For Bless - Druid Herbalism

Druid Herbalism - After reading. Boy is this a lazily written ability . Typical Paizo though.  I'm writing it here so I can format it clearer lol.  And in case anyone else ends up taking this somehow.  Gathering materials.  There isn't any ruling on what this means or what it takes. But under foraging under survival it calls out using half your overland speed to gather enough food and water for every person for each 2 points you exceed a DC survival check. Your Druid Herbalism isn't giving you any special access to said materials so you would need to make forage (I think you assumed that from you survival skill) and make survival checks. I would say one potion is one serving so following that same method you should be able to use Survival to forage. Your overland speed at 20 feet means in 30 mins you travel 3960 feet (half of 1.5 miles) (a the lowest possible figure, it doesn't matter I suppose if you declare you are foraging, the entire party will move as fast as you move) So example, if you set off with Bless and you want to head out for a stroll in the swamp. You spend half the overland speed foraging. You roll a Survival check Which your survival check is +10. Say you decide to just take 10 (assuming you aren't dangerous terrority) and that gives you a total 20. That is 5 times over the dc of 10, or in other words 5 bunch of herbs. Each bunch is used for one potion.  I did read on page 10 of Heros of the Wild, it says: Golarion abounds in useful herbs, most of which can be found in the wild with an hour of foraging and a successful Profession (herbalist) check (with a DC determined by the herb and terrain), though some must be processed with Craft (alchemy) before their qualities awaken. Each check in the same area for the same herb increases the DC by 5. But I think those are for the specific herbs listed on that page. In case you were ever curious about them. "Acts like brew potion feat" "Druid Spells only" "Typically thick and sludy" "creation time, caster level, spell duplication capabilities, and all other variables and properties are identical to those of potions created using Brew Potion" So here this tells me that even though it costs nothing, you still have to spend 2 hours for each potion you want to make (<250 gp minimum 2 hours a day according to brew potion) Pretty clear cut and you can't do anything over 3rd level (just like Brew Potions) You still have to provide any magical components (expensive ones not stupid stuff like a frog's leg and a spider eye) and the foci to cast the spell.  You have to be the one casting it (which i think you mentioned already) Spells of Personal cannot be made into potions.  All ingredients must be fresh and unused.  "A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier" So you can make X potions a day, for free (no gp cost) upto your wis modifier, which currently is set at +6.  You can make all 6 in a 12 hour period. No sweat there.  You can also sell them, regardless if you choose to or not is not my concern. I think player's are allowed to make money.  It does mention this (though NPCs unfamiliar with druidic herbalism may need some convincing before purchasing these wares).  Druids of course exist though most common folk would not know what these things are that they are trying to sell. It certainly can be sold,  but we're getting into the realm of Bargaining under Diplomacy at that point.  Because when it comes down to it, you are selling a Cure light wounds potion that looks like veggie smoothie made with a blunted blender and the local wizard or cleric is selling a clean and professional looking cocktail of goodness. ;) The 7th level ability that lets you mimic Alchemist Infusion those last for 1 day just like an Alchemist.  otherwise, good to go.  Let me know if I missed anything or have any concerns!

Listed concerns: The way you are running it is making it so I need to spend twice as long(negating the benefits of the class feature completely as I could just spend that time brewing potions and then sell them. So mathematically it would be giving me a druid-only, double time but 0 cost(no net gain) brew potion which is really not okay with me as this should be equivalent power level to a druid domain), and while I agree I need ingredients it doesn't list that they need to be fresh(though I obviously agree with unused), in fact it explicitly calls out dried herbs as a possible ingredient. Further the ingredients are listed as mundane ingredients(though I don't know if you were implying they weren't I just wanted to clarify) so a more realistic scenario would be literally everyone in the party rolls survival checks(Sam, Me, Burnie, Grumblejack, Sandow, Carmilla, Azor) and I would probably end up with(on average) 18 servings worth of potion materials so we would only need to do it for 1/5ish days. Further since the materials aren't supposed to be rare and don't need to be fresh I would assume I could buy them at a farmer's market or herbalist(if those exist in Talingarde, this place is a little weird). You did also forget the part where I can add herbs to the potion and when you drink the potion you also gain the effect of the herb(this is for the herbs listed in the book) and your math was off on the gathering as DC 10 nets 1 and 1 more for +2 beyond that so a 20 result would leave me with 6 worth of materials.

Helcack  said: Listed concerns: The way you are running it is making it so I need to spend twice as long(negating the benefits of the class feature completely as I could just spend that time brewing potions and then sell them. How do you you get twice as long? In fact this ability allows you to create 6 times the effect of a normal potion brewer because regardless if it takes 2 hours to make a cheap potion, it still takes 1 day for each 1000 gp in it's cost. So when you get to level 7, and can start injecting level 4 spells into these puppies for free I don't see how you're not getting a huge advantage. You still get to make them for 2 hours each regardless of their cost in comparison to their potion equivalent .  To the second point, if you were to brew potions and sell them you would net nothing, as you can only sell them for half (barring any discount traits or feats or abilities you might have).  Helcack  said: Listed concerns: while I agree I need ingredients it doesn't list that they need to be fresh(though I obviously agree with unused), in fact it explicitly calls out dried herbs as a possible ingredient.  And I have no issue with proper preservation, I actually enjoy cooking in real life and there are plenty of spices and herbs that have an amazing shelf life. So as long as you do the same, I've got no issue with that.  Helcack  said: Listed concerns: Further the ingredients are listed as mundane ingredients (though I don't know if you were implying they weren't I just wanted to clarify).  I suppose I wasn't putting that much thought into what the herbs are as much as you are doing your druid thing and instead of putting for gold pieces to get the "magic essence" if you will to brew a potion, you can just KNOW what can be combined.  I actually thought that is what the designers were going for here, some sort of ability that allows a druid to literally take from the earth and make what those who study their entire lives to do seem as though it is almost child's play. (Druid vs wizard for example) Helcack  said: Listed concerns: so a more realistic scenario would be literally everyone in the party rolls survival checks(Sam, Me, Burnie, Grumblejack, Sandow, Carmilla, Azor) and I would probably end up with(on average) 18 servings worth of potion materials so we would only need to do it for 1/5ish days. I agree. I think anyone can use survival. I was mainly just targeting you because I didn't know what others would do in the same time traveling. They may decide to craft something else or train while you could be out surveying the land.   Helcack  said: Listed concerns: Further since the materials aren't supposed to be rare and don't need to be fresh I would assume I could buy them at a farmer's market or herbalist(if those exist in Talingarde, this place is a little weird). I agree that they aren't rare. I don't think I made it a point to say they were. But they are --needed-- so you should either buy them or exude the elbow grease to go get them. As a druid would have no issue doing, in fact I would say most druid would feel awkward going to a city to do what they can do easily in the wilderness.  Yes No? Helcack  said: Listed concerns: You did also forget the part where I can add herbs to the potion and when you drink the potion you also gain the effect of the herb(this is for the herbs listed in the book) and your math was off on the gathering as DC 10 nets 1 and 1 more for +2 beyond that so a 20 result would leave me with 6 worth of materials. I didn't forget, I know you can do that (I believe  that is what is quoted on page 10 of heroes of the wild) but I didn't see how it pertains to this ability.    To wrap up, I'm not sure if we are actually that far off in how we think this ability works. I am going to rule it works functionally like brew potion, except you spend no money to do it.  Is the reservation of my reply more about having to gather herbs? I didn't think it would add all that much to your overall effort. Especially if you start getting into the realm of cohorts and associates helping you.  I think alone, it's a fantastic ability. Which makes going solo so easy to do. I don't think it was ever intended to 1. Replace Brew Potion 2. Turn you into the assembly line of potion making. 

I was assuming that I would be the only one that could collect stuff(so 8 hours to grab it and 8 hours to craft means double time) and I was talking about the level 1 version but I was also thinking you were meaning the stuff was special herbs that I had to collect. I'm totally fine with how you're running it then, I guess I just misunderstood because you only had me spending 8 hours gathering stuff in your example. I thought you just wanted me to include something if you didn't see it is why I included the last thing. So basically we agreed on everything and it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

Helcack said: I was assuming that I would be the only one that could collect stuff(so 8 hours to grab it and 8 hours to craft means double time) and I was talking about the level 1 version but I was also thinking you were meaning the stuff was special herbs that I had to collect. I'm totally fine with how you're running it then, I guess I just misunderstood because you only had me spending 8 hours gathering stuff in your example. I thought you just wanted me to include something if you didn't see it is why I included the last thing. So basically we agreed on everything and it was just a misunderstanding on my part. I think the spending 8 hours thing would be if you all decided to do a long march across the nation and then you decide to spend half that time gathering materials. 

Info I found for Herbalism in Ultimate Wilderness Gathering Herbs: Gathering herbs is similar to foraging and can be accomplished while you are traveling or as your sole activity during an 8-hour period. If you gather herbs while traveling, your overland speed is halved. Spending 8 hours doing nothing but gathering herbs from the area grants 1 additional yield of each herb you’re gathering. When you start your day of herb gathering, you must declare which herb you are looking for. If you have 5 ranks of Profession (herbalist), you can search for two different types of herbs at once, and for each additional 5 ranks you have in this skill, you can search for one additional herb, to a maximum of 5 herbs at once if you have 20 ranks in Profession (herbalist). Each herb listed below has a gather DC. At the end of the time spent gathering, attempt a Profession (herbalist) or Knowledge (nature) check against each herb’s gather DC. If the terrain you are searching in is one of your favored terrains, you can attempt a Survival check instead. If the herb in question is present in the region you searched (this is always subject to the GM’s discretion), success results in a single yield of that herb. Success by 5 or more grants 1 extra yield. Success by 10 or more grants 2 extra yields. A single yield of herb weighs 1/10 of a pound unless otherwise noted in its yield section in the stats below. In addition to determining whether a particular herb is available to gather in a region, the GM also determines how many attempts to gather that herb can be attempted in the region. Typically, a region can support 1d4 herb-gathering expeditions before the herbs must be given 2d6 months to regrow. Preparing Herbs: Most herbs must be prepared to unlock their potency. If this is the case for an herb, its stat block describes the method required to process it, the Craft (alchemy) DC to accomplish this task, and the amount of time needed to do so. A Profession (herbalist) check can be conducted instead of a Craft (alchemy), but the DC of the check to prepare the herb increases by 5 in this case. If the preparer fails this check by 5 or more, the dose of the herb is ruined; if she fails by less, she can try again with the same herbs. Preparing Multiple Herbs: An herbalist can normally prepare one type of herb per day, but she can prepare a number of doses of that single type of herb equal to her ranks in Profession (herbalist). An herbalist with 7 or more ranks in Profession (herbalist) can simultaneously prepare a second type of herb. At 14 ranks in Profession (herbalist), the character can prepare up to three types of herbs at the same time. Herb Lifespan: A raw, unprepared herb spoils 24 hours after it is harvested. A prepared herb spoils after 1 month unless otherwise noted in its Use entry. HERBS The herbs presented below are intended to represent a wide range of helpful plants; you can use these as examples for the creation of new herbs. Each herb is presented in its own stat block. The first line of the block presents the name and the price the herb is sold for in markets and herbalist shops. This is followed by a brief description of the herb’s appearance. The next entry provides the DC of the Profession (herbalist) check to find and gather the herb with a day’s worth of work. This is followed by the yield—the base number of doses that can be gathered each day. Extra yields can be gained with greater success on a gathering roll or by taking an entire day to do nothing but gather herbs. After that, the block provides the terrain the herb appears in. This is followed by information about how the herb must be prepared in order for it to be used. Finally, the use for the prepared herb is detailed at the end of the stat block. Applying, eating, or using a prepared herb typically requires a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, unless otherwise specified in the description. It then lists several types of herbs that can be found with stats. Sorry for wall of text lol

Nice find thank you for the clarification!  Bless does this alter anything you were still wanting to do? 

Those were the rules I was using for gathering herbs before, um I though I linked them to you? Maybe I linked the wrong thing.That is a separate subsystem that was introduced for people using the profession(herbalist) skill or the knowledge(nature) skill. The herbalism druid class ability is different than that. There are also Herbalist archetypes for the witch, and a couple other classes that were released in the same book. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear when I linked the rules before. They are related I guess, in that those are the herbs you can add to the potions(but some of them don't really make sense to do that with how they are normally used)

Gotcha, those apply to something else. My latest reading and ruling over this: After reading this over and over again and reading Brew Potion -- I've been so concerned over how you gather all these herbs that when it comes down to it, I don't think you need to do any gathering for random herbs ( For the druid herbalism ability) .  When a normal potion creator is at work they aren't going around finding their spider legs, their frog legs, their horse hair. That stuff is just in the creators (spell pouch). So I'm not going to have you do that. But if you wanted to make those special things like what is mentioned in heroes of the wild and ultimate wilderness you will need to spend 8 hours and make survival checks or herbalist checks.  Before I give an example now of how I think this works I'm going to reiterate the finer points of Brewing Potions and the changes due to Druid Herbalism (This is mostly for my understanding and not because of any assumptions that you didn't explain the rules) It must be a spell of 3rd level or lower. It can only be druid spells. It must have a  casting time  of less than 1 minute. It must target one or more creatures or objects. It must not have a range of personal. Default Crafting a potion DC is 5 + CL Default Creation time is 2 hours per potion You must expend a druid spell for each potion you make. ( although access through another magic item or druid is allowed ) You may rush the Creation to 1 hour per potion at the increase dc of +5 You can create a number of potions equal to your Wisdom modifier.  You must provide any costly material components (things listed with a currency value) You can work for up to 8 hours each day. The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Should you manage to achieve a wisdom high enough you theoretically could be capped based on time alone. You would of course need a very large wisdom score to hit that cap.  You can continue devote 4 hours over the 8 hour period each day to  item creation . If not a devoted 4 hour block, you instead do 2 hours worth of work during that time. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine.  At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually  Spellcraft , but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. You may use Spellcraft or Craft(Alchemy) Aid Another is not possible until the Aiding individual as the cooperative crafting feat, the same item feat, or Druid Herbalism Since you (in private) disclosed you don't want to sell these we'll just save ourselves the headache and say you can't sell them. (But you could trade them with members of Druid/tribal/green faith worshiper circles for face value of a normal potion. The Example: Bless is currently a level 1 druid (with I think 2 extra caster levels from some abilities so lets call him a caster level +3 druid)  Bless has a wisdom modifier of +6. He wants to make some Concoctions with his Druid Herbalism ability. He has 3 first level spots per day He chooses Cure Light wounds (3) @ a Caster Level of 3.  He wants to make them in less time so he rushes. DC for each potion is now 13. In three hours he makes three functional copies of a Cure Light Wound Potion. Worth nothing to the normal world. Possibly worth 150gp in trade.  Since he technically still has 5 usable hours, he could go ahead and make 3 other detect magic potions.