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Descent into Avernus Battle Maps

Not sure if these are the right maps, but why do all the battle maps looks like bare outlines? The DMG Ship layout looks good, but all the rest.. Elfsong, Low Lantern, High hall... etc.  All look like something generated from davesmapper - stonewerks.  This is no where near the battlemap quality of the other modules (Curse of Strahd, Storm Kings Thunder...).  Is this intended?  Is there another update with high quality maps?  Why are they all not like the DMG Ship?  I honestly feel like I'm being trolled.  Are these just placeholder maps?  You look at the awesome art of Eturel and then I'm almost embarrassed to show my players the battlemap of... well anywhere.
Here's an example of in-game: Here's an example of a teaser map:
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Spren
Sheet Author
This is how they look. Ever since Waterdeep they have moved from color maps to these line ones on white backgrounds. It's cheaper for them and people that play at tables say they like them better. Us on the VTT's are stuck with using them or finding resources to make our own. I haven't seen or heard anything from Wizards of the Coast saying that they are going back to the old way. The modules are selling better than ever, even with the inferior maps, so it's a no-brainer for them to go with the cheaper maps.
Wow, that's... very disappointing.
Ya, after a bit of research the teaser I found was from Beadle & Grimm's special limited edition.  I can't say how disappointed I am in the direction of the battlemaps.  
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Scott "JokersWyld" said: Ya, after a bit of research the teaser I found was from Beadle & Grimm's special limited edition.  I can't say how disappointed I am in the direction of the battlemaps.   You should voice this to Wizards of the Coast. I'm not a big fan of them either for VTT use (although I do prefer it for a print book), but there's really nothing that Roll20 can do about it. It would certainly be nice if WotC would license a third party to sell enhancements for on-line play.
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David Hemenway
Pro
Marketplace Creator
I feel the same about the recent rise of low-quality line maps. One of the reasons I got into mapmaking (and made a career out of it eventually) is because I was constantly remaking simple line maps from modules and adventure paths for my players. I believe a good map does half the work in describing a scene, and I hope to see this trend turn the other way. 
I may be the only person as a player I really liked the black and white maps
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Munky
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Just putting this out there, if WotC ever wants an artist to remake the VTT Maps, I would be 100% willing to do so! I think they look great in the books, but they are definitely lacking in the VTT space. I can't even begin to count how many of these threads have opened up about this exact topic. Just hire one of us artists from here already! I even sent my portfolio to them like 6 months ago for this exact reason, no response yet ):
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Loren the GM
Pro
Marketplace Creator
@Munky & @keithkurtis - Unfortunately, it is worse than that. They have actively removed high-quality remade maps from the DM's Guild for both Dragon Heist and Saltmarsh (and I assume the trend will continue with Avernus). That seems like the perfect marketplace to allow map makers to create replacements, but has so far proven to be a hostile place for map makers.
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Munky
Pro
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Compendium Curator
Loren the GM said: @Munky & @keithkurtis - Unfortunately, it is worse than that. They have actively removed high-quality remade maps from the DM's Guild for both Dragon Heist and Saltmarsh (and I assume the trend will continue with Avernus). That seems like the perfect marketplace to allow map makers to create replacements, but has so far proven to be a hostile place for map makers. It feels like it is very friendly and welcoming for writers but not at all for cartographers, but what can you do. I'll keep my fingers crossed for them to reach out to me one day. That would be a dream come true job!
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
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API Scripter
Loren the GM said: @Munky & @keithkurtis - Unfortunately, it is worse than that. They have actively removed high-quality remade maps from the DM's Guild for both Dragon Heist and Saltmarsh (and I assume the trend will continue with Avernus). That seems like the perfect marketplace to allow map makers to create replacements, but has so far proven to be a hostile place for map makers. Were they licensed maps?
I still think that it's odd that Roll20 wouldn't just either A: Commission a mapmaker and just charge a couple more bucks or B: Ask the community here and incorporate the best... It seems... shortsighted...
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Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
Scott "JokersWyld" said: I still think that it's odd that Roll20 wouldn't just either A: Commission a mapmaker and just charge a couple more bucks or B: Ask the community here and incorporate the best... It seems... shortsighted... It is not wanting to get in legal trouble with a game company providing them the product.
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
A is against the license, and B is flat out illegal.
You can't help but feel Wizards of the Coast really don't value the players using roll20. They must have a separate licencing arrangement with the Beadle and Grimm guys if they're allowing them to include detailed and coloured alternatives to the Logos maps, so there must be some reason they are unwilling or unable to do the the same with roll20. I wonder if they'll change their tune when DnD Beyond inevitably pivots into offering the VTT experience.
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Loren the GM
Pro
Marketplace Creator
keithcurtis said: Were they licensed maps? Initially, they appeared to be covered under the standard DMs Guild license. They have more recently added language to their license that only allows maps of existing content when it is combined with other material such as an original adventure, or materials that expand on a published adventure (for instance, there are several guides to the various parts of Dragon Heist that include maps). I'm sure there are licensing reasons for this (which were definitely not defined at the time of Dragon Heist, when much of this art was generated), but my point is rather the DMs Guild is where artists should be able to engage with the adventures. I'd love for WotC to revisit this and allow new maps to be published there - or as others have suggested, for Roll20 to take this on and license new maps (it would seem if Beadle and Grimm can achieve that sort of license, so should Roll20 be able to). I'd personally be willing to pay a premium for new maps on Roll20 - perhaps keep the original adventure as is, and have a $40 new map pack add-on as well (to cover the cost of the licenses maps)?
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Munky
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Loren the GM said: Initially, they appeared to be covered under the standard DMs Guild license. They have more recently added language to their license that only allows maps of existing content when it is combined with other material such as an original adventure, or materials that expand on a published adventure (for instance, there are several guides to the various parts of Dragon Heist that include maps). I'm sure there are licensing reasons for this (which were definitely not defined at the time of Dragon Heist, when much of this art was generated), but my point is rather the DMs Guild is where artists should be able to engage with the adventures. I'd love for WotC to revisit this and allow new maps to be published there - or as others have suggested, for Roll20 to take this on and license new maps (it would seem if Beadle and Grimm can achieve that sort of license, so should Roll20 be able to). I'd personally be willing to pay a premium for new maps on Roll20 - perhaps keep the original adventure as is, and have a $40 new map pack add-on as well (to cover the cost of the licenses maps)? I feel the same exact way. And that's just for the Adventures. Personally, I have made several of the FR City maps for my own games, and I would love to release them publicly, but that is not allowed, and outside of the select few that Schley has created, there is a huge gap of quality city maps for one of the most popular settings in all of D&D.
Hello all, The  Roll20 Community Code of Conduct  states : The Roll20 Forums exist to discuss topics directly related to the use of the Roll20 program. Anything that more fittingly could be discussed on another website SHOULD be discussed there. H ere are some good places to discuss this topic: /r/rpg /r/dnd As this post is considered Off-Topic for Roll20, I am going to close this post. We thank you for your understanding.
Hi everyone! We are going to re-open this thread as we view this conversation as valuable feedback to bring back to Wizards of the Coast. Do continue to keep things respectful and within our Code of Conduct. Responses that violate the CoC will be removed. As for our role in how maps are converted, we create every module as close to the book as possible. The assets are provided from Wizards of the Coast and the process to change them is not possible at this time. However, as stated earlier, we pass along feedback we receive, but if you would like to provide more direct feedback to Wizards of the Coast you can do that here: Link
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Edited 1569464006
keithcurtis
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Thanks Drespar! I have done back fed them. And yes, that's the past tense, because I said so.
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Munky
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Thanks Drespar, You rock!!! I've tossed feedback and even a portfolio to them. Fingers still crossed for a call back!
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The Aaron
Roll20 Production Team
API Scripter
I let them know what I though also!  =D
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Spren
Sheet Author
Aniond said: I may be the only person as a player I really liked the black and white maps This makes me wish a player could choose. Like if a GM had two versions of a map, black and white or full color, the player could pick the one they prefer. Imagine a little slider on the side that increased or decreased details. Wishful thinking I know, but I felt like sharing.
1569497905
The Aaron
Roll20 Production Team
API Scripter
I was thinking about a system precisely like this for a completely different reason. A limited sight individual reached out to me for some help using Roll20. One of the biggest challenges for him (and my other friends with limited sight) is getting the map to be visible in a way that he can make out what is going on. Being able to present a high contrast alternative map, with extra markings, would be great for that case. It could also be used for alternate languages, or even to give some players more information. 
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MrValor
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Marketplace Creator
Drespar said: Hi everyone! We are going to re-open this thread as we view this conversation as valuable feedback to bring back to Wizards of the Coast. Do continue to keep things respectful and within our Code of Conduct. Responses that violate the CoC will be removed. As for our role in how maps are converted, we create every module as close to the book as possible. The assets are provided from Wizards of the Coast and the process to change them is not possible at this time. However, as stated earlier, we pass along feedback we receive, but if you would like to provide more direct feedback to Wizards of the Coast you can do that here: Link Thank you Drespar! I'm going there right now. I appreciate you reopening this topic and letting us chime in. I additionally want to thank you for that link!
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Edited 1569605743
Surok
Roll20 Production Team
Yea...I'm not a big fan of the new art direction for dungeon maps WOTC has taken. Unfortunately that isn't a unanimous opinion since some people do prefer the more basic layout. Perhaps as people increasingly use Roll20 or other VTTs in meatspace demand for higher quality will follow. Until then there are a few options: 1. Use the basic maps as the background template to over lay dungeon tiles over them. Easiest way would be to purchase said tiles from the Roll20 marketplace. 2. Wait for people to make high quality detailed maps. Usually you can find these with a Google search. I know a few people made some excellent ones for Dungeon of The Mad Mage and were freely available. Not sure about the legality but since they weren't charging for these, who knows (though my personal take would be it's more akin to fan art). I dunno if WOTC counts on the DND community making their own maps hence why bother making good ones if DMs are going to make better ones on their own. The draw back is these maps usually take several months to appear so you won't have them available on day 1.
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Edited 1569629083
I am in the process of reskinning some of the deeper levels of Undermountain (1-9 you can find online). I agree that it is a pain when you describe a really detailed scene to your players and all they see is a blank white room. Would love to see them bring back quality maps.
dmsguild has colored maps for chapter 1 along with some useful changes to the adventure flow.
Yeah, Valeur RPG have produced some good alternate maps. (they have done this for all the Logos map modules) I won't link it directly here but the first two chapters can be found on dmsguild under the titles 'A Tale of Two Cities' and 'Elturel has Fallen'. 
Wholeheartedly agree Chris (maphatter).  Your maps are beautiful and thought out.  I hope you see further success and get your point across to WotC.  Look forward to your KS.
I have removed a post regarding creation of maps to replace official WotC maps-- while we understand the intention, the post was crossing the line into outside advertising and sales (See our Code of Conduct ). To clarify, mentioning that you are working on maps is fine, but also plugging where to support financially in the endeavor crosses the line of our CoC. Thank you all again for the great conversation and understanding :)
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Edited 1570754102
The MapHatter
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Heya Drespar, no problem, that's all on me, sometimes passion gets the better of policy, won't happen again and thanks for your understanding. And thank you Scott - much appreciated.