Dungeons and Dragons Next

I have only played a few games with the system through the playtesting phase, but I have to say I am really, really excited to see that it's finally releasing later this year. Anyone else excited, or you old curmudgeons who don't want anything new and awesome and just want the young people to get off your lawn? /s lol Seriously though, what are your thoughts?

The player side of things in D&D Next is ok. I much prefer the monster design and traps from D&D 4e though.

I've read the latest packets and have played it a bit. It's nothing really new and a lot of stuff that's "old" for what appears to be no particularly good reason. (Nostalgia can take a hike for all I care.) Considering the state of the indie games market and the really interesting mechanics they've come up with in many of those games, I see nothing too exciting in Next. As HoneyBadger says, the monster design and traps in 4e are better (though I don't really like to compare editions side by side as they are different games) with the Next monsters/traps seeming a bit arbitrary in the balance department. There's been complaints from some corners that the critical hits need work because as written they will lead to everyone maxing out their crit chances and effects. As Mike Mearls has lamented such design decisions in 4e, perhaps that will change. I hold out hopes that the final product will be a solid game, especially since I intend to try and get some stuff published when it's out. 4e is fantastic for the kind of game experience it seeks to produce. I would wish they get a handle on (and be clear about) what table experience Next is meant to be and design the mechanics accordingly. (The actual play podcasts by the designers make me cry. Joseph M on Roll20 ran our game and with only 6 months as a DM blew them out of the water which was awesome.) I would also hope they'll design the game in a very DM-friendly way as other fantasy games have done so the "OMG it's so much work to be a DM" thing can just go away. So as not to sound too critical, I do like the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic because rolling twice is fun. I just hope that they make the times you get it concrete and not subject to DM whim. I don't like games that rely on a lot of gaming the DM. Otherwise, I'm onboard with that mechanic. I wonder what sort of digital support it'll get, too. I really dig 4e's DDI, especially the Compendium and Character Builder.

Oh the character builder would be very nice to have also. If they do digital support for it, hopefully they'll actually give better offers for people to actually look at it to see if a DDI subscription is worth it for them instead of just straight up giving money first hearing only gigantic "YES DO IT NOW" or "Totally crap, avoid at all costs" responses. I haven't really seen into the mechanics much though. I remember going through the first play test packet and seeing a lot of hope for it but lost my group after scheduling and a move. Now that I've had time to get back into it, it's hard for me to sort out because I missed on a lot of it, and all I see is the generic "This will be awesome" and "Life is over for me if you do this" type responses.

With the current state of, well everything, I cannot see how they will not have a DDI aspect. I never anticipated that it would be adopted as it is by many, but for a lot of the people I know it is essential. I agree that we cannot compare editions side by side as they seek to do different things., One issue with DDN, which is something that caused many of my friends to abandon it early, is that it seems to be trying to do everything and not have it's own identity. As you said, if it's just a nostalgia sake then what's the point... and if it's just 13th Age... then buy that. lol However, no matter how the indie market is there is something to be said for branding. If I put up on my FB page that I am looking for Game X players I won't get any responses. If I say I want DnD players I will. I then need to sell them on editions, but whatever. It's interesting that you mention traps and such as being better in 4e. I've been running it since release and funny enough i've just ever been good at integrating traps and such beyond 3.5 way. which is to say I put them in, they get disabled or they go off and attack they players defenses. I also do not use the DM guide for creating encounters. I am a big fan of continuity... so kobolds will have kobold warriors, kobold shamans, maybe whatever animal that they run with in that world. Not 3 kobold minions, 2 necromancers, 1 umber hulk and 4 cavern octopi... or whatever it is. I totally get the reasoning behind the modular encounter creation, I just don't use it. As a DM I love being in control! I love creating, editing and modding. I tend to change a lot as we move around. The same has been true in my 4e game. For me with next I just felt it was a great meeting behind the introduction to tabletop that is 4e and the character building that is 3.5, with some nostalgia thrown in.

DDI is certainly essential for the games I like to run and a great tool for improvisation. One would also think it must also be a decent revenue stream - they've gotten more money out of me through subs than books, I'm sure. It's heartening to hear you agree that comparing editions is not a gainful exercise. Many lives might have been saved during the Edition Wars with such enlightened views. I'll give you that the early packets were all over the place, but recent ones are a bit more refined though I'd be fool to say what exactly they're going for. That's my biggest concern, that even the designers don't know what they want. I watched their actual play podcasts and thought it was terrible. If that were a marketing promo, I would never be inclined to buy the game. It was boring, lacked action, and was full of blocking. No mechanics really stuck out as cool. Much as I don't care for Dragon Age, at least they have a gimmick like Stunt Dice. Next's got Ad/Disad which I like but it could do with something better I think, something big that befits the brand. In 4e, I thought they failed in conveying to their customers exactly what it was meant to do, the cinematic and improvisational game experience it was trying to create. Many jumped on it with a 3.X mindset and went "Wha?" then stuck with 3.X or migrated to PF. If Next is a loser in an increasingly diluted market, I don't see why Hasbro would keep the brand, despite its known status. In any case, I think Wizards should consider offering support for all editions of the game going forward in recognition of their divided customer base. There's gotta be a couple of bucks to be made there. Just market them on he basis of what each edition is good at delivering and sell them to new generations of fans. Somewhat off-topic, but 4e traps are meant to be integrated with skill challenges and combats, not just sat lonely in a hallway or doorknob waiting to be sprung by some hapless boob who forgot his 10' pole as in previous editions. Good stuff for another thread. If you start it, I'll participate.

I read your stuff on traps in another thread, and really enjoyed it. I think looking at them as skill challenges is a good semantic move that helps them be more dungeon dressing and more dynamic. I have faith with DDN because from the first mess of a packet, and even getting the packet was a hassle, to the end there was great progress. They made a lot of changes base don feedback. Given we have at least 6 months (I imagine) before seeing it on shelves I do think they will nial down some of the specifics we still have concerns over. 4e is not dead, imo. Though it seems unlikely to get more official support,, I don't know that it needs it. For me it does what it needs to - it works as it stands, and doesn't need a lot of supplements or add ons. I'm not one who believes 3.5, and PF, are the culmination of tabletop rpg's. I just know so many people who read one or two things about 4e and just gave it up. "What??? What do you mean fighters can heal!? That's it, I;m outta here!" seems to be relatively common. I also know people that have a rely problem with the terms of 'powers' and that characters should not be 'superheroes'. Personally I don't see what's so different from a lvl1 daily power that does 1w damage versus a standard BaB attack, or Thaco attack, but whatever. I think Next will be a good blend to bring those familiar with 4e in line with those who can't/won't let 3.5 or older editions go. I hope at least. lol

"or you old curmudgeons who don't want anything new and awesome and just want the young people to get off your lawn?" Generally. New? yeah. Awesome? Not hardly. 2e serves me well enough. I did the playtest for months, and finally just saw it was not gonna be what they said it was. Burned multiple times, no more wotc for me.

Just out of curiosity what, in your opinion, did they say it was going to be? I have zero problem with you not liking what they were doing, but what was it you didn't like? Mechanics? Feats? AC? Class balance or progression? I don't doubt that in our group we will end up house ruling stuff - we do in every game. Right now, with it being so incomplete I am not sure what I would want to change though.

I played with DDN for a while also but it just was doing what I already have so why should I learn a new system just not to play. My system of choice does everything I want and will be cost free. DDN will cost you once it is published. There just is not enough incentive for me to spend time with it.

"If you want to play D&D , you need to find people to play with. Would the game even survive if every five or six years it just splinters into smaller and smaller groups? We’re trying to bring everyone together." - Mike Mearls, Senior Manager, D&D Research and Development. "We are entering into this design with a real sense of modularity, letting people pick and choose what elements of D&D to use." Except people already do that. Especially the older crowd that they wish to Bring back into the fold. Except there was no outside the fold, there was the bus that 2nd and 3.5 got tossed under. WOTC forums was a nightmare of sockpuppets and vitriol and attacks against yeah "Curmudgeons." I never got called Greybeard and fatbeard as an old school DM anywhere except on Wotc forums for not seeing the beauty, and glory that was to be 4th edition, where everyone was equal, where all classes were balanced. Except the new kids were better than the old schollers who refused to "change up with the times." Except now look at 4e as a combat minis system. Man, it has to be replaced? it's not the best? 3.5 wasn't ther best repalcement for 3rd? 3rd wasn't the best replacement for 2nd? I'm a dummy, but i see a damn pattern here and it means $ for Wizards. Next = "Incomplete" is a good word. Playtest launch was a disaster. Hours and hours, until some wag uploaded it as a torrent. Why have people, everyone in the group sign an NDA, only to have everyone out there that is playing play. Who is gonna disclose it to non players? Who needs 7 editions of a game? Why HAVE 7 editions? Well, they dumped TSR so they needed 3rd. then while 3rd was in production, they decided to write 3.5. Paizo is getting it right, and I don't even play Pathfinder. This is not intended to be edition war, just "I'm not doing Next, anymore good luck to all who wish to." You young non-"Curmudgeon" dudes feel free to pony up a few thousand bucks for dozens of core plus splat. Like I did. for 3 editions of the stuff. Mistake. When Next 2.0 comes out, I'll be sitting here playing 2nd ed. There is no best. But too many want to strive for it, and hope on the bandwagon, and when it goes wrong, refuse to believe that they made a bad choice. Well, I'm owning it. I did, and bought into 3rd, 3.5 and 4th. Ha and me the idiot, even got into Essentials. Was hopeful for next. Nope. Never. Again. I got my collection, gave them all sorts of dollareenies to jump on the bandwagon like the rest. Nope. I can see where it's going and I want a different ticket.

Pretty much agree with you James. I prefer to play 1e and retroclones. Why? Because I see no need to sink money into a game system that my game system does already. I've spent years tweaking it to fit my style of play so there is no incentive for me to go out and drop 40-50 or more per book that they feel I need to play my hobby. The younger generation will get introduced to the latest edition and make that their system choice which in time they will settle in with a specific system also. That is the nature of the beast so to say. I started with redbox, got excited with 1e, got jaded with 2e and all those supplements put out for it, 3 and 3.5 came along and I looked at the price, shook my head and said nope no way. I continued with what books I had until I found a retroclone that I truly enjoy and have been with that system for about the last 8 yrs. My system of choice is a rewrite of 3.5 to replicate the feel and mechanics of the old systems but uses some of the more modern mechanics. It is rules light and easy to use plus it is free for it is completely OGL. WoTC/TSR/HASBRO won't see a dime from me because of that.

yeah. I had my best gaming buddy talk me into pitching out my whole 2e collection on ebay and trade up for 3.5. we played 4 sessions, the group broke up and that was that. I ended up buying back a complete 2e collection in pieces over a number of years from picking and choosing on ebay and half price books. with black book 2 revised, cores rules 2.0 and CD-rom and dragon mag compilation on CD-rom, plus Profantasy CC3 and all the plugins, I'm completely set. Happy Holidays to all.

Feefait said: I have only played a few games with the system through the playtesting phase, but I have to say I am really, really excited to see that it's finally releasing later this year. Anyone else excited, or you old curmudgeons who don't want anything new and awesome and just want the young people to get off your lawn? /s lol Seriously though, what are your thoughts? No doubt you're joking about the old curmudgeon comment. But just remember these words, one day it will be you. Once upon a time, the Holmes Basic Set was the standard and we were buying 1st edition AD&D rulebooks, the new, cutting-edge version of the game. Anyway, I have absolutely zero interest in Next. I certainly won't dampen the excitement of anyone else who is looking forward to it, but I personally have no use for another edition. I have pretty much everything ever produced for 1st edition (including all the adventure modules) as well as much of what was produced for 2nd edition (minus splat books). Bottom line, I have no need to buy anything else. I'm currently running two first edition campaigns in Roll20, both full, and I'm content. Like Metroknight, I've spent years tweaking it with house rules and it works just fine for us.

I got 4 copies of original D&D (Blue dragon on treasure cover), and one of the anniversary edition. Recall it only had characters up to 3rd level. Played to level 2, then in '79 1e came out, and I was for real hooked. I still enjoy re-reading 1e DMG from time to time. How many copies of that book have I had. Even now 3 copies. If Next could somehow capture the magic that was leafing through the 1e DMG that excitement, that pure oh man this is gonna be so cool. These days, only Traveller Mongoose does that for me on a read.. I run 2nd ed because I don't have to use any of the books, since I've memorized most of it. One thing I got out of next as a cool idea but i won't use is the twin 20's rolled for advantaged or disadvantaged. neat mechanic. write a complete system like that, make all of combat a skill challenge, and I'm sold. but it won't go that way.

Its not a bad game, but I am not terribly excited. The amount of innovation is very low, I am not sure it does classic d&d better than PF and it certainly does tactical combat much worse than 4th. I will buy the core books, but tbh I was excpecting far more than this considering the massive r&d effort.

Yes, i was joking about the curmudgeon. I think it's amusing that the community fractures so much and can label people so. I also think it's amusing that those who are curmudgeons complain about new editions when the old stuff 'isn't broke'. DnD is in a unique position. My other game I play with any regularity is Warhammer. In that system when a new rules set comes out the old ones get immediately invalidated and never used again (by 99% of the community). I've never understood why that happens, maybe it's the competitive nature and drive for New. In DnD the old stuff is never invalidated. What used to work back then still works now. The issue with 4e is whether or not someone feels it works Many don't, and that's cool. I think it has some cool elements and some gaping holes. As I said though, i have no problem implementing house rules ot cover needs for our group. I do not think 4e did what they wanted, hopefully DDN will. I do hope they change the name, cause semantics can mean the death of it too. Personally I could never go back to Thaco and what not. It's been a long, long time since I've even tried it. Like 20+ years. I was brought back in by 3, then 3.5 and kept in with 4e. That allowed me to bring in my mmo friends, and I will move them to Next. Maybe. I too HATE buying books, models etc to never use them. That's probably why we are still in 4e - to justify the entry price. However, I do think there needs to be an entry price to keep the systems going. If WotC or any company does not sell there stuff then there will be no new blood, new books, new systems. I totally get not everyone needs a new system. I'm 40. I've been playing since I was roughly 8 or 10. I've played them all. My kids however have not. They have learned some 3.5, mainly 4e and soon we will have a game of DDN with me, my wife and my boys. My boys will then take that to school and teach their friends, as we did with the old Red Box. Yes, DDN is incomplete. It wasn't supposed to be a whole system in playtest. I would hope that at least it gets a look from some of us old guys. :)

I guess I just don't have the drive anymore to learn another system as I don't game face to face anymore (no gamers around where I live) and what I have works for me. I've never understood the whole system bashing in all the years I've been involved in gaming and I really don't consider myself a curmudgeon. I'm 47 and have been gaming since I was about 16. I played almost all the games that came out prior to 2000 then I got married so that limited my gaming and when my son was born, it really killed my gaming time. I do agree that DDN is incomplete and that is because it is in beta but when it comes out I just can't justify spending that type of money anymore..

Feefait said: I have only played a few games with the system through the playtesting phase, but I have to say I am really, really excited to see that it's finally releasing later this year. Anyone else excited, or you old curmudgeons who don't want anything new and awesome and just want the young people to get off your lawn? /s lol Seriously though, what are your thoughts? I think it's funny to label people not excited about D&D Next as curmudgeons who don't want anything new and awesome (don't worry, I know you weren't being serious, and my rant is the same), when D&D Next is a dinosaur! While D&D has been trundling along, churning out waves of splatbooks that rehash the same tired old material, whole waves of new and awesome games have been developing genuiniely innovative systems and mechanics. Those do excite me. D&D 4 did try something a little different (and the designers admit being influenced by innovative indie games), D&D next seems like a return to the same boring old formula, with a design motivated not so much to produce a better game, but to produce a marketing model to recapture gamers lost to Paizo and retroclones. So no, I'm not really excited by D&D Next. But it's not because I don't want anything new. It's because I DO want new and interesting stuff, and there are better places to find it than D&D.

This non-curmudgeon plays and runs fiasco, space patrol and Eclipse phase of all things. G space G nailed it: "seems like a return to the same boring old formula, with a design motivated not so much to produce a better game, but to produce a marketing model to recapture gamers lost to Paizo on retroclones." Well said. I would take pages to say that.