC0 field into the header row just above the Attack buttons, though that might throw the table alignment off.
1486657533
The AD&D 2E sheet is long overdue for some templates.  These look really good Elena! +1
1486661281

Edited 1486661836
Gold
Forum Champion
May I join a TEST game that has your version of the sheet? I appreciate what you're going for here, and the work that's gone into it.   However, I have some concerns. I haven't seen much demonstrated in this thread so far that I would want to appear in my 2E games. Would the good-ol' purple Default Template still continue to work, if your update was added?  I understand Elena said that old macros would continue to function, and that macros would only use the new Template if the macro is changed to call the new template.  I'm just not 100% clear on whether the good-old purple default Template would continue to work normally all the time. All the time, from the start of a new game, to anytime that a sheet roll is clicked, to anytime that an old or new macro is created. The answer to this question --- and being able to see proof in a test game --- would affect my response. Your color choices are extremely bright-saturated. More tame colors would be easier on the eyes. Referring to the bright 'iphone notification' red, the glaring bright yellow, and the highlighter-bright green. For that reason alone I wouldn't want my players to use them ever. Too bright to be readable, and too distracting. I would prefer complimentary colors with the muted level of saturation and brightness that is found in Default Template (purple) and in emotes (orange). Or even some of the 2E rulebook and logo colors (cobalt blue, or black). We use the 2E Simple sheet, so on that basis alone I would ask for this to be a new Template-Integrated sheet rather than a replacement/upgrade affecting all users of the existing 2E simple sheet. Critical Hits and Fumbles are not a part of default/basic 2nd Edition rules, just a common house rule.  So that element should not be added on the 2E Simple sheet. I understand what Elena said "it allows for house rules without forcing anything on the DM if they don't use any of the various optional crit and fumble rules. If those fields are left blank, no additional information would be displayed." but the issue is, if we place these new Crit attributes as fields on the Character Sheet then Players can fill it in themselves, affecting the damage rolls incorrectly; or New Players would constantly ask the DM "What page of the rule book do I find my critical hits and fumbles so that I can fill in this blank section of my character sheet?".  At that point it wouldn't be a SIMPLE 2E sheet, it would be reducing the simplicity and adding complexity that isn't found in the game rules / Player's Handbook. Thanks for your work on this. Thanks in advance for considering my response.
1486667776
Elena S.
Sheet Author
Gold said: May I join a TEST game that has your version of the sheet? I appreciate what you're going for here, and the work that's gone into it.   However, I have some concerns. I haven't seen much demonstrated in this thread so far that I would want to appear in my 2E games. Would the good-ol' purple Default Template still continue to work, if your update was added?  I understand Elena said that old macros would continue to function, and that macros would only use the new Template if the macro is changed to call the new template.  I'm just not 100% clear on whether the good-old purple default Template would continue to work normally all the time. All the time, from the start of a new game, to anytime that a sheet roll is clicked, to anytime that an old or new macro is created. The answer to this question --- and being able to see proof in a test game --- would affect my response. Your color choices are extremely bright-saturated. More tame colors would be easier on the eyes. Referring to the bright 'iphone notification' red, the glaring bright yellow, and the highlighter-bright green. For that reason alone I wouldn't want my players to use them ever. Too bright to be readable, and too distracting. I would prefer complimentary colors with the muted level of saturation and brightness that is found in Default Template (purple) and in emotes (orange). Or even some of the 2E rulebook and logo colors (cobalt blue, or black). We use the 2E Simple sheet, so on that basis alone I would ask for this to be a new Template-Integrated sheet rather than a replacement/upgrade affecting all users of the existing 2E simple sheet. Critical Hits and Fumbles are not a part of default/basic 2nd Edition rules, just a common house rule.  So that element should not be added on the 2E Simple sheet. I understand what Elena said "it allows for house rules without forcing anything on the DM if they don't use any of the various optional crit and fumble rules. If those fields are left blank, no additional information would be displayed." but the issue is, if we place these new Crit attributes as fields on the Character Sheet then Players can fill it in themselves, affecting the damage rolls incorrectly; or New Players would constantly ask the DM "What page of the rule book do I find my critical hits and fumbles so that I can fill in this blank section of my character sheet?".  At that point it wouldn't be a SIMPLE 2E sheet, it would be reducing the simplicity and adding complexity that isn't found in the game rules / Player's Handbook. Thanks for your work on this. Thanks in advance for considering my response. Yes, the standard default template is always available as that is a basic function built into roll20. If you don't want to use the new templates for your custom macros that would in no way be forced on you. I could certainly tweak the colors and tone down the brightness fairly easily, This is all very much in a development stage, which is why I'm asking for feedback. Constructive criticism is more than welcome. As for adding the crit and fumble attribute fields to the weapons table, I already mentioned in an earlier post that I don't see how that could be integrated without causing more problems than it's worth and would not be implementing it whether this becomes an upgrade to the existing sheet or a completely new sheet. And yes I can certainly send you an invite to check it out for yourself. In fact... Invite sent! Happy Gaming
1486686881
Elena S.
Sheet Author
New images of proposed templates, glare factor reduced by several orders of magnitude! Questions, comments?
1486688158
Gold
Forum Champion
The new colors are way better. Good job! Thank you for addressing that.
1486691975
Elena S.
Sheet Author
Not a problem at all. Details like that are exactly why I posted requesting community input. The goal after all is to improve everyone's gaming experience. Not beat them over the head with how I do things. Heck, my players that have looked at the new color scheme even said it's a big improvement. So, Thank You! Heck, I use a custom sheet in my campaign, and that isn't going to change. I've got bunches of little modifications to the character sheet based on my home-brew campaign setting, and lots of those would break stuff for other DM's. I'm just looking to share some of what I've made that anyone can use if they choose to. That and I'm kinda the type that likes color coding and stuff, which is actually what prompted me to start trying to make templates to begin with. Then I figured out some of the cool functionality available with templates and went to town, and thought "Hey, others might like to use these too." And here we are.
I like the new colors -- good suggestion, Gold.  How hard is it to change colors?  My group does not use the attack tables in the sheet because they are cumbersome. I added some macros that roll the attack and both damage categories, but I like your display templates much better than the default.  I have a lot of macros, all in the A&A sections of sheets, and would hate to lose them due to an update. As I understand it, it's too late for me to choose "custom" as the sheet type for my game?
1486748842

Edited 1486749315
Elena S.
Sheet Author
No, these templates are not being integrated into sheet rolls at this time, I'm merely adding the capability to use them. As a pro subscriber, you always have the option to use the custom sheet option. Then it's simply a matter of importing the html and CSS of the sheet you want to customize into your game and make the changes you want. Also, having additional templates available will not cause any existing macros calling the default template to cease working properly. I use the default template in a 5e game with zero issues.
1486773283

Edited 1486773537
Looks great! How do you compare the save roll vs the save target in your macro above?
1486777862
Elena S.
Sheet Author
OldSchoolChris said: Looks great! How do you compare the save roll vs the save target in your macro above? The template itself actually does the logical comparison using some of the special helper functions available to rolltemplates.
Elena, do you mean I can have more than one character sheet type in a game? If that's the case, I would import *custom* on top of the 2e sheet I've got now, but I don't think that's the case. I've been watching the Roll20 Master Series video on creating custom generators, and I like the 5e template, "npcaction", that he's got for displaying his results (see timestamp 13:20 to 13:40 in the youtube video to see what I mean).  Can you do one like that? It's similar to the second one you've pictured above, except it doesn't show the whole table, just the rolled result.
1486780860
Elena S.
Sheet Author
Nono!. Not saying you can use more than one sheet at the same time. Just that since you're a pro subscriber you have the ability to use a custom character sheet, and that there are many options for such which you can find on github with a bit of digging, and then using the sheet code you pull down as a base and customize it as you see fit. I actually haven't watched any of those videos, might have to take a gander. I used to do a bit of web design some years ago, so I've got a decent base for digging into the html and css. It's kind of fun to knock the rust off those skills, and put them to some use again.
I figured out how to upload an image.  You see the first use, with the embedded macro calls, and then the results of each macro call, with the table heading and just the result of the roll made on that table.  I see how to write the macro, but I have no experience with templates, so I don't know what's involved or what's possible.
1486784319

Edited 1486785858
Elena S.
Sheet Author
Ahh, yeah. I actually made the macro for Halfling Bloodlines before I'd learned how to use rollable tables and never switched it over to that format since it's not a macro that gets used that often. Edit: As for what's possible with templates... lots if you dig into the html and css in order to set them up on the character sheet. Which requires either having a pro account and using the Custom sheet option then editing the sheet code to add in the templates, or writing up all the code and submitting it to be added to a particular character sheet in the sheet library through git-hub. There are several special "helper-functions" available for use when creating templates, including ones for logical comparisons, hiding or showing different parts of the template based on qualifying elements, checking if a roll is a critical success or failure, or even if it's both as may be the case when rolling multiple dice.
Would I be able to use these on a custom sheet I made myself (if I were a Pro user)?
1487381083
Elena S.
Sheet Author
you can get the code for them from the github repository certainly