A different kind of game...

I'm looking to use pathfinder, but am looking for more than just a dungeon delving game...that would of course be a part of it, but I'm thinking more intrigue, politics, world-contribution than just searching for traps attacking with your sword or casting a heal. Low lvl doesn't really hold interest for me. Looking for a game where characters are citizens that can affect the outcome of world events. I am checking out copper rooster, has some good ideas, but it basically reverts to 5 man dungeon groups--which would be pretty restricting when there are hundreds of players. I love the idea of an on-going campaign with multiple parties though. I think Bast has the right idea on the way he is taking things in that direction.

also...no or few wands or potions...overuse of wands in these games imho is stupid...wands should not replace healers or other essential classes...relative rarity of magic items in genearl...imho wands should be approx. 100x their current cost.

D&D is pretty integrally tied to magic items to enhance the party's survivability and ability to combat higher level enemies. It takes a significant amount of re-working to make it work with a low-magic setting. D&D and its derivatives (Pathfinder and such) are also very combat-centric. Other systems are more balanced with RP/story as well as combat, and other's still very little combat. Are you sticking to high fantasy, or would you be open to a total change of pace like ShadowRun or Vampire: The Masquerade, Fiasco, Call of Cthulu , etc ?

actually...it's really not, just depends on how difficult the DM wants to make encounters....if you have every character in the party owning a cure serious wand...that is not good for gameplay. And while it's combat centric, it is a role-playing game rather than a combat game. The story is more important than combat--only power gamers think of D&D as a combat game. I love shadowrun and have enjoyed vampire before too...not tooooo into the whole vampire thing in general though, but I know what you're getting at with Vampire and intrigue--great game for that.

It's how smart the players play too. I constantly see behaviors in players that completely defy every sense of survival you'd hope for them to have. If you take away wands, and give them one healer, they should be fine, even without the DM toning things down, as long as they play smart. And if they're not fine, a total party wipe will do them some good.

I've seen some interesting Pathfinder campaigns that were combat centric, but it was only because the players made it that way. If the DM plays it right, the game doesn't have to be as combative as everyone needs it to be. On another note, people play Pathfinder, D&D, things like that to kill things. It's midevil times, it's kill shit because that's what they did. So, getting a good campaign as you want would take very mature players. Blaeringr is right, in saying that for your idea, it would be best to use another form of game :D

One of the things that disappointed me about DDO was that it allowed characters to purchase wands really, really easily...it basically ruined the game. imho, if you want combat-centric, play something mmorpg or an FPS. You can fight lots and lots of monsters--kill lots of shit. What table top (or virtual table top) lets you do is use your imagination. This means, while you might be playing a wizard or a knight, your character can have its own goals, desires, quirks, choices, that a computer run game cannot allow. Wait, you mean you want to smuggle or kelly's heroes-like rob a bank in the middle of a besieged city or...go fight the evil empire...whatever YOU WANT can happen. A lot of times, DMs will have a storyline to investigate, but it isn't necessary. And I assure you, Pathfinder, swords and sorcery, is a fantastic vehicle for that kind of gaming--far better than it is for hack and slash boredom. Shadowrun is actually kind of limited in this regard because of the corporate structure--you're always under the gun. But borderlands, adventure, untamed territory is all possible in pathfinder because it is much harder to project power beyond a castle's walls or a city. You are correct though that it takes mature, imaginative players and a DM who doesn't need every room scripted. I mean, modules are really nice, but once you've run about 100 of them, a DM should have some stock ideas plus imagination to bring a campaign to life. Yeah, I have a wow hunter with a 2k arena rating...and he has a triceratops pet. He runs a guild that does the same thing every other guild does. Although he can get the bloodsail admiral title, he can't really own a ship and use his epic bow in ship to ship combat as a smuggler or a hunting lodge or live completely off the land or start a mercenary archers unit that hires out to the city that pays the best or clear a dungeon and then use it as a hideout or fight crime in his favorite city with his detective skills. He can arena, bg and raid. That gets old. Virtual desktop should never be the same old thing. If it is, the DM needs to experience a game based on infinite possibility. And I would do it...I'd run a game like that to help show people, but I don't know these game rules that well. I'm an old AD&D 1st edition player. It'll be a bit before I'm comfortable running a game with the pathfinder rules--a game where in between my main campaign ideas, the characters can chart their own courses.

I have enjoyed what you wrote and do understand what you put down on computer paper for all to read.... I also believe in the clasic style of play and the spirit adnd 1.0 had.... where you can slap someone in the head and not be hit with a two handed sword cause of a rule saying your not trained ..... lol... please if you like to have a fellow old school gamer play.... let me know some times... I am working on dnd 4e with old school out look... where the players will choose what happens not a prewritten adventure........ :) and may the 20s find you

Pardon me if I budge in uninvited, but what you seek here through pathfinder (or any other d20) is generally discouraged, due to a missing mechanic from the very beginning; politics. Yes, it is politics that make people (or monsters) what they are, and what they do, but besides the "hidden necessity",you will not find many politics driven games. Why you may ask(?); it's because of MAGIC! No really, in fantasy games, magic is there to solve everything; you want to kill a monster, better get your +2 sward of awesaumesause and poof, it's gone; you want to persuade someone, or order them, to do your biding, well good thing there is Charm and Dominate spells around. These examples are bad yes, but you can see the point. But in essence, you are right Kalashar, lower the overall magic power of the world, and people should be "smarter" about their business, except they aren't. Why? Because they got so freaking used to it, and stepping up again is not worth the hassle! It's no fun to spend a week of plotting and scheming to get your agenda fulfilled, when you have magic to solve it in a day, and probably with less risk of overall failure (remember, the longer something lasts, or is in motion, the chance of something going wrong goes exponentially). And that is why you don't see many plot driven (by plot I mean a political agenda) d20 games, because it is "better" that way (by better I mean easier, for the better or worse of it). Now,please let me explain what I mean with the "political ploy" in games, before I run my "not that important" reputation into the "douchebag" spectrum. Politics is a force that doesn't measure in numbers, or can't be manifested at will. It is a complex connection of social interactions, favors and dept, facts and opinions, and most importantly, truths and lies. And yes, I can admit that before magic went "mainstream"; politics and scheming were the way to go, really; but when magic and faith got their spotlight, who would still bother with the "old ways"? Yes, nearly no one, because people are frigging lazy, and want to maximize "efficiency", in all shape and form (not that it is a bad thing mind you). So, how does this affect the current situation of tabletop gaming? Well, for most (I assume), it is a non issue. D&D from the start is meant to be played as "heroic knight saving the damsel in distress by slaying the dragon", which again, is NOT a bad thing, it really is not. But the only consequence out of it is that people got used to it to be "like that", and it only went "better" onward. Of course, there were, and still are, exceptions to this matter; Birthright Campaign Setting was political in essence I would assume (I haven't played it,and was to young back then to experience it in full glory); and even that is magic-fueled! But to sum it up, yes for tabletop games, imagination is the limit, except that limit is much greater than you would've imagined (pun intended). And, I would be very intrigued for a politics game without much magic for support, but I'll also be the first one to admit my hypocrisy, and say "I am not able to run such game due to lack of proper experience". Enjoy your day everyone, and please excuse my unnecessary demagogy that was put into this post.

Once again, pathfinder is not really an idea system for this. Consider a dark age version of Old World of Darkness instead. That's got plenty of "affect the world" without being "Combat olol OMG only think evhar"

My first experience with D&D was from when I was 9. When I was 9, killing 100 kobolds to gain a level was fun. It was new and entertaining. It is no longer. @Ghoster, again, I would say it depends entirely on the DM and his/her imagination, that only the pricing of certain types of magic make the system gimpy for balance and character. @animusu, I agree that the dungeon crawl style isn't...bad...and it could easily be included in a game with a political flavor. But it isn't just politics and intrigue I'm looking for, but for a chance for players to set their own characters' goals beyond slaying the dragon. The thing is, once those goals come into the picture, politics become a source of conflict for the characters. Once paladin saves said damsel, then what? Marry her? Keep her safe? Might be difficult given her father is a local Baron with some serious enemies. And yes, magic makes all things possible, but when same magic is on all sides... The most powerful character in the game I played years ago that had that goal-oriented flavor was not very magical. But there were many powerful characters, and power comes in many shapes and sizes. It was not, however, a monty hall game. Game of Thrones is a fairly good example...who is more powerful? Ned Stark or Varys? Tywin or Bran? @Anthony, may you be blessed with strange and original players...

Might I recommend 13th Age? Have a look at the systems in place, there's already a lot of RP built right into the creation of the character with the icon system and your one unique thing. The game itself is a combination of 3.5 and 4th edition D&D. I've been having a blast with it, might suit your needs. :)

As an aside, a big reason for wand availability is to help out divine casters. Wands of cure light wounds are there so they can use spell slots doing things other than healing, if they have that inclination. It's not to replace divine casters, but rather to give them the freedom to be more than a healer, if they so choose. To be fair though, I have never, ever seen a game where everyone had a wand of cure serious wounds. Or even one where everyone had the ability to use one, either through class or UMD. So maybe your pathfinder experiences are far different from mine.

ever play DDO?

@Ridrith that sounds pretty darned good.

No, I haven't played DDO. But if that's what you're basing it on, I'd recommend against applying your MMO experiences to tabletop games. I can tell you at least with pathfinder, that I've never been in a game where a divine caster felt useless because of healing wands and potions. But maybe there are games like that? *shrugs* As far as combat focused, it really depends on the DM and players. I've had sessions that were 90% combat, and sessions with 0 combat. So it varies.

Find a good GM and players and the system doesn't really matter too much. Specifically I would recommend trying to find a GM that would be willing to work some of your ideas into their game. I feel like you might be pulling a bit too much from your experiences in DDO. I've played it, and it's really not comparable to the tabletop experience. There's also a fair amount of nonsense going around about Pathfinder/D&D. I've run and played in D&D/Pathfinder games for many years. I've played in games where combat was rare, and when it did happen it was a result of in-depth roleplay and the stakes were always high. I've also played in games where there was zero roleplay and it was nothing but a slog through trash monsters to an experience reward. It all depends on the GM/Players. Also, in response to animusu's... Erm... Rant? The GM could simply introduce a law in their campaign that anti-magic fields are to be erected in places of government. There could be a world council that meet in the great forum that resides in the center of a dead-magic zone; a reminder of the horrible wars past. Heck, I could think of a dozen ways that the GM could remove magic from political situations, or enhance them through it. If roleplaying mechanics have to be built into the game for people to consider it worthwhile to roleplay, then I think there's a problem there. :P Anyways, good luck on finding a game you enjoy.

@Mora, your first line says it all. That's the reason for my post, I guess...looking for a DM/GM like the one I played with who changed the way I looked at gaming and its potential. Mark G. was right in that Vampire is really made for this style. It's built for it. I just don't particularly like...vampires. I especially don't like Vampires that are good guys and sparkle in teh sunshine. /facepalm But the one V:M game I played in was the closest thing to the AD&D game I played in and ran many years before. Shadowrun...LOVE the game, not great for this style.

Its not the best system, but I use cortex classic and my games sound similar to what you are looking for. there isn't much as far as healing goes, except time passing. I try to sandbox the world, but they usually have a large quest to undertake that deals with the entirety of the land. Sometimes they will pass right by something important, other times they will stumble across something I didn't want them to find yet. When my players do something that affect the world, it affects the world. Had a crew accidentally blow up a city because it was the one time no one questioned the motives. They became hunted and security increased every where. I had another crew that started a civil war in a western setting. Another crew overthrew a king...even though he was a decent king. They just wanted to be usurpers.