Roll20 uses cookies to improve your experience on our site. Cookies enable you to enjoy certain features, social sharing functionality, and tailor message and display ads to your interests on our site and others. They also help us understand how our site is being used. By continuing to use our site, you consent to our use of cookies. Update your cookie preferences .
×
Advertisement Create a free account

UDL 1.0 Updates, Bugs, & Feedback

1611699828

Edited 1619552222
Katie Mae
Roll20 Team
Hello there!  Roll20 recently announced on our blog that we have now considered Updated Dynamic Lighting to have reached 1.0 status. This new forum post is intended to be a living document that follows the progression of UDL as we continue beyond its 1.0 state, and will be updated frequently. (Usually by me, hi! I live inside this thread now.) This forum post will include:  New Feature Announcements Bug Fix Reports Answers To Your Questions About UDL (Ask away!) The questions and bugs were all pulled from the last Updated Dynamic Lighting Thread, and I’ve included footnotes back to the original reports. Thank you for your feedback and contributions. They’ve been so helpful in the process of working to make UDL something that works for your games.   Answering Your Questions:  When will I lose access to Legacy Dynamic Lighting? ( 1 ) The team at Roll20 is still deciding on the best date that works for both our team and our users. When that date is solidified, you’ll be the first to know. We promise to give you at least three months of notice, so you have time to make arrangements.  Why does Legacy Dynamic Lighting have to go away? ( 1 ) Legacy Dynamic Lighting simply wasn’t built to evolve with our platform over time. Keeping it would hinder performance, and we want to make sure we’re using our resources to focus on improvements.  What Needs Worked On:  GRID: We’ve received reports of Players and GMs losing sight of the grid when using characters with night vision. ( 1 , 2 , 3 ) [STATUS: CONFIRMED AND QUEUED  ] VISIBILITY: We’ve received reports of Players and GMs losing their sight, or experiencing tokens disappearing, after moving specific tokens. ( 1 , 2 , 3 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED ] DIMMING: We’ve heard your feedback about UDL not providing enough dim lighting for your gaming occasions, and are looking for the proper solution.  ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED]  LAG: We are continuing to monitor reports that general lag is what’s stopping you from using UDL. This has been an issue that we have been putting out incremental fixes for since UDL began; we are still assessing ways to further improve performance. ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED] RING/BULLSEYE EFFECT: There is a documented issue where some light sources have a ring/bullseye effect to them. Initial reports indicate that this may be a hardware issue, but we are still collecting info about this bug. If you’re experiencing it, please reach out! ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED] PAGE REVEAL: This is an old problem that we believed to be fixed, but are keeping an eye out to make sure it hasn’t reappeared. If you’re experiencing this issue, let us know. Collecting games where this is occurring is the most helpful thing for the dev team! [STATUS: COMPLETED] PAGE FREEZING: There have been reports of UDL freezing games. We’re still collecting information about this bug. If you’re experiencing it, please reach out! ( 1 ) [STATUS: IN PROGRESS] NIGHT VISION : There are parts of night vision that still need to be fixed, like night vision tokens overlapping and animated tokens having a ghost like effect on the gm layer. ( 1 ) [STATUS: CONFIRMED AND QUEUED ] JAGGED LINES: Some usage of UDL can cause jagged lines on the fringes of token vision. We are currently working on an anti-aliasing solution. ( 1 , 2 ) [STATUS: IN PROGRESS] SETTINGS: There are reports of UDL settings not saving. ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED] CTL+L CRASH ON PAGE SWITCH: When switching between pages with UDL to pages with LDL, pages can crash. ( 1 ) [ STATUS: COMPLETED] TOTAL LIGHT VALUE ERROR: There is a circumstance in which altering light values can cause it to return the wrong total value.[ 1 ] [STATUS: COMPLETED] TOKEN SNAP LIGHTING: When a token is snapped to grid during drop, it can cause the light to become misaligned. ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED] LIGHTING BREAK LINE: There are some reports of a break line occurring between bright light and low light. ( 1 ) [STATUS: COMPLETED] LDL TROUBLES: Some people have reported an increase of problems using LDL. If you’re experiencing this issue, please contact the help center or make a new post in the bug forum! This thread is going to stay focused on UDL. ( 1 ) NIGHT VISION/DIM LIGHT: Dim light overlapping Night Vision makes Night Vision look darker. ( 1 ) [STATUS: IN PROGRESS] CTRL+L TOKEN SWAPPING: Using Ctrl+L on a token, does not allow for using Ctrl+L on another token, until deselecting the first. ( 1 ) [STATUS:  COMPLETED] TURNING OFF UDL AFFECTS OTHER PAGES: Related to "Page Reveal" from above. If the GM toggles UDL off on a page different from the one active for GM OR players, UDL is toggled off on active pages. ( 1 , 2 , 3 ) [STATUS:  CONFIRMED AND QUEUED] NIGHT VISION TINT: Overlapping Night Vision Tints for black or sufficiently dark colors, can completely obscure the map. ( 1 ) [STATUS:  CONFIRMED AND QUEUED] CTRL+L REVERSING ON PAGE SWAP: When swapping from a page with UDL while using Ctrl+L on a token to a different page with UDL, this can cause the Ctrl+L functionality to become swapped. Upon attempting to use Ctrl+L on another token, and then deselecting, the map will go dark and tokens disappear. [STATUS:  COMPLETED] DYNAMIC LIGHTING LAYER HIGHLIGHT: In the toolbar menu, the Dynamic Lighting layer is not highlighted while actively on the layer ( 1 ) [STATUS:  CONFIRMED AND QUEUED] DARKNESS OPTIONS MISSING IN DAYLIGHT MODE: Turning on Daylight mode causes darkness reset options to no longer appear. ( 1 ) REVEAL TOOL LEAVES PATCH OF DARKNESS: Using the reveal tool on large enough areas for some maps leaves behind a patch of darkness which seems to return. ( 1 ) [STATUS: INVESTIGATING] LIGHT MULTIPLIER: There seems to be an issue with the Light Multiplier not showing properly in certain use cases.  [STATUS: IN QA] If you are still experiencing a bug that we have marked as fixed, or a new one, please reach out to us! If you’re still having an issue from the previous thread that isn’t listed above, please let us know as well. The best way to do so is by reaching out through our Help Center , but if you report a bug here I may DM you for more information.  Latest UDL Updates: [02/16/2021]: New Dim Light Slider on live!  [02/16/2021]: Bug Fix For Lighting Break Line [02/20/2021]: Hotfix For Explorer Mode Bug [03/16/2021]: Circles For UDL Now Live On Dev!  [03/26/2021]: Dev Update!  [04/27/2021]: Update For Legacy Dynamic Lighting Sunset Planning
1611700042
Katie Mae
Roll20 Team
The release of UDL and the following communication after its release should have been better. There were (and are) problems and bugs that caused you to lose hours of valuable play time, with pain and frustration involved. As of right now, here are my questions for y’all:  For those of you who are using LDL, how can we help you feel comfortable in making the switch? If you have a game that is experiencing a game breaking UDL bug, and you haven’t already, can you send it to us ? When reaching out to us, here are the most helpful things to include:  Console log: Here you can find instructions for providing a console log in Chrome and Firefox . Link to game to game :   The URL when you're looking at your Game Details page . Don’t post this publicly! Screenshots/screen recordings: List of any browser add-ons or extensions enabled:
1611704056
Titus
Plus
First session after the 1.0 rollout and players could see the whole map. Had to switch back to LDL...
First session after the 1.0 rollout I turned it on and then off again.  When playing people that use their dad's old laptop and/or intermittent wifi, it's just a no-go.
1611708067

Edited 1611708090
I'm still on LDL, primarily for the following things that aren't present in UDL: I need the darkvision (or night vision) to work as is does in LDL, providing a dim level of visibility. I need dim light to be significantly darker than bright light. I need a clear boundary between light and the darkness beyond the maximum range. I need a clear boundary shown between an area of dim light and bright light. --- I won't switch until I can be sure that the game will run without glitches. It would be nice to have a "light visible to other characters" set separately from the "my own vision" settings, so that a character carrying a torch can still use their own dark/night vision beyond the range of the torch. (But this fits in the "suggestions" forum rather than why I won't use UDL).
1611710304

Edited 1611759847
Going to borrow Farling's needs list, since it fits my own case (I'm still on LDL), and add some of my own. I need the darkvision (or night vision) to work as is does in LDL, providing a dim level of visibility. I need dim light to be significantly darker than bright light. I need a clear boundary between light and the darkness beyond the maximum range. I need a clear boundary shown between an area of dim light and bright light. I need UDL to run smoothly, without consistent or appreciable lag. My players and I don't play on high-spec machines. No memory leaks, no lag, no freezes. This thing has to be rock solid before I will adopt it. I need UDL to be glitch-free. No scenarios where players can suddenly see everything or nothing on a map, etc. I need UDL to not have jagged lines. If UDL can't simulate the look of LDL, then it is not in fact "updated."
1611717792
Wint
Plus
Katie Mae said: For those of you who are using LDL, how can we help you feel comfortable in making the switch? The responses you're going to get to this will all boil down to the same thing; "if UDL actually worked..."
1611722737
Sewer Crew Gaming
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Wint said: Katie Mae said: For those of you who are using LDL, how can we help you feel comfortable in making the switch? The responses you're going to get to this will all boil down to the same thing; "if UDL actually worked..." What wint said. I will not be comfortable switching until I can do everything I can do with LDL in addition to what UDL offers, and without any of the horrendous bugs and additional hardware requirements. Until that is the case, I will not use it, and I will be upset if it is removed, because it is not "updated". Reduced functionality is not an update, it is a downgrade.
1611731559

Edited 1613676574
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Katie Mae said: For those of you who are using LDL, how can we help you feel comfortable in making the switch? To feel comfortable making a switch to UDL, the following needs to happen: UDL needs to work reliably day in and day out Comms about UDL need to be honest UDL needs to fix the backwards steps in functionality compared to LDL These points are expanded below. UDL needs to work reliably day in and day out In the 9.5 months that UDL has been available, there has not been a single day in which everything "just worked". <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/8422745/a-new-light-bug-thread-updated-dynamic-lighting-and-fog-of-war/?pagenum=1" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/8422745/a-new-light-bug-thread-updated-dynamic-lighting-and-fog-of-war/?pagenum=1</a> <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9072910/updated-dynamic-lighting-legacy-sunset-feedback-thread/?pageforid=9072910#post-9072910" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9072910/updated-dynamic-lighting-legacy-sunset-feedback-thread/?pageforid=9072910#post-9072910</a> <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9072910/updated-dynamic-lighting-feedback-thread" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9072910/updated-dynamic-lighting-feedback-thread</a> In contrast, despite its limitations that were added in the AFoW rewrite, LDL has largely "just worked" day in and day out. UDL needs to be bulletproof. People need to be able to go into their game week after week without experiencing bugs. Comms about UDL need to be honest This boils down to a loss of trust from Roll20's users. Roll20's communication about UDL has been designed to get people using the feature without regard to the cost to Roll20's users. Few people proactively read these kinds of threads on the forums, so the following messages tell them that there is a great new feature to use in their games: <a href="https://blog.roll20.net/post/614847973200969728/a-new-light" rel="nofollow">https://blog.roll20.net/post/614847973200969728/a-new-light</a> <a href="https://blog.roll20.net/post/625101101120798720/a-new-light-a-new-path-ahead" rel="nofollow">https://blog.roll20.net/post/625101101120798720/a-new-light-a-new-path-ahead</a> On top of that, notifications were placed on every game. If the notification was dismissed, it just came back the next time the page was loaded. Katie Mae said: The release of UDL and the following communication after its release should have been better. There were (and are) problems and bugs that caused you to lose hours of valuable play time, with pain and frustration involved. This was released less than two weeks ago: <a href="https://blog.roll20.net/post/640321601818198016/updated-dynamic-lighting-10-is-live" rel="nofollow">https://blog.roll20.net/post/640321601818198016/updated-dynamic-lighting-10-is-live</a> Officially designating software (or a feature) as "1.0" communicates that the feature is complete and relatively bug free. UDL is neither. Roll20's comms keep overselling UDL. That needs to stop. UDL needs to fix the backwards steps in functionality This is the big one. Design decisions were made at the beginning of UDL that have represented steps backward in functionality compared to LDL. When these have been brought up in the bug threads, the problems have been largely ignored or pasted over with another change that takes another step backward. It's going to take some time to write all of these up. So I will make more posts and then link them here. Poor ray casting Walls block vision from the edge instead of the center Night Vision can't do 5e like LDL can &nbsp;(and its more controversial extension&nbsp; Special light mixes strangely ) Dim light is (partly) too bright &nbsp;- (Feb 16) while still too bright out of the box, UDL's low light can now be made to match what LDL produced. The Convert Tool gives bad results UDL does not remember settings Bugs There are a few bugs I have not seen reported elsewhere. Visual break between bright and dim light &nbsp;- (fixed Feb 16) Light does not follow token when the token snaps to the grid on drop Ctrl+L hides everything if active when switching from LDL to UDL Total light value incorrectly updated when only low light is used Notch in DL polygon at first corner Low light slider missing from Game Default Settings &nbsp;-&nbsp;false alarm
1611737017

Edited 1611752663
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
One of the worst parts of UDL and biggest steps backward in terms of functionality and performance is the Poor Ray Casting Roll20 has used the most basic form of ray casting in UDL and deemed it "good enough". Why would I say that? (Click to view GIF) Because the brute force ray casting used seems to check lots of rays instead of just the end points of lines. Whereas LDL has smooth lines at the limits of vision, UDL has a swath of jagged edges where each ray terminates. Let that sink in for a moment and think about what it means. There was a good, existing algorithm that was highly performant, and Roll20 rebuilt the wheel with an inefficient, brute force algorithm. I suspect the only significant difference between UDL's release and now has been the number of rays used. Whereas jagged lines were larger early on, they are less noticeable now unless a light source or viewer is further away from a wall. Early- the door is a straight, horizontal line that appears slanted Recent - nearby lines are smoother and further away lines and those at an oblique angle have lots of bumps The lack of progress on this front is even stranger considering that excellent algorithms come up with an obvious Google search. <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=2d+ray+casting" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/search?q=2d+ray+casting</a> This example is Roll20's need in a nutshell, and it is one of many that handle Roll20's use case better than Roll20.&nbsp; <a href="https://www.redblobgames.com/articles/visibility/" rel="nofollow">https://www.redblobgames.com/articles/visibility/</a> It starts with simple ray casting, and then moves on to algorithms that are more complex but are more performant and more pleasing to the eye (with straight lines). On top of that, the code is released under a commercially viable license. The article describes where to optimize, and how to offload from the CPU to the GPU. The point here is not to tout one algorithm over another but to say that after 1.5 years of R&amp;D, UDL should be beyond brute force ray casting.
1611750643

Edited 1611817471
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Another step back is that Walls block vision from the edge instead of the center The change to DL lines blocking sight from the edges instead a thin line down the middle (regardless of line thickness) is a major point of consternation. This was changed at the end of June in the same update as a number of other changes (including the larger collision box) because someone decided to have tokens see from their edge while having collision detection from the middle, allowing tokens against a wall to see on the other side of the wall.&nbsp; In Legacy DL, the middle of the line restricts the token vision regardless of how thick the line is. Here is the layout on the DL layer. Here is how it looks to a player in Legacy DL. The secret door is nearly imperceptible. The secret door leaps out in Updated DL. If UDL is released with this change, it is going to require days for me to go through the maps of all of my products and the products I have created under contract. Then there is going to be the downtime waiting for the updates to be pushed to the marketplace. It is also significantly harder to match the edges of DL lines versus matching the centers of DL lines. I cannot think of a use case where restricting vision based on line thickness should be the default. The thing is it is unnecessary. We already can make a filled box with thin line weight to make a wall in LDL that blocks vision from the edge. On top of the loss of functionality, this is also slower as UDL has to check 4 times the lines of LDL. (animated GIF) So to recap the changed functionality: Makes mixed line weights difficult Hides map art on thin doors and walls that need to be viewed from both sides Does not provide any benefit that cannot already be done in LDL with a filled box or polygon Requires time-consuming updates to marketplace products Is slower I currently have around 24 marketplace adventure products under my account or that I maintain under contract, with more on the way. Those have thin DL lines for walls, because thin lines are harder to grab (walls generally should not move), and they have thick lines for doors, because doors should move (thick lines are easier to grab). So me making things a little better for my customers now means that I am looking at having to update the DL lines across all of these products and push updates to all of them. On top of that, more of the map art is being covered up, which can be a problem for walls and doors that can be viewed from both sides as well as small columns that have an "X" down the middle. In some cases, the players just cannot see what they are supposed to be looking at.
1611755291

Edited 1611769055
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Probably the singular most-panned part of UDL is that Night Vision can't do 5e like LDL can In another case of "ignore what the old system did so the new system doesn't have to do it", UDL left a core piece of functionality out for half of its user base. In LDL, overlapping fields of dim light get brighter. People who wanted to implement darkvision were instructed to have the token emit light that only the player would see. When this combined with other dim lights, the brightness increased. In each of the following examples, the two lights on top have 10 feet of bright light and 10 feet of dim light. The lights on the bottom have only 20 feet of dim light. Dim Light Combinations While it may appear that overlapping fields of dim light in LDL do not get brighter, they actually do. Look at the bottom left of the image. The four dim torches in the bottom left create a significantly brighter area than the one dim torch in the bottom right. Additionally, overlapping fields of dim light from bright/dim light sources also get brighter. It takes about 8 fields of dim light to really get it to match bright light. In UDL, just two overlapping dim light fields are needed to make bright light. LDL's increase of brightness is more subtle than UDL's, but it definitely is there. When players had a token with darkvision, they saw the light increase as they moved a token across a dim light source. So here is the conundrum. LDL's light blending is actually more accurate to real life, but UDL has a nicer progression from bright to dim, requires fewer lights to get the desired effect, and carries the key to truly implement 5e darkvision. From my reading, it generally takes 4 light sources to double illuminance (the perceived amount of light). LDL gets close at 4 but needs 8 fields of dim light to truly hit bright. Where it makes a nicer effect is that overlapping areas stay darker, keeping with a light's drop in intensity being the square of the distance traveled. If the lightening effect was essentially doubled, it would be very, very good at modeling real-world light blending. As it stands, it is better at keeping the "mood" in areas with multiple dim lights. On the flip side, UDL is simpler to use and requires fewer lights to achieve bright light, which is good for performance. Crucially though, a combination of two UDL lights does what people want for darkvision. Sharpening was added after people complained about bright light night vision. Color was added after complaints about the sharpening effect. For reference, here is the current interaction between Night Vision and dim light: The dim light actually darkens the Night Vision. Night Vision (Dimming) is also darkened by dim lights, but the effect is less since we are already starting darker. Implementing Night Vision as another light from the start would have: Avoided the complaints about missing darkvision Had customers singing praises about the new Night Vision Avoided a slew of bugs brought about by creating another light source that was different than normal light sources Allowed the addition of color to hit regular lights as well Represented how dim light vision actually works, by accentuating other light wavelengths
1611756149
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Something that has been brought to light more recently is that Dim light is too bright There are problems with how dim light's intensity is distributed over its area. It starts as bright light at the start of the area and fades to darkness at the furthest edge of its area. This becomes a problem when the light is cast over a large area to simulate dim conditions such as a moonlit night. A comparison is given in LDL and UDL. LDL -&nbsp; <a href="https://youtu.be/2TBuKoxmjN4" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/2TBuKoxmjN4</a> UDL -&nbsp; <a href="https://youtu.be/5LUDIZWf0EQ" rel="nofollow">https://youtu.be/5LUDIZWf0EQ</a> This map represents a dock on a moonlit night. There are 3 street lamps giving off dim light, and another token in the bottom-left corner of the page simulates the moonlight over the entire map. It does that by casting dim light over 300 feet. The LDL map handles this well. The areas around the street lamps are brightly lit, and the rest of the map is still visible. In contrast, the UDL map looks like it is daytime. In UDL, dim light starts bright and then fades to dark the further you get to the edge of the light's area. When the dim light is cast over a large area, a large portion of that area is&nbsp; bright &nbsp;light. At the end of the UDL video, I put up a DL wall so that the player's token can see on both sides of the wall. This creates an area where you can compare the "dim" light cast over a large area with the dim light from a "smaller" light.
1611757060
I have been setting all my maps up with UDL.&nbsp; Almost every time when I move the players to the map, I will have all, some, or one who cannot see the map.&nbsp; Usually the one is the player using Safari and we have convinced them to switch to Firefox which has helped somewhat.&nbsp; The result of this is that I am constantly switching back to LDL whenever I cross my fingers and switch maps.&nbsp; On the good side (tongue-in-cheek), I have become really good at quickly switching token settings and map settings.&nbsp;
Roll20, PLEASE read and pay attention to Brian C.'s excellent posts, because they articulate all of my problems with UDL, and many other users' problems too. In particular the overselling of UDL and the many ways UDL falls short of LDL's feature set. Do not brush people off. Don't sell bugs as features. Don't gaslight your customers when the product doesn't work. Fix UDL exactly as requested or you will lose many, many customers. Lastly, the issues raised by users have been documented over and over again in the past 9 months. Not niche cases, either; they are frequently big, show-stopping, game-breaking bugs. So I will not be wasting my time filing lengthy bug reports. That is YOUR job. This is YOUR company. I am a paying customer, and I refuse to do unpaid QA for a product I am ALREADY PAYING FOR.&nbsp;
1611760924

Edited 1614278944
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Something that appears to hardly have been touched since its launch is that The Convert Tool gives bad results The following LDL situations don't always give reasonable results in UDL when run through the Convert Tool Scenario LDL setup UDL after conversion Valid? Map with no DL (Start Page, landing page, regional map, outdoor daytime map with no obstructions) No DL DL No, this causes a black page that cannot be viewed without a token with vision. A page without LDL activated should not have UDL activated. Dim ambient light set by a single light source Emits Light: 300/-5 All Players See Light Emits Bright: 300 No, it's supposed to be dim ambient light. Dim street light Emits Light: 25/0 All Players See Light Emits Bright: 25 No, the lamp should be emitting dim light. Spotlight (Hard Edge) Emits Light: 50/50 All Players See Light Emits Bright: 50 Emits Dim: 0 Sort of. The values are correct, but it lacks the hard edge. Torch Emits Light: 40/20 All Players See Light Emits Bright: 20 Emits Dim: 20 Total: 40 Yes PC normal vision Has Sight Vision Night Vision: 0 No, Night Vision should not be activated PC with torch Emits Light: 40/20 Has Sight All Players See Light Vision Bright: 20 Dim: 20 Yes PC 5e darkvision Emits Light: 60/0 Has Sight Vision Night Vision: 60 Sort of. The numbers are good, but its "bright" night vision. If the second number in LDL's Emits Light is &lt;= 0 and the token Has Sight, the Dimming effect should be applied. PC truesight Emits Light: 60/___ Has Sight Vision Night Vision: 60 Yes Daylight map with AFoW AFoW -Dim Light Reveals DL -Enforce Line of Sight -Global Illumination DL Explorer Mode Daylight Mode Yes Dark Cave AFoW -Dim Light Reveals DL -Enforce Line of Sight DL Explorer Yes Low light + darkvision Emits Light: 30/0 Multiplier: x2 ? Possibly not? I have not had a chance to test it, but I am guessing that it does not since other tests have only had direct copying of the numbers. To succeed, UDL would need the following values: NV: 60 (dimming) Multiplier: x2/200% I will add to this if I think up any other scenarios. The problem with pages without LDL having UDL activated and a PC with just "Has Vision" getting Night Vision, even if it has a 0 radius, are the low points. If a user activates the Convert Tool with everything checked (the default option), each page and token should have the UDL version of the LDL's settings---no more, no less. Users don't always remember which tokens and pages have no settings activated (to uncheck them in the Convert Tool), and customers of marketplace products are not going to know what should and should not be converted. EDIT: I don't now how I missed it the first time through, but dim lights being converted into bright lights is particularly surprising.
1611761087
Please read Brian C's posts again, and then another time. These are the reasons so many of us on the forum are looking at leaving behind loads of purchased marketplace content to go to Foundry VTT, because it actually works. Most of us love LDL. Most of us cannot use UDR at all in its current form . Repeatedly implying that you can sunset LDL anytime soon is going to continue to push otherwise loyal users off your platform.
1611761684

Edited 1611762189
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
And for some reason UDL does not remember settings Sometimes we temporarily turn off settings. Sometimes, the control gets bumped. Sometimes we don't remember the correct settings off the top of our head. (animated GIFs) Really, all settings should stay at their original values. If UDL is turned off for a page, or Vision turned off for a token, there is no reason not to keep the values underneath active. Because the master control has been turned off, they still won't be active, and trying to remember what the values should be reset to is not always going to be successful.
Brian is a pro.
1611776673
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
THANK YOU!!! to Brian for taking the time and effort to document everything so concisely. I really, really want UDL to succeed.
1611776863
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
keithcurtis said: THANK YOU!!! to Brian for taking the time and effort to document everything so concisely. I really, really want UDL to succeed. You're welcome. I also really want UDL to succeed. I haven't taken the time for the last two years to point out where the lighting rewrites have needed to improve for the fun of it.
1611778856

Edited 1611779172
Katie Mae
Roll20 Team
I agree!! Brian is a pro! Thanks for all of this thoughtfully laid out feedback, everyone.&nbsp; I've added UDL not remembering settings to our list of things to fix, as well as adding Brian's other reports to our existing bug list. I totally understand the need for a bug free experience, and that’s a core focus of ours before we sunset LDL. I’ve already started sharing this feedback with the UDL team, and these comments have been incredibly useful! I know that some of this feedback has been provided in the past. But hearing it again helps me specifically and lets us know what steps are still needed to make UDL the experience we all want it to be. That’s partially why I wanted to start this new thread: to refocus on the top priorities of the community.&nbsp;&nbsp; TL;DR: No major updates from me, bug list has been updated, thank you all for the feedback!
Hi Katie Mae! I have been using Roll20 since nearly a year now every week in the free version as a DM in a DND 5e campaign. It is a great tool and I have come to appreciate its many brilliant features in hundreds of hours of play time. I recently bought the subscription primarily because I wanted to use the dynamic lighting for uncovering fog of war. This has been a tedious manual task in the free version. (Of course this still was an improvement over painting things with a marker on flipchart paper as we used to before.) After setting up a test map and adjusting token settings I introduced my players to the feature. It was not working smoothly but I considered it sufficient. Then I changed some of my battlemaps in the campaign to UDL and we used this in play. It was a catastrophe. I wasn't able to have players see what they should and how they should. Some areas in my battlemaps were disclosed for no apparent reason. Then at some point UDL disclosed my complete battlemap (including secret passages of course). I had to stop and revert everything to manual fog of war. It just did not work. I was so disappointed. This was after UDL was declared finished. I have been project manager in software development projects for more than 20 years. I have seen projects fail, but honestly: All this time I have never seen a software product declared finished that was so broken so severely for so many people. If I was responsible I would pull external expertise (at least on par with the current lead developer / technical lead) into the project team for a review. Just in case you're counting the number of people reporting bugs: +1. If you're counting the number of bugs reported: +7 (referring to your list above). Regarding this bug: PAGE REVEAL: This is an old problem that we believed to be fixed, but are keeping an eye out to make sure it hasn’t reappeared. If you’re experiencing this issue, let us know. [STATUS: ON HOLD] So hereby I let you know: I'm experiencing this very issue. It is the killer bug which makes the feature unusable for me. I don't think you need more bug descriptions. I have read some amazingly detailed description here so I will not repeat what has been reported here often enough. Some good piece in the end: I purchased the subscription ALSO because I wanted to give credit to the Roll20 developers for a good tool. This purpose at least will not be spoiled by software bugs.
Dr. Fu Man Chu I have to agree with you. I am a retired Software developer from a world class industrial software house. Roll20 has so many bugs that do not seem get fixed. It makes me feel that amateurs are running asylum.&nbsp;
1611783081

Edited 1611817637
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Have you noticed that Special lighting mixes strangely while regular lighting seems to mix largely as expected? Regular lights interact with each other much as one would expect. I suspect that interesting use of blending is being used to remove the masks to cause the fade to black (and dim light). Bright/Bright - this is probably the most "normal" interaction. The fade-to-black (F2B) interaction is almost seamless Dim/Dim - There is some good Dim + Dim = Bright interaction, but it has an unexpected ring around it which I suspect is the F2B masks in a blending operation. Bright/Dim - Nothing too unexpected here. The problem really rises with Night Vision. If you look at the bugs over the last 9.5 months, a big portion of them are related to Night Vision and its interaction with other Night Vision tokens and lighting. Looking at the interaction between Night Vision and regular lights, the question arises: what real-life construct or game system is Roll20 trying to model? Bright/NV - The F2B mask on the bright light overlays the Night Vision which is. . . okay I guess. It tells the user that bright light is overriding/mixing with Night Vision, but it requires people to pay attention, and it gets more difficult to observe/keep track of on tokens with larger light/NV radii. Dim/NV - and it gets weirder. The dim light makes the NV darker. Again, it is communicating the overlap, but its up to the user to pay attention and interpret what it means. 5e darkvision could be considered to be similar to a dog's vision: black and white in the dark and more in color as the lighting improves. In this case, dim light is making the night vision darker, which is probably not desired. Bright/NV (dimming) - Similar to Bright/NV. Aside from the mask, it makes sense. Dim/NV (dimming) - Similar to Dim/NV but a bit more silly. The dim light is making dim &nbsp;Night Vision darker. Bright/NV (tinted) - Similar to the Bright/NV (dimming) scenario, but systems that might use a colored tint (such as military night vision goggles) would normally keep the area in green, just a brighter green. Dim/NV (tinted) Multiple NV (tinted) - only two colors get blended. When 3 tokens are together, only the blended color of two shows up. I suspect it is the first two tokens created because switching the z-order of the tokens has no effect. From day 1, customers like me have clamored for a darkvision option like what we have in LDL. . . and we seem to have gotten everything else except for that. If Night Vision had been implemented as a light source only the player (and GM) could see, people would have been singing Roll20's praises for finally implementing what they wanted. Dimming Night Vision does half of what we want but lacks the proper light blending. Even if it did, Night Vision lacks the ability to have both bright and dim Night Vision. This can happen with interesting combinations of spells, magic items, class options and epic boons. For instance, a drow with the level 20 epic boon that grants 60 feet of truesight cannot be implemented in UDL, but 60 feet of bright light and 60 feet of dim light that only the player can see can be implemented in LDL. With Night Vision as it stands, I still wonder, what was the target use case? It's not the darkvision style used by 5e and friends in 50%-66% percent of Roll20's games (depending on game systems included). Night Vision has purposely been made to be a light source that behaves differently. A light that only the player sees is the definition of basic Night Vision and provides the blending that a majority of customers want. Extra blending options to restrict the interaction of regular lights with Night Vision could then be added as options. The best part would be that since Night Vision was another light (with restrictions on who could see it), those special blending options could then be extended to regular lights. Imagine an extreme sharpen or blur filter on a light. When a player token enters an area, the blur/sharpen from the regular light shows that an environmental effect was altering everyone's perceptions in the area. Night Vision could have started from a place where it walked before it tried to run by successfully delivering the Night Vision effects that a majority of customers wanted before adding in the extras that brought in everyone else (and gave everyone cool toys to play with).
1611786812
Wint
Plus
One thing Brian touched on that I really want to emphasize is that roll20 has not been clear and consistent in its communications about UDL for a long time. The most charitable interpretation is that roll20 devs have been consistently 'grass is red, the sky is yellow' level of wrong about their own product for months. The more realistic one is that roll20 has been consistently lying to users and purposefully misleading them about UDL. This has been well documented in this feedback thread, the previous one, and the one before that. That sort of purposeful, consistent action from a company absolutely sinks any level of trust a user has in the company's product. It makes it incredibly hard to take anything said about UDL from roll20 as true.
Wint said: One thing Brian touched on that I really want to emphasize is that roll20 has not been clear and consistent in its communications about UDL for a long time. The most charitable interpretation is that roll20 devs have been consistently 'grass is red, the sky is yellow' level of wrong about their own product for months. The more realistic one is that roll20 has been consistently lying to users and purposefully misleading them about UDL. This has been well documented in this feedback thread, the previous one, and the one before that. That sort of purposeful, consistent action from a company absolutely sinks any level of trust a user has in the company's product. It makes it incredibly hard to take anything said about UDL from roll20 as true. +100 The problems with UDL either stem from Roll20 incompetence or Roll20 deception. Neither one is a good look and will cost Roll20 many customers in the long run.
1611805880

Edited 1611805916
Thanks for hearing us out, Katie Mae... everyone is being very thorough in cataloguing the various issues. The frustrating part about all this... and I mean to say, frustrating for us but almost certainly frustrating for you and the devs as well... is that there aren't too many "minor" lighting bugs. If you can't see, or you see too much, then the lighting has failed. Not a ton of middle ground when it comes to DL. One bug that I don't think I saw mentioned in this thread... the sight multiplier doesn't seem to work. If I set a token to 30' of nightvision with a 200% multiplier, the token still can only see 30 feet, when it ought to be able to see 60. At least, I think &nbsp;that's a bug... it's possible I've missed something. Again, thanks for talking to us. The more you're here to listen and pass information back and forth, the more at ease people will become with the process. I know I'm going to convert to UDL at some point, so it's in my best interest to root for the devs. It's hard when we feel ignored; this is a much nicer feeling. :)
1611809415
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
Craig M. said: One bug that I don't think I saw mentioned in this thread... the sight multiplier doesn't seem to work. If I set a token to 30' of nightvision with a 200% multiplier, the token still can only see 30 feet, when it ought to be able to see 60. At least, I think &nbsp;that's a bug... it's possible I've missed something. I thought the multiplier was only supposed to affect sight from actual light, so would not affect darkvision, but I haven't messed with it in a while, so that may have just been how things worked several updates ago.
1611817948

Edited 1611818561
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Craig M. said: One bug that I don't think I saw mentioned in this thread... the sight multiplier doesn't seem to work. If I set a token to 30' of nightvision with a 200% multiplier, the token still can only see 30 feet, when it ought to be able to see 60. At least, I think &nbsp;that's a bug... it's possible I've missed something. It may be that you are bringing recommended settings from LDL to UDL. In both versions, the lighting multiplier doubles the effective distance of lights seen by the token. In LDL, darkvision was implemented as a light, so it needed to be set to 30 feet when the lighting multiplier was doubled so that it would end up at 60 feet. In UDL, Night Vision is not considered to be a light, so it is not doubled. I added a test case to the convert tool post:&nbsp;<a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/permalink/9743305/" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/permalink/9743305/</a>
1611836073
Laurent
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Katie Mae said: For those of you who are using LDL, how can we help you feel comfortable in making the switch? I won't use UDL until it works for all my players. One of my players on an ipad only sees a black screen when I switch to UDL. Overall that means that I haven't tested UDL a lot, but at least the fact that walls block vision from the edge instead of the center is an issue for me. And I would have to trust UDL not to be too likely to reveal my entire maps...
My quick 2 cents... I subscribed for access to LDL. Was excited about UDL... turned it on after the announcement and then either my players could see nothing at all or they saw more than they should. Spoiled the experience, turned it off. I'm not prepared to test it for Roll20, some are (and thankyou) and until this thread and Roll20 announcements are in agreement that these fundamental aspects are fixed I won't be using it. This has triggered me to look at alternative products and if it is still borked by the time my subscription is up I may well leave. Your move Roll20.
1611847127
Ah, thanks Kraynic and Brian.
1611869666

Edited 1611869691
Katie Mae
Roll20 Team
Dr. Fu Man Chu - Thanks for taking the time to share all of this with me! I’ve gone ahead and edited the bug list to reopen the page reveal bug.&nbsp;&nbsp; Wint &amp; Jay - I hear y’all. Communication is a big focus for me and I am trying out some new things and pushing to be more active and vocal in this space. Hopefully, you and everyone else starts to see the fruits of those efforts soon!! Thanks again Brian for the lighting breakdown! I’ve forwarded that on to the devs. And thanks everyone for taking time to give Craig advice.&nbsp; Von Viniga - Totally understandable! Keep an eye on this space for our improvements. And if you feel comfortable doing so, please send a report our way with the problem game in question. With the weekend coming up, I’ll be off working on bug reports and collation (specifically on page reveal &amp; freezing). I’m still looking for games with those issues, so if you have them please reach out!&nbsp;
Maybe Brian would be willing to copy his setups into a game for the devs to test UDL out on, and they could follow his test plan. Once all those issues are addressed in that "UDL Testing Ground" game, then I will take a look at UDL again.
1611891511
Just adding that my group tonight has the full page reveal bug whenever Explorer Mode is turned on.&nbsp;
1611943179
PaOx
Pro
Just starting a new campaign and thought I'd check in on where UDL is at since I last look earlier this Summer. It's pretty disappointing that the "What Needs Worked On" list is basically still the same list of major issues that prevented me from using UDL 6 months ago. It's as if no improvements have been made and Roll20 just decided to move forward with version 1.0. It seems crazy that Roll20 keeps pushing DMs to upgrade their games to UDL when it is clearly still not reliably useable. I am very glad I checked this thread before following Roll20's advice and upgrading. I'll check back in another 6 months.
1611949295
Unfortunately this does seem to be going nowhere despite a ton of feedback from the community.&nbsp; My players have said they can't be bothered as Roll20 is a mess and, because they are spread across several countries, that leaves us dead in the water. There are far worse things happening in the world right now, but please Roll20, commit the resources to this and bring in talent where you are clearly struggling
1611950324
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Simon G. said: Unfortunately this does seem to be going nowhere despite a ton of feedback from the community.&nbsp; My players have said they can't be bothered as Roll20 is a mess and, because they are spread across several countries, that leaves us dead in the water. There are far worse things happening in the world right now, but please Roll20, commit the resources to this and bring in talent where you are clearly struggling Is there something that keeps you from using LDL in the meantime?
keithcurtis said: Simon G. said: Unfortunately this does seem to be going nowhere despite a ton of feedback from the community.&nbsp; My players have said they can't be bothered as Roll20 is a mess and, because they are spread across several countries, that leaves us dead in the water. There are far worse things happening in the world right now, but please Roll20, commit the resources to this and bring in talent where you are clearly struggling Is there something that keeps you from using LDL in the meantime? With no offense intended, why would he commit to learning and adopting a system that Roll20 keeps telling us will be phased out in the near future? It's one thing for existing LDL users, like me, to keep going with it. It's another if you aren't already using LDL. Declaring UDL to be at 1.0 is farcical, given how many game-breaking bugs, performance issues, and absent features are still present after nine months.&nbsp;
1611960080
Jay R. said: keithcurtis said: Simon G. said: Unfortunately this does seem to be going nowhere despite a ton of feedback from the community.&nbsp; My players have said they can't be bothered as Roll20 is a mess and, because they are spread across several countries, that leaves us dead in the water. There are far worse things happening in the world right now, but please Roll20, commit the resources to this and bring in talent where you are clearly struggling Is there something that keeps you from using LDL in the meantime? With no offense intended, why would he commit to learning and adopting a system that Roll20 keeps telling us will be phased out in the near future? It's one thing for existing LDL users, like me, to keep going with it. It's another if you aren't already using LDL. Declaring UDL to be at 1.0 is farcical, given how many game-breaking bugs, performance issues, and absent features are still present after nine months.&nbsp; This to be fair. Whilst I would learn and use LDL as I do prefer the look now I have seen side by sides, my players have already voted with their feet. Damage done.&nbsp; They would rather wait until we are post pandemic than go back to this, and I cannot affect that. Pre-pandemic we were ardent P&amp;P players, loving the craic of sitting around the table and eating, drinking and never letting the half -orc barbarian forget his roll of a 1 to push over a 9' statue whenever we could get together. Roll20 was only ever a patch, a make-do until we could get back around the table.&nbsp; I just want it to go back to at least where it was when I went to Plus as we could at least continue with the campaign and resources I have paid a substantial amount of money (to Roll20) for.&nbsp; At present it has backslid and I am done, there are lots of "we're working and we're listening" but when was there last an improvement?&nbsp; Like many of Aule's children I am slow to anger, but long burns my wrath
Simon G. said: Whilst I would learn and use LDL as I do prefer the look now I have seen side by sides, my players have already voted with their feet. Damage done.&nbsp; They would rather wait until we are post pandemic than go back to this, and I cannot affect that. Pre-pandemic we were ardent P&amp;P players, loving the craic of sitting around the table and eating, drinking and never letting the half -orc barbarian forget his roll of a 1 to push over a 9' statue whenever we could get together. Roll20 was only ever a patch, a make-do until we could get back around the table.&nbsp; I just want it to go back to at least where it was when I went to Plus as we could at least continue with the campaign and resources I have paid a substantial amount of money (to Roll20) for.&nbsp; At present it has backslid and I am done, there are lots of "we're working and we're listening" but when was there last an improvement?&nbsp; Like many of Aule's children I am slow to anger, but long burns my wrath Fair enough. I haven't played F2F with my regular group in over a decade, on account of not living in the same city for the same length of time. If you're planning to go back to F2F as soon as you're able, more power to you. Also, mad props for the totally apt Silmarillion reference. :)
1611966658
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Fair enough, all round. Just trying to suggest a workable solution, rather than continuing frustration.
1611987939
I just came here to report some serious bugs I have been having since upgrading my games to the new lighting. But looks like it is a known issue.&nbsp; Anyone know if there is a way to reverse the damage, and have things start working like they used to again?
Hi! I'd like to report a bug we've encountered a few times with Updated Dynamic Lighting, that tonight I figured out what was most likely triggering this issue each time. I'm sure others have encountered this before but just in case I figured I should share. When "Explorer Mode" was turned on and "Update when Token Drop" was turned off, moving two tokens, both with night vision (in this case a player and her familiar) at the same time caused the entire map to light up briefly. This left large sections of the map (much of which the players didn't have access to yet) "explored" in grayscale for all players to see. I can recreate this issue pretty easily, but it only happens when "Update when Token Drop" was off, turning it on prevents this.
1611990632
I'm getting an unusual bug where some tokens look dimmed to me whenever they're in an area of light. Of the 5 player tokens, one of them ends up bright still, the others are dimmed. Even their hp bars are dimmed. It's unusual. I'm testing to see if the players can see it too, or if it's just on my side.
1611999292
Katie Mae said: I agree!! Brian is a pro! Thanks for all of this thoughtfully laid out feedback, everyone.&nbsp; Well, then one way forward would be to start listening to him.&nbsp; It´s not like he voiced these things for the first time in this thread. Rather the 20th time over the course of probably almost a year?&nbsp; Roll20 has not listened to him (or any other paying customer).&nbsp; So the question is: Will you now? Or will you just continue doing what is absolutely not working for your customers? Whose money is used for your development and paychecks? You might think that you are too big to fail but you are not (have you heard of Nokia?).&nbsp; As long as LDL exists my games are now in a fairly functioning state and I can run them relatively smoothly.&nbsp; But I´m looking at the innovation and fast-paced customer-oriented development of some of your competitors with growing envy.&nbsp; I want this platform to succeed owing to the time and money I have invested. But there will come a day when I will say: It´s just too much, I can´t take this anymore. And believe me, I will not be alone.&nbsp;
Dynamic lighting stopped working for me completely. You can see it here: I am logged in as a player that is standing north of the wall where the light ends but he is still able to see inside the illuminated room. Also the player does not have night vision and there is no source of light so he should not see anything. So basically the character on the screenshot can break walls created on the dynamic lighting layer and he transfers his vision to ALL other characters. Any clues?
Vince M. said: Well, then one way forward would be to start listening to him.&nbsp; It´s not like he voiced these things for the first time in this thread. Rather the 20th time over the course of probably almost a year?&nbsp; Roll20 has not listened to him (or any other paying customer).&nbsp; So the question is: Will you now? Or will you just continue doing what is absolutely not working for your customers? Whose money is used for your development and paychecks? You might think that you are too big to fail but you are not (have you heard of Nokia?).&nbsp; As long as LDL exists my games are now in a fairly functioning state and I can run them relatively smoothly.&nbsp; But I´m looking at the innovation and fast-paced customer-oriented development of some of your competitors with growing envy.&nbsp; I want this platform to succeed owing to the time and money I have invested. But there will come a day when I will say: It´s just too much, I can´t take this anymore. And believe me, I will not be alone.&nbsp; Well-said, Vince. Roll20, your customers are not part of your staff . I come to this site to enjoy my hobby, not to do unpaid QA for a product I'm already paying for. The major issues with UDL have been documented, discussed, and reported for a long time. You shouldn't need or expect customers to produce detailed reports every time they experience an issue that has been known for months. Do that work yourself or you will continue to lost customers. Your 2021 roadmap mentions that you've hired at least one QA person recently. I would suggest hiring more QA, establishing a robust internal QA process, and adjusting your release schedule accordingly. That is, you don't release a product until it's actually functional (calling it complete doesn't make it so). It's hilarious and absurd that you would declare UDL to be at 1.0 when it is still massively broken, with issues both major and minor that routinely ruin whole sessions for your customers. Calling this product 1.0 is not living in reality. Continuing to announce plans to sunset LDL with the state UDL is in is not living in reality. Paying lip service to diligent customer feedback (like Brian's) but not actually listening or adjusting your plans is not living in reality. Customers are leaving your platform because they can feel the contempt behind the platitudes, the vague promises, and the customer gaslighting. They look at other VTTs with better feature sets, more stability, and genuinely responsive staff, and then they look at Roll20, which doesn't listen to its customers, innovates at a snail's pace, and regularly breaks existing features in the name of making them "better." And that's why they're jumping ship. I have a lot of time and energy and money invested in Roll20. Moving to another platform would be a big pain for my players and me. But if Roll20 keeps doing business as usual, there will come a time when the headache of moving platforms no longer outweighs the headache of staying with Roll20, and I will be gone. And, to echo Vince, I won't be alone.