What are you looking for from paid?

Hello, Like it says on the tin what are you looking for when going into a paid game? Game Systems Characters (Generic, Unique, Varied or one class with different branchs) Length? (One-shot, Long-term) Maps Tokens Effects Music Extras What makes you say I'd play that for 5$.

To me nothing I refuse to pay someone for a game. They say I need money for sub. I reply use free then if you can't afford sub. They say I need it for market content. I reply you can just find as good stuff free and open source on google search. The say cost of time and labor. I say if you don't enjoy the game time to be a hobby then its not a hobby you should do. Fact is paying a GM is just dumping the cost of what the GM want from market and sub down to player in sense getting shit for free and passing the buck. The idea of pay to play would probably make most of the creators of these systems turn over in there grave.

What ShadowDragon said. I'd be willing to help and spread the cost of some campaign books etc across the whole group but that is not paying per session. 

Dyrewolff said: What ShadowDragon said. I'd be willing to help and spread the cost of some campaign books etc across the whole group but that is not paying per session.  Yes I am willing to chip in for a book or two, If whole party needs it. I am also all for given market gifts for b days and holidays. But flat paying someone to do something meant for a hobby of fun no way.

Firstly, I have never paid for a game.   But I don't disagree with the concept - we often pay for our hobbies and busy people who enjoy some RP are no different from people who pursue other paid hobbies.   Finding a DM at a perfect time for you to play can be difficult, and I can see people paying for the convenience.   I wouldn't begrudge a DM making some money doing something they just happen to enjoy. To answer your questions. Game Systems: At least the major systems.   Also a willingness for the DM to learn. Characters: This depends on the group, but I'd expect a paid DM to have exhaustive options. Length: A one-shot would need to be well written with an ending that didn't feel rushed.   A longer campaign would need to be comparable in quality to the better retail productions and probably almost episodic in nature. Maps: For me this is an absolute must.   The maps would ideally have a consistent art style, but failing that at least be of high quality.   "Guys we are just going to theatre of the mind this one" - no, not if I was paying (for 5e at least). Tokens: Go hand in hand with maps.   High quality and every mob/character covered.   No letter/number tokens. Effects: Not as vital as the previous two, but the more the better. Music: Yes.   Atmospheric and at the appropriate volume.   Sound effects would also be required IMO. Extras: I'd give this a generic yes.   If I was going to pay a DM I'd expect it to be a bit above the standard of the average game.   Even it if was a retail adventure I'd expect to see some extra effort. Hope that helps.

@kor If by chance I ever do pay to play (this most likely never happen) I would expect maps/tokens/music and such to be museum quality art. If I am paying I would want the absolute best of the best  No less. They want money there better be worth it. And not just good/high quality.

I am a paid DM, and if I had time to play in a game, my top three things I'd look for are: a) Consistent schedule and communication. b) DM is prepared for the session. c) DM knows the rules when it matters and can improvise consistently when it doesn't matter. Aside from that, run the game you want to run and I bet there are mature adults who will gladly pay for that opportunity, just like they pay for video games, Netflix streaming, and books.

Supwolli said: I am a paid DM, and if I had time to play in a game, my top three things I'd look for are: a) Consistent schedule and communication. b) DM is prepared for the session. c) DM knows the rules when it matters and can improvise consistently when it doesn't matter. Aside from that, run the game you want to run and I bet there are mature adults who will gladly pay for that opportunity, just like they pay for video games, Netflix streaming, and books. lmao That's a new one from paid GM Mature one's pay. Man you guys get bolder and bolder every time you defend yourself.  Just to be clear in your statement: Mature pay None Mature don't. Gotcha.

ShadowDragon said: Supwolli said: I am a paid DM, and if I had time to play in a game, my top three things I'd look for are: a) Consistent schedule and communication. b) DM is prepared for the session. c) DM knows the rules when it matters and can improvise consistently when it doesn't matter. Aside from that, run the game you want to run and I bet there are mature adults who will gladly pay for that opportunity, just like they pay for video games, Netflix streaming, and books. lmao That's a new one from paid GM Mature one's pay. Man you guys get bolder and bolder every time you defend yourself.  Just to be clear in your statement: Mature pay None Mature don't. Gotcha. Google translate not working, please help.

Greg A. said: ShadowDragon said: Supwolli said: I am a paid DM, and if I had time to play in a game, my top three things I'd look for are: a) Consistent schedule and communication. b) DM is prepared for the session. c) DM knows the rules when it matters and can improvise consistently when it doesn't matter. Aside from that, run the game you want to run and I bet there are mature adults who will gladly pay for that opportunity, just like they pay for video games, Netflix streaming, and books. lmao That's a new one from paid GM Mature one's pay. Man you guys get bolder and bolder every time you defend yourself.  Just to be clear in your statement: Mature pay None Mature don't. Gotcha. Google translate not working, please help. Well well well, I wonder when a paid GM would come at me about grammar/spelling nazi.

****wondered

Greg A. said: ****wondered Good job. Want a cookie?

ShadowDragon, you seem really upset with what people decide to spend their money on privately. I don't see the difference between paying for custom artwork or clothes and paying for a customized world experience. Anyway, to answer the OP's question.  If I were to pay for a game I'd expect at the very least tokens for major NPCs, music, full maps (with dynamic lighting preferred) and a GM willing to work with my preferences for custom rules and flexible enough to cater to the sort of game I want. It's essentially commissioning someone to make an interactive story for me and/or my friends.

Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon, you seem really upset with what people decide to spend their money on privately. I don't see the difference between paying for custom artwork or clothes and paying for a customized world experience. Anyway, to answer the OP's question.  If I were to pay for a game I'd expect at the very least tokens for major NPCs, music, full maps (with dynamic lighting preferred) and a GM willing to work with my preferences for custom rules and flexible enough to cater to the sort of game I want. It's essentially commissioning someone to make an interactive story for me and/or my friends. Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. I myself have received about 100 mails in last 3 years of unsolicited mail from paid GM's sense this started. I have also posted in threads I started I am looking for free game but still paid GM's reply even though I have said no pay. Paid Game Guidelines Currently, paid games are allowed without prior approval from Roll20. Please note that Roll20 is not responsible for any payment transactions and cannot enforce any private arrangements. Below outline some additional requests for paid games that must be adhered to in order to maintain transparency for players (or GMs) looking to play in paid games. These requests apply to all forms of payment (per session, static, tips, variable price, etc.) All paid games using the LFG Tool must correctly mark their game as such via the checkbox All listings must provide a clear description of payment method, payment amount, and payment frequency Paid games on the Roll20 LFG Forums require a link to their respective LFG listing within the LFG tool All paid games posted to the Roll20 LFG Forums require a payment disclaimer within the original post (provided below) Do not attempt to solicit users-- through private message or a post in a seeker's thread-- if they have not explicitly stated an interest in your paid game

ShadowDragon said: Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. So the genuinely respectful and professional paid GMs who only advertise to the people specifically asking for paid GMs should be demonized because of the rule breakers? I can understand the frustration of getting hounded by unprofessional GMs, but I know several professional GMs who don't act like that at all and have wonderful relationships and campaigns with their clients that wouldn't otherwise be possible without the profession.

Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. So the genuinely respectful and professional paid GMs who only advertise to the people specifically asking for paid GMs should be demonized because of the rule breakers? I can understand the frustration of getting hounded by unprofessional GMs, but I know several professional GMs who don't act like that at all and have wonderful relationships and campaigns with their clients that wouldn't otherwise be possible without the profession. that's fine and dandy, but theirs a limit someone can take. I myself have received about 100 mails in last 3 years of unsolicited mail from paid GM's sense this started. I have also posted in threads I started I am looking for free game but still paid GM's reply even though I have said no pay. And people I have refused because of pay say shit like "good luck finding a game. you wont find any if you don't pay." So I am sorry if i am so negative to paid GM's but they kinda brought it on themselfs. 

ShadowDragon said: Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. So the genuinely respectful and professional paid GMs who only advertise to the people specifically asking for paid GMs should be demonized because of the rule breakers? I can understand the frustration of getting hounded by unprofessional GMs, but I know several professional GMs who don't act like that at all and have wonderful relationships and campaigns with their clients that wouldn't otherwise be possible without the profession. that's fine and dandy, but theirs a limit someone can take. I myself have received about 100 mails in last 3 years of unsolicited mail from paid GM's sense this started. I have also posted in threads I started I am looking for free game but still paid GM's reply even though I have said no pay. And people I have refused because of pay say shit like "good luck finding a game. you wont find any if you don't pay."  Then report them and move on instead of publicly damning an entire community.

Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. So the genuinely respectful and professional paid GMs who only advertise to the people specifically asking for paid GMs should be demonized because of the rule breakers? I can understand the frustration of getting hounded by unprofessional GMs, but I know several professional GMs who don't act like that at all and have wonderful relationships and campaigns with their clients that wouldn't otherwise be possible without the profession. that's fine and dandy, but theirs a limit someone can take. I myself have received about 100 mails in last 3 years of unsolicited mail from paid GM's sense this started. I have also posted in threads I started I am looking for free game but still paid GM's reply even though I have said no pay. And people I have refused because of pay say shit like "good luck finding a game. you wont find any if you don't pay."  Then report them and move on instead of publicly damning an entire community. Easier said than done, idk how  long you been here but to roll20 money is god. You pay for membership you can get away with most anything. One reason I pay for sub. So I can express myself without much worry of mod problems.

But ultimately ShadowDragon this guy just politely asked some simple questions and you've hijacked his thread for your agenda.   It's pretty weak.

Kor said: But ultimately ShadowDragon this guy just politely asked some simple questions and you've hijacked his thread for your agenda.   It's pretty weak. I give back thread then. No worries. I said my peace. I know wont change anything. Paid GM's will continue doing same. Even some of the paid GM's posted here I seen guilty of the crime. So continue, have fun be safe.

It's simple but maybe not so simple?  I wan't a DM who gives a damn about my fun.  I know those are few words but the ideas are big. Please address my backstory in the game. Show up like you care. Things like that. 

I have seen a few of these threads and I feel the wrong questions are being asked.  How do you register a company. How do you handle taxes How do you avoid infringing on copyright  Perhaps those who are experienced can answer some of these. 

The answers to all of those questions would differ depending on the country of residence of the DM.   The variations are such that it would be ridiculous to try and detail every jurisdiction in a post like this.   Best to not assume one country=the world.

Kor said: The answers to all of those questions would differ depending on the country of residence of the DM.   The variations are such that it would be ridiculous to try and detail every jurisdiction in a post like this.   Best to not assume one country=the world. ...alternatively the OP could tell which country they live in

Jens F. said: I have seen a few of these threads and I feel the wrong questions are being asked.  How do you register a company. How do you handle taxes How do you avoid infringing on copyright  Perhaps those who are experienced can answer some of these.  I just make stuff on my own. It takes time to create a plot, characters, maps and so on. They may not be as perfect as retail ones in the market (I mean maps and at least not yet, still learning and improving, but learning fast) but as someone stated earlier, they are an absolute must (light effects I would take as an standard). As regarding the story, this is probably the most vital part and if you are good at it, then damn you deserve your coin if someone is willing to pay you for your creation. When you go to the Theater and watch a movie, you pay for the ticket. When you go to the Festival and listen to a Band, you buy a ticket. When you want to sit in front of PC/console and play your fav game with friends/opponents online you pay for it. When you watch your fav streamer on Twitch or Youtube you send him tip to support his daily routines and make him be able to create more content that you enjoy. You pay people not for the same stuff others create, but for something new, that you personally enjoy. You won't get free entry on new "Avengers" or whatever movie you like to watch, you won't get for free your favorite pack of chips from the market shelf. I understand, that most of the people around here are using roll20 as meaning to have fun with their hobby for free and that's fine. Others, specially those more creative ones, want to make their creative content a way of living and supporting themselves. There is nothing wrong in that. I would even say that there is great number of positive outcomes from creative people professionalizing themselves and releasing more and more one-shots and later on complex campaigns for those willing to use them. Same like the rest I don't understand the rant that angry person committed on someone, who politely asked a question, most probably because his/her goal is to start being creative on new level. ShadowDragon seams to have a problem not with GMs getting paid for their games but himself/herself being unable to get what he/she wants (I will skip the part of the grammar, I'm not a native speaker myself) for free. Or perhaps he/she wants to get paid but can't create a stuff as good as most of paid GMs does. "Jealousy is a tool only fools are using" and the amount of anger and bitterness in words of that person convinces me that problem lies not in existence of paid games on roll20. Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Hime Takamura said: ShadowDragon said: Its not just paying. Most of these paid GM's act like a predators. Mass mailing people without consent. Posting over and over again. Bumping there thread when ever reach bottom of page. They have constantly broken the rules, or found loop wholes. This is guideline they are post to follow. Though how many have you seen break it? I see dozens a day. To them its about getting the players in to earn the cash now. So the genuinely respectful and professional paid GMs who only advertise to the people specifically asking for paid GMs should be demonized because of the rule breakers? I can understand the frustration of getting hounded by unprofessional GMs, but I know several professional GMs who don't act like that at all and have wonderful relationships and campaigns with their clients that wouldn't otherwise be possible without the profession. that's fine and dandy, but theirs a limit someone can take. I myself have received about 100 mails in last 3 years of unsolicited mail from paid GM's sense this started. I have also posted in threads I started I am looking for free game but still paid GM's reply even though I have said no pay. And people I have refused because of pay say shit like "good luck finding a game. you wont find any if you don't pay."  Then report them and move on instead of publicly damning an entire community. That is a very reasonable point and should close the rant instantly. If someone breaks the rules, you can report them and move on. Simple as that. I also like what Hime said regarding main question of this topic. GM in paid game should communicate with players and make sure to deliver experience that they expect to get. I failed on that part few times, mainly cause I was focused to deliver the story and creation that I wanted to present but sometimes people simply want something else. I think that there is very thin boundary between good paid game and bad and that boundary is communication before the actual game. From my own experience I can say that for 100% sitting with players and talking about their characters and goals is paramount. As paid DM (or should I rather say as good paid DM) you typically want to deliver high quality story in the first place. But that is not what players sometimes want. They may just want to roll the dice and move token over the map (in West March style, which in my opinion is a board game, not actually RPG) and you focusing on creating compelling story for those players will just waste your time. And theirs. Sometimes players won't tell you what they want but then blame is on them. So to make final conclusion for the author of this topic, I would say this: if you are planning to professionalize yourself and start creating content to make money, 100% do it but make sure that 1. You have a plan what to do and how, and 2. You are good with 2 of 3 important parts of DM job in RPG (1. Designing interesting plot, NPCs, monsters and reasons of actions both villains and positive characters, certainly also use loose ends in PCs' background story and stitch them into the plot of campaign, not in a style of: "Dwarf innkeeper asked you to go to the swamp and kill the troll and "bazyllion" of Goblins who are terrorizing frogs there, do you agree?" 2. Being ready to constantly create new maps, items, locations and characters to avoid routine which will kill both your creativity and fun int your creation. 3. Being at least decent in role playing, trying to change your voice when you speak as one of NPCs, change the manner of speech if possible, play with the tone of your voice etc. Use soundtrack and sound effects.). If you are missing 1 of those points, cover them spending money and finding stuff that you need online. If you are lacking 2, don't professionalize yourself, it won't work. Rather spend time to develop your skills and get experience to be able to provide service with quality that your clients will enjoy, instead damning you for it. This is advise from my own experience and my own failures in the past. So hopefully it will help you to make your steps right. Good luck and don't mind trolls!

Consider contacting local schools or others that organize after-school activities (churches, local youth clubs). I bet there are lots of places that want to provide good activities for the kids, that also can continue after the crisis is over. They might even pay more than you would get here or at least a more predictable income. It MIGHT also demand that you spend some time with the kids, listening to their life-stories, helping with the homework or just getting familiar with them. When I grew up, we had pupil assistants, that sometimes played Twilight 2000 as part of their job.

Jens F. said: Kor said: The answers to all of those questions would differ depending on the country of residence of the DM.   The variations are such that it would be ridiculous to try and detail every jurisdiction in a post like this.   Best to not assume one country=the world. ...alternatively the OP could tell which country they live in Yeah but none of those questions have anything to do with what the OP asked. Those questions are for people who are setting up a business as a paid GM, to ask themselves. The OP was asking what players  want from a paid game.

As a player, I would expect two things: - Some framework for the group to re-schedule on the fly (doodle, google calendar or something) when murphy unerringly strikes, and the GM actively working to detemine if everyone can join. "If you cannot be there you can join up the next time we play" does not hold if I'm paying for it. - Once everyone has submitted their background, I would expect the adventure to be personalized for each of us. e.g.: Someone from the old village of the PC asking him for help, or providing help if the group is stuck. Loot in line with how we play our character (wow, this +3 rapier really is nice, pity my bard has not drawn steel once in the whole adventure). There's a third thing, but this is more on the lines of casting than service offered: A nice voice. I get it: you cannot change your own voice. Still if I have to choose I would prefer someone with a nice voice and average capabilities than the other way around.

ShadowDragon said: Supwolli said: I am a paid DM, and if I had time to play in a game, my top three things I'd look for are: a) Consistent schedule and communication. b) DM is prepared for the session. c) DM knows the rules when it matters and can improvise consistently when it doesn't matter. Aside from that, run the game you want to run and I bet there are mature adults who will gladly pay for that opportunity, just like they pay for video games, Netflix streaming, and books. lmao That's a new one from paid GM Mature one's pay. Man you guys get bolder and bolder every time you defend yourself.  Just to be clear in your statement: Mature pay None Mature don't. Gotcha. Just for the sake of clarity, there are more definitions for the word "mature."  I was referring to people who are established in life, know what they want, and go get it if it's in their means. You've fallen into a logical trap in which one thing being true must mean the opposite is false.  That is not the case here or, really,  very often anywhere.

Yazof said: What makes you say I'd play that for 5$. I'm sorry your question got derailed by an idiot. I'll answer it from my own preferences.  1) Consistency : games online have such a high cancellation rate, not to mention a ridiculous drop out rate. If I pay for a session, I want the guarantee that the campaign will go on at least 10 sessions or so with 90% of the players there.  2) A DM that match my preference : some people love grinding a dungeon for five 4-hour sessions, where it's all about finding the next place to rest and kicking some monster's ass in between. I prefer roleplay, problem solving, people who do voices (even terrible ones... no, especially terrible ones). So I look for a DM that cast and narrow tighty-knitted net, rather than a wide grab-anything-I-can type.  3) attention to details : a DM that picked just the right track-list, has interesting NPC personalities, and build a cohesive world is well-worth my money. For free, I'll take the generic : "ok, this is a town. It has the normal town stuff. What do you need? ok, you bought a sword." But I rather take a dm that can carve personality into the fabric of things. This is a question of preference, but I quite enjoy the longer DM narrative à la Matt Mercer. Things like : "As the beated trail turns to a cobble-stone path, you hear the merry giggles of children, entertained by street acts. You have walked into Grandstand, a little village known for producing some of the most wonderous circus performance across the land. Here, the blacksmith specializes in precision. Throwing knives and crossbow are expensive, but deathly accurate (+1 to hit)." 4) If i can get a little character arc in, all the better. There's something deeply unsatisfactory about playing a game, killing the big bad, concluding everything, and then just thinking "well, that didnt bring me any closer to my personal goal of acquiring the rare herb that can restore my daughter's memory," or whatever my bond was on my character sheet. 

Oy vey, if you don't want to pay to play then don't. Not everyone is you, in your situation. You whine "I wouldn't pay for a hobby"... hello? There's not a hobby that people don't put money into. I pay if I want to go to the gym, go swimming, take karate lessons, watch a play, watch a movie in a theatre, own a book, own a video game, rent a movie, video, own some music, have a pet, smoke some fine tobacco, drink some magnificent wine, chug some bubbly ale... watch Netflix... have any collections... gardening... knitting... owning a musical instrument, getting lessons, learning a language... there's not a thing I can think of that I've ever done, that anyone I've ever known has done for their hobby, that is 100% free all of the time for all aspects. Storytelling is something that yes, you can do for free with your friends! It's excitingly unique in that regards. You can and if you can you SHOULD play for free with your friends! Not everyone has that group of friends. Not everyone is you, ShadowDragon. You have your reasons, you have shared them, now back off and stop trying to force them into other people's consciousnesses. If they agree with you, they do for their reasons and that's fine. But there are also people who disagree, who do want to either charge or pay to play. All of my groups have fallen apart quite fast. I'd pay because I want to complete the module with the same party of committed players and putting in money means we're investing into crafting a higher quality campaign. That doesn't mean a non-paid campaign would be necessarily lower quality, but in my experience the free games I've played have had characters drop out quite a lot, and GMs who have difficulties and then the game dies. A paid DM is committed to seeing the game through... it's their job. I would also pay to play because I just want to do a fun one shot and I want it NOW and someone's charging to run a game NOW. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I am a mature adult. That does not mean wise adult, it just means that I have an established foothold in the world and with it, at least some anticipated income with which I can spend on disposable things. If I decide to invest $15 into a game session, that's on par with what I spend for a meal or a movie, and it is a reasonable expense I could do a couple times a month. I just spent $25 on sushi, so, why not spend less than that on average on allowing a GM to buy more resources? After all, I create paid resources, both in the marketplace here and in my own website where I take commissions for maps... which often go to DMs. If I expect to be respected as a professional I extend the same to them. I get the feeling that you're like... 16-20. Money is tight. You have no idea where it will come from in the future. You just want to play the damn game, and it's just making up things with your friends in your heads, so why should money ever come into the equation? And indeed, there are alternative ways of acquiring all of the resources you might want, apart from minis and fancy 3D dungeon gear, for free. If you hate the paid GMs, block them. If you're jealous of them, try dropping a $5 price tag on your next game, run a one-shot or something, and see if you can't scrape up $30 from it, and maybe you'll start to understand the other side of the equation, and have the money to pay a GM for that paid game you lust after but cannot afford. If you're just hella broke, why not join me and become a marketplace creator and sell a few asset packs? I certainly make enough from my Roll20 store that with that money alone, I could pay a GM for a weekly game. I also could trade, I know at least one paid GM who's willing to trade my skills for gametime. Yes, some GMs are annoying about their hustle. I'm sure we'll all agree there. But some people want to pay... I'd pay, if a one shot game pops up when I want to play. And if I ran a game, I'd run it free for my IRL friends, but I'd charge for random internet strangers... only after getting my skills up on my IRL friends (of whom I have like... 6-7 who want to play, so I got a party made if I start running it!)

Tiffany M. said: Not everyone is you, ShadowDragon. You have your reasons, you have shared them, now back off  I did back off.   1:04AM (8 hours ago) "I give back thread then. No worries. I said my peace. I know wont change anything. Paid GM's will continue doing same. Even some of the paid GM's posted here I seen guilty of the crime. So continue, have fun be safe." I do want point and and still going on. Instead off any true reason to defend there art of paid GM's like @Kor, @the dungeon master, @greg and others choose to make personal attacks. Only one had a reasonable defense for paid DM's was @hime saying Yes there are plenty of bad paid GM's but there are plenty of good paid GM's also that treat it professionally.  And people are still choosing to attack me long after the debate happened. I state reasons and facts. Anyone with two eyes can see my example by going through first 6 pages of lfg forum posts. So go ahead If you feel the need to continue to make personal attacks, I still love you all. :)