5e DMG Is An Underwhelming Mess for $40

So I excitedly purchased the 5e DMG (because they had 6 years to develop this major piece of the 5e D&D game) expecting rollable tables and content galore. Lo and behold, we get random magic item tables and madness (which... I've never used)... and that's pretty much it for rollable tables. What a letdown! The fact that 5e DMs still cannot randomly generate treasure, encounters, or use pretty much most of the useful tables in the DMG entirely within Roll20's API is utterly laughable. Yo, you're charging people $39.99 for access to this content IN Roll20 and that content is horribly incomplete. We all bought the physical book 6 years ago, we don't need general web access to tables we already have physical copies of. Take my advice if you're a 5e DM considering purchasing the DMG... just don't.

+1

Sadly, I expected this, more or less. The Roll20 line, for years, was that they wanted to do the DMG right, in an exciting way, and not just offer the book in online form. After six years, they offer ... the book in online form. I already own a hardcover DMG. The only reason I'd consider purchasing Roll20's DMG is if it actually adds value. And a few magic item rollable tables -- that I could make myself if I took a few hours -- does not add value. It would have been really cool to be able to add treasure, or encounters, or roll from multiple characteristics tables to generate one- or two-line NPCs, or towns, or any of those valuable parts of the DMG.  The urge to switch to VTT Foundry is getting stronger.

Shocker

Here is another thread has a list from The Aaron of the actual Contents that you get in this: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9563181/few-questions-about-dungeon-masters-guide" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9563181/few-questions-about-dungeon-masters-guide</a> &nbsp;

Learned my lesson after Tasha's. Not worth the markup sadly.

My players gifted me this, I don't want my money back (the main thing my players care about is dragging and dropping items into their character sheet). I would like an answer to the question, "When can we expect the rest of the DMG content to be incorporated into the API?" I don't really want to wait another 6 years for it. Professional video games with full production cost around $40-$60 and take hundreds to thousands of man hours. This $40 got my players what exactly? Some entries in a back-end table, some copy\pasted graphics, and one person entering in rollable tables for maybe a day or two? Granted, that's not to say I don't appreciate the workers who put the work in and all those table entries must have taken a ton of time. However, I question the motives of the people in charge who felt compelled to release such an incomplete product for such a premium price.

Joel Wizard said: My players gifted me this, I don't want my money back (the main thing my players care about is dragging and dropping items into their character sheet). I would like an answer to the question, "When can we expect the rest of the DMG content to be incorporated into the API?" I don't really want to wait another 6 years for it. And even if the answer to your question is "soon," it is absolutely unethical to release a product into the marketplace charging full price for what is at best an Alpha.&nbsp;

Jay R. said: And even if the answer to your question is "soon," it is absolutely unethical to release a product into the marketplace charging full price for what is at best an Alpha.&nbsp; I agree - but going on past history, did anyone seriously expect anything else??

Marcel said: Jay R. said: And even if the answer to your question is "soon," it is absolutely unethical to release a product into the marketplace charging full price for what is at best an Alpha.&nbsp; I agree - but going on past history, did anyone seriously expect anything else?? No, and that's why I didn't buy the DMG. I looked very carefully at the product description and saw nothing that justified shelling out $40.

+1

I appreciate this info - I normally buy most of these books as soon as they are available but after how Tasha's was marketed and then what we actually received I was hesitant to buy the DMG.&nbsp; Will hold off for now. -Adam

I dont feel like the price is the most upsetting issue, I feel like its the delay.&nbsp; The product as is seems like it should have been released when they released the PHB, which was what, 4 years ago? Why wait until now to release what is almost just a facsimile of the book?

I am a little baffled how it completely omits some rollable tables when that is seemingly one of the most well-received functions of this platform and they had the chance to establish recursive rollable tables in a product. Definitely holding off on purchasing, especially after being a little burned by Tasha's.

So, what is the right and exciting way they created this product? It looks like what we have is something they could have implemented quite a number of years ago.

Jordan C. said: I am a little baffled how it completely omits some rollable tables when that is seemingly one of the most well-received functions of this platform and they had the chance to establish recursive rollable tables in a product. Definitely holding off on purchasing, especially after being a little burned by Tasha's. Yeah, if the DMG had come with the option to use rollable tables to build an NPC from scratch *in the game* -- like click a button to produce random characteristics, name, trait, bond, etc. -- I'd have been all over that like white on rice. Or being able to create random settlements, wilderness encounters, and treasure parcels with the click of a button. But what we got is essentially the physical book in online form, with a few maps. That this took six years to produce is laughable.

My guess is that at the time, they were waiting for some specific technologies that for one reason or another (avoidable or unavoidable) never appeared. Rather than continue to wait, they produced the book according to the standards already in place. There is nothing wrong with the implementation. It's not faulty. It's just not special or different from anything else. If it's "underwhelming", that due to expectations*. It is not a "mess". It's just another sourcebook. *Expectations fueled by posts made over a year and more ago that most users are likely unaware of, admittedly.

keithcurtis said: My guess is that at the time, they were waiting for some specific technologies that for one reason or another (avoidable or unavoidable) never appeared. Rather than continue to wait, they produced the book according to the standards already in place. There is nothing wrong with the implementation. It's not faulty. It's just not special or different from anything else. If it's "underwhelming", that due to expectations*. It is not a "mess". It's just another sourcebook. *Expectations fueled by posts made over a year and more ago that most users are likely unaware of, admittedly. Expectations are not developed in a vacuum. They are the direct result of promises Roll20 made, combined with the baffling absence of this core product in the Roll20 marketplace for six years . At this point in 5E's lifecycle, you already have the DMG in some other form (physical or D&amp;D Beyond). You don't need an online version of it (at $40 no less). And given that Roll20 provided no indication that any access to technology was hampering this project, how could customers have reacted, except by expressing their disappointment?&nbsp; Underpromising and overdelivering is one thing. Overpromising and underdelivering is really not a good business strategy.

keithcurtis said: My guess is that at the time, they were waiting for some specific technologies that for one reason or another (avoidable or unavoidable) never appeared. Rather than continue to wait, they produced the book according to the standards already in place. There is nothing wrong with the implementation. It's not faulty. It's just not special or different from anything else. If it's "underwhelming", that due to expectations*. It is not a "mess". It's just another sourcebook. *Expectations fueled by posts made over a year and more ago that most users are likely unaware of, admittedly. From the press release: "It’s packed with world-building tools, tips for crafting dungeons and adventures, optional new rules, hundreds of classic magic items, tables to help you create dungeons, scenarios, traps, NPCs, and so much more.&nbsp; You’ll also find descriptions of the many worlds and planes that make up the D&amp;D multiverse!&nbsp; With the Dungeon Master’s Guide in your Compendium, you’ll be ready to build your own worlds and tell your own tales, right on the virtual tabletop. " [underline for emphasis mine] To be clear to anyone thinking of purchasing this product: you cannot use the tables in the DMG "right on the virtual tabletop" (in Roll20's API) to generate worlds, cities, NPCs, encounters, or treasure (other than random magic items) to tell your tales with. You get access to a webpage that has the tables on them (much like owning a physical copy of the book or searching Google for them).

I was hoping to get access to the oathbreaker subclass but seems like a lot of money for it. I guess I'll wait until people see some better updates to it for 40.00

I looked forward to buying the DMG on Roll20 as a little Xmas present to myself. But this level of implementation doesn't appear worth the price. Roll20 *might* push for more integration of game material similar to how they are trying to make-up for the Tasha's mess. So it feels like a good idea to wait and see if the DMG becomes a better value (months? years?) down the road.

Jay R. said: The urge to switch to VTT Foundry is getting stronger. I am curious, why do you think WotC would make extra special efforts on another platform? Creators are responsible for their own content and how well it utilizes any special features that the platform may have available.

You can choose the oathbreaker subclass with the charactermancer but the oathbreaker spells are not included in the list of available spells. Bracus said: I was hoping to get access to the oathbreaker subclass but seems like a lot of money for it. I guess I'll wait until people see some better updates to it for 40.00

Mark S. said: Jay R. said: The urge to switch to VTT Foundry is getting stronger. I am curious, why do you think WotC would make extra special efforts on another platform? Creators are responsible for their own content and how well it utilizes any special features that the platform may have available. Uh, this is a weird question. WotC have nothing to do with how Roll20 chooses to develop the DMG on their own platform.&nbsp; I don't expect WotC to be involved at all. My gripes aren't with them. I like the DMG as a sourcebook (I've owned it for a number of years). My issue is with how Roll20 has (or has not, let's be honest) chosen to develop the DMG on their own platform. If you already own the DMG, there is very little reason to buy Roll29's version at $40. For example, I enjoy the Player's Handbook on D&amp;D Beyond. It's much more user-friendly and searchable than the mess that is the PH on Roll20. This is on Roll20, squarely.&nbsp; If I switch to VTT Foundry, it will be because I want access to technology and features that Roll20 seems absolutely incapable of delivering, and without the constant gaslighting that has become a trademark of Roll20. Got a bug? Don't worry, it's really a feature! And so forth.

Jay R. said: The urge to switch to VTT Foundry is getting stronger. Uh, this is a weird question. WotC have nothing to do with how Roll20 chooses to develop the DMG on their own platform.&nbsp; I don't expect WotC to be involved at all. My gripes aren't with them. I like the DMG as a sourcebook (I've owned it for a number of years). My issue is with how Roll20 has (or has not, let's be honest) chosen to develop the DMG on their own platform. If you already own the DMG, there is very little reason to buy Roll29's version at $40. For example, I enjoy the Player's Handbook on D&amp;D Beyond. It's much more user-friendly and searchable than the mess that is the PH on Roll20. This is on Roll20, squarely.&nbsp; If I switch to VTT Foundry, it will be because I want access to technology and features that Roll20 seems absolutely incapable of delivering, and without the constant gaslighting that has become a trademark of Roll20. Got a bug? Don't worry, it's really a feature! And so forth. I really tried to like Roll20 - I have been here for over a year.... but..... I ran my first game to Foundry on the weekend and then cancelled my membership straight after (I hung onto it just in case).&nbsp; It was soooo nice in comparison - such a breath of fresh air.&nbsp; I had my players ooohhing, ahhhhhing and laughing all night.&nbsp; Lighting that works, sound that works that get blocked by walls No longer waiting to see if something is broken by some random update with no warning (ie token or lighting mods), or logging in on Tuesday to hopefully see that something was 'fixed' only to find that no feedback was listened to again. the list goes on...

Jay R. said: Uh, this is a weird question. WotC have nothing to do with how Roll20 chooses to develop the DMG on their own platform.&nbsp; I don't expect WotC to be involved at all. My gripes aren't with them. I like the DMG as a sourcebook (I've owned it for a number of years). My issue is with how Roll20 has (or has not, let's be honest) chosen to develop the DMG on their own platform. If you already own the DMG, there is very little reason to buy Roll29's version at $40. For example, I enjoy the Player's Handbook on D&amp;D Beyond. It's much more user-friendly and searchable than the mess that is the PH on Roll20. This is on Roll20, squarely.&nbsp; If I switch to VTT Foundry, it will be because I want access to technology and features that Roll20 seems absolutely incapable of delivering, and without the constant gaslighting that has become a trademark of Roll20. Got a bug? Don't worry, it's really a feature! And so forth. I wasn't aware of any special rights Roll20 has on any WotC products. The owners or a representative of the company, have to set it up on the platform. When it is complete, they submit it to Roll20 for release. Roll20 neither creates nor owns copyrighted products and only gets a small percentage of the sales.&nbsp; At least that was my understanding and is the arrangement Roll20 has with all content creators. Roll20 does enforce a level of quality control but does not force creators to use specific features. Was there some special arrangement announced for the creation of the DMG? This is where my confusion lies. I am genuinely trying to figure out if I missed something. &nbsp;

Mark S. said: Jay R. said: Uh, this is a weird question. WotC have nothing to do with how Roll20 chooses to develop the DMG on their own platform.&nbsp; I don't expect WotC to be involved at all. My gripes aren't with them. I like the DMG as a sourcebook (I've owned it for a number of years). My issue is with how Roll20 has (or has not, let's be honest) chosen to develop the DMG on their own platform. If you already own the DMG, there is very little reason to buy Roll29's version at $40. For example, I enjoy the Player's Handbook on D&amp;D Beyond. It's much more user-friendly and searchable than the mess that is the PH on Roll20. This is on Roll20, squarely.&nbsp; If I switch to VTT Foundry, it will be because I want access to technology and features that Roll20 seems absolutely incapable of delivering, and without the constant gaslighting that has become a trademark of Roll20. Got a bug? Don't worry, it's really a feature! And so forth. I wasn't aware of any special rights Roll20 has on any WotC products. The owners or a representative of the company, have to set it up on the platform. When it is complete, they submit it to Roll20 for release. Roll20 neither creates nor owns copyrighted products and only gets a small percentage of the sales.&nbsp; At least that was my understanding and is the arrangement Roll20 has with all content creators. Roll20 does enforce a level of quality control but does not force creators to use specific features. Was there some special arrangement announced for the creation of the DMG? This is where my confusion lies. I am genuinely trying to figure out if I missed something. The process varies between licensors. WotC releases licensed content to Roll20, FG and D&amp;DB for them to convert. This is how you would want it done. WotC has neither the time nor inclination to train teams of employees to do the conversion work on three different systems. Some other companies do want to have that level of control. (D&amp;DB may have a slightly different working relationship with WotC, since they are much more tightly interwoven.) At this point in time, Foundry licenses nothing from WotC. Any content beyond the base SRD must come from another source.

Marcel said: Jay R. said: The urge to switch to VTT Foundry is getting stronger. Uh, this is a weird question. WotC have nothing to do with how Roll20 chooses to develop the DMG on their own platform.&nbsp; I don't expect WotC to be involved at all. My gripes aren't with them. I like the DMG as a sourcebook (I've owned it for a number of years). My issue is with how Roll20 has (or has not, let's be honest) chosen to develop the DMG on their own platform. If you already own the DMG, there is very little reason to buy Roll29's version at $40. For example, I enjoy the Player's Handbook on D&amp;D Beyond. It's much more user-friendly and searchable than the mess that is the PH on Roll20. This is on Roll20, squarely.&nbsp; If I switch to VTT Foundry, it will be because I want access to technology and features that Roll20 seems absolutely incapable of delivering, and without the constant gaslighting that has become a trademark of Roll20. Got a bug? Don't worry, it's really a feature! And so forth. I really tried to like Roll20 - I have been here for over a year.... but..... I ran my first game to Foundry on the weekend and then cancelled my membership straight after (I hung onto it just in case).&nbsp; It was soooo nice in comparison - such a breath of fresh air.&nbsp; I had my players ooohhing, ahhhhhing and laughing all night.&nbsp; Lighting that works, sound that works that get blocked by walls No longer waiting to see if something is broken by some random update with no warning (ie token or lighting mods), or logging in on Tuesday to hopefully see that something was 'fixed' only to find that no feedback was listened to again. the list goes on... Until Foundry VTT gets license agreement with WOTC, I just can't forgo the convenience that affords me.&nbsp; But, Foundry's UX/UI seems definitely step above Roll20's.

Another +1 for Foundry here.&nbsp; I cancelled my Roll20 subscription yesterday.

Mark, yes, you're missing Licensing Agreements. As keithcurtis explained it.&nbsp; This is similar as-to how D&amp;D CRPG (computer games; or any other name-brand trademark-IP-using computer games) were licensed for development by software companies (Bioware made Baldur's Gate, SSI made the Gold Box games, and so on). It's also similar to how each Dungeons &amp; Dragons Movie was produced, the film was made by movie-makers (with a Licensing Agreement) not by the D&amp;D staff (whom &amp; whose lawyers signed-off on the Licensing Agreement). The IP owner (let's say WoTC) licenses the rights to use the IP material in a limited &amp; approved way on a particular product line, to a developer, sometimes one side pays the other a fee at the start, and generally both sides would agree on a share of the future revenue. NOTE: I have no official information about the actual terms of any Roll20 agreements, this is just a common process that can be recognized in the arts publishing &amp; media industries.&nbsp; Mark S. said: I wasn't aware of any special rights Roll20 has on any WotC products. The owners or a representative of the company, have to set it up on the platform. When it is complete, they submit it to Roll20 for release. Roll20 neither creates nor owns copyrighted products and only gets a small percentage of the sales. At least that was my understanding and is the arrangement Roll20 has with all content creators. Roll20 does enforce a level of quality control but does not force creators to use specific features. Was there some special arrangement announced for the creation of the DMG? This is where my confusion lies. I am genuinely trying to figure out if I missed something

Regardless of who did the conversion on the 5e DMG, if Roll20 has X number of features (handouts, rollable tables, etc.) that can be used to implement it and another VTT platform has X+3 features that can be used to implement the DMG (either licensed/purchased or done by the user) that is a factor to consider when choosing a VTT.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, keith and Gold. Good to know.

I put most of the rollable tables in the DMG into macros last year, which took about a week or two off and on of work. It should be a simple enough task for a whole team of people expecting $40 a pop for the book.

Chris S. said: I put most of the rollable tables in the DMG into macros last year, which took about a week or two off and on of work. It should be a simple enough task for a whole team of people expecting $40 a pop for the book. Spoiler Alert @ Roll20 Team could you just copy the rollable tables from Chris since he already did the work? Was there some other reason the tables were not all provided as Rollable Tables, other than the amount of work to type them in? Was there a Roll20 limitation discovered, maybe something where having too many rollable tables would cause problems?

There would definitely be a lot of rollable tables and I'm not sure I'd want that many tables and macros without some sort of organization (ie. folders or a Table of Contents type of handout that can call the macro or table). I wasn't actually expecting rollable tables since non of the other WoTC books I purchased on Roll20 have them. What I'd like to know is why the journal is spammed with handouts of magic items, select game rules and such when I add the DMG map addon to a game. I was expecting it to be more like Volo's map add-on - the only handouts are of the maps.

Doug E. said: There would definitely be a lot of rollable tables and I'm not sure I'd want that many tables and macros without some sort of organization (ie. folders or a Table of Contents type of handout that can call the macro or table). I wasn't actually expecting rollable tables since non of the other WoTC books I purchased on Roll20 have them. What I'd like to know is why the journal is spammed with handouts of magic items, select game rules and such when I add the DMG map addon to a game. I was expecting it to be more like Volo's map add-on - the only handouts are of the maps. Given that there are over 200 tables and a large number of them are things that folks are not likely to roll (ex. Forms of government), I'm glad they are not in there. As for the handouts, They are very easy to delete from the game if you don't want them: delete their folder and all contents. There's no easy way to delete 150+ rollable tables.

To be fair, they could have provided SOME useful tables.&nbsp; Like random treasure tables.&nbsp; EDIT: 100s of tables would be hell to navigate, so I agree with you that having all of them would suck.&nbsp; But, man I wish they would have made random treasure rollable tables.

Roll20 had previously said they wanted the DMG to launch with a feature (e.g. PHB + Charactermancer). Well, rollable table management (folders, filter, etc.) would have been a good feature.

&gt; (i.e. PHB + Charactermancer) (Small grammatical quibble. I think you meant to use e.g. and not i.e. here.)

aisforanagrams said: To be fair, they could have provided SOME useful tables.&nbsp; Like random treasure tables.&nbsp; EDIT: 100s of tables would be hell to navigate, so I agree with you that having all of them would suck.&nbsp; But, man I wish they would have made random treasure rollable tables. The rollable tables could have been split into several add-ons, with detailed lists of which table was included where. Would not have been hard.