My Group hates Combat and Rules... (My Solution)

As mentioned in the Title my Group hates the D&amp;D style combat system, and in general rule heavy systems. Now I am a pretty inexperienced GM and felt bad whenever I had to resolve a combat scene as people got bored and lost focus... and refused to learn the many rules ;). Yesterday I found a solution to my problem... its called Dungeon World, its not without flaws but very easy to modify to your needs, and everything is story driven, characters don't move 6 fields and attack once with a melee hit.... they do a backflip over the enemy and try to backstab them, how so? The Player decides that he wants to do it and that's just how it works... of course you'll roll some dice but they'll only tell you at what price your try came... was it successful? was it successful but you lost your balance? Or did you fail and crash on your back? The Beauty of it is that you'll never say no to a players idea again... everything is possible (sorta). I'm not that gifted writing guides to something.... I just wanted to share. There's a free guide ( <a href="http://www.dungeon-world.com/dungeon-world-guide/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dungeon-world.com/dungeon-world-guide/</a> ) out there which explains the game and it was the eyeopener for me...no Dungeons and Dragons ever again on my table. The Game only works with people willing to roleplay, Power-gamers and Rule-nazis will screw up the system. Cheers :Oskar Ps.: There a free mage alternative playbook for Dungeon World which removes the spell list and makes the mage the most fun my mage guy ever had (nearly unlimited spell choices without being overpowered, if your players know how to behave...its really all about roleplay). Disclaimer: I really really hope this won't get flagged as advertisement and removed.... its not intended as such... its just a solution I found to the Problems I have been having with classic D20 systems

The DnD rules don't limit anything a player wants to do. Player wants to do a backflip over an enemy? Great! Roll athletics and acrobatics!

I feel like DnD does not encourage players to roleplay... I know it can work and with my old group it worked well, my point still being that you'll have to remember a lot of numbers and rules...for combat (e.g moving, hitting, damage, attacks of opportunity, initiative, combat moves) its just not very intuitive for new people. My girlfriend wanted to have fun and play her character just the way she wanted but she hated all the rules and complex character creation with all these numbers and couldn't get a grip on the DnD ruleset.

Michael W. said: The DnD rules don't limit anything a player wants to do. Exactly... Now, I'm personally talking about 1e AD&amp;D, which is what we're currently playing. I consider that to be "rules light". The OP's experience may be with a much more recent version of the game. But if a player wants to attempt a backflip over his opponent and stab him from behind, I'm not going to tell him "No". Of course, a Thief with an 18 Dexterity and wearing leather armor will have a much greater chance of success than a Fighter with a 12 Dexterity and wearing chain mail. But I would never tell either player that they cannot at least try.

I'm very happy to have received my hard-copy of Dungeon World over the weekend. &nbsp;Very much looking forward to running (instead of playing) DW in the next few months.

Brett E. said: Exactly... Now, I'm personally talking about 1e AD&amp;D, which is what we're currently playing. I consider that to be "rules light". The OP's experience may be with a much more recent version of the game. Hmm might be indeed the case, all I ever used were 3.5 DnD rules and Pathfinder.

Never let the rules get in the way of gameplay. Rather than spending 10 minutes looking up an obscure rule or making a bunch of calculations, I will just assign a % chance of success on the fly and tell the player to roll the dice. Or else roll a d20 against the relevant ability score. I typically only break out the rulebooks if I know the topic is covered somewhere and the outcome could mean life or death for the PC.

That's all true, nevertheless Dungeon World has a flow to it that I never achieved in Dungeons and Dragons, and if you love fiction and do not like tactical combat... I can only recommend trying it.

D&amp;D Next (what will become 5e) is kinda like that. Rules light, cinematic, etc. At least compared to 3.5e and 4e. I would encourage experienced DMs to get on the Wizards of the Coast site and download the D&amp;D Next playtest materials. For my group, combat has been fast and fluid, and with the rules focused on abilities (STR, DEX, etc.) instead of skills, players really can attempt anything and everything.

In the most technical sense, a rules system (regardless of whether it's heavy or light) need never bog down a game or limit the capacity for roleplaying provided players and GM remain acutely aware that they needn't use the rules all the time for all the actions they want to do. Now with that said, there is certainly a psychological effect at play here which makes it difficult for the aforementioned statement to be adhered to. &nbsp;People naturally tend to be rules oriented in their approach to handling situations and solving problems in their day to day lives. &nbsp;Systems that are rules heavy provide a greater inclination to players to adhere to them more strictly regardless of whether they actually need to. &nbsp;In many cases these expansive rules sets are really only meant to help provide shape and situational support when gamers want them, but regrettably their very presence results in players wanting to use them more than they actually need to. &nbsp;This is made all the more difficult when players actively work within the rules system to level up their characters with certain advantages to handle specific situations and then find themselves wondering if they really needed to if the rules are being relaxed too much. In my experience I've played games that used systems as heavily detailed as DnD 3.5 to systems that had no rules at all; just a GM that decided everything based on how creative players were with their imaginations. &nbsp;I can safely say that I've had equally enjoyable experiences at both ends of that spectrum. &nbsp;A lot of what makes a game successful is having a group of players and a GM that have enough self-awareness to keep in mind what really matters when gaming. Now this is not to say that I support the notion that rules are ultimately useless. &nbsp;Rather I'd say that rules simply need to take a back-seat to creative storytelling. &nbsp;Rules can be very useful in provided parameters that help shape a game. &nbsp;Their mechanics should be used to help reveal how characters are expected to interact with each other and the setting, even when they aren't being used. &nbsp;For instance, with DnD as an example, the fact that Sorcerors don't need to prepare spells in advance like a Wizard does relates a ton of information about how magic works in that particular setting. So in summation, Rules don't need to be a barrier if you don't want them to be. &nbsp;Just keep in mind what your goals are in regards to how you use them.

There are other table top rpg games that are less combat/rule heavy. Check out Fiasco <a href="http://tabletop.geekandsundry.com/episodes/fiasco-alison-haislip-bonnie-burton-and-john-rogers-join-wil-on-tabletop-episode-8/" rel="nofollow">http://tabletop.geekandsundry.com/episodes/fiasco-alison-haislip-bonnie-burton-and-john-rogers-join-wil-on-tabletop-episode-8/</a> &nbsp; Dice rolls help set up relationships, the scene, etc...while still allowing a good degree of choice. 90% of the game is role play and success is determined by vote.

Yeah "Fiasco" is good, "Dogs in the Vineyard" (majorly less known. Haven't seen anyone on here ever play it.), I think there's another one called "Dread", just a few off the top of my head. I'm quite interested in Dungeon World now though as well.. Sounds fun.

while I agree with you Phillip, I think inexperienced GM's like me will have a harder time modifying rule heavy systems for their needs.&nbsp; Played Fiasco once with my group and it worked quite well, and I know there are rules for several sessions but we decided that it was more of a one-shot game for us.

The great thing is that there are so many game options on the market right now, both commercial and free, that you can pretty much pick your poison.

Durzo Ninefinger said: while I agree with you Phillip, I think inexperienced GM's like me will have a harder time modifying rule heavy systems for their needs.&nbsp; Played Fiasco once with my group and it worked quite well, and I know there are rules for several sessions but we decided that it was more of a one-shot game for us. Really, outside of combat you can do whatever you want rules-wise. I think you're actually specifically looking for a game system with RP-related rules, so that there is still an element of not having full control of what happens. I definitely understand why you would want to go to a different system because of that.

The problem with D&amp;D isn't that it doesn't let you roll, it's that it follows the "go ahead!" with "...but unless you're a ____, your chance of success is abysmal".

I first started playing D&amp;D when I was 12, with those blue dice that came in the box. Back then it was so basic, if you did more than 5 points to your enemy it felt like you were the hero of your favorite saturday morning cartoon. But even then combat was slow, and you only faced what you met behind a door. Nowadays, GMs think so much outside the box, from the various source materials (books, film, tv, anime) that facing a room full of anything can be a long process no one would want to enter into... I did not return to D&amp;D until I was 19, when the son of my dad's tennis friend introduced me to how he and his friends had been playing it through out their high school days. Their DM adapted a critical hit chart from an old White Dwarf magazine (this is back in the 80s, before it was just Warhammer material) and no longer did the enemy hit you for just a d4, d6, or d8... Or in the 2nd edition rules for the possibility of more damage on a second d20 roll.&nbsp; With their chart. You rolled three 6 sided dice, 2 of 1 color, and 1 of a different color together. And based on that combination, your d4, d6, or d8 of damage was modified based on a location. IF you rolled lucky, you hit that kobold in the heart, and he died instantly because the damage was multiplied by 6, we've since toned it down to 5... If you rolled unlucky, you stabbed him in the hip, and it was just the basic damage, no modifier, in fact some locations did half damage cause of it's&nbsp;proximity&nbsp;to bone or primarily flesh and no organs... But there were over 40 combinations, because 2d6 +another d6 allowed for anything to happen. Factor in (sorry more numbers) a thief's backstab ability, a girdle of fire giant strength, a +4 sword... and your d4, d6, d8 had some ridiculous numbers behind it! You could destroy an ogre in 1 round, you could take on that dragon with your team, and not expect to just be breathed upon aimlessly... UNFORTUNATELY... the same went for the enemy. If you stuck yourself into a bad situation, a falling trap, surrounded by gnolls, what have you... it could go very bad indeed, very fast... Thank god for haste, stoneskin and flight. My point is I guess, yes D&amp;D is numbers heavy, whatever addition you use. But with the right numbers... your game can be COMBAT RICH! Instead of combat annoying...&nbsp;

AW and DW are probably the best games I have ever played in my 25 year gaming history, but I like the narrative part of the game over the mechanics which is needed to play such a game.

Rob H. said: The problem with D&amp;D isn't that it doesn't let you roll, it's that it follows the "go ahead!" with "...but unless you're a ____, your chance of success is abysmal". This is somewhat true, there is rules behind it to state, "yes, if your in full plate metal armor, your going to have a bad day jumpin in the pond". Or "Yes, if you have good dexterity, tumbling past the enemy without getting hit will be easy!" But if you have a 9 strenth, dont expect to carry a mini-van or if you have 10 dex dont be expecting any great amount of co-ordination. The game is based in fantasy yes, but was designed to have a sense of realism. Can you do a double backflip over an enemy, who is threatening you, to land well enough and balanced enough to stab them from behind in 3-4 seconds? I know I can't lol. now that i have finished ranting, i will throw out my advice. for things you use ALOT (initiative, attack rolls, flanking, charges, saves, and anything else i may have missed) do your self and your players a favour, and write out quick reference cards. If you are playing on this website, the hand outs that DM's can make are a great tool for this. Then if anyone forgets just what dice to roll for what, or how exactly charging works, you have your handy dandy little reference sheet. But, try to steer your players Twards what they know at the begining. Example: The kobold is running straight to Ruh, ignoring all others between it and the druid that infuriated it." This type of a comment in the chat/said aloud helps newer players to realize "Wait a tic, that thing is running by me, can i attack it?" so that they remember they can do it, you let them know they could do it, and you never really said a thing. This type of comments also helps with keeping your players interested. Instead of the "I move the hob-goblin chieftan 5 squares and attack Charles" you could say "The hob-goblin Cheiftan bellows 'Human! i will cleave the flesh from your bones for this Trespass!!' as it charges recklessly at Charles". Someone wants to spin around a enemy? Ask for a dexterity check, or acrobatics check if they have one, and you make up the dc needed from what YOU think would be a reasonable difficulty. The rules can be adjusted. you are the final say in all this. Lastly, dont be afraid to roleplay during combat, have the enemies toss insults at players, or howl and growl if they can't speak. Big baddie of the campaign? Find a excuse to have him stop the combat for a minute or two to roleplay, and he will be more memorable. These are all little trick you will pick up as you play. All i can say is don't give up yet, and ask your members to stick with you a little longer on this :D

I think one of the major things about D&amp;D or any role playing game for that matter is deciding which rules you want to apply in your campaign. You are the game master, after all, if your players don't like a rule you get to decide whether to throw it out the window or not. Sure, the rule is there if you need to use it, but if it gets in the way of fun, then... don't. I think one of the things that lulls combat down is all the dice rolling. Roll X check, find Y modifier, some people don't like that or all the number crunching. Combat doesn't always have to be about rolling dice, do it when it's fun. After all, there's just something satisfying about shaking a double fist full of d6s for that massive fireball spell. Another thing... different players like different things. Some players like challenging fights where they are down on death's door at every the end of every one. Others don't. Especially for the little fights. Enemies don't have to use all their most powerful abilities. If the fight is drawing on too long, cut the players some slack and let them mop up the mobs a little quicker. It gets the combat moving quicker and makes it seem less drawn out. As for saying no to your players... you should always try to keep that to a minimum, IMHO. After all, what ideas they can come up with... you can always use against them if they get too strong. =)