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GM Tip: Reduce Prep, Increase Engagement

I often hear from gamers about how much "work" it is to GM or that elements not actually prescribed by the game system we're playing is "the GM's job." Still others point to this "work" as a means of entitling them to increasing amounts of control over player choice or behavior or the creation of new information. In practice, I see this as causing players to disengage from the game in many ways including trying to undermine it, causing GMs who are already defensive about their creations to get even more defensive. Choice is presumed so as to preserve the prep and choices players make that don't fall into those presumptions are often blocked, negated, or denied (e.g. saying "No" or "Yes, but..." or engaging in illusionism). Since any approach can work with buy-in, this method is just as valid as any other approach where the group is bought into that paradigm; however, I see it as a vicious cycle of increasing amounts of work by the GM and less and less engagement by players. I've been down this road myself. I'm going to tell you now how to break that cycle by reducing your prep and using more of what your players give you. Reducing your prep means you have less to protect and less reason to block. It also means gaming more if your schedule permits. Soliciting the players for ideas and then using them is the fastest way to player engagement as well, as opposed to blocking them. This is the first of what I'm sure will be many posts in this thread discussing this and related techniques. Let's keep it civil and informative and ask honest questions instead of making dishonest assumptions. While GM styles are not equal, they are all valid with the group's buy-in. Below is the GM style called " No Myth Roleplaying ." This approach very neatly describes the style that some of us espouse for hosting roleplaying games. It stands in pretty stark contrast to the traditional "world controller GM" mode (as it has been recently coined in GMA) so I wanted to get opinions on it or see if anyone has any questions or additions to make. A link to the source document is at the end of this post. (For the record, it was not written by me. I adopted these techniques and have been refining them for some years and only stumbled across this all nicely spelled out after a recent Twitter exchange. I wish I had seen it a long time ago!) What is No Myth? The premise, and the reason it's called No Myth, is this: nothing you haven't said to the group exists. "You", in this case, includes the GM as well as the other players. The other half of this premise is "the [non-GM] players are the protagonists of the story." The result of this is that if the characters are mob enforcers and they go into a bar, something cool happens. Maybe they see the stoolie they're looking for in there, maybe there's an ambush in the bar by a rival mob, maybe the bartender's looking nervous because it turns out he's in default on his "loan". Whatever — the point is, there's something cool as a result of their action, because the goal of the system is for the GM to facilitate cool stuff happening. Note that this is not saying that the players get to say what happens when they go into the bar — the story is still being "run" by the GM — nor is it saying that player actions are meaningless or that their effects are arbitrarily decided by the GM — the effects are directly based on genre, the characters' previous actions, and what would be cool to have happen. No Myth and genre definition The overall goal here is pretty simple: make more cool stuff happen per unit time. This system (at least in theory) facilitates that, with the cost that it relies on having a clear understanding of the genre you're working in. That means two things: they have to understand the common elements of the genre, and they have to understand the rules by which they interact. For instance, a game where the PCs are mob enforcers probably has elements like scenes in Italian restaurants and barbershops, car chases, stick-ups, double-crosses, a suitcase full of cash or gold bars, leg-breaking, protection money, gambling, and the old don saying "Listen, Vinnie, the boys want to have a little talk with you". But along with the elements, the players have to know the rules of the world. If things get to the point where the don says that to you, you're probably going to die. If the player is envisioning more of a heroic swashbuckly game, they might say "Well, I drop down suddenly and roll across the floor, firing shots at the don's bodyguard to keep them back until I make it to the door." — only to be disappointed if the GM says that's not particularly realistic, applies heavy penalties to the roll and the bodyguard shoots the PC as they're still trying to get their pistol from its holster. For another example, if the PCs are at the edge of a cliff with the bad guys closing in, they need to know what's likely to happen if they jump off. Can PCs die if they do something stupid, or (assuming jumping off a cliff is stupid) would they fall onto some branches partway up? Or would they be rescued by a friendly hermit at the bottom of the cliff after they land, having broken a bunch of bones in the fall, and be laid up for months? Or (if we're talking something more nobilis-level) do they land on their feet at the bottom and keep on running? To take another example, if the players had gotten captured by the bad guys, would the bad guys kill them? Or would they tell the PCs their secret plan and then put them into some kind of crazy death trap? Is it reasonable for a player to create an anti-hero PC? Or are they all supposed to be basically good guys? If the party splits up, do they get picked off one by one, or do they search the spooky mansion faster that way? Are PCs basically witty and talkative, so the combat-heavy mercenary is an unpleasant thug, or are they special-forces agents and the one diplomat is a dangerous liability? I don't think all the rules and elements need to be ironed out, but without at least a basic premise being agreed upon, there's going to be confusion. Because of this, No Myth works better with strongly defined genres. "SF", say, would be a lousy setting since you don't know if there's AI and how powerful it is, whether there's nanotech, if FTL exists, and so on. "Star Trek", on the other hand, answers all those questions, and also includes a sense of who the characters are, what sorts of things they do, what the overall morality/philosophy of the universe is, and so on. I think that people make movies or write adventure books about are well-suited for this kind of game: pirates, musketeers, superheroes, Westerns, mobsters, sword and sorcery, Robin Hood, heist caper, Star Wars, that sort of thing (although many of these genres require pinning things down more before you start — do you want your Western to be "We got to get the cattle to Sun Valley by May!" or "You left me for dead, Black Pete, and now I'm back for blood"). Practical Techniques The previous section was all theory, which I feel like I have a pretty good handle on. But applying the theory to real games is something I am much less clear on. Still, I think there are some principles of play that can be stated: Nothing about the world or the storyline is sacred. The GM must not cheat to keep important NPCs alive or to ensure some specific scene happens. This is pretty much the most important rule. The only addenda here are that this doesn't mean the GM can't use system-defined methods for helping NPCs (eg, drama dice in 7th Sea), and PCs may play by different rules (this would depend on the particular genre being used, but rules like "PCs may not die except by their player's consent" or "PCs will suffer no permanent harm except through losing a conflict where they knew what stakes they were putting up" are entirely reasonable). There is no preset plot; there are preset genre expectations. This is actually fairly important to get worked out, although I don't have a good feel for the level of detail that it needs to be done in. I talk about genre in more detail up above. Boring bits can (and should) be fast-forwarded through. Sometimes this means the player has to say "Back when we were in town I bought new shoes and a pet monkey." This is fine. If the flashback doesn't seem reasonable or if the GM thinks it would likely have gotten complicated, it can actually be played out. In the Forge glossary, this technique is known as Scene Framing. The GM should handle all PC actions by agreeing that they succeed, or working out a conflict with the PC that they can roll dice for. This is the standard never-say-no rule, but it's good to keep in mind. Every die roll should be significant. As a complement to the previous item, the dice should only be rolled for conflicts that are actually interesting. This applies to requests that are just for color and have no game-effect, but — and here is where it gets to be hard to remember to do it — also to any conflict where it isn't the case that both success and failure will be interesting. If the PCs are trying to find a secret door, and the adventure can't proceed until they do, then failure is not interesting; this shouldn't be rolled for. If the story calls for the PCs to be made prisoners so they'll fight in the arena, then success in resisting the guards sent to capture them isn't interesting; this shouldn't be rolled for either. Of course, these sorts of GM-fiat things are effectively scene framing as mentioned above, and it's probably a bad idea to assert them without getting (at least implicit) player consent. Every die roll should have a goal and/or something at stake. This is effectively saying the players should be doing conflict resolution and not task resolution. In another sense, it's saying the same thing as the previous: every die roll should be significant, because there's something at stake for the player to win or lose depending on whether they make the roll, and because the GM promises the roll's outcome will have a concrete effect on the story. Note also that this can be used to help protagonize the player (ie, make the character act in the world more like how the player wants them to act). If Conan fails a conflict with the goal of "avoid being captured by the guards", it's perfectly reasonable for this to be narrated as "Conan swings his mighty sword around, slaying guard after guard as they charge him. But then he looks up to see one of the guards has grabbed the princess and has a dagger to her throat! "Drop your weapon, Conan, or the girl gets it!" the guard calls, and Conan is forced to submit to arm-shackles." In other words, Conan is still cool and still behaves in a Conan-like manner (ie, kicking ass), there are just forces out of his control. And the counterpoint here is that if the goal is "avoid being captured by the guards" and Conan wins the conflict, the GM can't then pull out the hostage thing — Conan won the conflict, so he doesn't get captured, period. Time should be spent on situations in direct proportion to how interesting they are. Or, in other words, conflicts should be handled at the right scale. This is again a combination of previous techniques. It means that scene framing should be used to skip past things that aren't interesting at all, and less important things should be handled by fewer die rolls than more important things. One way to do the latter is for the player and GM to agree on bigger goals for the less important things: "defeat these guards and break out of prison" or "climb the cliff in time to catch up with the kidnappers" vs "back McGraw into a position that'll hamper his swordfighting". A related way to handle it would be to have the same big goals for important conflicts, but then introduce subgoals, and have some system where accomplishing the subgoals leads to completing the big goal. Players should try things. This seems obvious, but it can go directly against habits from other technique systems. Because the point of this all is to make an interesting story from player actions, it requires the players to initiate some of the actions. The GM has to throw up story hooks that are the right scale for the players to interact with, and then the players have to interact with them. Note that a few of the techniques I listed aren't technically No Myth things; they're stuff I pulled in from elsewhere because I like them, and because they're compatible with the No Myth mindset. Additional information can be found at the original link .
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Interesting read, though I thought you already had this approach considering your earlier posts? To me, a problem arises if your players are actually the kind of players that want to truly explore a new world. Something that you as a DM have created and that they themselves know nothing or very little about. If they themselves would be asked to create parts of this world (not talking tavern names here, more like rules for the assassins guild if there is one) then they would be bored out of their mind. They are, clearly, the explorer type and no not every player is like that... but in my experience many "old school" ones are. That is why the majority of work is still on the GMs shoulders in my campaign. Because its fun, for us, and I don't have a life anyway. If I wouldn't do homebrew, some of my players would just not play because they already know preset world/setting X. On the rest I completely agree and already do this - I love prepping situations and npcs with motivations in a city that act and react instead of having something predertimed, I improvise a lot, but sometimes you need something more structured (say, a dungeon every now and then) and pre-building maps means I will definitely not move stuff around last second. Minions inside, on the other hand... I think you get the idea. Still, all of that doesn't nudge me to be in favor of no myth roleplaying even though I seem to be already doing all of the practical techniques except for the first - and maybe the fourth, as I don't tell my PCs what would happen if they fail a stealth check... Depends on their behaviour and who sees them and revealing an NPCs true thoughts to them just like that goes back to the boring-rule for my players. edit: To get back to your first few sentences... Yes, I tend to work about 15 hours per week (2 5-hour sessions of actual play not included) on my campaign, for free, for my players. How they play gives me enjoyment as well, but its still a lot of work. Maybe not work in the sense of I get paid for it and have to go there to survive, but still work as in time and concentration and energy invested - usually a lot more than a player. and yes, it should be appreciated by being punctual, trying not to be douche and paying attention. And, well, playing a character of a type that is within the rules I provide because I think for one reason or another that those rules help to ensure that everyone will enjoy the campaign. I see it as a social contract, a trade - and I definitely don't think it is too much to ask. Hell, even asking for 2 bucks a month or something in order to afford a sub for roll20 still wouldn't be too much, after all for a real life session the players usually cook for the GM which would turn out to be much more than 2 euro (or whathaveyou :) ) a month. Its what I call fairness. Well, this was a long edit :)
Mouse said: Interesting read, though I thought you already had this approach considering your earlier posts? Yes, though I came to my current approach on my own and only found this write-up on it a couple of weeks ago. It rather succinctly lays out approaches I've been discussing in the past and so I wanted to share it. To me, a problem arises if your players are actually the kind of players that want to truly explore a new world. Something that you as a DM have created and that they themselves know nothing or very little about. If they themselves would be asked to create parts of this world (not talking tavern names here, more like rules for the assassins guild if there is one) then they would be bored out of their mind. They are, clearly, the explorer type and no not every player is like that... but in my experience many "old school" ones are. Sure, buy-in is key to any approach. Let's examine this a bit though and see if it's compatible. You framed it as "something that you as GM have created." What if I created all of it extemporaneously for the players to explore? It's quite literally a "new world," as you say, ready to be explored. I could offer my own ideas and/or ask the players what they think as we collectively explore this world - perhaps even what their characters assume to be true - and say "Yes, and..." to it. In your example of the assassins guild, in the traditional approach, the GM might give that information out on a Knowledge check (if the game mechanics call for it) or through an NPC or clue. A player might also ask, "Is there an assassins guild?" The answer is "Yes, and..." even if I have never considered it before e.g. "Yes, and there is a cell rumored to be active in this city and they are planning something big." Here I have validated the player's offer and added to it under the common GM agenda of "fill the characters' lives with adventure" (i.e. some secret plot going on by the assassin's guild). The player might respond with "What are the rules for the assassins guild?" to which I might respond "Well, what has your character Ragnar heard about them or assume about them?" Whatever the player offers (or anyone at the table really) is further met with "Yes, and..." I might even ask how Ragnar came by this information. Did he have a run-in with them in the past? How does he view them or how do they view him? I'd be digging for sources of conflict here so that I can use them later in a fun way. So, here we have our new world. We're exploring it together. It apparently contains an assassin's guild that Ragnar knows something about and they are planning something big. That sounds like a situation ripe for development and it took no prep at all from the GM. I would say this approach is compatible with the style you framed above. What do you think? That is why the majority of work is still on the GMs shoulders in my campaign. Because its fun, for us, and I don't have a life anyway. If I wouldn't do homebrew, some of my players would just not play because they already know preset world/setting X. Like you and many other GMs, I enjoy the creative process as well. I just don't think we should allow that process to cause us to block player ideas or to be seen as "work" or a "job." Schedules permitting, I'd also think that less prep and more play is something we can all get behind since we enjoy our hobby. Still, all of that doesn't nudge me to be in favor of no myth roleplaying even though I seem to be already doing all of the practical techniques except for the first - and maybe the fourth, as I don't tell my PCs what would happen if they fail a stealth check... Depends on their behaviour and who sees them and revealing an NPCs true thoughts to them just like that goes back to the boring-rule for my players. Why do you choose not to tell them the stakes on a given roll? "If you fail this Stealth check, the orcs you're trying to sneak past will be alerted and will respond as you might expect an orc would - with violence." Or "If you failed this Insight check, you will not be able to discern whether Lord Badguy is lying about the assassins guild and he will take note of your doubt and begin working against your investigation out of spite." Then ask for a roll. Watch how much the tension goes up when players actually know the stakes they're rolling for. Remember, this is player knowledge and not necessarily character knowledge, though it could be if you wanted. edit: To get back to your first few sentences... Yes, I tend to work about 15 hours per week (2 5-hour sessions of actual play not included) on my campaign, for free, for my players. How they play gives me enjoyment as well, but its still a lot of work. Maybe not work in the sense of I get paid for it and have to go there to survive, but still work as in time and concentration and energy invested - usually a lot more than a player. and yes, it should be appreciated by being punctual, trying not to be douche and paying attention. And, well, playing a character of a type that is within the rules I provide because I think for one reason or another that those rules help to ensure that everyone will enjoy the campaign. I see it as a social contract, a trade - and I definitely don't think it is too much to ask. Hell, even asking for 2 bucks a month or something in order to afford a sub for roll20 still wouldn't be too much, after all for a real life session the players usually cook for the GM which would turn out to be much more than 2 euro (or whathaveyou :) ) a month. Its what I call fairness. Would you say that you expect this sort of behavior from players because of the work you put into the game or might it just be because it's simple common courtesy that we expect from others in most interactions, even outside of RPGs? I certainly wouldn't like people to not show up on time when we're going to see a movie. I wouldn't want to hang around at a bar with a "douche." I prefer it if when I'm talking with people at work they pay attention to me. I see these as common courtesy that one human offers another, not an extension of what kind of effort I'm putting into my GM prep.
I like it! As most beginning GMs have done, I used to try and "write a story" for the players to experience. This rarely worked out well and ended up feeling like a video game where you had the illusion of choice but really your only choice was to go down the one correct path and succeed or fail. The biggest issue I have with this type of gameplay, and why I've had to do a "hybrid" of these types of games, is that my players and I tend to play "tactical combat" style of games (i.e., D&D 4e or Pathfinder). "No Myth" style works fantastic for something like World of Darkness where all you need for the combat is the stats for whatever they're fighting. Everything else in the game can be created on the fly. I've had trouble doing this with, for example, D&D 4e. The biggest thing is that I need a map , a place for the players to fight. Encounters are pretty easy to do on the fly, or at least uninteresting encounters (drag some monsters on the board, commence fighting), but the map itself needs some prep, as do the encounters if I want to make them interesting and include traps, environmental effects, multiple strategies, etc. This means dungeon creation, and that requires prep work. The key thing is if I create a dungeon, but my players say "I want to go to the crypt instead!", and I haven't made a crypt...well, I'm out of luck. I'm forced to say "no" or "wait until next week." Granted, I don't really feel like dungeon and encounter creation is a chore; I enjoy making fun encounters for the PCs. For story aspects I do something very close to "No Myth", the only difference being I try to come up with some NPCs ahead of time and determine their core attributes. By "core attributes" I literally mean this: 1. Game stats: I have game stats for anything the players could decide to fight, even if they're generic (so Guard Thomby could have a standard Human Guard stats). That way if they decide to fight something I can start it right up and don't have to have them wait for me to come up with something. 2. Motivation: What the character wants. Whether that's an evil necromancer trying to resurrect a dead god or a guard captain wanting to protect his town, usually a one-sentence description of the character's motivation. This lets me improvise how the character acts with the PCs; I rarely make a full-blown character prior to their encounter with the players, and I flesh out the details of how the character wants to accomplish their motivation on the fly as well. Since these two things are pretty simple I can (and do) come up with NPCs on the fly as well, but I like to have some common people set up in the standard places I expect the PCs to go, like the local towns or surrounding points of interest. For dungeons I like to have a (again, one-sentence each) history and purpose so I can flesh out why there are things there, and have some coherence when I'm designing encounters. For example, if an abandoned crypt is being used by an evil necromancer trying to resurrect a dead god, it's reasonable to assume there will be some undead in the crypt and possibly some intelligence to their locations, i.e. protecting certain places, rather than just randomly wandering around. My "story hooks" usually are improvised whenever players encounter something that could be linked to an NPCs motivation, depending on whether or not the PCs want to promote that motivation (i.e., help the guard defend the town against monsters) or inhibit it (prevent the evil necromancer from summoning a dead god). Again, I like the concept, but I've struggled with in practice. I can see this working great for "Theater of the Mind" gameplay systems, but I'm curious how you would implement this in a Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder style of game.
Headhunter Jones said: So, here we have our new world. We're exploring it together. It apparently contains an assassin's guild that Ragnar knows something about and they are planning something big. That sounds like a situation ripe for development and it took no prep at all from the GM. I would say this approach is compatible with the style you framed above. What do you think? I disagree. That is exactly the point where my players would have a problem. If they get to make up more or less major (I would categorize the existence of an assassin's guild and that one of the players has knowledge of them somewhere in between minor and major, I suppose) things about the world for them it is not actually exploration, it is about writing a story together. Which, again and granted, can absolutely be loads of fun but not for this type of player. Not blaming it on them, I myself do enjoy gradually revealing stuff to them and also prefer exploring as a player :) I remember how one of my players actually outright told me something akin to that if he were to be asked to play in the same world as mine at some point (and same area maybe as other continents of course have their own flair) he would bow out as it would not be fun for him. He wants to organically learn about the rules and people and races and religions and festivals and creatures and so on and so forth - what I call 'exploring a world created by the GM'. Writing a story together with the players' creative input and exploring an unkown world are mutually exclusive in my opinion... though of course the players' characters can (and usually should) still have a major impact. I am horribly failing at doing more than one quote, I hope you can still make sense of this. As for not telling players the possible results before they roll? Whelp. Hard to find the right words here, but the element of surprise as fun probably comes close? If I tell the thief that if they don't disable this trap it will spray acid into the room, just about most gamers I know would move their characters out of the way. With other traps or even other rolls, they would already think of trying to beat the NPCs to the punch. 'Okay so if I fail they will see me - I already prepare my dagger and a pouch with explosives, ha!'. Yes, an overexaggeration :) How my NPCs react or don't react is not something the player characters would know and so I won't tell them. If someone questions why an NPC Orc is not attacking outright I won't tell them the Orcs' reasons. Thats up to the characters to find out and what reason would they have to do so if I already told the players? I honestly don't see how that would be better. What I do however practice to do is partial successes, a bit more of failing forward. Not always, but sometimes, as it makes the game more interesting. Even though I never would use a roll as a complete storyblock or something. Last but not least, what I expect from players. I would say that if I would absolutely not do any prep for any session whatsoever, give unenthusiastic responses all night or even just shuffle the group into one encounter after another it would be fair to not pay attention. For example :) In general though, that edit was aimed more at your point about GMs feeling entitled to a bigger vote on what and how and why the campaign works, and I disagreed with you if you do the work all (or about 90%) on your own (if its a completely collaborative story, that is, well, another story! :) ). I am allowed to disallow Orcs if they absolutely would not conceivably work in my world. I am allowed disallow them even if I just don't want them, and what I do and don't allow is usually made clear before a campaign starts. I have put the work in, so why is this entitlement (assuming you see entitlement as a bad thing/insult like I do)?
Jacquesne J. said: I like it! As most beginning GMs have done, I used to try and "write a story" for the players to experience. This rarely worked out well and ended up feeling like a video game where you had the illusion of choice but really your only choice was to go down the one correct path and succeed or fail. That was my experience as well for a long time. The biggest issue I have with this type of gameplay, and why I've had to do a "hybrid" of these types of games, is that my players and I tend to play "tactical combat" style of games (i.e., D&D 4e or Pathfinder). "No Myth" style works fantastic for something like World of Darkness where all you need for the combat is the stats for whatever they're fighting. Everything else in the game can be created on the fly. You might be surprised to learn that I host D&D 4e the most out of any RPG. I like tactical combat myself. No Myth works well with D&D 4e. I have not tried it for previous editions of the game. I've had trouble doing this with, for example, D&D 4e. The biggest thing is that I need a map , a place for the players to fight. Encounters are pretty easy to do on the fly, or at least uninteresting encounters (drag some monsters on the board, commence fighting), but the map itself needs some prep, as do the encounters if I want to make them interesting and include traps, environmental effects, multiple strategies, etc. This means dungeon creation, and that requires prep work. The key thing is if I create a dungeon, but my players say "I want to go to the crypt instead!", and I haven't made a crypt...well, I'm out of luck. I'm forced to say "no" or "wait until next week." I use a couple of approaches. If you like looking for or creating maps, it's easy enough to favorite (using Roll20's features), upload, or create a few generic maps that'll fit a number of situations and abstract anything that connects them. A crypt is a good example of a commonly used map. Another approach which is a lot of fun is collaborative mapping. Frame the scene in general e.g. "You've entered the torture chamber of Lord Badguy" and talk about some general impressions and its inhabitants. Draw out the borders of the map using the draw tool. Place one major feature there, say, a vat of boiling oil. Then ask the players in initiative order to draw one additional feature of the room that fits the scene (or they can ask you to look for an image in the gallery that works). Somebody adds an iron maiden, another a rack, someone else places some rubble and bones, and another adds some huddled prisoners. As they draw it, ask them how a particular feature might be used tactically by the PCs and the enemies. "Yes, and..." everything. Then marvel at how much more they use the terrain in fun ways during the fight than if you just drew it up yourself and put it there ahead of time. Granted, I don't really feel like dungeon and encounter creation is a chore; I enjoy making fun encounters for the PCs. For story aspects I do something very close to "No Myth", the only difference being I try to come up with some NPCs ahead of time and determine their core attributes. By "core attributes" I literally mean this: 1. Game stats: I have game stats for anything the players could decide to fight, even if they're generic (so Guard Thomby could have a standard Human Guard stats). That way if they decide to fight something I can start it right up and don't have to have them wait for me to come up with something. 2. Motivation: What the character wants. Whether that's an evil necromancer trying to resurrect a dead god or a guard captain wanting to protect his town, usually a one-sentence description of the character's motivation. This lets me improvise how the character acts with the PCs; I rarely make a full-blown character prior to their encounter with the players, and I flesh out the details of how the character wants to accomplish their motivation on the fly as well. Cool. Motivations are important and help make it easy to improvise interesting and fun responses to PC action or inaction.
Mouse said: I disagree. That is exactly the point where my players would have a problem. If they get to make up more or less major (I would categorize the existence of an assassin's guild and that one of the players has knowledge of them somewhere in between minor and major, I suppose) things about the world for them it is not actually exploration, it is about writing a story together. Which, again and granted, can absolutely be loads of fun but not for this type of player. Not blaming it on them, I myself do enjoy gradually revealing stuff to them and also prefer exploring as a player :) "Writing a story together" is a byproduct of every RPG though. A story is created simply by playing, even if you're not consciously trying to, even if you're just grinding out encounters with orcs. I otherwise understand your approach as I used to do it that way. What do you do when what you've created doesn't resonate with the players? Let's say you're really fired up about an idea, do your prep work, and then the players during play indicate directly or indirectly that what they're exploring just isn't very interesting and fun? I remember how one of my players actually outright told me something akin to that if he were to be asked to play in the same world as mine at some point (and same area maybe as other continents of course have their own flair) he would bow out as it would not be fun for him. He wants to organically learn about the rules and people and races and religions and festivals and creatures and so on and so forth - what I call 'exploring a world created by the GM'. It seems to me it's more about the player than the character. This seems reversed to me since I'm playing to find out what happens to the characters. I also find this approach leads to a lot of "20 Questions" and "GM May I?" interactions which impacts pacing and immersion. How do you view this? Writing a story together with the players' creative input and exploring an unkown world are mutually exclusive in my opinion... though of course the players' characters can (and usually should) still have a major impact. They're not though, as I've demonstrated above. A world can be completely unknown to the players or characters (and to the GM) and created and explored using the players' creative input, if you want. As for not telling players the possible results before they roll? Whelp. Hard to find the right words here, but the element of surprise as fun probably comes close? If I tell the thief that if they don't disable this trap it will spray acid into the room, just about most gamers I know would move their characters out of the way. "If the thief fails his disable trap roll, it will activate the trap." That can be player or character knowledge, depending on the situation. If a player uses meta knowledge to make his character do something, he can simply justify it in the fiction as needed. With other traps or even other rolls, they would already think of trying to beat the NPCs to the punch. 'Okay so if I fail they will see me - I already prepare my dagger and a pouch with explosives, ha!'. Yes, an overexaggeration :) I don't see it as an exaggeration. It sounds like shrewd preparation for failure to me. How my NPCs react or don't react is not something the player characters would know and so I won't tell them. The players could know it though even if the characters don't, right? If someone questions why an NPC Orc is not attacking outright I won't tell them the Orcs' reasons. Thats up to the characters to find out and what reason would they have to do so if I already told the players? I honestly don't see how that would be better. Because players can use the meta knowledge in interesting ways, even to make something more challenging, if they want. It's not always used for advantage, even though many GMs worry about this. It's valid to worry about it, but easily resolved through directly talking to the players about it and what kind of challenges they want in the game. Short-circuiting challenges through "metagaming" is really about someone wanting to bypass something they don't find interesting anyway. What I do however practice to do is partial successes, a bit more of failing forward. Not always, but sometimes, as it makes the game more interesting. Even though I never would use a roll as a complete storyblock or something. Cool, me too. Last but not least, what I expect from players. I would say that if I would absolutely not do any prep for any session whatsoever, give unenthusiastic responses all night or even just shuffle the group into one encounter after another it would be fair to not pay attention. For example :) In general though, that edit was aimed more at your point about GMs feeling entitled to a bigger vote on what and how and why the campaign works, and I disagreed with you if you do the work all (or about 90%) on your own (if its a completely collaborative story, that is, well, another story! :) ). I am allowed to disallow Orcs if they absolutely would not conceivably work in my world. I am allowed disallow them even if I just don't want them, and what I do and don't allow is usually made clear before a campaign starts. I have put the work in, so why is this entitlement (assuming you see entitlement as a bad thing/insult like I do)? My view is that if you do zero prep or lots of prep, you are entitled to the respect one person should give another according to the rules of common courtesy. A GM isn't entitled to anything more than that because he spends disproportionately more time on the game than the players. Few would argue that "My World, My Rules" isn't "fair enough," but I find "Our World, Let's Figure It Out Together" to be a better dynamic for RPG groups.
Headhunter Jones said: "Writing a story together" is a byproduct of every RPG though. A story is created simply by playing, even if you're not consciously trying to, even if you're just grinding out encounters with orcs. Heh, I wondered whether I should have included that part but then I already rambled on for so long I removed it since I thought it was obvious. Of course the players and I create a story together - but only in so far as their characters can impact the world. No more, no less. They don't 'get' to influence the rest of the world which is the part I meant when I said writing a story together instead of exploring a world written by someone else via characters written by yourself. What do you do when what you've created doesn't resonate with the players? Let's say you're really fired up about an idea, do your prep work, and then the players during play indicate directly or indirectly that what they're exploring just isn't very interesting and fun? Me? I don't do anything. My players? They go after something else. :) You sometimes seem to correlate that players-not-creating-the-world = complete railroading. I always make sure to offer several unrelated things for them to do. If they want to go South to the Sea and plunder ships, I will let them be pirates (yarr!) and prep treasure islands and sunken cities and whatnot, if they want to go North to the Elves completely different situations (as opposed to predetermined adventures) will pop up which they may or may not witness and may or may not be interested in, all depending on the characters' actions. This way, its actually kind of hard for my players to get into something they don't want to be a part of, as they created their characters on their own and chose their personalites - I had no part in that. One would then assume that this leads to people creating characters with motivations that lead to stuff they enjoy to roleplay. :) Should the case still pop up that someone doesn't enjoy something at all they are of course free to message me or outright yell my way after a session that they want X, damnit... and then I'll try to figure out together with them if at all possible and without annoying someone else. I also tend to ask my players every now and then about this, so its not like they have to get over the fear of approaching me or something ;) It seems to me it's more about the player than the character. This seems reversed to me since I'm playing to find out what happens to the characters. I also find this approach leads to a lot of "20 Questions" and "GM May I?" interactions which impacts pacing and immersion. How do you view this? Yes it is more about the player, after all they are the ones supposed to have fun with this explorer style, as I have dubbed it in this conversation. Granted, the player in question does not get their fun of roleplaying out of this part alone, but its important to him and others nonetheless and should be catered to (GM and rest of the group willing and able, of course). As for 20 questions... Are you thinking along the lines of 'what do I know about this', because thats not the case in my (homebrew) campaign as its kind of Secret of Evermore-ish if that tells you anything. Basically, modern-day people get thrown into different world, hilarity ensues. I do agree that with a more standard setting, every player should know some general stuff about the world their character would know. And, of course, with your approach they could just make it up as long as its reasonable, so that works too. Anyway, when I give out more general information I usually hand out a handout (heh) or message the information to them so they can read at their leisure while I am paying attention to another player(s). Reading something as your character reads something should imo not break immersion that badly, usually. Pacing? Yes, it takes time, but as long as its interesting playtime is playtime. They're not though, as I've demonstrated above. A world can be completely unknown to the players or characters (and to the GM) and created and explored using the players' creative input, if you want. See my response above, yes they are. The key phrase is 'using the players' creative input'. Its like in a Command and Conquer game where the player would get the ability to place units inside of the Fog of War which has not been revealed yet. To me and others, this takes away the fun of exploration. "If the thief fails his disable trap roll, it will activate the trap." That can be player or character knowledge, depending on the situation. If a player uses meta knowledge to make his character do something, he can simply justify it in the fiction as needed. And in my eyes, that is a problem, right along the same lines of f.e. players suddenly searching a specific place as well because one of them rolled low on that one. If your buddy that you trust searched a place, you trust they did well unless they never do well on that kind of stuff in which case why did you make them the 'searcher' anyway. This is why I utilise blind rolls where no one but me actually knows how high they rolled. You are always confident in your abilities unless you have a reason not to be (and knowing you rolled low out of game is no valid in-game reason). Revealing what each and every trap does (unless visible in SOME way) is not fun for me. The players could know it though even if the characters don't, right? They could guess at it, but unless I tell them in-game or out of game they wouldn't know either. And I would actually see it as being harder for them to roleplay as their character (who doesn't know) if they know, harder to be authentic/realistic, so to speak? At least for people who have trouble with that, which are more than they think. :) It breaks immersion to hear things that your character wouldn't know in a moment where you have to make a critical decision that your character would do one way but now with this knowledge you would rather punch someone or leave them behind, because you are annoyed. Not the character. Emotions are what they are. Because players can use the meta knowledge in interesting ways, even to make something more challenging, if they want. It's not always used for advantage, even though many GMs worry about this. It's valid to worry about it, but easily resolved through directly talking to the players about it and what kind of challenges they want in the game. Short-circuiting challenges through "metagaming" is really about someone wanting to bypass something they don't find interesting anyway. I don't worry about that (with most players, anyway) but I don't see the need for something that imo breaks immersion and annoys my players just so they can metagame... more? Instead I just offer options. Always and forever options! Heh. My view is that if you do zero prep or lots of prep, you are entitled to the respect one person should give another according to the rules of common courtesy. A GM isn't entitled to anything more than that because he spends disproportionately more time on the game than the players. Few would argue that "My World, My Rules" isn't "fair enough," but I find "Our World, Let's Figure It Out Together" to be a better dynamic for RPG groups. Bolded by me: And so we shall disagree :) At least with 3.5, Pathfinder, L5R, Vampire, Shadowrun, AD&D, StarWars and some others I no doubt forgot. Systems like Fate or Apocalypse World on the other hand are THE systems for that kind of play.
Mouse said: Heh, I wondered whether I should have included that part but then I already rambled on for so long I removed it since I thought it was obvious. Of course the players and I create a story together - but only in so far as their characters can impact the world. No more, no less. They don't 'get' to influence the rest of the world which is the part I meant when I said writing a story together instead of exploring a world written by someone else via characters written by yourself. Do you ask the players for "backstories" on their characters prior to play? Often those backstories contain elements that are related to their character, but are actually things that lay in the domain of the GM - events, locations, NPCs, and such. GMs tend to let that slide with or without modification, but once play begins, the player is no longer "allowed" to change the world outside of their character's fictional or mechanical ability to do so. Why would you say that is so? Me? I don't do anything. My players? They go after something else. :) You sometimes seem to correlate that players-not-creating-the-world = complete railroading. Whoa, definitely not my position. Railroading is control of a player character's decisions, or opportunities for decisions, by another person (not the player of the character) in any way which breaks the Social Contract for that group, in the eyes of the character's player. The key thing is that it has to break the social contract to be railroading . If the players want no say in anything about the world outside the direct influence of their characters and cede that control to the GM, then railroading is not possible in that instance because you have buy-in from the players. Same goes for adventures with plots that presume character action (e.g. the PCs go here and do this, then talk to this guy, then go and fight these dudes, etc.) - if the players are okay with that paradigm it is, by definition, no longer railroading since it does not violate the social contract. I always make sure to offer several unrelated things for them to do. If they want to go South to the Sea and plunder ships, I will let them be pirates (yarr!) and prep treasure islands and sunken cities and whatnot, if they want to go North to the Elves completely different situations (as opposed to predetermined adventures) will pop up which they may or may not witness and may or may not be interested in, all depending on the characters' actions. As to "I don't do anything," it sounds more like you do more prep actually. Which is fine since you appear to enjoy it, but the scope of this particular thread is on reducing it, as many in this community stake out the position of "GMing is so much 'work' therefore I'm entitled to more control, etc." The truth is, the approach is what causes more "work." Or they want more control and thus create more work for themselves to justify it. Chicken and the egg? Yes it is more about the player , after all they are the ones supposed to have fun with this explorer style, as I have dubbed it in this conversation. Granted, the player in question does not get their fun of roleplaying out of this part alone, but its important to him and others nonetheless and should be catered to (GM and rest of the group willing and able, of course). I think you're the first person I've seen actually admit this honestly (emphasis mine). I appreciate that. Most like to dodge the question because they think there's a right or wrong answer. As for 20 questions... Are you thinking along the lines of 'what do I know about this', because thats not the case in my (homebrew) campaign as its kind of Secret of Evermore-ish if that tells you anything. Basically, modern-day people get thrown into different world, hilarity ensues. That premise would seem to fit the "Yes, it's more about the player" paradigm you mentioned above pretty well. I assume you've run other campaigns with different premises. How did that play into the "more about the player" dynamic? When I say "20 Questions," I mean that the players can declare nothing outside of their characters so they have to ask about everything in a way that isn't actually roleplaying. "What's on the altar?" "Is the door locked?" "How deep is the water?" That slows down the game a lot in my view and since the questions are the player clarifying information being perceived rather than the character acting by way of player declaration of details without asking, it impacts immersion and the flow of the narrative. I do agree that with a more standard setting, every player should know some general stuff about the world their character would know. And, of course, with your approach they could just make it up as long as its reasonable, so that works too. Anyway, when I give out more general information I usually hand out a handout (heh) or message the information to them so they can read at their leisure while I am paying attention to another player(s). Reading something as your character reads something should imo not break immersion that badly, usually. Pacing? Yes, it takes time, but as long as its interesting playtime is playtime. More prep is your answer here it seems, and you agree that pacing takes a hit (thanks again for that honesty). I agree that it's fine as long as it's interesting. In games I've played or podcasts that I've listened to which follows this approach, the pacing is usually pretty bad and it's not very interesting to boot since exploration games of this sort often lack tension and conflict. Perhaps you have a way of dealing with this. I do, but I'm curious to see your response. And in my eyes, that is a problem, right along the same lines of f.e. players suddenly searching a specific place as well because one of them rolled low on that one. If your buddy that you trust searched a place, you trust they did well unless they never do well on that kind of stuff in which case why did you make them the 'searcher' anyway. This is why I utilise blind rolls where no one but me actually knows how high they rolled. You are always confident in your abilities unless you have a reason not to be (and knowing you rolled low out of game is no valid in-game reason). Revealing what each and every trap does (unless visible in SOME way) is not fun for me. I'm glad you touched on this because No Myth advocates conflict resolution over task resolution (see the original post). If you're just searching a place, there's likely no roll since there's no real conflict there. There is no "I took the action of 'searching,' therefore I make a check." Now, if you're trying to search a place or else you'll set off the trap or before the orcs bash down the door , then it might be a roll. Otherwise you just succeed given time, expertise, and resources. Failing forward also applies (success and failure must both be interesting or it's not a roll). This requires less effort by the GM, keeps the game moving, needs no policing of "metagaming," and reduces rolls to only when they're important and for when stakes are interesting. There's no Perception spamming because Bob's character blew his check - he blew it and now the stakes you were playing for are resolved: You find something you were looking for, but the trap is set off or you find something you were looking for, but the orcs just bashed down the door and are looking to fight. Consider also that knowing about something doesn't necessarily mean you have any kind of edge, if game mechanics are involved. There are DCs and rolls to be made regardless, as long as you're an impartial GM. "There's a trap up ahead hindering your path down this corridor to the vault. What do you do about that?" Knowing things (or being able to declare things) means the players can make decisions and the characters can act and mechanics can come into play. Not knowing things and not being able to declare things means they can't make decisions and cannot act until they do which means we're back to 20 Questions and task resolution rolls. Or they make uninformed decisions (especially if the stakes aren't discussed) which is about the same as flipping a coin. A frequent comment about games I host is that there are a lot of hard choices. There aren't, actually. It's just for the first time many players are actually faced with meaningful choices because they have information to weigh about a potential conflict rather than just resolving tasks. They could guess at it, but unless I tell them in-game or out of game they wouldn't know either. And I would actually see it as being harder for them to roleplay as their character (who doesn't know) if they know, harder to be authentic/realistic, so to speak? At least for people who have trouble with that, which are more than they think. :) It breaks immersion to hear things that your character wouldn't know in a moment where you have to make a critical decision that your character would do one way but now with this knowledge you would rather punch someone or leave them behind, because you are annoyed. Not the character. Emotions are what they are. There's actually no trouble with that at all except the trouble we choose to bring to the process, usually due to concerns about "metagaming." Players that are actually engaged by the content don't use meta information to defeat the challenge being presented. A player that is engaged may use the meta information to make the scene more interesting or dynamic, even harder on themselves. As for authenticity or realism, that's a simple matter of offering justification in the fiction for use of meta information by way of Author or Director stance. This doesn't seem to be an option in your approach, however. I don't worry about that (with most players, anyway) but I don't see the need for something that imo breaks immersion and annoys my players just so they can metagame... more? Instead I just offer options. Always and forever options! Heh. Options you've prepped? Maintaining immersion is a skill just like Method acting is a skill some actors employ and hone. How much it is influenced depends on the skill of the player. Those who value the feeling of immersion (and it is a feeling and thus under that person's control) are well-advised to work on maintaining it even when faced with information their character doesn't have. To me, "20 Questions" and "GM May I?" interactions impact immersion - since such interactions are not roleplaying - far more than compartmentalizing character and player knowledge or using it through Author or Director stance (which is roleplaying). Bolded by me: And so we shall disagree :) At least with 3.5, Pathfinder, L5R, Vampire, Shadowrun, AD&D, StarWars and some others I no doubt forgot. Systems like Fate or Apocalypse World on the other hand are THE systems for that kind of play. While Fate or Apocalypse World directly support No Myth in a lot of ways, the other systems you mention do not specifically exclude it as a valid approach. On the collaborative level, the games you reference do suggest that the GM's role is to control the world (or words to that effect), but doesn't generally outline how a GM might affect that control, such as by harnessing the players' creative input. To that end, I see good compatibility.
Headhunter Jones said: Do you ask the players for "backstories" on their characters prior to play? Often those backstories contain elements that are related to their character, but are actually things that lay in the domain of the GM - events, locations, NPCs, and such. GMs tend to let that slide with or without modification, but once play begins, the player is no longer "allowed" to change the world outside of their character's fictional or mechanical ability to do so. Why would you say that is so? I work out character backstories together with the players, giving them - once more - options. Say someone wants to play a halfling I tell them a few details about halfling society, geographical location and so on unless the player already knows about all of that, of course. Depending on the characters' personality, stats, flaws and traits we then move on to how he could have possibly grown up. Nothing goes by me without approval. The process of coming up what happened in the past of a character however is in my opinion altogether different from what is happening around the character in the present or future (though I make it clear to players that if they want something specific like an abrupt alignment change or whatnot they should feel free to voice their wishes). Even with the past they are not really allowed to change the world, really... if there is a one-child policy in my world they can't have a sibling (or of course their parents are in jail for that :) ). Its hard to quantify. I don't really ever give away control (the final yes or no), but I do ask for opinions, ideas and wishes and try to work with that or at least allow a compromise if possible.. if that makes any sense at all :) Whoa, definitely not my position. Railroading is control of a player character's decisions, or opportunities for decisions, by another person (not the player of the character) in any way which breaks the Social Contract for that group, in the eyes of the character's player. The key thing is that it has to break the social contract to be railroading. If the players want no say in anything about the world outside the direct influence of their characters and cede that control to the GM, then railroading is not possible in that instance because you have buy-in from the players. Same goes for adventures with plots that presume character action (e.g. the PCs go here and do this, then talk to this guy, then go and fight these dudes, etc.) - if the players are okay with that paradigm it is, by definition, no longer railroading since it does not violate the social contract. Railroading as I understand it describes a GM only prepping one current adventure at a time and the players have to follow each plotpoint and can not in any way influence any outcome during said adventure. It doesn't mean its against the social contract if everyone agrees to this at the beginning, it just means that choices or freedom to do what you want should not be expected. This just to clarify what I meant how you sometimes come across when you talk about 'us GMs' who do not build everything together with our players. As to "I don't do anything," it sounds more like you do more prep actually. Which is fine since you appear to enjoy it, but the scope of this particular thread is on reducing it, as many in this community stake out the position of "GMing is so much 'work' therefore I'm entitled to more control, etc." The truth is, the approach is what causes more "work." Or they want more control and thus create more work for themselves to justify it. Chicken and the egg? Back in the olden days I would have done more prep, but I was a lot more railroady back then. Nowadays its about 5 1-paragraph situations/interesting NPCs/whatnot to every 1 completely prepped adventure. Actually, the only adventures I prep are those that include some sort of dungeon as that (as I already mentioned somewhere I think) is something that really does need prepping. Well, that, and the overall stuff and what did the NPCs do in the meantime :) I do think more prep is worth it to have a consistent world that makes sense in-game which I believe would not be entirely possible with the style you use as things and people would just keep popping up out of nowhere. Not in a gamebreaking way, just in ways that doesn't necessarily make sense if ... that makes any sense. I'm glad you touched on this because No Myth advocates conflict resolution over task resolution (see the original post). If you're just searching a place, there's likely no roll since there's no real conflict there. There is no "I took the action of 'searching,' therefore I make a check." Now, if you're trying to search a place or else you'll set off the trap or before the orcs bash down the door , then it might be a roll. Otherwise you just succeed given time, expertise, and resources. Failing forward also applies (success and failure must both be interesting or it's not a roll). This requires less effort by the GM, keeps the game moving, needs no policing of "metagaming," and reduces rolls to only when they're important and for when stakes are interesting. There's no Perception spamming because Bob's character blew his check - he blew it and now the stakes you were playing for are resolved: You find something you were looking for, but the trap is set off or you find something you were looking for, but the orcs just bashed down the door and are looking to fight. Consider also that knowing about something doesn't necessarily mean you have any kind of edge, if game mechanics are involved. There are DCs and rolls to be made regardless, as long as you're an impartial GM. "There's a trap up ahead hindering your path down this corridor to the vault. What do you do about that?" Knowing things (or being able to declare things) means the players can make decisions and the characters can act and mechanics can come into play. Not knowing things and not being able to declare things means they can't make decisions and cannot act until they do which means we're back to 20 Questions and task resolution rolls. Or they make uninformed decisions (especially if the stakes aren't discussed) which is about the same as flipping a coin. A frequent comment about games I host is that there are a lot of hard choices. There aren't, actually. It's just for the first time many players are actually faced with meaningful choices because they have information to weigh about a potential conflict rather than just resolving tasks. I use the concept of passive perception and rolling for my players on some things unless they actively start searching a specific thing/square or want to do something specific - then they give me a blind roll. Everything they can already see I describe when they get into the room but yes, for details they need to ask. People still do sense motive group checks basically, but at least they don't know who rolled well and who didn't. I don't know. The surprise that there is a trap in a location to me is important enough to not tell the party about this. As long as the trap is concealed, that is! Something they see should of course be mentioned. But if I just tell them the location of every trap without the characters actually being able to see anything, it feels... wrong. There are lots of choices in my game too, I just greatly dislike author or director stance when it comes to the playstyle of my players. There's actually no trouble with that at all except the trouble we choose to bring to the process, usually due to concerns about "metagaming." Players that are actually engaged by the content don't use meta information to defeat the challenge being presented. A player that is engaged may use the meta information to make the scene more interesting or dynamic, even harder on themselves. As for authenticity or realism, that's a simple matter of offering justification in the fiction for use of meta information by way of Author or Director stance. This doesn't seem to be an option in your approach, however. Again, I very much prefer actor stance. And in this particular case I know that at least one of my players does actually play to 'win' (disclaimer: also from acting out a role and so on and so forth) - to have the best outcome in any situation I throw their way. He would absolutely hate this and struggle not to use it because using it gives him the best outcome for the situation. Basically, he wants to play with fog of war rather than without, and I share that feeling - though not the winning part, to me failure can be immensely interesting, but eh, he is new, he will (hopefully) learn. I don't worry about that (with most players, anyway) but I don't see the need for something that imo breaks immersion and annoys my players just so they can metagame... more? Instead I just offer options. Always and forever options! Heh. Options you've prepped? Depends. If the players just happen to want to trod down a path I have not imagined yet, I imagine/improvise it and after the session ask them where they think they are headed (both story-wise and direction-wise). So no. Options as in whatever my players can think of and that is plausible in the game world (i.e. at the moment they won't be able to fly away from enemies, usually :) ). I do try to keep some prepped stuff in there as well though, so yes. Overall: Yes and no. Depends. On the collaborative level, the games you reference do suggest that the GM's role is to control the world (or words to that effect), but doesn't generally outline how a GM might affect that control, such as by harnessing the players' creative input. To that end, I see good compatibility. For you, yes. For me because neither I nor my players would enjoy it, no :)
Mouse said: I work out character backstories together with the players, giving them - once more - options. Say someone wants to play a halfling I tell them a few details about halfling society, geographical location and so on unless the player already knows about all of that, of course. Depending on the characters' personality, stats, flaws and traits we then move on to how he could have possibly grown up. Nothing goes by me without approval. The process of coming up what happened in the past of a character however is in my opinion altogether different from what is happening around the character in the present or future (though I make it clear to players that if they want something specific like an abrupt alignment change or whatnot they should feel free to voice their wishes). Even with the past they are not really allowed to change the world, really... if there is a one-child policy in my world they can't have a sibling (or of course their parents are in jail for that :) ). Its hard to quantify. I don't really ever give away control (the final yes or no), but I do ask for opinions, ideas and wishes and try to work with that or at least allow a compromise if possible.. if that makes any sense at all :) What do you find are the benefits of this control? What are the drawbacks? Objectively speaking. Railroading as I understand it describes a GM only prepping one current adventure at a time and the players have to follow each plotpoint and can not in any way influence any outcome during said adventure. It doesn't mean its against the social contract if everyone agrees to this at the beginning, it just means that choices or freedom to do what you want should not be expected. This just to clarify what I meant how you sometimes come across when you talk about 'us GMs' who do not build everything together with our players. It's not railroading if the players are bought into the approach. If, on the other hand, the players think they're playing a sandbox only to be pushed down a plot-based adventure, then that would be railroading. Railroading is about breaking that agreement or understanding, not about the design of an adventure. Thus, a linear, plot-based adventure that presumes player choice isn't actually railroading. (Choosing outcomes normally governed by mechanical resolution in the game's rules is known as "illusionism.") Those GMs who do not engage in collaborative world-building with the players aren't railroading either unless a social contract was broken with regard to the creation of decisions or opportunities for decisions. Back in the olden days I would have done more prep, but I was a lot more railroady back then. Nowadays its about 5 1-paragraph situations/interesting NPCs/whatnot to every 1 completely prepped adventure. Actually, the only adventures I prep are those that include some sort of dungeon as that (as I already mentioned somewhere I think) is something that really does need prepping. They don't inherently need prepping - that's just something you choose to do. (Again, all fine, but the point of this thread is reducing prep so I'm pointing it out for others.) The 4e DMG, for example, provides guidelines for creating dungeons randomly and on-the-fly (page 190). As well, we can eschew the traditional "old school" dungeon which is usually a completely mapped and prepped complex in favor of encounter areas (The Fallen Crypt, The Disputed Bridge, The Caverns of Woe, etc.) connected by abstracted means rather than drawn-out corridors or tunnels. With collaborative mapping (mentioned above), it's even less prep still. Well, that, and the overall stuff and what did the NPCs do in the meantime :) I do think more prep is worth it to have a consistent world that makes sense in-game which I believe would not be entirely possible with the style you use as things and people would just keep popping up out of nowhere. Not in a gamebreaking way, just in ways that doesn't necessarily make sense if ... that makes any sense. Your argument makes sense in that I understand what you're saying, but it does not hold true. Consistency with the genre and the established fiction is required in No Myth. This is discussed in the original post. If we're playing D&D, a game of heroic fantasy action/adventure, it comes with certain genre expectations. Star Wars is also a game of heroic fantasy action/adventure. But when we're playing D&D, you can't suddenly hop into your X-wing and go visit Yoda on Dagobah. It is the responsibility of the GM and players to act within the creative constraints agreed upon before play. This includes fiction established extemporaneously. In the "Yes, and..." approach, you are affirming and validating someone's offer and cannot in contradict it in a way that breaks this consistency, even though you are empowered to add to it after the "and" bit. I use the concept of passive perception and rolling for my players on some things unless they actively start searching a specific thing/square or want to do something specific - then they give me a blind roll. Everything they can already see I describe when they get into the room but yes, for details they need to ask. People still do sense motive group checks basically, but at least they don't know who rolled well and who didn't. I don't know. The surprise that there is a trap in a location to me is important enough to not tell the party about this. As long as the trap is concealed, that is! Something they see should of course be mentioned. But if I just tell them the location of every trap without the characters actually being able to see anything, it feels... wrong. "Gotcha" traps are rather a common complaint among D&D communities and I believe they were changed a lot in D&D 4e for that reason. Now they are included in encounter design rather than run across in some empty corridor or doorway. But I don't want to get hung up on one example when we're talking about general approaches. The approach you describe does seem geared to be more about the player than the character and is thus consistent with what you've said above. There are lots of choices in my game too, I just greatly dislike author or director stance when it comes to the playstyle of my players. How do you think the preference for players being in Actor stance plays into a desire for control by the GM? I find there is correlation (more prep, preference for Actor stance, more control taken during game), but stop short of saying it is causation. Again, I very much prefer actor stance. And in this particular case I know that at least one of my players does actually play to 'win' (disclaimer: also from acting out a role and so on and so forth) - to have the best outcome in any situation I throw their way. He would absolutely hate this and struggle not to use it because using it gives him the best outcome for the situation. Basically, he wants to play with fog of war rather than without, and I share that feeling - though not the winning part, to me failure can be immensely interesting, but eh, he is new, he will (hopefully) learn. Preferences and specific people who I don't actually know aside, aren't we really talking about someone who can't control himself? Someone who puts his competitive nature (in a non-competitive game no less) above the game experience itself? Meta information can be used in lots of ways, good or bad. And in any event, oftentimes meta information and the actions stemming from it (justified in the fiction or not) still have to pass through the crucible of mechanics and dice rolls. Having information doesn't necessarily mean you "win," as long as the GM is impartial and calls mechanics into play as the game system prescribes. Depends. If the players just happen to want to trod down a path I have not imagined yet, I imagine/improvise it and after the session ask them where they think they are headed (both story-wise and direction-wise). So no. Options as in whatever my players can think of and that is plausible in the game world (i.e. at the moment they won't be able to fly away from enemies, usually :) ). I do try to keep some prepped stuff in there as well though, so yes. Overall: Yes and no. Depends. Do you try to steer them back to prepared material either directly or indirectly? Is there an agreement at the table to engage with what they know is prepared material whenever possible? For you, yes. For me because neither I nor my players would enjoy it, no :) It's possible to see the compatibility that does exist when being objective, even if it's not your preference for you or your players personally.
Headhunter Jones said: Mouse said: I work out character backstories together with the players, giving them - once more - options. Say someone wants to play a halfling I tell them a few details about halfling society, geographical location and so on unless the player already knows about all of that, of course. Depending on the characters' personality, stats, flaws and traits we then move on to how he could have possibly grown up. Nothing goes by me without approval. The process of coming up what happened in the past of a character however is in my opinion altogether different from what is happening around the character in the present or future (though I make it clear to players that if they want something specific like an abrupt alignment change or whatnot they should feel free to voice their wishes). Even with the past they are not really allowed to change the world, really... if there is a one-child policy in my world they can't have a sibling (or of course their parents are in jail for that :) ). Its hard to quantify. I don't really ever give away control (the final yes or no), but I do ask for opinions, ideas and wishes and try to work with that or at least allow a compromise if possible.. if that makes any sense at all :) What do you find are the benefits of this control? What are the drawbacks? Objectively speaking. You're killing me, Headhunter, killing me! Now I have to write wall of texts again that no one is going to read! :) Benefits - no characters that have 13 hobbies plus a job at the same time and therefore can take this and that and that too even though its quite illogical. Collaboration with the players on their ideas and how the group is going to work out. On that note, group cohesion - that the characters won't kill each other on first sight because one of them is, say, a violent murderer and racist. World consistency, especially in games where the players don't know the world (this would apply to something like 'D&D world, but low low magic' as well). Working together on the characters also gives the players insight into my kind of thinking, its basically socialisation, honestly, because I hate small talk. Drawbacks? Yeah, its costs time, but its time well spent and time spent having fun. I honestly don't see any drawbacks as I am really not as mean when it comes to ideas as you might imagine :) It's not railroading if the players are bought into the approach. If, on the other hand, the players think they're playing a sandbox only to be pushed down a plot-based adventure, then that would be railroading. Railroading is about breaking that agreement or understanding, not about the design of an adventure. Thus, a linear, plot-based adventure that presumes player choice isn't actually railroading. (Choosing outcomes normally governed by mechanical resolution in the game's rules is known as "illusionism.") This is fine - but it is your own definition which widely differs from the commonly known and used one. I don't want to risk insulting you by linking dictionaries but urbandictionary f.e. says "A term describing the process of forcing the player characters in a Role-Playing Game to complete a certain task before continuing the adventure.". Yes, of course this can work with buy-in, as anything can, but it is still railroading as its one thing has to be done after another with no diversion or exploration or whatnot. Social contract doesn't matter here, its just a term for one style of play. They don't inherently need prepping - that's just something you choose to do. (Again, all fine, but the point of this thread is reducing prep so I'm pointing it out for others.) The 4e DMG, for example, provides guidelines for creating dungeons randomly and on-the-fly (page 190). As well, we can eschew the traditional "old school" dungeon which is usually a completely mapped and prepped complex in favor of encounter areas (The Fallen Crypt, The Disputed Bridge, The Caverns of Woe, etc.) connected by abstracted means rather than drawn-out corridors or tunnels. With collaborative mapping (mentioned above), it's even less prep still. They don't need prepping if you don't care about internal consistency, which is an absolute no from me. Just rolling randomly for dungeonrooms and their contents? Say goodbye to puzzles (unless you are allowed to prep those? O.o), story and overall the whole dungeon making sense. When I do dungeons I ask why are they there, who has gone in there in the meantime, who created this originally and how? Is the intent to keep something in or people out? Has maybe local wildlife (or something else entirely...) taken refuge here? Just rolling is, once more, completely inadequate. Yes of course you can reduce prep by just winging it all the time but that can all too easily turn into a jumbled, incoherent (story-wise) mess. The dungeons I do usually have about 1 possible combat encounter every 5 rooms or something, the rest are filled with different, more interesting challenges. Consistency with the genre and the established fiction is required in No Myth. This is discussed in the original post. If we're playing D&D, a game of heroic fantasy action/adventure, it comes with certain genre expectations. Star Wars is also a game of heroic fantasy action/adventure. But when we're playing D&D, you can't suddenly hop into your X-wing and go visit Yoda on Dagobah. It is the responsibility of the GM and players to act within the creative constraints agreed upon before play. This includes fiction established extemporaneously. In the "Yes, and..." approach, you are affirming and validating someone's offer and cannot in contradict it in a way that breaks this consistency, even though you are empowered to add to it after the "and" bit. Again, no. Consistency within the genre != world, campaign and story consistency. In some cities it makes sense for the guard to be lenient because I know why, in others they watch people like hawks because I know why. Yes, this could be made up on the fly by me or the players, but then it would be inconsistent. So yeah, no. "There are lots of choices in my game too, I just greatly dislike author or director stance when it comes to the playstyle of my players." How do you think the preference for players being in Actor stance plays into a desire for control by the GM? I find there is correlation (more prep, preference for Actor stance, more control taken during game), but stop short of saying it is causation. I agree there may be correlation, but the reason why I dislike anything but actor stance is simply that it is metagaming and metagaming=bad for oh so many reasons. This might be an oldschool mentality and your approach is so much better and so on but it is nonetheless valid and not uncommon. But yes, of course not having players as producers of content as well as yourself makes for more prep. I don't really think that is even a real question there :) Maybe this is about players not being able to control themselves (I do unintentionally work with a lot of new players), but maybe some just prefer the fog-of-war play where they themselves get to be surprsed or elated or shocked or anything else when they find out about a secret or how an NPC REALLY ticks or an awesome treasure... and get to do that in turn to the NPCs, too, without already knowing how those will react because neither they nor their characters would know. Unless they found out. Do you try to steer them back to prepared material either directly or indirectly? Is there an agreement at the table to engage with what they know is prepared material whenever possible? No. Never. The situation will play out in the background and they might hear about it again (because it escalated or is not an issue anymore or something else) or they might not, depends on the impact the situation would have on the world/region/city they are in... but I never say 'dudes, I prepped this shit, go there damnit!' :) One could possibly argue that them hearing about the situation again is me steering the players, but honestly thats just inernal consistency again so I would very much disagree. Actions & consequences and all that. The agreement at the table regarding this is actually in my houserules. Let me copy & paste it for you (the bolded part already is that way in the rules as well, so not for your benefit or anything): "The GM promises that they aim to play together with the players and vice versa. If you want to see something/are bored/hated something, say so. Never feel forced to just follow a plothook because you think that is what the GM wants. It is not. The GM wants you to play your characters :) Similiarly, constructive criticism should be respected by both sides and can be requested and given in 1on1 sessions if that is preferred." Tüdelü! :)
Mouse said: You're killing me, Headhunter, killing me! Now I have to write wall of texts again that no one is going to read! :) At least two people are reading it - you and me! Plenty of views, too. Maybe we're doing some good. I'm gaining some good insight from the exchange and hope you are as well. Benefits - no characters that have 13 hobbies plus a job at the same time and therefore can take this and that and that too even though its quite illogical. I'm not sure what this means. Would you clarify? Collaboration with the players on their ideas and how the group is going to work out. On that note, group cohesion - that the characters won't kill each other on first sight because one of them is, say, a violent murderer and racist. World consistency, especially in games where the players don't know the world (this would apply to something like 'D&D world, but low low magic' as well). Working together on the characters also gives the players insight into my kind of thinking, its basically socialisation, honestly, because I hate small talk. No Myth and just being a decent person in general accomplishes this with no prep and no need for GM control/approval. "Yes, and..." squares it away nicely, too. Drawbacks? Yeah, its costs time, but its time well spent and time spent having fun. I honestly don't see any drawbacks as I am really not as mean when it comes to ideas as you might imagine :) We agree on the creative process being fun. But I would imagine if many players didn't see GMing as requiring a lot of "work" or being "a job," we might have more GMs. We might also have more GMs if there wasn't a de facto struggle between the ideas of the players and what the GM will or will not approve. (Having done the GM-approves-everything model before, it can be frustrating.) I think these are barriers for entry into being a GM that don't have to exist. This is not to say your particular way of doing things is the issue, but rather the perception of the "job" of being GM being a lot of "work." It needn't be. It's a choice to do that. This is fine - but it is your own definition which widely differs from the commonly known and used one. I don't want to risk insulting you by linking dictionaries but urbandictionary f.e. says "A term describing the process of forcing the player characters in a Role-Playing Game to complete a certain task before continuing the adventure.". Yes, of course this can work with buy-in, as anything can, but it is still railroading as its one thing has to be done after another with no diversion or exploration or whatnot. Social contract doesn't matter here, its just a term for one style of play. It's actually the definition from The Forge, an RPG community that includes a lot of game designers when it was active, and a link to their glossary is in the original post. Note that even the urbandictionary definition mentions "forcing" the PCs. The connotations such a word carries would seem to indicate it is beyond the scope of what the players agreed to and thus a violation of the social contract. If the players agree to complete a certain task before continuing the adventure, then they're no longer being forced and thus not being railroaded. "One thing has to be done after another with no diversion or exploration or whatnot" simply describes a linear adventure ( perhaps with a plot ), not railroading. I think this is important to note, even if it's something of a departure from the topic, because such terms can be seen as pejorative when they are not used clearly. They don't need prepping if you don't care about internal consistency, which is an absolute no from me. Surely you know that this isn't inherently true. A dungeon can be completely improvised and still be internally consistent since it's just a matter of establishing fiction to explain why it is internally consistent. Given that such constructs are generally in a fantasy world, there is plenty of creative space to make this so. Again, it's fine if you like prepping dungeons for the creative process it provides, but this doesn't mean any dungeon that is not prepped in its entirety ahead of time is not internally consistent. A prepped dungeon for that matter can also be internally consistent or not, depending on the skill of the creator. Thus it's not inherently true that prepping a dungeon gives you internal consistency either. Just rolling randomly for dungeonrooms and their contents? Sure. Or improvising with "Yes, and..." and collaborating on it. Six people at the table can figure out why something makes sense. Say goodbye to puzzles (unless you are allowed to prep those? O.o), story and overall the whole dungeon making sense. Puzzles as they are traditionally implemented are a test of the players, not their characters, so your use of them seem consistent with your preferred approach. I don't use them and don't recommend others do. "Story" is a byproduct of play, being a tale of what the characters did while they were in the dungeon. If you mean the history or lore of the dungeon, that's easily created during play as well with no prep required by the GM, even if the dungeon is created randomly. Imagine the interesting tale that might be explored as we try to justify the odd creatures and construction of a particular dungeon location. That's also an improvisational challenge requiring creative thinking by everyone at the table, meaning it adds to the challenge level of the game's core aesthetic. When I do dungeons I ask why are they there, who has gone in there in the meantime, who created this originally and how? Is the intent to keep something in or people out? Has maybe local wildlife (or something else entirely...) taken refuge here? These are all great things to consider. They still needn't be considered ahead of time or prepped by just the GM. This can be handled by everyone at the table during play as a form of exploration. It's also engaging for the GM who is being surprised at the same time as the players. It is truly fulfilling the agenda of "Play to find out what happens." Just rolling is, once more, completely inadequate. Yes of course you can reduce prep by just winging it all the time but that can all too easily turn into a jumbled, incoherent (story-wise) mess. The dungeons I do usually have about 1 possible combat encounter every 5 rooms or something, the rest are filled with different, more interesting challenges. Emphasis mine. I think I've adequately demonstrated above how this is not inherently so, preferences aside. I'm speaking objectively. Again, no. Consistency within the genre != world, campaign and story consistency. In some cities it makes sense for the guard to be lenient because I know why, in others they watch people like hawks because I know why. Yes, this could be made up on the fly by me or the players, but then it would be inconsistent. So yeah, no. (This bit's an edit because I neglected to quote and respond to it originally.) It would not be inherently inconsistent if determined extemporaneously. You just have to respect established fiction. I agree there may be correlation, but the reason why I dislike anything but actor stance is simply that it is metagaming and metagaming=bad for oh so many reasons. This might be an oldschool mentality and your approach is so much better and so on but it is nonetheless valid and not uncommon. But yes, of course not having players as producers of content as well as yourself makes for more prep. I don't really think that is even a real question there :) Metagaming is not inherently bad. It can be used for good or for ill. Rather than police all forms of it to make sure it's not used for ill, I encourage players to use it for good as much as they like. You'd be surprised how much this improves the game experience. The "old school mentality" of metagaming always being bad isn't logically consistent, common though it is. You can't have a game without the metagame, so better to use it rather than police it in my view. I wonder if use of the metagame and the way it empowers players and takes away some GM control is really where the objection to it comes from. Maybe this is about players not being able to control themselves (I do unintentionally work with a lot of new players), but maybe some just prefer the fog-of-war play where they themselves get to be surprsed or elated or shocked or anything else when they find out about a secret or how an NPC REALLY ticks or an awesome treasure... and get to do that in turn to the NPCs, too, without already knowing how those will react because neither they nor their characters would know. Unless they found out. There are surprises, elation, and shock aplenty in the collaborative approach because nobody really knows what anyone else is going to add to the soup, even the GM. Instead of one person creating the content, there are six. Sometimes it's only after some collaboration that even I finally learn how an NPC REALLY ticks. That's really engaging for a GM who is used to having all the answers. The GM is playing to find out what happens as much as the players are. No. Never. The situation will play out in the background and they might hear about it again (because it escalated or is not an issue anymore or something else) or they might not, depends on the impact the situation would have on the world/region/city they are in... but I never say 'dudes, I prepped this shit, go there damnit!' :) One could possibly argue that them hearing about the situation again is me steering the players, but honestly thats just inernal consistency again so I would very much disagree. Actions & consequences and all that. The agreement at the table regarding this is actually in my houserules. Let me copy & paste it for you (the bolded part already is that way in the rules as well, so not for your benefit or anything): "The GM promises that they aim to play together with the players and vice versa. If you want to see something/are bored/hated something, say so. Never feel forced to just follow a plothook because you think that is what the GM wants. It is not. The GM wants you to play your characters :) Similiarly, constructive criticism should be respected by both sides and can be requested and given in 1on1 sessions if that is preferred." Tüdelü! :) No Myth roleplaying recognizes a responsibility of the GM to provide engaging content and the responsibility of the players to engage with it in some way. How much of your prep work have you had to set aside because the players did not engage with it? (I ask knowing already that you likely don't mind doing so since you enjoy the creative process.)
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First of all, I really like this discussion! Secondly, here is a shortened version of my post that's been a wall of text before, because I don't want to look like an ass again: I think you are both right about the good things that these different styles of play can bring to the group. It's just that I think Headhunter Jones' playstyle requires certain types of players that may be more rare than the "traditional" player, so I wouldn't call it a solution to the problem of too much preparation, but rather an alternative that may work for some groups. What I wanted to ask is, why do you recommend against using puzzles? I can see why they could slow down the pace of the game or be frustrating, but that jsut means that this puzzle in particular was badly constructed, not that all puzzles are bad. I can think of many ways to make them interesting for everyone in the group! Regards Lee /edit: I also wanted to say that if a GM really prepares "too much" and the players constantly miss most of it, the solution is simply talking to them and adjusting the preparations. If they never follow the clues and hooks, just don't prepare specific things, but if they like your work and like exploring dungeons you can go ahead and design one for hours. It's just a matter of communication that can save a lot of work already.
Thanks for contributing. I'd like to avoid talking about anyone being "right" or "wrong." What we can discuss is whether one approach has more prep or less prep. Since prep appears to be a barrier to players jumping into the role of GM as it were, I advocate less prep and a method that allows you to do that and run great games. Prep, I'm saying, is a choice that is not necessary to have a good game. Any player can play in No Myth as long as they buy in, as with any approach. Any player can improvise. They already do it all the time even in the "traditional" approach. Check out this excerpt here from a blog I read today : Now let’s do a comparison: every week the players show up and all they have in front of them is their character sheet. They don’t plan out every possible thing they might have to do in the week’s adventure, they just do it. They use the idea of their character to direct how they’re going to improvise. What if you did the same – made simple tools you could reference and improvise as a GM? As for puzzles, you've touched on part of the reason - pacing problems and frustration - and that might occur with even well-constructed puzzles and well-meaning GMs. Aside from generally sucking any excitement out of the scene as people ponder, think it through, and argue with each other, it's really a test of the player and not the character , existing outside the mechanics of the game in most cases. It's also a situation that typically has only one solution and all other solutions are met with "No," or "Nothing happens." That's boring in my view.
Agreed. I, for example, would not prepare much if I ever were to GM a game. It would still not be a game like you described it, but I'd just more or less plan the very basics and take some notes, and then wait for the player's actions and go off of that. As for your concerns about puzzles, yes, they are a challenge for the player. But how else would you make a mental challenge for the characters? Sure, you could do an abstract roll, which in my opinion would be boring, or you could try to roleplay them figuring it out?! But I think that doesn't work either. The puzzle you describe by the way is indeed boring. But here are some examples of how you can avoid that: If the puzzle really requires you to solve it in order to advance and the players fail again and again, then just let them roll to see how long it takes and go with that. That way it won't slow down the game and it won't be boring to the others who can't figure it out - although admittedly, the puzzle was effectively wasted. But if the puzzle could potentially be solved otherwise, just try to incorporate the player's ideas (even if they are "wrong") into an alternative solution, or if they have no clue, present some other alternatives to maybe go around the puzzle completely. All of these ways to make puzzles more interesting have been utilized in the campaign I'm in. For example, once there was basically a riddle that we HAD to solve to enter the dungeon. But since all the players who COULD know the solution didn't know it (it had to do with the world's lore and they all forgot), we rolled an intelligence check and managed to get the right solution the next in-game day. Another example would be the one time we talked a NPC into helping us with a lever puzzle and shifting rooms. We also exploited the rotating room system in the middle of the dungeon, which was admittedly a cheap way to avoid splitting the party and also avoid any danger, but we only managed to do this through our own creative thinking, so this was kind of like our reward. Yet another example would be the one time we had to find and transport a statue for a ritual to get rid of a great evil. We didn't find it, but it was obviously important. In the end we were able to perform the ritual with a small toy instead of the statue, which would have actually made sense in the story, although it also might have bad consequences for the future (maybe that thing could come back from it's banishment because the "materials" a.k.a. the toy can't send it back properly). But enough derailment by me, my point is: Puzzles can be cool, and your idea of playing can also be cool.
Headhunter Jones said: At least two people are reading it - you and me! Plenty of views, too. Maybe we're doing some good. I'm gaining some good insight from the exchange and hope you are as well. Thats fair - as long as you aren't extrapolating what I think to what everybody thinks, but I doubt you are the type that does that kind of thing. :) "Benefits - no characters that have 13 hobbies plus a job at the same time and therefore can take this and that and that too even though its quite illogical." I'm not sure what this means. Would you clarify? Alright, example time again! This si something that actually happened and I said no to (but I still love to have this player in my game, obviously, just disclaimer and all that). A player ceates a very ambitious young man (let's say he is 23, so not that much life experience yet). This means he is very dedicated to his work which is soldier, so he has f.e. access to a gun and associated skills which another character would not have. Additionally, he tells me his character would have helped out at a local vet in his free time so that he can get a skill called Handle Animal. Fine, I agree. Also, he has a hobby, reading up on survival tactics (-> Survival Skill). I agree again. He moves on to also want to have a profound interest in plants and raising them and everything (-> Knowledge Nature, edible plants). This was the point where I put a stop to it and said that a person dedicated to their work + helping out at a vet in their free time + reading up on survival skills in their free time ... has just about not much more free time to give and that he would have to choose what his character focused on while he had access to all of this (which was only about age 14 and up). You might judge differently and I am sure many other GMs would as well. I prefer building characters together with my players exactly because I can immediately work out compromises or stop something from going too far - instead of later taking it away because the other players have not thought up a maze-like backgroundstory so they could cover everything they would love to have but probably shouldn't. :) Basically, for me its the difference between saying 'yes but' or 'yes and' or 'no, but' or 'maybe' or 'no' in the moment or after a player has already fallen in love with an idea and is (rightfully so) going to be pissed off if I take it away. Of course (I can already see your response ;) ), with collaberating and creating a world together this does not happen as there is no overpowered or danger of stealing too much spotlight because a character has too many varied skills and so on and so forth. This was just to clarify what I see as a benefit. No Myth and just being a decent person in general accomplishes this with no prep and no need for GM control/approval. "Yes, and..." squares it away nicely, too. Yes, but only if you are willing to use the No Myth approach. And I hates it! Teasing a bit, forgive me. :) We agree on the creative process being fun. But I would imagine if many players didn't see GMing as requiring a lot of "work" or being "a job," we might have more GMs. We might also have more GMs if there wasn't a de facto struggle between the ideas of the players and what the GM will or will not approve. (Having done the GM-approves-everything model before, it can be frustrating.) I think these are barriers for entry into being a GM that don't have to exist. This is not to say your particular way of doing things is the issue, but rather the perception of the "job" of being GM being a lot of "work." It needn't be. It's a choice to do that. I think this really is the core of your argument here... but wouldn't that only produce GMs who, by the very nature of No Myth, actually will only ever GM No Myth because everything else is too much work. Where would I play then? :p On a more serious note, I actually kind of like that GMing is work... it makes it easier to find out who is a lazy GM and not worth paying attention to (for me! opinion and all that) and who isn't. No Myth could only work for me if I am going into the group with the assumption that I will write a story together and my character will only die if I allow it. But... thats not a roleplaying game for me. Its writing a story together - which I have done too, don't get me wrong, and its fun and done in third person past tense and is usually done via play by email. At least when I was young and all that *cough* :) But... yeah, everything you mentioned in the OP here is exactly how a pbem game is played as you as the writer know the thoughts of the other characters but still have to uh 'control' yourself (as much or little as necessary) and work everything into a hopefully entertaining story. I guess that could be the reason why I truly can't connect it with tabletop rpgs. Its an entirely different experience, just like playing a strategy game with fog of war and one without. Surely you know that this isn't inherently true. A dungeon can be completely improvised and still be internally consistent since it's just a matter of establishing fiction to explain why it is internally consistent. Given that such constructs are generally in a fantasy world, there is plenty of creative space to make this so. Again, it's fine if you like prepping dungeons for the creative process it provides, but this doesn't mean any dungeon that is not prepped in its entirety ahead of time is not internally consistent. A prepped dungeon for that matter can also be internally consistent or not, depending on the skill of the creator. Thus it's not inherently true that prepping a dungeon gives you internal consistency either. Inherently? I would say yes. Absolutely & definitely for every case? No, but again, it certainly leads there much more easily. Sure, there are GMs out there that just throw a few rooms together, put an encounter here, a trap there, MacGuffin over yonder and done. I couldn't work that way. I much prefer my players (and their characters) figuring out just why (yes, same emphasis, sorry :) ) it is internally consistent than them struggling to come up with reasons why Boggarts, Batswarms, Skeletons, Zombies, Golems and Nymphs are all in the same dungeon, potentially even next to each other with only a creaky door separating them. I know, extreme example again but with random rolls you just don't know - with prep, you do. As always, it depends on what one cares more about. Me? I am a perfectionist. Which actually brings me back to something we talked about earlier - the whole part about maybe needing control as a GM correlating with a preference for Actor stance? As a player, I am a method actor. You may laugh, but I have cried before because my character did. Online. Yeah, I know, I go too deep sometimes *shrugs* Anyway, my point is more about maybe the kind of person that GMs this way? Not their lifestyle or anything, but I am definitely antisocial and a lack of control. Just more data for you *shrug* It [[player-created content]] would not be inherently inconsistent if determined extemporaneously. You just have to respect established fiction. That is assuming the players know all of the established fiction. If I were to show you my (locked) Campaign Wiki, you would be buried under all that background information :) Or maybe not, what do I know. But yes, I know that No Myth only refers to something that has been mentioned to the players. Which is precisely why I don't like it. Control! My world! Uga! :) (Hilariously, pbem would once more be the case where this would absolutely not apply for me). Aaand I think my post is getting too long, it won't allow me to continue. So! To be continued! (Thats a threat)
Lee P. said: Agreed. I, for example, would not prepare much if I ever were to GM a game. It would still not be a game like you described it, but I'd just more or less plan the very basics and take some notes, and then wait for the player's actions and go off of that. As for your concerns about puzzles, yes, they are a challenge for the player. But how else would you make a mental challenge for the characters? Sure, you could do an abstract roll, which in my opinion would be boring, or you could try to roleplay them figuring it out?! But I think that doesn't work either. In D&D 4e, you can use skill challenges. I wrote a few to govern the PCs working out puzzles without actually defining what the puzzle was. I would present the players with attributes of the puzzle, complications to be overcome, such as "ancient context," "shifting runes," "inscrutable cipher," and the like. I would then ask them what these things looked like and what they thought they meant with an eye toward building off what the other players had already established. Skill checks were used in accordance with the rules for skill challenges to overcome these complications. By the time they solved the "puzzle," the puzzle itself was created collaboratively and the solution governed by actual game mechanics based upon character skill, not player skill. The puzzle you describe by the way is indeed boring. But here are some examples of how you can avoid that: If the puzzle really requires you to solve it in order to advance and the players fail again and again, then just let them roll to see how long it takes and go with that. That way it won't slow down the game and it won't be boring to the others who can't figure it out - although admittedly, the puzzle was effectively wasted. But if the puzzle could potentially be solved otherwise, just try to incorporate the player's ideas (even if they are "wrong") into an alternative solution, or if they have no clue, present some other alternatives to maybe go around the puzzle completely. Emphasis mine. Not just the puzzle, but potentially time and player engagement. Those things are precious, at least to me, and I won't risk them on something that tests player skills and not character skills. All of these ways to make puzzles more interesting have been utilized in the campaign I'm in. For example, once there was basically a riddle that we HAD to solve to enter the dungeon. But since all the players who COULD know the solution didn't know it (it had to do with the world's lore and they all forgot), we rolled an intelligence check and managed to get the right solution the next in-game day. What happens if you fail the check? Another example would be the one time we talked a NPC into helping us with a lever puzzle and shifting rooms. We also exploited the rotating room system in the middle of the dungeon, which was admittedly a cheap way to avoid splitting the party and also avoid any danger, but we only managed to do this through our own creative thinking, so this was kind of like our reward. Yet another example would be the one time we had to find and transport a statue for a ritual to get rid of a great evil. We didn't find it, but it was obviously important. In the end we were able to perform the ritual with a small toy instead of the statue, which would have actually made sense in the story, although it also might have bad consequences for the future (maybe that thing could come back from it's banishment because the "materials" a.k.a. the toy can't send it back properly). As long as there isn't One True Solution required to move forward in the adventure, it's not too big a deal. But then some of the things we're talking about here aren't true puzzles in the "logic puzzle" sense which is traditional in games like D&D. You can google up "Puzzles and D&D" and without too much trouble see all the problems people report with puzzles in adventures. It's just not worth it. Puzzles are fun on their own. They don't need to exist in RPGs.
Headhunter Jones said: You can't have a game without the metagame, so better to use it rather than police it in my view. Do you mean asking the GM questions? To steal from you: Could you please clarify? I wonder if use of the metagame and the way it empowers players and takes away some GM control is really where the objection to it comes from. I don't think so, as with (again, sorry for bringing it up so often) pbem it is quite common for everyone to know everything and still work together on it. Acting out of character is still kind of a term there, but it is a lot less common. Maybe because the third person gives distance between players and characters? Sometimes it's only after some collaboration that even I finally learn how an NPC REALLY ticks. That's really engaging for a GM who is used to having all the answers. The GM is playing to find out what happens as much as the players are. When I imagine that kind of scenario it always creates a bit of a stressful feeling - I like to improvise, but I don't think I am good enough to potentially rewrite a huge part of the world every session. Now that I think about it, isn't that a huge downside to the No Myth approach? Every player has to be creative enough to add something to the game on a regular basis. What about the quiet ones? What about the awkward ones? What about the seriousface lawful ones? Don't get me wrong, with my current campaign style (sandbox, character driven, yadda yadda you don't want to hear this again) I look for engaged players too, but I still had a few quiet ones who were just fine with me. I prodded them mercilessly (only so far as they enjoyed it!) :) What if I as a player just want to relax and dive into my characters' skin without worrying about world building and the metagame? How much of your prep work have you had to set aside because the players did not engage with it? (I ask knowing already that you likely don't mind doing so since you enjoy the creative process.) Players out if you are reading this you evil people. You were warned! Depends. Subplots? Some. f.e. I created a whole thing with statues and temples and only clerics having access to those and my cleric? Not interested at all. Fine, maybe the next one will. At the very least its flavor for the world :) Bigger stuff however? It isn't lost. At all. I had an old gnome ask for help retrieving an old book from a tower - the group chose to go elsewhere. Guess what, now the old guy tried to go there on his own as he is convinced it is the source of a plague going around, hilarity ensues. Will they just find his remains one day? Maybe! Will they encounter him as a BBEG? Maybe...! *desperately tries to look innocent* If, on the other hand, my players should not spot a plot at all for one reason or another - I do hold the right to *ahem* move it a bit. Don't judge me! (I really do seem to be in a weird mood now) Lee P. said: I also wanted to say that if a GM really prepares "too much" and the players constantly miss most of it, the solution is simply talking to them and adjusting the preparations. If they never follow the clues and hooks, just don't prepare specific things, but if they like your work and like exploring dungeons you can go ahead and design one for hours. It's just a matter of communication that can save a lot of work already. Agreed! If my players slug through a murder mystery and don't like it? Whelp, no more murder mysteries (unless they give me ideas how to do it differently, obviously). I always tell my players that I love questions and I love opinions - they are just so damn worried about offending me or something that it takes ages to get anything out of them! Argh! *throws pillow* Headhunter Jones said: As for puzzles, you've touched on part of the reason - pacing problems and frustration - and that might occur with even well-constructed puzzles and well-meaning GMs. Aside from generally sucking any excitement out of the scene as people ponder, think it through, and argue with each other, it's really a test of the player and not the character , existing outside the mechanics of the game in most cases. It's also a situation that typically has only one solution and all other solutions are met with "No," or "Nothing happens." That's boring in my view. Yeah, thats not how puzzles should be done - same rules apply to skill challenges. There should always be an alternative. For exaaample (hate me yet?) Players get out! in a dungeon I have is a blinkdog. He has been placed there and instructed that he will die if he lets any humanoids past. Solution A: Fight and kill the dog. Simple, and blink dogs are an interesting fight. Solution B: Handle Animal though its a tough one the dog will let the people pass - and die in front of their eyes after they have bonded, because I am evil. Solution C: Turn into puppies! Which is a trap from another room. But ah, as puppies you can't open heavy stone doors. One needs to hold it... Or you just move the thing that turns you into puppies over there. Or any other solution that makes sense, really. For puzzles I always make sure they are either not a stopgap/mandatory/just give hints for later stuff or that they always have more than one solution. No need to think of more than one, though, since in this case I very much allow and encourage creative solutions I haven't thought of. On the rest I do agree with Lee P.'s response on more examples and that if it really feels off you can still give that Int roll - not to check if your character knows the solution, but to determine how long it takes to get there. I often use that with other skills too, actually *ponders* And Lee, you are not derailing, stop saying that. *pokes*
For puzzles I always make sure they are either not a stopgap/mandatory/just give hints for later stuff or that they always have more than one solution. [...] you can still give that Int roll - not to check if your character knows the solution, but to determine how long it takes to get there. That's exactly what I was trying to say with my mess of a post up there. And it also answers this question: What happens if you fail the check? At least that's what I think the GM did; it's what I would have done. (just trying to determine how long we take. It was actually kind of important I think, since I made the nearby Elves angry and they were looking for us. If the GM was a bit more evil, he could have used this against us!) And Lee, you are not derailing, stop saying that. *pokes* I guess it's just me being paranoid from all these traumatic forum experiences I have :D Other than that, I still like puzzles. Also, I will post more until I have something semi-intelligent to say again. By the way, sorry for my horrible quoting skills. I'm pretty sure the devil himself programmed the quotes in this forum. Regards Lee
Mouse said: Thats fair - as long as you aren't extrapolating what I think to what everybody thinks, but I doubt you are the type that does that kind of thing. :) Definitely not everybody, but your approach is probably more common than mine, at least with most mainstream games like D&D. Alright, example time again! This si something that actually happened and I said no to (but I still love to have this player in my game, obviously, just disclaimer and all that). A player ceates a very ambitious young man (let's say he is 23, so not that much life experience yet). This means he is very dedicated to his work which is soldier, so he has f.e. access to a gun and associated skills which another character would not have. Additionally, he tells me his character would have helped out at a local vet in his free time so that he can get a skill called Handle Animal. Fine, I agree. Also, he has a hobby, reading up on survival tactics (-> Survival Skill). I agree again. He moves on to also want to have a profound interest in plants and raising them and everything (-> Knowledge Nature, edible plants). This was the point where I put a stop to it and said that a person dedicated to their work + helping out at a vet in their free time + reading up on survival skills in their free time ... has just about not much more free time to give and that he would have to choose what his character focused on while he had access to all of this (which was only about age 14 and up). You might judge differently and I am sure many other GMs would as well. I prefer building characters together with my players exactly because I can immediately work out compromises or stop something from going too far - instead of later taking it away because the other players have not thought up a maze-like backgroundstory so they could cover everything they would love to have but probably shouldn't. :) Basically, for me its the difference between saying 'yes but' or 'yes and' or 'no, but' or 'maybe' or 'no' in the moment or after a player has already fallen in love with an idea and is (rightfully so) going to be pissed off if I take it away. Of course (I can already see your response ;) ), with collaberating and creating a world together this does not happen as there is no overpowered or danger of stealing too much spotlight because a character has too many varied skills and so on and so forth. This was just to clarify what I see as a benefit. I'm still not sure I completely understand. In any case, if the player was making choices that are rules-legal and that abide by the genre expectations, then I don't see why the GM would need to be editing those choices. If the player is making rules-legal choices that aren't so great relative to the game system because he is a novice player, advice is definitely warranted. But to put yourself in the position of taking away someone else's choices seems to be unnecessary to me. Unbalanced characters is a game system problem - if you value balance among classes, then choose a game system that puts that design conceit as a priority (such as D&D 4e). Spotlight hogging is a player problem that isn't necessarily fixed by negating or denying choices. I think this really is the core of your argument here... but wouldn't that only produce GMs who, by the very nature of No Myth, actually will only ever GM No Myth because everything else is too much work. Where would I play then? :p This is a valid question even if you meant it in a non-serious way. I suspect you'd do fine and have fun in a No Myth game, especially since you're already a GM and authoring and directing is something you can already do. You'd have five other people telling you the details of the world as we play. If you didn't want to add new details, you don't have to except when asked to. On a more serious note, I actually kind of like that GMing is work... it makes it easier to find out who is a lazy GM and not worth paying attention to (for me! opinion and all that) and who isn't. If the game is fun, what matter how much prep the GM actually does? Anyone who plays in our games might suspect that I do a ton of work to prep them. I don't, though I do like to spend some time making my Roll20 presentation nice-looking. This is something that I choose to do, but don't need to do. No Myth could only work for me if I am going into the group with the assumption that I will write a story together and my character will only die if I allow it. But... thats not a roleplaying game for me. Its writing a story together - which I have done too, don't get me wrong, and its fun and done in third person past tense and is usually done via play by email. At least when I was young and all that *cough* :) But... yeah, everything you mentioned in the OP here is exactly how a pbem game is played as you as the writer know the thoughts of the other characters but still have to uh 'control' yourself (as much or little as necessary) and work everything into a hopefully entertaining story. I guess that could be the reason why I truly can't connect it with tabletop rpgs. Its an entirely different experience, just like playing a strategy game with fog of war and one without. You're creating a story together in every RPG, even if you aren't trying. No Myth recognizes this explicitly in my view and focuses on the things that make the play experience exciting and collaborative. Inherently? I would say yes. Absolutely & definitely for every case? No, but again, it certainly leads there much more easily. Sure, there are GMs out there that just throw a few rooms together, put an encounter here, a trap there, MacGuffin over yonder and done. I couldn't work that way. I much prefer my players (and their characters) figuring out just why (yes, same emphasis, sorry :) ) it is internally consistent than them struggling to come up with reasons why Boggarts, Batswarms, Skeletons, Zombies, Golems and Nymphs are all in the same dungeon, potentially even next to each other with only a creaky door separating them. I know, extreme example again but with random rolls you just don't know - with prep, you do. I'm not sure how you can say it's inherently so or what basis you have to say that it "leads there much more easily." It's not an extreme example and I already have ideas as to why that can be. Add 5 players to that mix validating and adding onto those reasons and you really have something. With prep, one person knows ahead of time and five others may or may not figure it out. Without prep and with collaboration, you know when you need to know (i.e. when it actually comes into play) and the GM can be just as surprised as the players when you do figure it out together. I should note at this point (and should have done earlier) that the collaborative process I'm talking about isn't strictly No Myth as described in the original post, but works well with it. It's touched on a bit in the practical techniques section. As always, it depends on what one cares more about. Me? I am a perfectionist. Which actually brings me back to something we talked about earlier - the whole part about maybe needing control as a GM correlating with a preference for Actor stance? As a player, I am a method actor. You may laugh, but I have cried before because my character did. Online. Yeah, I know, I go too deep sometimes *shrugs* Anyway, my point is more about maybe the kind of person that GMs this way? Not their lifestyle or anything, but I am definitely antisocial and a lack of control. Just more data for you *shrug* That's all good. Have you read about Stanislavski vs. Brecht in tabletop roleplaying ? That is assuming the players know all of the established fiction. If I were to show you my (locked) Campaign Wiki, you would be buried under all that background information :) Or maybe not, what do I know. But yes, I know that No Myth only refers to something that has been mentioned to the players. Which is precisely why I don't like it. Control! My world! Uga! :) (Hilariously, pbem would once more be the case where this would absolutely not apply for me). Aaand I think my post is getting too long, it won't allow me to continue. So! To be continued! (Thats a threat) The players do know all of the established fiction because they were there when it was established and were likely to have established it themselves (which makes it easier to remember since it is often their own idea). It's not in a secret campaign wiki. It's in the open at the table. If someone forgets something, then it's just a matter of reminding them. As you say, in No Myth, nothing exists until it's put into play.
Mouse said: Headhunter Jones said: You can't have a game without the metagame, so better to use it rather than police it in my view. Do you mean asking the GM questions? To steal from you: Could you please clarify? Sure. Meta information will always exist because, for example, the rules and mechanics of the game being played do not per se exist in the actual game world. Thus, players are constantly accessing and using meta information. We can spend our time worrying about it and trying to stamp it out or we can just agree to use meta information in a way that enhances the game rather than takes away from it. I don't think so, as with (again, sorry for bringing it up so often) pbem it is quite common for everyone to know everything and still work together on it. Acting out of character is still kind of a term there, but it is a lot less common. Maybe because the third person gives distance between players and characters? According to the definitions previously referenced, "out-of-character" just means "third person." It's still roleplaying if the statements being made reflect decisions a character would also make given in-game context. What I was positing is whether GMs crack down on use of the metagame because it provides players an advantage, giving them control beyond the four corners of their character sheet. If so, this seems to be a failure to realize that you can't stamp it out and if you can't beat 'em, as they say, join 'em, and get everyone on the same page with how to use the metagame to make positive additions to the game instead of mere advantages. When I imagine that kind of scenario it always creates a bit of a stressful feeling - I like to improvise, but I don't think I am good enough to potentially rewrite a huge part of the world every session. Ah, but you're not re writing it. You're writing it as you play since you didn't prep much or anything at all ahead of time. As well, improvisation is a skill and a valuable one a that in this hobby. It improves with use. Now that I think about it, isn't that a huge downside to the No Myth approach? Every player has to be creative enough to add something to the game on a regular basis. What about the quiet ones? What about the awkward ones? What about the seriousface lawful ones? Don't get me wrong, with my current campaign style (sandbox, character driven, yadda yadda you don't want to hear this again) I look for engaged players too, but I still had a few quiet ones who were just fine with me. I prodded them mercilessly (only so far as they enjoyed it!) :) What if I as a player just want to relax and dive into my characters' skin without worrying about world building and the metagame? Except where you might be prompted to do so, you can add only the information that relates to your character. Be a feature instead of a lead. If and when you want the challenge of collaborative improvisation on top of the other challenges being presented in the game, then jump in. Studies have shown that the more challenging a game is, especially across multiple aesthetics, the more engaged players become. Outside of people with legitimate social anxiety, I have found that quiet people are that way because they fear rejection of their ideas, which doesn't happen in the collaborative approach. Once they realize that, they open right up. Players out if you are reading this you evil people. You were warned! Depends. Subplots? Some. f.e. I created a whole thing with statues and temples and only clerics having access to those and my cleric? Not interested at all. Fine, maybe the next one will. At the very least its flavor for the world :) Bigger stuff however? It isn't lost. At all. I had an old gnome ask for help retrieving an old book from a tower - the group chose to go elsewhere. Guess what, now the old guy tried to go there on his own as he is convinced it is the source of a plague going around, hilarity ensues. Will they just find his remains one day? Maybe! Will they encounter him as a BBEG? Maybe...! *desperately tries to look innocent* If, on the other hand, my players should not spot a plot at all for one reason or another - I do hold the right to *ahem* move it a bit. Don't judge me! (I really do seem to be in a weird mood now) Fun with the creative process aside, I would view prep being wasted as a bad thing and I suspect anyone looking at the GM as daunting because of the "work" involved doubly so. Agreed! If my players slug through a murder mystery and don't like it? Whelp, no more murder mysteries (unless they give me ideas how to do it differently, obviously). I always tell my players that I love questions and I love opinions - they are just so damn worried about offending me or something that it takes ages to get anything out of them! Argh! *throws pillow* Everybody now: "Anything works with buy-in!" Yeah, thats not how puzzles should be done - same rules apply to skill challenges. There should always be an alternative. For exaaample (hate me yet?) Players get out! in a dungeon I have is a blinkdog. He has been placed there and instructed that he will die if he lets any humanoids past. Solution A: Fight and kill the dog. Simple, and blink dogs are an interesting fight. Solution B: Handle Animal though its a tough one the dog will let the people pass - and die in front of their eyes after they have bonded, because I am evil. Solution C: Turn into puppies! Which is a trap from another room. But ah, as puppies you can't open heavy stone doors. One needs to hold it... Or you just move the thing that turns you into puppies over there. Or any other solution that makes sense, really. In context, this isn't a puzzle as being discussed, at least with regard to what I was referring to - logic puzzles or the like that are quite traditional in games like D&D. What you're describing is a situation with a lot of contingencies prepped for it, which is consistent with the prep work you say you do. In terms of prep work, contingencies by their very nature are often wasted effort since most if not all will never come into play. (Wasted in the sense of "never going to see the light of day" rather than "you wasted your time" which is a value statement on your time that I can't make.) For puzzles I always make sure they are either not a stopgap/mandatory/just give hints for later stuff or that they always have more than one solution. No need to think of more than one, though, since in this case I very much allow and encourage creative solutions I haven't thought of. On the rest I do agree with Lee P.'s response on more examples and that if it really feels off you can still give that Int roll - not to check if your character knows the solution, but to determine how long it takes to get there. I often use that with other skills too, actually *ponders* This is an example of failing forward which is fine by me. I still don't see any value to including puzzles in an RPG that doesn't explicitly support it. As an aside, which game systems have "Make an INT check to get a clue" as an actual game mechanic?
Headhunter Jones said: I'm still not sure I completely understand. In any case, if the player was making choices that are rules-legal and that abide by the genre expectations, then I don't see why the GM would need to be editing those choices. If the player is making rules-legal choices that aren't so great relative to the game system because he is a novice player, advice is definitely warranted. But to put yourself in the position of taking away someone else's choices seems to be unnecessary to me. Unbalanced characters is a game system problem - if you value balance among classes, then choose a game system that puts that design conceit as a priority (such as D&D 4e). Spotlight hogging is a player problem that isn't necessarily fixed by negating or denying choices. In this case it was mostly about the character having access to skills (because the player is clever) that the other characters wouldn't have. Kind of min-maxing, but not in an inherently broken way, just something that would have naturally given him more opportunities to shine/be in the foreground than the others at the beginning and therefore immediately establish as the party face without giving the others even a chance. Kind of like if someone multiclasses into rogue so he can find traps and the like and the rogue is forced into the sidelines. Sorry, hard to explain :) This is a valid question even if you meant it in a non-serious way. I suspect you'd do fine and have fun in a No Myth game, especially since you're already a GM and authoring and directing is something you can already do. You'd have five other people telling you the details of the world as we play. If you didn't want to add new details, you don't have to except when asked to. But isn't the point of the No Myth style less work for the GM? That actually makes it absolutely necessary for (at the very least) the majority of the players being interested in adding stuff to the story/world/whatnot - if they aren't or only 1 or 2 are, then that shifts the burden back to the GM, no? Its still GMing thats focused very much on improvisation, but still to me it seems that 'everyone contributes' is kind of the point of No Myth which makes one wonder how many players would actually like that. You are right that I would probably be fine with No Myth - been there, done that, but once more it is an entirely different experience for me. Its crafting a story and always keeping the story in mind, my character just helps crafting the story... but when I actually want to play in a roleplaying game, I don't want to do that. I want to just be that pacifist Sorceress exploring a world and trying to survive, make connections, contacts, allthethings. I want to think about the metagame as little as possible (which is probably one reason why I dislike long (longer than half an hour or something) combat scenes as a player. I am weird that way. If the game is fun, what matter how much prep the GM actually does? Anyone who plays in our games might suspect that I do a ton of work to prep them. I don't, though I do like to spend some time making my Roll20 presentation nice-looking. This is something that I choose to do, but don't need to do. Thats the point, a GM that doesn't care doesn't make me care, meaning it won't be fun for me. That doesn't mean he has to prep tons of stuff, but it does mean that it can't be 'unavoidable combat encounter leads to item x which needs to be used to get to location y where combat starts again no matter what player characters do...' maybe even with some paragraphs being read to the players as its all just about following the railroady module or the same stuff over and over again. I want my character choices to matter, which has (in my experience) never been the case with GMs that don't care. Once more hard to quantify, but a GM that cares (just like players that care) will usually ask more questions, give more feedback and be more communicative about game stuff in general I think. You're creating a story together in every RPG, even if you aren't trying. No Myth recognizes this explicitly in my view and focuses on the things that make the play experience exciting and collaborative. We covered this already, Headhunter, and yes I will agree again that you are creating a story together all the time, but you can't tell me there isn't a difference between my style and yours when it comes to the amount of story creation between the GM and the players. One is focused on your character and one is focused on the overall story. Don't act like you don't know. :p Besides, No Myth makes the play experience exciting and collaborative for those that enjoy it. Just pointing it out for any readers. It is not salvation for everyone out there. What I was positing is whether GMs crack down on use of the metagame because it provides players an advantage, giving them control beyond the four corners of their character sheet. Depends. If a character shouldn't know that trolls need to be killed with fire/acid or they will get up again but the player does and uses that knowledge, thats something I would call an advantage. Same with other monsters and their stats, AC, HP, yadda. This can be somewhat worked aorund with homebrewing monsters or changing their stats around (hilarity ensues), but in general? Yes, its an advantage, and it should not be used. You are probably going to disagree with that :) Ah, but you're not re writing it. You're writing it as you play since you didn't prep much or anything at all ahead of time. As well, improvisation is a skill and a valuable one a that in this hobby. It improves with use. I don't know about you but when I improvise an NPC, a location, anything really I always have a lot about that element already in my head. How the NPC behaves, motivations, what is in that location and why - it just pops in. If that is then not immediately (and ALL of it) declared by me it could still be changed with No Myth, which does actually mean that I am rewriting the canon in my head. Of course it wouldn't be a big deal a lot of the time, but still a minor annoyance for me - which would lead to frustration over time, I think. Fun with the creative process aside, I would view prep being wasted as a bad thing and I suspect anyone looking at the GM as daunting because of the "work" involved doubly so. But... its not being wasted. I just explained to you how its not, that things pop up again if they have consequences or that they get *cough* moved if they were not discovered at all or that another, future character will get a go at it. Everything is still being used. What you're describing is a situation with a lot of contingencies prepped for it, which is consistent with the prep work you say you do. In terms of prep work, contingencies by their very nature are often wasted effort since most if not all will never come into play. (Wasted in the sense of "never going to see the light of day" rather than "you wasted your time" which is a value statement on your time that I can't make.) I might have explained myself badly - sorry about that. To clarify: I only prepped the dog, his motivation for keeping people away from that door and the puppy trap elsewhere. Did not actually prep any of the solutions (unless you include adding the dogs' stat block to a sheet in roll20), they are just stuff people considered when they were in the dungeon. But in general I don't see it as a huge amount of prep to think of a puzzle with at least one solution and allow other solutions that 'make sense' in play. Like going past the dog in puppy form :) This is an example of failing forward which is fine by me. I still don't see any value to including puzzles in an RPG that doesn't explicitly support it. As an aside, which game systems have "Make an INT check to get a clue" as an actual game mechanic? I don't think there is anything official/specific about that, but some people do play that way, actually. Had a player for a little while who didn't mesh well with me and the rest of the group because he literally asked to roll int and I would give him ideas what to do, so... that was a different experience for me. But yeah, as I said, I generally only use these rolls in terms of how long it takes to get to a solution/accomplish the task and how well they do. --------- Overall, I would still say that No Myth can only work with a group of engaged players that are willing to put in more work than 'usual', which I would think is the hard part. I still can't quite fathom that rolling randomly for everything would actually work out every time to make sense and create a logical story in-game but to each their own.
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Mouse said: Overall, I would still say that No Myth can only work with a group of engaged players that are willing to put in more work than 'usual', which I would think is the hard part. (Incoming wall of text on my part..what was 2 paragraphs grew and grew...sorry) After reading all of the posts, This is what kept chewing around in my mind, without being able to put my thumb on it in words, until someone said it. No Myth seems to rely on having well seasoned, experienced, unbiased and 'fair play' Players that are honorable and want to make a world that's fair and balanced as much as the GM is trying to..but that's rarely the case. Not saying your job is to stop them from enjoying playing that way..but to keep it in a balance so its fun for them, but not ruining it for the other players. While the appeal of No Myth is a temptation I have a lot, I also realize perhaps its not that I cant do it well as a GM, its my players cannot contribute to it unbiased on their part. Giving them any input of the world itself, they would take advantage of any and every rule that has grey area to make each to to their advantage. Like allowing them to add items to a room, they wouldn't think "what would be in here" they think "what could I add that I could use to get a huge advantage in case I need it, but at the same time plausible enough for the GM to allow it" Like if I had them in a mechbay, and they got to pick items, one WOULD pick the biggest mech he just happens to know how to drive, and it just happens to be stocked full of the highest damage ammo, and its also unlocked (because they was working on it) and the keys in it ready to go....cant have that, since the mech is 100x more powerful than they are now..So i'd get in an argument of "we all know why you added it" to get a reply of "well its a MECH BAY, you saying it cant possibly be a chance of it there?..."..Yes there is a chance, but you being able to add things made it a certainty that it will ALWAYS be around when there is a chance. There might be a 1% chance, giving you the ability to call the % roll (so to speak) means he just gets to say "yep, it rolled a 1, its there" Which perhaps its my viewpoint, but not every situation should be in their favor. you cant have an epic struggle if there is no struggle. The best tasting victories are the ones you are at a lost for how to approach, and only a hint of whats going on, with no info of why things are doing what it is..but manage to get thru smelling like roses and the victor. They would (and do now) use player-character knowledge to make/do things that should be a 50/50 type decision on the characters part, into a 99/1 with what they know..and 'defend' it by going "well MAYBE he just chooses to do that, its a possibility.' And I couldnt counter it on No myth, even knowing hes deciding off what HE knows, and not the character. And im of the old mindset player knowledge vs PC knowledge is 2 different universes. Metagaming is sloppy decision making using godlike knowledge to twist fate in your favor unfairly to avoid undesirable outcomes. I try not to do it as a GM running NPCs or as a player running a character. Or on the aspect of not needing to roll to do things, they would exploit that. If they KNEW to find a door, all they had to do was say "I search until I find something" they would. They would have not one problem with saying they spent 12 hours searching a 5x5 room for a door if they knew it was there somewhere..even if its a useless door to a broom closet. since out of game it would pass in a few seconds. They would more than willingly do a mexican stand off of "I can say Im searching for days if need be...I can sit here all day saying I search for an hour more, until you as GM say I eventually found something". That would cause me to have to impose 'time critical limits' of other things they got to get to doing, impeding them from spending 12 hours doing it..which seems wrong to do...forcing them on a schedule 24-7 so they dont do a "well I got all the time in the world, I'm going to search for something in an outward spiral pattern, let me know when I find something". They would literally put their characters on auto-pilot until they, by trial and error, hit something worth describing, but then get no feeling of self worth or accomplishment knowing they COULD have missed it, but their own success roll means they found it. And while I try to be as un-railroadish as possible, I go for more a sandbox 'the world moves as it will, you just can change the course of parts of it you interact with, be it good or bad". I think the GM's job is just that..to build the world as unbiased and balanced as possible, challenging the players to the edge of thier limits so they feel epic when they cross the line of success they didn't before. That the players are trying to make it thru..and their input into it is what their characters can and cannot manage to do in it, with what they know as characters, and what chain reaction it causes to ripple out in the whole world as they come across them over time. No Myth gaming remind me of playing dragons lair, you make a few choices based upon outside game knowledge of the risks and results, and watch the pre decided cutscene of the results of it depending how your choices work or not. Which isn't saying it isn't a viable way to play. IF people have fun ANY way of playing is viable. The uncertainty of success rolls on things is what makes an RPG to me. Every roll shouldn't be epic, some should be mundane. Some should SEEM mundane to the players, while having huge impacts they dont know about, or find out later. Time spent on pointing out they have downtime, and a 'lull' of activity reminds them the characters have strengths and weaknesses, and real lives to lead and its not 24-7 princess saving and dragon slaying, It makes the 75% of the time they DO do that seem more epic to them..as it their 'moment to shine"..if everything they do is epic and action hero movie like..the shine and sense of accomplishment gets dulled, commonplace, 'the norm'. Playing out them having to fix the vehicle for 20 minutes of game time, creates memories of 'remember that, it sucked for the characters"... We roll played out a character trying to pawn a stapler, and some broken armor for an hour..the most un-epic thing he could have been doing that day..and could be skipped..But its one of that players most fond memories because of how he played it out, because we played out a 'boring part' and the players talks about it all the time. If you skip the little things..you never notice the little things :) Its the small failed rolls of things that could be missed and never known about, or the unknown motivations of people that slowly reveal themselves that keeps people on the edge of their seat of mysterious, yet controlled chaos and entropy of the world at the whim of the dice, that's what makes table top what it is, in my eyes..
William R. said: Mouse said: Overall, I would still say that No Myth can only work with a group of engaged players that are willing to put in more work than 'usual', which I would think is the hard part. (Incoming wall of text on my part..what was 2 paragraphs grew and grew...sorry) [...] No Myth seems to rely on having well seasoned, experienced, unbiased and 'fair play' Players that are honorable and want to make a world that's fair and balanced as much as the GM is trying to..but that's rarely the case. Not saying your job is to stop them from enjoying playing that way..but to keep it in a balance so its fun for them, but not ruining it for the other players. [...] I agree with almost anything you wrote! Also, don't worry about the wall of texts, I love reading those and I also often like to build such huge walls myself. Concerning the one paragraph I didn't cut out, I would like to add something. I don't like to boast - okay, who am I kidding, I am kind of arrogant when I say this now - but I would like to think of myself as a player who could totally pull that off. If there is one thing I hate the most, it's metagaming or extreme over-the-top min/maxing, at least if they are used to "break" the game or ruin the experience of roleplaying. Please note that I said "I hate", not that those things are bad. Everything works with buy-in, I know. Anyway, my point is, that I also like to add more "realism" (at least for me) to my characters by making them suck at a few things really bad. Not necessarily stat-wise, but also personality-wise. While I also like to have metagame knowledge, I do my best to avoid using it for "cheating" and actually enjoy messing up sometimes. I also love thinking about the settings and NPCs, since I could come up with cool ideas too I think (the reason why I'm not GMing is my immense social awkwardness and my very awful sounding speech patterns and voice though). So all in all, I think I would be perfectly suited for such a "No Myth" game where "everyone is the GM" in a way (yes, this is not accurate, but I am too lazy to think of another short phrase that gets the idea across well). Nonetheless, I just wouldn't like being in such a game. I think it would be not very fun for me. I am more suited for the extremes: I like writing stories and maybe settings for campaigns (or at least coming up with them) on my own, and I also like being in a world that I have no control over whatsoever, except for the extent of my character's abilities and actions. But the things in between (a collaborative approach of GMing and playing at the same time, writing stories together, or just metagaming the hell out of everything to break the illusion of an authentic world and story) I really don't like. tl;dr: I think more people than you might think are technically able to play like this, it's just that not many people would consider it to be fun. I agree though that it sounds awesome in theory! But like with many "awesome" things, they are just not suited for (potentially) the majority of people (I don't have access to any statistics, so this is all me making this up). For example, I am a huge Star Trek fan and think it's the best thing ever. The majority of the world population thinks otherwise, and most of the people I know can't even understand how I could watch "crap like that". Regards Lee
Mouse said: In this case it was mostly about the character having access to skills (because the player is clever) that the other characters wouldn't have. Kind of min-maxing, but not in an inherently broken way, just something that would have naturally given him more opportunities to shine/be in the foreground than the others at the beginning and therefore immediately establish as the party face without giving the others even a chance. Kind of like if someone multiclasses into rogue so he can find traps and the like and the rogue is forced into the sidelines. Sorry, hard to explain :) Do you suppose there is another solution to the issue of spotlight hogging than denying particular choices that are otherwise rules-legal? But isn't the point of the No Myth style less work for the GM? That actually makes it absolutely necessary for (at the very least) the majority of the players being interested in adding stuff to the story/world/whatnot - if they aren't or only 1 or 2 are, then that shifts the burden back to the GM, no? Its still GMing thats focused very much on improvisation, but still to me it seems that 'everyone contributes' is kind of the point of No Myth which makes one wonder how many players would actually like that. I wouldn't say it's the "point," but rather a benefit. As mentioned before, the collaboration on world details isn't specifically No Myth (which is defined above and in its entirety including source material in the link provided). It is, however, very compatible. Let's be clear though: Each group that employs such a method has a means by which they generate fiction and who contributes to that can vary from group to group and from session to session. You are right that I would probably be fine with No Myth - been there, done that, but once more it is an entirely different experience for me. Its crafting a story and always keeping the story in mind, my character just helps crafting the story... but when I actually want to play in a roleplaying game, I don't want to do that. I want to just be that pacifist Sorceress exploring a world and trying to survive, make connections, contacts, allthethings. I want to think about the metagame as little as possible (which is probably one reason why I dislike long (longer than half an hour or something) combat scenes as a player. I am weird that way. We're both playing roleplaying games remember; we just have different priorities. It's uncharitable to suggest otherwise. I can't and won't refute what your own experience is in what you think was No Myth (or similar) because that's your experience, not mine. Thats the point, a GM that doesn't care doesn't make me care, meaning it won't be fun for me. That doesn't mean he has to prep tons of stuff, but it does mean that it can't be 'unavoidable combat encounter leads to item x which needs to be used to get to location y where combat starts again no matter what player characters do...' maybe even with some paragraphs being read to the players as its all just about following the railroady module or the same stuff over and over again. I want my character choices to matter, which has (in my experience) never been the case with GMs that don't care. Once more hard to quantify, but a GM that cares (just like players that care) will usually ask more questions, give more feedback and be more communicative about game stuff in general I think. There's a leap of logic that I can't follow here. I care lots and I prep very little. What you're really talking about here is playing a style of game you don't want to play and then getting a bad result. That has nothing to do with prepping or not. We covered this already, Headhunter, and yes I will agree again that you are creating a story together all the time, but you can't tell me there isn't a difference between my style and yours when it comes to the amount of story creation between the GM and the players. One is focused on your character and one is focused on the overall story. Don't act like you don't know. :p Besides, No Myth makes the play experience exciting and collaborative for those that enjoy it. Just pointing it out for any readers. It is not salvation for everyone out there. We clearly have differing definitions of what "story" is. Here's mine: The things the characters do during play and how it affects the situation or setting is the story. During play, it's a happening, a tale to be told. After play when we think back on what happened, that is the story we created together. Notice that this definition doesn't say who establishes what details. That has nothing to do with what "story" is, only the process by which it is created during play. Depends. If a character shouldn't know that trolls need to be killed with fire/acid or they will get up again but the player does and uses that knowledge, thats something I would call an advantage. Same with other monsters and their stats, AC, HP, yadda. This can be somewhat worked aorund with homebrewing monsters or changing their stats around (hilarity ensues), but in general? Yes, its an advantage, and it should not be used. You are probably going to disagree with that :) Yes, I do. It's a game and mastery of a game means you should gain an advantage. If Bob's character Ragnar whips out a torch to fight some trolls even though we've never fought trolls in this campaign, I'm going to ask Bob how Ragnar knows to do that. Whatever answer Bob gives, so long as it is consistent with established fiction and the genre expectations, is totally valid. "When he was a child, Ragnar heard in a nursery rhyme that fire kills trolls." Cool, now go kill some trolls with fire, Ragnar. I don't know about you but when I improvise an NPC, a location, anything really I always have a lot about that element already in my head. How the NPC behaves, motivations, what is in that location and why - it just pops in. If that is then not immediately (and ALL of it) declared by me it could still be changed with No Myth, which does actually mean that I am rewriting the canon in my head. Of course it wouldn't be a big deal a lot of the time, but still a minor annoyance for me - which would lead to frustration over time, I think. Here you're really talking about the supremacy of ideas, specifically, that the idea in your head and that hasn't been established in play is more valid than the ideas your players have. While that's certainly traditional, it misses how very important player engagement is and how easily you can get that by deferring to player ideas that are not contradicting existing fiction or genre expectations. In short, "nothing exists until it is established in play," a hallmark of No Myth. It can take the wind out of a player's sails if they have a really cool idea and are told "No" or "Yes, but..." (blocks) because it doesn't fit with whatever you have in your noggin. But... its not being wasted. I just explained to you how its not, that things pop up again if they have consequences or that they get *cough* moved if they were not discovered at all or that another, future character will get a go at it. Everything is still being used. I'll concede this point since you know what you do with your own prep better than I could. You're being very consistent with the application of your "old school/sandbox" approach here especially since your prep might be used for another "future character" which indicates that content isn't being created for specific protagonists but rather is "stuff in the world" which can be encountered by any character. I might have explained myself badly - sorry about that. To clarify: I only prepped the dog, his motivation for keeping people away from that door and the puppy trap elsewhere. Did not actually prep any of the solutions (unless you include adding the dogs' stat block to a sheet in roll20), they are just stuff people considered when they were in the dungeon. But in general I don't see it as a huge amount of prep to think of a puzzle with at least one solution and allow other solutions that 'make sense' in play. Like going past the dog in puppy form :) Sure - it's still not a puzzle as I had framed it ("logic puzzles"). It's just a situation with a conflict to be resolved as with just about any other situation in an RPG. When referring to puzzles in the earlier discussion, what we were really talking about is stuff like door riddles, the old "which one of these guys is lying" logic puzzles, or the like which are traditional in D&D. Overall, I would still say that No Myth can only work with a group of engaged players that are willing to put in more work than 'usual', which I would think is the hard part. I still can't quite fathom that rolling randomly for everything would actually work out every time to make sense and create a logical story in-game but to each their own. I've said it once and I'll say it again: "Anything works with buy-in, and nothing works well without it." No Myth is challenging on many levels for everyone at the table. A challenging game is very engaging.
William R. said: (Incoming wall of text on my part..what was 2 paragraphs grew and grew...sorry) Thanks for joining in the discussion. Walls of text don't scare me! After reading all of the posts, This is what kept chewing around in my mind, without being able to put my thumb on it in words, until someone said it. No Myth seems to rely on having well seasoned, experienced, unbiased and 'fair play' Players that are honorable and want to make a world that's fair and balanced as much as the GM is trying to..but that's rarely the case. Not saying your job is to stop them from enjoying playing that way..but to keep it in a balance so its fun for them, but not ruining it for the other players. While the appeal of No Myth is a temptation I have a lot, I also realize perhaps its not that I cant do it well as a GM, its my players cannot contribute to it unbiased on their part. Giving them any input of the world itself, they would take advantage of any and every rule that has grey area to make each to to their advantage. Like allowing them to add items to a room, they wouldn't think "what would be in here" they think "what could I add that I could use to get a huge advantage in case I need it, but at the same time plausible enough for the GM to allow it" I don't know your players personally as you might, but what you're describing sounds to me that they're simply not playing with good intent . Games work well, with experienced players or inexperienced ones, when everyone wants to play a game a particular way and works together to make it go well. This is so for No Myth or any other approach. My admittedly anecdotal experience with employing No Myth and pick-up players from Roll20 of varying experience (hundreds now if my stats on this and my other account are accurate) has been overwhelmingly positive. I just want to point out, again, that the players using Author or Director stance (establishing details outside of their character actions or traits) is not specifically No Myth, but is compatible and is something we use in our games. I say this because No Myth is a particular thing and I don't want definitions to get muddled as we continue the discussion. Like if I had them in a mechbay, and they got to pick items, one WOULD pick the biggest mech he just happens to know how to drive, and it just happens to be stocked full of the highest damage ammo, and its also unlocked (because they was working on it) and the keys in it ready to go....cant have that, since the mech is 100x more powerful than they are now..So i'd get in an argument of "we all know why you added it" to get a reply of "well its a MECH BAY, you saying it cant possibly be a chance of it there?..."..Yes there is a chance, but you being able to add things made it a certainty that it will ALWAYS be around when there is a chance. There might be a 1% chance, giving you the ability to call the % roll (so to speak) means he just gets to say "yep, it rolled a 1, its there" Is having that "biggest mech" appropriate to the level of the character as per the rules of the game? If it is not, then the player is cheating. Same goes for the ammo. If the game doesn't have such design conceits, then it's fair play. As the GM, you control the level of the challenges they will encounter after equipping themselves so it's a simple matter of upping the difficulty. It would be advisable, of course, to check with the players and see why they find it necessary to try and short-circuit the challenges you're giving them instead of engaging with them and having fun. Some of this might be that you have players that aren't playing with good intent, but it might also be they're interested in taking on different challenges than you are presenting and would rather just "get through" your content as quickly as possible in favor of something else. This is speculation, of course, but it's what I've seen over the years. Which perhaps its my viewpoint, but not every situation should be in their favor. you cant have an epic struggle if there is no struggle. The players have to want that struggle or else they may try to avoid it or short-circuit it. The only way to be certain it's a struggle they want is to communicate with them and collaborate on what sorts of challenges they want to play out. The best tasting victories are the ones you are at a lost for how to approach, and only a hint of whats going on, with no info of why things are doing what it is..but manage to get thru smelling like roses and the victor. The best-tasting victories come from challenges that everyone has bought into, whatever form that may be. They're committing to making it work and to experience the challenge instead of sidestepping it. They would (and do now) use player-character knowledge to make/do things that should be a 50/50 type decision on the characters part, into a 99/1 with what they know..and 'defend' it by going "well MAYBE he just chooses to do that, its a possibility.' And I couldnt counter it on No myth, even knowing hes deciding off what HE knows, and not the character. And im of the old mindset player knowledge vs PC knowledge is 2 different universes. Metagaming is sloppy decision making using godlike knowledge to twist fate in your favor unfairly to avoid undesirable outcomes. I try not to do it as a GM running NPCs or as a player running a character. OR metagaming is a positive force when used to make the game better, such as players putting themselves in interesting and challenging positions because it's fun even if the characters would be stupid to do such a thing. Like say, going into combat against more numerous and powerful foes or delving into a dungeon full of monsters. Metagaming is a tool. It can be used for good or for ill. All you have to do is agree as a group to use it for good and then stick to those agreements. This will completely change your game. Instead of needing to be defensive and police instances of metagaming, you sit back and let it happen so long as it makes the game more fun for everyone. It goes back to playing with good intent. Or on the aspect of not needing to roll to do things, they would exploit that. If they KNEW to find a door, all they had to do was say "I search until I find something" they would. They would have not one problem with saying they spent 12 hours searching a 5x5 room for a door if they knew it was there somewhere..even if its a useless door to a broom closet. since out of game it would pass in a few seconds. They would more than willingly do a mexican stand off of "I can say Im searching for days if need be...I can sit here all day saying I search for an hour more, until you as GM say I eventually found something". Your game might benefit from time pressure then. You can't be spending days searching a broom closet if Princess Lilac is going to be sacrificed by the Scions of Dispater at midnight tonight. That's an interesting challenge. Finding a door, as you framed it above, doesn't appear to be very interesting, nor would the endless Perception/Search rolls you might ask for. As well, consider that game mechanics only come into play when there's an actual conflict. If the PCs have no time pressure and nothing preventing them from finding a secret door, then they just find it given time, ability, and resources - no roll. No Myth is about conflict resolution, not task resolution. As I mentioned above, it's not "I search for the door, therefore I roll," it's "I search and I have to find the door before the room is flooded and drowns us all, therefore I roll." The former is boring task resolution; the latter is exciting conflict resolution. If there is no conflict, there is no roll. The PCs just succeed. That would cause me to have to impose 'time critical limits' of other things they got to get to doing, impeding them from spending 12 hours doing it..which seems wrong to do...forcing them on a schedule 24-7 so they dont do a "well I got all the time in the world, I'm going to search for something in an outward spiral pattern, let me know when I find something". Yes, do that - provided the players find that to be an interesting challenge. They would literally put their characters on auto-pilot until they, by trial and error, hit something worth describing, but then get no feeling of self worth or accomplishment knowing they COULD have missed it, but their own success roll means they found it. As to "auto-pilot," yes, this is the bit in No Myth known as "scene-framing." Skip the boring parts, get to the good parts. In the good parts, there will be conflict and because rolls are made during conflicts, they'll have lots of rolling and lots of success or failure. Please note that "conflict" doesn't necessarily mean "combat." And while I try to be as un-railroadish as possible, I go for more a sandbox 'the world moves as it will, you just can change the course of parts of it you interact with, be it good or bad". I think the GM's job is just that..to build the world as unbiased and balanced as possible, challenging the players to the edge of thier limits so they feel epic when they cross the line of success they didn't before. That the players are trying to make it thru..and their input into it is what their characters can and cannot manage to do in it, with what they know as characters, and what chain reaction it causes to ripple out in the whole world as they come across them over time. Any game and approach is challenging if you make it so and everyone agrees to engage with those challenges. You assume that players will use collaboration to make the game easier. While that's possible, why would they, presuming they agree as you do that they want to be pushed "to the edge of their limits so they feel epic"? No Myth gaming remind me of playing dragons lair, you make a few choices based upon outside game knowledge of the risks and results, and watch the pre decided cutscene of the results of it depending how your choices work or not. Which isn't saying it isn't a viable way to play. IF people have fun ANY way of playing is viable. It's nothing like that and this borders on a strawman argument. Would you like to clarify and offer evidence of your supposition by quoting from the original post that defines No Myth? The uncertainty of success rolls on things is what makes an RPG to me. Every roll shouldn't be epic, some should be mundane. Some should SEEM mundane to the players, while having huge impacts they dont know about, or find out later. Time spent on pointing out they have downtime, and a 'lull' of activity reminds them the characters have strengths and weaknesses, and real lives to lead and its not 24-7 princess saving and dragon slaying, It makes the 75% of the time they DO do that seem more epic to them..as it their 'moment to shine"..if everything they do is epic and action hero movie like..the shine and sense of accomplishment gets dulled, commonplace, 'the norm'. Playing out them having to fix the vehicle for 20 minutes of game time, creates memories of 'remember that, it sucked for the characters"... We roll played out a character trying to pawn a stapler, and some broken armor for an hour..the most un-epic thing he could have been doing that day..and could be skipped..But its one of that players most fond memories because of how he played it out, because we played out a 'boring part' and the players talks about it all the time. If you skip the little things..you never notice the little things :) Downtime in my view is for when you're not playing the game. But that's my preference as the above is yours. Rather than separate these sorts of character interactions for times when it's "slow," we do it all the time in every scene. This leads to a huge amount of character development in our games. We don't learn about Ragnar only when he's flirting with barmaids; we learn about him all the time through every action he takes. Its the small failed rolls of things that could be missed and never known about, or the unknown motivations of people that slowly reveal themselves that keeps people on the edge of their seat of mysterious, yet controlled chaos and entropy of the world at the whim of the dice, that's what makes table top what it is, in my eyes.. All of which is possible in No Myth, if that's what everyone wants to do. Only you're making rolls to resolve conflicts, not tasks.
Lee P. said: I agree with almost anything you wrote! Also, don't worry about the wall of texts, I love reading those and I also often like to build such huge walls myself. Concerning the one paragraph I didn't cut out, I would like to add something. I don't like to boast - okay, who am I kidding, I am kind of arrogant when I say this now - but I would like to think of myself as a player who could totally pull that off. If there is one thing I hate the most, it's metagaming or extreme over-the-top min/maxing, at least if they are used to "break" the game or ruin the experience of roleplaying. Please note that I said "I hate", not that those things are bad. Everything works with buy-in, I know. Anyway, my point is, that I also like to add more "realism" (at least for me) to my characters by making them suck at a few things really bad. Not necessarily stat-wise, but also personality-wise. While I also like to have metagame knowledge, I do my best to avoid using it for "cheating" and actually enjoy messing up sometimes. I also love thinking about the settings and NPCs, since I could come up with cool ideas too I think (the reason why I'm not GMing is my immense social awkwardness and my very awful sounding speech patterns and voice though). So all in all, I think I would be perfectly suited for such a "No Myth" game where "everyone is the GM" in a way (yes, this is not accurate, but I am too lazy to think of another short phrase that gets the idea across well). Nonetheless, I just wouldn't like being in such a game. I think it would be not very fun for me. I am more suited for the extremes: I like writing stories and maybe settings for campaigns (or at least coming up with them) on my own, and I also like being in a world that I have no control over whatsoever, except for the extent of my character's abilities and actions. But the things in between (a collaborative approach of GMing and playing at the same time, writing stories together, or just metagaming the hell out of everything to break the illusion of an authentic world and story) I really don't like. tl;dr: I think more people than you might think are technically able to play like this, it's just that not many people would consider it to be fun. I agree though that it sounds awesome in theory! But like with many "awesome" things, they are just not suited for (potentially) the majority of people (I don't have access to any statistics, so this is all me making this up). For example, I am a huge Star Trek fan and think it's the best thing ever. The majority of the world population thinks otherwise, and most of the people I know can't even understand how I could watch "crap like that". Regards Lee My goal isn't to tell you how to play only that there are other ways and that those ways produce different outcomes. In this particular case, less prep, faster pacing, more player engagement. If you like prep for the sake of prep or like a slow-paced game or don't really care if your players are not engaged in the challenges and so seek to sidestep or short-circuit them, then by all means keep doing what you're doing. In the interest of being a well-rounded GM and player, however, I think it's important to try new things or at least learn about them. I've run and played in games that use the approach you prefer; can you say the same of mine? As for metagaming, again, it's a tool and it can be used for good or ill. You cannot take it out of the game. It's there to stay. So my position is to use it to make the game better rather than become defensive about it and use my time at the table to police it. That D&D 1e wizard with 1 hp and just a single sleep spell memorized going into a dungeon full of monsters is, in fact, being controlled by a player who is metagaming. He is putting his real-world priorities (e.g. this is the game and dungeon delves are fun) first and then using Pawn stance to move his weak and ill-prepared character into a dangerous situation when he really should be going to law school instead. That's an example of metagaming being used positively and one that I bet you don't have a problem with because the player is acting with good intent.
Headhunter Jones said: Lee P. said: [...] My goal isn't to tell you how to play only that there are other ways and that those ways produce different outcomes. In this particular case, less prep, faster pacing, more player engagement. I never said you were trying to "tell me/us how to play", at least I hope I didn't because that would have been rude. You make good points and I definitely can see how it can be great fun! If you like prep for the sake of prep or like a slow-paced game or don't really care if your players are not engaged in the challenges and so seek to sidestep or short-circuit them, then by all means keep doing what you're doing. Okay, now THAT sounds a bit dickish. No one "likes prep for the sake of prep", and you definitely used some "biased" vocabulary in that last part of the sentence. Also, I never said I like those things, nor do I participate in campaigns with such disruptive players. What you mention here ARE disruptive players, not "old school sandbox players" or whatever it is called. In the interest of being a well-rounded GM and player, however, I think it's important to try new things or at least learn about them. I've run and played in games that use the approach you prefer; can you say the same of mine? Agreed! Now, while I can't say that I've tried a D&D campaign with that approach (yet), I have played two sessions of a game that is basically a collaborative story that is been told by everyone. The setup to the game is also extremely similar to the one you described for dungeon rooms, where there players take turns establishing the scene and introducing new elements. I actually kind of liked it at first, but in the end I didn't like it as much, because I figured it's just not the right kind of game for me. That's also why I figure I wouldn't really enjoy your approach of playing, though I wouldn't say it's horrible of course, just different. As for metagaming, again, it's a tool and it can be used for good or ill. You cannot take it out of the game. It's there to stay. So my position is to use it to make the game better rather than become defensive about it and use my time at the table to police it. That D&D 1e wizard with 1 hp and just a single sleep spell memorized going into a dungeon full of monsters is, in fact, being controlled by a player who is metagaming. He is putting his real-world priorities (e.g. this is the game and dungeon delves are fun) first and then using Pawn stance to move his weak and ill-prepared character into a dangerous situation when he really should be going to law school instead. That's an example of metagaming being used positively and one that I bet you don't have a problem with because the player is acting with good intent. Exactly! I still prefer a bit less metagaming, for more "realism", but even the approach of playing a character as you described can be really cool for a game that I'd prefer. I often do this myself, coming up with reasons for my character to stick with the group's plan, or try out stupid things to do (that are fun), instead of just "denying" things to happen. That's another case of players working together instead of playing for themselves, being "locked" into their roles, which I also don't like.
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Headhunter Jones said: If you like prep for the sake of prep or like a slow-paced game or don't really care if your players are not engaged in the challenges and so seek to sidestep or short-circuit them, then by all means keep doing what you're doing . (Since apparently bans are now a thing and I did get a warning already for stuff in another thread - I don't want to risk loosing my campaign.) Because of the bolded part and other things I am going to bow out of this. It is not a type of conversation I wish to be adding to and I will try and refrain from adding my opinion to things like this in the future. Have fun and good luck to everyone.
(In before closed) When I said I could already feel the ban hammer floating above me, I was not lying. It's just that apparently it missed me and hit someone else instead! Haha, BA DUM TSH! Okay, sorry for that, but I feel kind of sassy today (for other reasons though). To contribute something potentially useful to the topic again though, he actually sent me a PM as a response, because he was banned in the forums and couldn't reply here. He was polite and tried to explain exactly the things I and Mouse didn't like about his post. I don't think Headhunter Jones really is a "bad person" or is arrogant, even if it sometimes looks like he thinks his opinions are superior. It's just that he likes to passionately "defend" his own opinions, something I also did in the past which caused lots of bans. I think it's more a matter of how he says it, instead of what he says. I intend to create peace here and try to be the harbinger of friendship and tolerance! So let's hug each other and fondle some puppies to calm down! I am still interested in discussing this topic by the way and actually found myself coming up with more thoughts - or at least expressing my thoughts better - through PMs. So send me one if you want to convince me of your views or let me try showing you my view of things! Prepare for walls of text though, since I have to spend my time somehow to avoid studying for good grades. Regards the much-spamming Lee
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I will quickly add my 2 cents and then elaborate after my upcoming class (teaching Russian Interpreting). To save prep time (original thread topic) in sandbox or non-railroad type campaigns, I highly recommend a GM chose a setting he/she is familiar with (on an intimate level). This allows much easier improvisation when the situation calls for it. I will expound in 60 minutes.
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Mouse, being banned from the public forums does not affect your campaign access or private campaign forum use.
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Ok - quick expound on idea presented above. Backstory - I am currently running an Adventure Path through roll20. It is one with which I was passingly familiar. I had to do a LOT of prep work in researching NPCs, areas, and building maps/encounters. This was necessary for accuracy and adherence to the Adventure Path story line. I've also run a sandbox style campaign in a world I know like the back of my hand. It can be a world from anything. Star Wars. The Lord of the Rings. Heck - the Hunger Games if you are familiar with that. The key is that you KNOW this world. You KNOW the names of big towns and major players. This required next to no preparatory work on my part. This allows you to improvise a surprising amount during the course of a campaign. If the PCs don't follow your bread-crumb trail of clues to the buried treasure, you can introduce an NPC with interesting news from town X which might interest the PCs more. And it all comes from a world or story with which you are familiar. You could run a campaign in parallel to a story from a novel or as a prequel or afterword. You could just use the world and build an entirely new story line. But at least the world is there and background story is developed. For many GMs this is a big stumbling block which can take time. Another plus is that many popular novels have fan pages with maps pre-made and NPC biographies and whatnot. As a very smart person once said, "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants". Here's the one drawback from some roll20 players. This approach can depend a lot on "theatre of the mind". i.e. You wont have maps and encounters prebuilt for their limitless choices. In the few games I've played, it seems roll20 players prefer to see a map (and have mood music, and have dynamic lighting, etc... all the roll20 goodies!). In that case, you can use generic maps ( <a href="http://www.gozzys.com" rel="nofollow">www.gozzys.com</a> ) fairly easily. You can even upload them in-game within a few minutes and have your encounter setup. Random Generators are also your best friend for saving time. See website above or others like it. There are random generators for just about everything. Some of my favorite include these two sites: <a href="http://www.gozzys.com" rel="nofollow">www.gozzys.com</a> donjon; Pathfinder Random Encounter Generator
This is a great discussion, and this sounds like a really fun style. I'm really interested in learning more about this, but I'm still unsure about how this is implemented in actual play. I would love to see/hear a recording of actual play sessions where this approach is utilized. Are there any examples out there so we can see this in practice?
K P. said: This is a great discussion, and this sounds like a really fun style. I'm really interested in learning more about this, but I'm still unsure about how this is implemented in actual play. I would love to see/hear a recording of actual play sessions where this approach is utilized. Are there any examples out there so we can see this in practice? None that I know of. I love hearing actual play, and I'd be willing to record a session myself that uses the "No Myth" approach, if someone can explain to me how to record a Google Hangout session.
Paul U. said: None that I know of. I love hearing actual play, and I'd be willing to record a session myself that uses the "No Myth" approach, if someone can explain to me how to record a Google Hangout session. I can't help you with recording, but I can encourage you to do this for what its worth :) I'll keep an eye on this thread if anyone is inspired to post a recording. Back to the topic - A lot of the discussion here is about "Buy-in". So how might a GM go about describing this type of play to the players, getting them excited about it, and getting that all important buy-in? Or how might you run a session zero with this style?
I don't see much of a point to a no-myth vs. traditional D&D debate. They are at their core different activities, and you should play the one your group feels like playing. With regard to reducing prep time, I have found it easy to improvise dungeons and encounters. Come up with a rough theme, and have some random tables ready (also, you don't have to live by the random tables, if you roll something that doesn't make logical sense, simply reroll on the table). Granted this requires my own approach which is typical of older edition games, but has become less frequent in newer edition games. The premise that requires buy in is that the adventurers are living in a fantasy world, not a carefully crafted game tailored to them. Some encounters are easy, and other times they can get in over their head (be careful to never put them in a no-win, they should always have a reasonable chance at survival). I used to run pick-up games (no-prep, just a bunch of people sitting around in an apartment when someone says "hey, anyone want to RP?"), and when I first started I fell on my face a few times, but it didn't take long to get better at it. For longer campaigns, I found it was important to spend about 10 minutes taking good notes after the game to keep a consistent world going.
If you're careful never to put them in a no-win, that sounds like a carefully crafted world to me. They're not likely to get in over their head, unless there's a true risk of that happening. And there's a difference between winning and survival. One can survive and still lose, die and still win. It's just a matter of setting the stakes. Different discussion, that.
That was poorly worded, I meant 0 chance of survival, not 0 chance of winning.
Tree Ant said: That was poorly worded, I meant 0 chance of survival, not 0 chance of winning. It is certainly easy to conflate the two, and I still do it myself. But once they are separated, and interesting stakes agreed to, it's easier to toss encounters at the players just to see how they handle them. Win or lose, it's interesting and fun. But, enough said.
Does anyone have any advice for running No-Myth in crunchier combat games like the recent D&D editions or Pathfinder? Headhunter Jones indicated that he was able to do it for D&D 4e, but I'm not clear how it should be done. For example: with D&D 4e, if I were running a more prep-heavy campaign and writing a satisfying combat encounter in advance, I would want to: Work out my party's strength and total levels in advance, and write out a few notes so I can eyeball a decrease in strength if a few players don't show up that day Pick a variety (because just one enemy type is dull) of creatures that are appropriate thematically, challenge-wise, and ideally interact together in some tactically satisfying way. (e.g. tanks defending spellcasters, dogs flanking with their masters, etc.) Look up their stats and do some quick math to figure how many of each Come up with combat area, and perhaps add some kind of terrain feature that makes it interesting Bring the stats together in one reference page to help me run the combat, along with any rules notes I may need Come up with whatever roleplaying motivations or contingency plans I may need. (i.e. Does the enemy taunt the PCs, bicker amongst themselves, or shiver in fear? Will any try to escape if wounded? Can the PCs parley or sneak past them instead?) I would want to do this because combats in 4e can take an hour or more, which is too long to spend on something poorly thought out. But also because combats can be highly satisfying when "cooked up right." Trying to do these steps by improvisation is a bit daunting, especially step 2. It seems that I would have to know reams of monster names, traits, roles and CRs off the top of my head. How else can I quickly reply to my players " OK you turn the corner and see hunched over a cooking pot...3 bugbear warriors and 2 gnoll hunters " and not have accidentally signed the party's death certificates or wasted everyone's time with trivial foes? The problem would get even worse with things like building a Pathfinder enemy wizard on the fly - the lengthy spell lists, the magic items, etc. It seems to require a huge level of system mastery. Whereas improvising skill challenges isn't too bad. And generating non-combat NPCs, themes, locations, and plot lines are all transferable skills that can be generated as fast as your brain can operate, or can be thrown back to the players for ideas at a story-collaborative table. I brainstormed a few ideas myself, but they're all theories. I would love to hear from other people what actually works for them. Do some pre-prep with random encounter tables. At least these could be reused through an entire dungeon or wilderness area Keep Donjon open, pause a little to roll...and since the encounter build throws just one monster type at you, maybe roll 1-3 times and combine halves or thirds to get monster variety in there Making a few encounters and move or re-skin the enemies if necessary (it turns out the bandits were patrolling since the PCs bypassed their camp, use the gnoll stats for the bugbears, etc.) 4e : Use this chart and randomly improvise a few attacks for each monster (This whole article could be of interest) Improvise adjustments if you accidentally made the encounter severely out of whack (add reinforcements or make the villain start monologuing) For spellcasters, just give them a few spells you have memorized and let them spam it. Or invent your own spell-like effects, because they're NPCs Treasure can be similar problem, but at least you can often put that aside and sort out the loot pile between gaming sessions Give up and run the setting with a rules-light game like Fate or Dungeon World instead Downsides: Only works in certain cases and can lead to wasted prep, especially as the PCs level up out of the reach of your encounter tables. (My level 1 "traveling through the forests" table is useless for level 5 PCs). Leads to really clunky delays, as you find out what monsters are there, and then flip through your books to find them. and 4. could lead to inconsistency. ("What? That's a Gnoll move. Bugbears can't do that!" DM: "...these ones can"). Idea 3 can also remove the meaning of PC choice, if you over-use it. (i.e. if the PCs run into the same fight no matter what they do, that's really just railroading, even if you dressed it up by changing the centaurs into yetis) tl;dr : how can you handle crunch-heavy monster/encounter design in No Myth?
Jason Z. said: I would want to do this because combats in 4e can take an hour or more, which is too long to spend on something poorly thought out. But also because combats can be highly satisfying when "cooked up right." I feel there are a few misconceptions in what you're saying there. Combat in any system can take an hour or more, but it doesn't have to, even in D&D. The reason it usually does, is because victory and success hinge entirely in hit point whittling. There's a difference between "poorly thought out" and "quickly thought out." "Cooked up right" combat /can/ be fun, but there are other ways. I run no-myth D&D. It's the only kind I'll run. I don't do any of what you list for combat. We decide what the victory and defeat conditions will look like, make sure they're both interesting to everyone, and then I throw whatever I want at them. If it's a cinch and they win, it's fun. If they lose horribly, it's fun. And winning and losing rarely if ever involve hit points. I don't care about the party's strength and total levels. I pick a variety of monsters, but I don't consider their interactions at all. 4th Edition groups some kinds of monsters by interactions, so I can get some even if I don't think much about it. I don't bother figuring out how many of each, though that's not a hard calculation, at least in 4e: One standard for every player, one elite for every two, one solo for every five, and a mess of minions. Done. I don't bother much with terrain features. Nice if something comes to me, but not crucial. I find the creatures in their books and stick in bookmarks to flip quickly to them. The (ugh) "roleplaying" motivations are important, but we don't need contingency plans. The players help me come up with the motivations, as well as much of the rest of the encounter. My players had to reach the top of a tremendous mountain, where they could travel to the next part of the adventure. I had toyed around with the idea of an enclave of giants, plagued by undead, and of course an aboleth was trying to reach the same goal they were. I asked the players what they wanted to play with our remaining time: dealing with the giants or activating the travel. They asked to activate the travel. I sketched out a map of the area, with a location one of them had to be standing in at the end of the sixth round in order for the party to travel. I set the aboleth (a "boss" enemy) on one side with some minions. There might have been a lesser aboleth, too. They could win if they were the ones to travel, rather than the PCs. Then there were a handful of undead who had been pursuing the party ever since they had climbed past the haunted section of the mountain. Their goal was to take out the party's cleric. They consisted of several "standard" monsters and another "solo" or "boss" monster. Most, if not all of the creatures were a higher level than the PCs. There were only 3 PCs, and a companion wolf. Going by the numbers, they were way out of their league. And we were off. I pulled not a single punch, and neither did the players, though I can't claim to be any great shakes tactically. They aboleth and the undead were able to do some stunning and dominating, but that's not terribly challenging, just annoying, so I might have stopped with that. I definitely asked the players if they minded. The fight lasted six rounds, and at the end, the players were in place to teleport. If they hadn't been, they would have lost then and there, and we would have narrated the rest of the fight, probably with the PCs hurrying back down the mountain to get the ingredients for another method of travel. That was what they had decided failure would have meant. I don't recall it being a particularly short encounter, but it was constantly interesting, and we didn't feel it was a grind at any point. The players pulled out all the stops, and the cleric got swallowed by a zombie purple worm. And only the barest outline of that encounter had existed before we started it. The key to it all, is not caring if everything is "cooked up right." Perfect is the enemy of good enough, and with getting the heck on with it. Just roll and go.
Paul, that's a pretty helpful reply and exactly what I was interested in. I don't bother figuring out how many of each, though that's not a hard calculation, at least in 4e: One standard for every player, one elite for every two, one solo for every five, and a mess of minions. Done. I am imagining your thought process might look something like this, please correct me if I'm missing something crucial: The PCs are arguing about whether to sneak or storm into the villain's compound, so the DM tunes out for a second. "The PCs are level 10 now, and I should hit them with a big combat soon... scans list of monsters by level in the back of the monstrous manual ...The main chamber can have 5 of these level 8 soldiers, a level 10 elite, and eh, 10 level 8 minions skirmishers who will flee when things get tough. *Quietly drops bookmarks into the pages while the PCs continue to argue in character* " Then the next room, there's not so much time to prepare: "Well I wanted to put some undead in here. I'll run 6 level 8 human duelists reflavoured as agile skeleton elites, an arrow trap doing level 10 strength damage until someone 2-hard-DCs shuts it down, and...that's it. This is an easy room." Then the last room: "Game's almost over and the timing feels right. This is where I'll put the boss, so, in goes the Level 11 solo and all the minions who fled. Plus two level 2 level 9 artillery backups. And one of them's that wormy NPC from town that everyone hated. Maybe I'll have him flee or beg for mercy." The fight lasted six rounds, and at the end, the players were in place to teleport. If they hadn't been, they would have lost then and there, and we would have narrated the rest of the fight, probably with the PCs hurrying back down the mountain to get the ingredients for another method of travel. That was what they had decided failure would have meant. I like this a lot. It gives the fight a second layer of tension, cuts down on the grind if you win but have to go into mop-up duty, and also it's less important that the fight was absolutely perfectly balanced.
The PCs are arguing about whether to sneak or storm into the villain's compound Nothing to argue about. We could make either one fun for everyone, so they might as well go with the first suggestion anyone makes. Since it's no-myth, there's no a priori answer to what's the right thing to do. In-character argument is fun, but only if we already have a decision about what to do. , so the DM tunes out for a second. "The PCs are level 10 now, and I should hit them with a big combat soon...scans list of monsters by level in the back of the monstrous manual...The main chamber can have 5 of these level 8 soldiers, a level 10 elite, and eh, 10 level 8 minions skirmishers who will flee when things get tough. *Quietly drops bookmarks into the pages while the PCs continue to argue in character*" More or less, except I will probably ask them what kind of fight they want, and how the monsters either win or lose. Then the next room, there's not so much time to prepare: "Well I wanted to put some undead in here. I'll run 6 level 8 human duelists reflavoured as agile skeleton elites, an arrow trap doing level 10 strength damage until someone 2-hard-DCs shuts it down, and...that's it. This is an easy room." I don't make any assumptions about how hard or easy it will be, and it's not about what I want, but what we all want. Then the last room: "Game's almost over and the timing feels right. This is where I'll put the boss, so, in goes the Level 11 solo and all the minions who fled. Plus two level 2 level 9 artillery backups. And one of them's that wormy NPC from town that everyone hated. Maybe I'll have him flee or beg for mercy." Sure. I like this a lot. It gives the fight a second layer of tension, cuts down on the grind if you win but have to go into mop-up duty, and also it's less important that the fight was absolutely perfectly balanced. It only has one layer of tension. I'm not trying to kill them, and I don't care if they win.
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K P. said: Back to the topic - A lot of the discussion here is about "Buy-in". So how might a GM go about describing this type of play to the players, getting them excited about it, and getting that all important buy-in? Or how might you run a session zero with this style? This link describes transitioning to a No-Myth style in your group. Also Jones kindly PMed me a few ideas, and I wanted to share: Printing out a few cheat sheets, then using an online resource (like an SRD or DDI) to tab up the monsters you need in a browser If you're stuck for ideas or time, you can throw a question back to your players. (So in my "turn the corner and see a cooking pot example," ask they players what they expect or want to see. Both in terms of the monsters and the setting: what is in that pot? What else is in the room? And if necessary, re-flavour some monster stats to meet their description of the occupants while providing a credible challenge). You can also use "ask the players" inspiration in place of a random encounter table Better to err on the side of too few enemies and add more later than the reverse You can use magic item "wishlists" instead of random treature tables. Invite players to contribute details or descriptions of the item to make it more real and meaningful Don't be afraid to take a short "commercial break" when you need it
I recommend erring on the side of too many enemies, myself, and giving them all goals that don't require killing the PCs.
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So I apologize if I swing this in the not-the-direction you are currently discussing but I wanted to chime in on the "no myth" vs "plotted story arc" methods of GMing. In the past, I have been a very plot focused GM. Playing Star Wars and Dark Sun were my two favorites because I was enchanted with the stories and adventures. But alas, my players often didn't like the feeling of Railroading. I scoffed at this, how could I be railroading when they asked for "an adventure?" Well I figured out for myself (my personal understanding) that by laying out these fantastic stories that had to happen in some semi-specific fashion, I was taking away their enjoyment. So, I stopped playing for a while. Recently I bumbled into a post about Dungeon World, or rather the GMs Agenda. I was like, wtf does that mean? A short google session later I had a copy of DW on my tablet and then devoured what I read. It made me excited again, flush with creativity. If you haven't read DW, you should. It's not DND, but the concepts presented are fantastic. Even if you only take these concepts away you might just find yourself mixing the plotted and the no myth styles. Because they work great together. Portray a fantastic world Fill the characters’ lives with adventure Play to find out what happens Dungeon World SRD im tired and probably talking in circles so I'll leave it at, go check it out. You might just find it insightful.
Yes, I think of Dungeon World as a prime example of "no-myth," though it's not really my favorite game. Even Star Wars and Dark Sun can be played in a no-myth style. Star Wars can because the universe and the timeline are vast, and also because it can be fun to subvert the canon. The same can be said for Dark Sun, though in that case (as with Eberron) the "canon" might not be true, and the real story is what is being told and uncovered then and there.
Rob M. said: So I apologize if I swing this in the not-the-direction you are currently discussing but I wanted to chime in on the "no myth" vs "plotted story arc" methods of GMing. In the past, I have been a very plot focused GM. Playing Star Wars and Dark Sun were my two favorites because I was enchanted with the stories and adventures. But alas, my players often didn't like the feeling of Railroading. I scoffed at this, how could I be railroading when they asked for "an adventure?" Well I figured out for myself (my personal understanding) that by laying out these fantastic stories that had to happen in some semi-specific fashion, I was taking away their enjoyment. So, I stopped playing for a while. It sounds like you are confusing a plotted story arc with forcing players from one thing to another. Interesting situations with offered adventures that the players may choose from as they please also requires a lot less prep and is as far removed from railroading as possible without replacing the exploration of the setting, NPCs and so on that is used in No Myth. Just a note.