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Nov 10 Page and Token settings Update

1605086020
Wint
Plus
The Nov 10th update included "accessibility updates" for Page & Token settings. For the most part, they're fine. However, I find the changes to token settings in regards to these little buttons (shown here) to be extremely infuriating. It's simply unwanted and bad U/X design. I now have to go through an extra little step, for every single token , simply to click this hidden little button to allow my players to see basic information that was much easier to access before. It would be an incredibly simply change the player permissions to an easily accessible list as it was before this update (as seen here). If that's not in the cards, simply making these player permission options not hidden behind another button that does nothing but add an extra step to my workflow would also be acceptable. Please roll back & fix.
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Edited 1605096220
Those little buttons are not a step forward. It's not only requires extra clicks when changing the settings, but as a GM one of the most stressing tasks is to check correctness of the tokens while all players are waiting. This used to be possible with a single glance. Now it requires parcouring the mouse across the whole menu.&nbsp;See for yourself in&nbsp; <a href="https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI</a> &nbsp;. It's not intiuitive and the behaviour differs based on the direction (top-down vs bottom-up). And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes on tokens used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes.
1605108072
While I agree to the UX topic, I personally love GM notes in tokens. I use them for minor NPCs in my homebrew campaigns, when a specific handout for the NPC isn't necessary, but a little note that I can access with a quick click on the token is just what I need.
Yep, the new interface is horrible.&nbsp; I like that the bar permissions are now actually next to the bars, but the little pop-out window is completely unnecessary.&nbsp; Can you please change it so that the bar settings are under each bar? Also the tooltip for "Attribute" is wrong.&nbsp; It shows the tooltip for "Represents Character" instead.
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Edited 1605116782
Andreas J.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
Translator
Doesn't seem like the documentation is updated yet(but it's probably coming soon): <a href="https://roll20.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039675373-Page-Settings#PageSettings-Pages" rel="nofollow">https://roll20.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039675373-Page-Settings#PageSettings-Pages</a> <a href="https://roll20.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039674573-Token-Features" rel="nofollow">https://roll20.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039674573-Token-Features</a> Martijn S. said: And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes on tokens used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes. IMO giving it a separate tab absolutly makes sense, rather than having it at the bottom of the details page.
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Edited 1605111764
It's nice to know the developers completely ignored the comments about the extra button click when this was pushed to the dev server. The same comments were posted there.&nbsp; :-/ Though I do agree have the GM notes there is a nice addition.
1605115365
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
ᐰndreas J. &nbsp;said: Martijn S. &nbsp;said: And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes&nbsp; on tokens &nbsp;used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes. IMO giving it a separate tab absolutly makes sense, rather than having it at the bottom of the details page. I do hope that it becomes possible to make the tab choice persistent. Some tokens are note tokens, and some are character tokens, at least in my workflow.
1605116070

Edited 1605116086
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Craig said: It's nice to know the developers completely ignored the comments about the extra button click when this was pushed to the dev server. The same comments were posted there.&nbsp; :-/ Asking for feedback doesn't mean it has to be accepted. But if there is a reason it has to be this way, please communicate why. Until then, I have to agree with Craig. If suggestions are not or cannot be implemented, it would be polite to communicate why. You asked for feedback. We ask for the same. In the meantime, I am in total agreement about this. Hiding simple set up options in drop down menus is clunky, slow and keeps GMs from quickly reading the state of the token. It makes sense for long lists like "Represents", but it is pointless to have for checkboxes. To show the needless complexity of this, look at the token bar dropdown menu. It has a sub-dropdown of its own!&nbsp; A drop down should communicate info: Represents, Token bar text overlay, bar location. These tell you info even if they are not open. To hide categories of options and controls in a drop down, particularly when they are important for troubleshooting, is detrimental to the usefulness of the interface.
A global setting to show hide NPC token status would be great. Updated documentation that coincides with update releases would be even better. It wasn't until I found this dumpster fire did I find out how new UI works.
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Edited 1605130072
Again this is another update that I haven't seen anywhere requested in the suggestions forum, yet plenty of great ideas that have hundreds of votes and thousands of views are being ignored????&nbsp; As Keith said - communication and feedback is key. I noticed Roll20 are seeking a marketing person to look at ways of keeping customers......why....you have all the answers you need for free in these forums.&nbsp; If you make a good product, users will do the marketing for you, rather then constantly suggesting competitors.
Reposting my comments from the Pro thread when this was on the Dev Server: I also dislike the hidden options. I would suggest splitting the Details tab over two tabs, Details and Bars &amp; Auras . I made some quick mockups that show you can bring out a lot or all of the hidden options: Details Tab Suggestion: And there's lots of room for future token "details" features to be added. Bars &amp; Auras Tab Suggestion: You could even make the bar colors link to color pickers here so players can choose the bar colors they see if they have any visual accommodations needed. Even if you dislike my suggestion, I would still divide Token Bars and Token Auras into columns on the Details tab so you can see both section titles without having to scroll down. Token Auras are more hidden in the layout on Dev and could be missed.
Echoing my dislike of the unnecessary drop-down menus. But this is typical Roll20 practice. Develop a feature no one asked for, while key features that we ARE asking for are ignored. Then ignore the very user input you solicited from us on the dev server. Your dev and customer service processes are both gong shows.
1605172373
Martijn S. said: Those little buttons are not a step forward. It's not only requires extra clicks when changing the settings, but as a GM one of the most stressing tasks is to check correctness of the tokens while all players are waiting. This used to be possible with a single glance. Now it requires parcouring the mouse across the whole menu.&nbsp;See for yourself in&nbsp; <a href="https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI</a> &nbsp;. It's not intiuitive and the behaviour differs based on the direction (top-down vs bottom-up). And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes on tokens used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes. I usually put custom stats and links to external stat blocks in the gmnotes. I much prefer the old layout when gmnotes was in the same tab as the rest of the most-used information. So even for people who actually use gmnotes this constant tabbing breaks the flow and feels really unnecessary (especially if all gmnotes contains is a single website link).
1605178608
Gold
Forum Champion
When Roll20 asked the Pro forum for feedback on Dev Server beta version of this, by-far the salient repeated feedback from multiple Pro subscribers was to unhide those buttons.&nbsp; Didn't see any response, and it now seems like that feedback was either overlooked, ignored, tabled, or rejected without reply.
keithcurtis said: ᐰndreas J. &nbsp;said: Martijn S. &nbsp;said: And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes&nbsp; on tokens &nbsp;used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes. IMO giving it a separate tab absolutly makes sense, rather than having it at the bottom of the details page. I do hope that it becomes possible to make the tab choice persistent. Some tokens are note tokens, and some are character tokens, at least in my workflow. If you use the word workflow... are you talking about a GM workflow or about a marketplace creator workflow?&nbsp; For me as GM tokens and maps are objects that get deleted to make space when a game starts too feel sluggish. I transmogrify a lot - even during sessios if required. The journal contains the long term information.
Marcus W. said: Martijn S. said: Those little buttons are not a step forward. It's not only requires extra clicks when changing the settings, but as a GM one of the most stressing tasks is to check correctness of the tokens while all players are waiting. This used to be possible with a single glance. Now it requires parcouring the mouse across the whole menu.&nbsp;See for yourself in&nbsp; <a href="https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/NSemA_AnyDI</a> &nbsp;. It's not intiuitive and the behaviour differs based on the direction (top-down vs bottom-up). And why is a full tab added for gmnotes? For what are the gmnotes on tokens used?&nbsp; I did a quick counting. Of the 1156 tokens in the Explorers Guide to Wildemount product, exactly 1156 of the gmnotes are not used. Of the 2627 tokens in Curse of Strahd, none of the tokens use gmnotes. I usually put custom stats and links to external stat blocks in the gmnotes. I much prefer the old layout when gmnotes was in the same tab as the rest of the most-used information. So even for people who actually use gmnotes this constant tabbing breaks the flow and feels really unnecessary (especially if all gmnotes contains is a single website link). This implies you will probably not (or hardly) use the roll20 character sheets. With external statblocks you refer to DND beyond? How do you automate rolls?
1605237942
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Martijn S. said: keithcurtis said: I do hope that it becomes possible to make the tab choice persistent. Some tokens are note tokens, and some are character tokens, at least in my workflow. If you use the word workflow... are you talking about a GM workflow or about a marketplace creator workflow?&nbsp; In this case, my personal gm habits. I use token notes a lot .&nbsp;
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Edited 1605307482
Gold
Forum Champion
keithcurtis said: In this case, my personal gm habits. I use token notes a lot .&nbsp; I have plans &amp; desires to use Token Notes (GM Notes section), a lot more myself. It's not been a major spot for me partly because the text box seemed very small at the bottom of the token-settings panel, but now I am hopeful that this will save me a lot of time &amp; creating fewer Token-Linked Character Sheets for NPC and commoners. I'm hoping to use Just the Token, no Char sheet in Journals, for a larger percentage, thus saving a lot of load (lag has been attributed to Character Sheets with large number of fields x multiplied by having large quantity of those sheets in a game under Journals tab). I don't mind going click a Tab to get to the Token GM Notes, however I am bugged about the extra pop-up for Player Permissions that Wint started this thread about.&nbsp; Those checkbox settings are used so frequently (as a GM doing prep) and even sometimes toggled mid-gameplay, there should not be an extra step to see the checkboxes.
1605310118
Pat
Pro
API Scripter
It seems like somebody was trying to do a "clean" design when this is essentially an ergonomics question. The learning curve and clutter is not the problem - the problem is efficiency. It may "look" cleaner to hide all of that detail on a token - but there are ways to handle information clutter without causing additional clicks and steps on what is an expert application (an application used and encountered more than once). There is more learning on an expert application. There is also more efficiency once it's learned.&nbsp;
1605311115
Elizabeth W.
Roll20 Team
&nbsp; Hey Everyone, Our team previously had a conversation over, and is continuing to discuss the feedback we’ve received from all of you - but you’re all correct in that it is important that we share our views and the thoughts we’ve had as a result. We discussed multiple ways to approach this redesign. There was a consideration to have the option for all the elements visible without scrolling but this would lead to creating new tabs which further breaks up the UI. Part of the purpose of the design, that was put on the Dev server, was to bring settings together and relinquish division of the “advanced” settings. Today we had a meeting to revisit this topic amongst the team which we’ve acknowledged that there are distinct drawbacks to the current iteration - focusing around the hidden settings: Unable to see the settings at a glance Having to hover to the side to access the settings of the bar below There is a drop down within a hover menu (further obfuscation) The setting does not appear immediately identifiable We do feel that this implementation is a cleaner and less overwhelming view as compared to the old settings which is what we’re working to achieve. The takeaway we want to give is that we have been listening to your feedback, are going to iterate further, and satisfy your concerns while aiming for our goal. In addition, the communication could have been improved, and is something that the team is still trying to work on. - Elizabeth
1605321952

Edited 1605321961
Wint
Plus
So... what are you doing to actually resolve this issue? Because that's a whole lot of talking without a real response. "Iterate further" doesn't actually say much. Unlike the other thread on this topic (and I would suggest you do as some have suggested and merge them), this thread has suggestions for how to resolve the issue, and links to even more threads discussing things. Should we expect the buttons to be unhidden in a future update, should we expect a rollback until you can iterate further? what's the ETA? You talk about improving communication but than don't actually do so. I don't mean this in any way to be disrespectful but honestly this is unacceptable for a paid service.
1606114553
Wint
Plus
This issue continues to persist. There is noticeable lag when accessing token settings, which causes the entire VTT to freeze out. I'm not talking 1 or 2 seconds, we're talking about half a minute or more of complete lock out as the whole platform freezes up. This literally breaks the platform for me as a GM.
1606118603
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
I haven't experienced any lag. Does it occur upon opening the interface, or upon trying to enter a value? If the latter, there is a known problem with the Autofill and Autocomplete settings (primarily with Firefox) that can cause significant lag at that point. Beyond that, I suggest testing with extensions disabled (easy enough by loading the game in a private browsing window).
1606152453
Wint
Plus
keithcurtis said: If the latter, there is a known problem with the Autofill and Autocomplete settings (primarily with Firefox) that can cause significant lag at that point. It's the latter. Keith, can you point me toward a thread or feedback page about that?
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
I don't know if there is an official page for it. It's been true for years and years and is brought up often in the forums.
1606159877
Gold
Forum Champion
keithcurtis said: I don't know if there is an official page for it. It's been true for years and years and is brought up often in the forums. Generally agreed, it did get much worse at some point a year ago or so when Firefox changed/added to their Autocomplete feature. Keith's right, it's a Firefox setting, that you can just try turning it off &amp; load Roll20 &amp; see if that fix the problem. If it doesn't fix, or if you decide to not use Firefox, or if you need Autocomplete/Autofill, you can always turn it back on in your Firefox settings.
Or create a special Firefox profile with Autofill and Autocomplete turned off to use Roll20.
1606178892
Wint
Plus
I've been using firefox with roll20 for half a decade and this is literally the first time I've encountered (or heard of) this issue.
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Edited 1606194258
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Ok. I assure you it comes up fairly often, though. Try this search in google; it should turn up plenty of hits. site:roll20.net/forum "firefox" "autofill" "autocomplete" A lot of the hits are mine, but I post a lot of troubleshooting. :)
1606194738
vÍnce
Pro
Sheet Author
Steve K. (Lead Developer) mentioned some changes to roll20 (2+ years ago) to help combat this. <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/permalink/6065741/" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/permalink/6065741/</a> After Firefox's 58 update, the version following the large Quantum update that had so many positive performance related effects on Roll20 users, we got a large number of complaints from Pathfinder and 5E Shaped sheet users. Firefox had made a change to how their predictive text and autofill functions work. This is a normally useful feature for completing forms where the browser remembers your address so you don't need to type it in over and over again. Unfortunately it was having a very bad reaction to those two sheets in particular because they have thousands and thousands of fields, causing the entire window to seize up as it tried to be unhelpfully helpful. We were able to diagnose the issue and put in a fix on our end to prevent that functionality on character sheets. While Roll20 sheets will no longer remember that you like to play Elf Rangers, it will hopefully improve initial loading speed across the board, especially for users who were also having problems with 3rd party software like LastPass. Steve K. Roll20 Lead Developer But I think the issue still crops up from time to time given browser and/or roll20 updates, for some reason.
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Yeah, I've had enough people respond that it fixes that particular lag issue that I still recommend it as something to try.