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Magic Jar ptp interactions

As you saw last time, it is difficult to pin point souls once i am in the gem. I die , i get black-screened and all i can see are auras blocked only by invisible walls, pillars corridors ect. (Metawise as player, i do not want to toy with a player soul and would release it next turn if randomness demands a companion possession or soul transferance , in time i will master it via the secrets of the serpent society and demons lore ill aquire, but i do stress that i am not evil..nor good so you are safe and out of judgment in my company(other than birds en general)) -I would probably feud with an Aaracroka or two, by nature though.) (Metawise as Sidsaspi, none of is companions ave given triggers to chaotic or monstrous actions to take example of ; Hes a Neutral strict pure / no borderlines. Is lack of morals and blurred intellect makes more susceptible to chaotic evil influence though but none of the players are hardcore on those 2 axis. You ave given me all the reasons to help you.) Whoever, if next time i pre-cast it before a battle and i try to trigger the spell on each of you (fail or not) it won't ave any chance to possess you in battle as it work only one time per soul / per casting. I do understand that aving a caster and a snake no less wear you're skin and touch your soul for even a second would be traumatising experience for any normal humanoids . But remember, Sidsaspi ave no malice against any of you. Invert-ably;  I could be lawful good and demand the same thing. Soul magic is not  evil , its just ironic that it is used BY so much evil. Ave a good week everyone !
Hi guys , figured i should post Le post in this post...  since i try to minimize collateral broken meta. So.... i need your opinion before i start to play chest with it because of course i want to use it in that ONE game i am allowed to... My question: (not really for the gm, he does what he wants, it's for you guys) -If you magic jar someone in is sleep , do you think hes going to continue sleeping when he is released since hes in stasis in the crystal? Question to Avariel (entirely open discussion tho) -I ave thoughts about Sidsaspi possessing Avariel to ^save Limar^ in is questionably humble Yuan-ti ways...  Is this too much to had? With no spoilers, I , real me ^Cid^ is 95% sure hes getting Scott-free , but if you ask Sidsaspi , hes 50% sure and the risk is worth not to lose Limar's vote at the council or ave him remove from it... so if i apply character logic, Sidsaspi is concidering to wear the jury that day. So err Nate? I am pretty sure you won't go by the book on Limar that day and maybe you already are conflicted morally as player on Limars case ? How far would you brush off investigating WHO wore you that day while you slept ? If PTP you don't mind , i won't just think it out-loud like i'm doing... Basically, if you respond Yes , please don't in-game kill me for it tho XD PLEASE lol ALL You may also convey me it is unnecessary RP , totally get it at 95% Limar getting away with it.  The idea can stay in Sidsaspi's mind . 
I think this will cause a 100 problems and solve none, which is why you should do it.
Cedric D. said: Hi guys , figured i should post Le post in this post...  since i try to minimize collateral broken meta. So.... i need your opinion before i start to play chest with it because of course i want to use it in that ONE game i am allowed to... My question: (not really for the gm, he does what he wants, it's for you guys) -If you magic jar someone in is sleep , do you think hes going to continue sleeping when he is released since hes in stasis in the crystal? Question to Avariel (entirely open discussion tho) -I ave thoughts about Sidsaspi possessing Avariel to ^save Limar^ in is questionably humble Yuan-ti ways...  Is this too much to had? With no spoilers, I , real me ^Cid^ is 95% sure hes getting Scott-free , but if you ask Sidsaspi , hes 50% sure and the risk is worth not to lose Limar's vote at the council or ave him remove from it... so if i apply character logic, Sidsaspi is concidering to wear the jury that day. So err Nate? I am pretty sure you won't go by the book on Limar that day and maybe you already are conflicted morally as player on Limars case ? How far would you brush off investigating WHO wore you that day while you slept ? If PTP you don't mind , i won't just think it out-loud like i'm doing... Basically, if you respond Yes , please don't in-game kill me for it tho XD PLEASE lol ALL You may also convey me it is unnecessary RP , totally get it at 95% Limar getting away with it.  The idea can stay in Sidsaspi's mind .  First of all, you would have a very hard time achieving this — he has high SR, and being a paladin his Will save is also extremely high. Secondly, even if you did get through his defenses, you'd almost certainly get caught in the act, because the other Wayfinders aren't stupid and know how Avariel feels about the situation, let alone the fact that your body would be empty in the meantime which would not go unnoticed with Leoavor currently involved with tutoring you. You've already cast Magic Jar  and most of the NPC guild members don't trust you, so you'd probably end up out of the campaign one way or another (banished or executed) if you tried this. As a player, I personally believe spells like  Magic Jar  were a game design error on the part of the creators of D&D, so I would appreciate not having them used against my character at all, especially not by another PC. My reasons for this are manifold, but it essentially amounts to player agency (or in this case lack thereof). It's worse in live games but in general having someone else control your character is just not fun. Note that I'm being extremely mild here. Anyway, there you have it...
It seems like Sid is trying to force a double jeopardy loophole, where Limar can’t be tried twice for the same crime? The problem is, there’s no rule like that in the Guild laws. The High Council specifically made them simple and general, because with so many ethical value systems represented among the Council, the best compromise was to leave cases to the good judgment of the Justicier. So yeah, even if the spell worked (unlikely), and then even if Sid managed to bluff his way through in Avariel’s body (even less likely), the next day Avariel would just be like "hey, I didn’t try Limar" and everybody would believe him because he’s a paladin and never lies , and then an investigation would rapidly uncover what happened, Limar would be re tried and then Sid would be tried as well. It's a fun and clever idea in general, and might even work in certain circumstances (like if you were passing through somewhere and planned to leave town right after the trial), but I can't see any way it could succeed in these. Sid just doesn't have the resources to pull off this kind of con against a group as powerful, close-knit, and resourceful as the Wayfinders.
Since sids body is soulless while using this spell, would it count as a object that hiskel can shrink for easier transport?
Thanks for the response ! Mh, i totally agree with the both of you...   I'd never do this without your consent anyway and the risk is as i though, way too risky not to get caught... I'm sure you saw my point in no-harm-done if its only to make Avariel Say: ^ -Not guilty on all charge & give this dragon reparation. ^ Still, i will keep on trying to expand on Magic Jar since you KNOW i carve to use it because it's SO cool to ave it , the Trial of Limar i think is a event important enough to like i said ¨Move the chest pieces¨ ... thus why it was worth the PTP post to ask permission.   Also, metawise; i need to find low-key ways to stack up some corruption without triggering a fight response....   possession can be  very passive aggressive . Avariel no less, would be a treasure trove to gnaw at.  I need the Borderline: Evil for a prestige class and i want to avoid the staple to get it. As easy of getting a Evil Point sounds, getting a fractional one is pretty hard . Evil spells gives fractional corruption , insults , intimidations ...  at turtle pace...yeah. Plus spamming those just to get the points is...meh. i try not to overdue but if you're ever wondering , when i do this : It's likely as player to get some.   Example: The Handfang spell i casted during the Albius fight tecknicaly is valid fractional corruption .  ( Storywise ... say in parentisis : Sid is concidering it , but as agreed metawise. won't.) -Depending on what you would ave said, i do ave i knack in illusions, in conjunction with Misdirection spell, the lie becomes scry-proof. -Where i truly lack confidence even if you said yes is to VS my very average Bluff against a class of faith.... you won't see Sid lie often for that manner, plus lies gives Chaos Points , witch i don't want to overflow in for too long. For the super high Will... yeah Paladins are S tier near Will proof.... this is why i mentioned the asleep status ...if i recall the malus to Will when your asleep is astronomical.  I don't recall how much but it's minus A lot...
^Since sids body is soulless while using this spell, would it count as a object that hiskel can shrink for easier transport?^  ((I currently weight 460 lbs) , as a minifigure i'd be dence as F. lol, like weighting a Bar of Tungsten. XD , If it's even possible) 
Josh said: Since sids body is soulless while using this spell, would it count as a object that hiskel can shrink for easier transport? Yes, the caster's body is effectively a corpse (which is classified as an object) while the spell is active (though the magic of the spell keeps it from decaying during that time). It can be shrunken , but the caster's soul+lifeforce can't return to it while it's in a clothlike texture. If it's unshrunken  or just shrunken  normally (not cloth), the caster can return to it, but that would immediately end the shrink item  spell (since it wouldn't be an object anymore). Cedric D. said: For the super high Will... yeah Paladins are S tier near Will proof.... this is why i mentioned the asleep status ...if i recall the malus to Will when your asleep is astronomical.  I don't recall how much but it's minus A lot... Sleeping creatures take a big penalty to Reflex saves (effectively 0 Dex while helpless), but no penalties to Will or Fort saves. Even asleep, the mind is still present, and can react to sudden mental attacks. They are  considered "willing" if a spell specifies willing targets, though.
Oh, i know why i though Will was diminished... it's the Listen check skill that takes a hit ... sleep transcribes in the Helpless negative status... My bad. I must've mistook Listen checks for Will checks by memory.
for teleporting does a a soul trapped in a magic jar count as a person ( that needs to be willing and counts towards teleport creature limit) or a object?
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(need to add in the equation that out of range auto-kills me / no save) I think yes, we already did when we left Selune. I teleported wearing Albius while is soul was in the Avariel Pendant and my body carried out in a cart. As nuance tho, i don't agree bagging the crystal in any scenario since if there is a carrier like Avariel was; it theorically should be wore on a piece of frontal equipment with the only knowledge that whatever's in front of him could get beamed. Bagging the crystal after soul capture should be a ignored act since... you technically indirectly beg the GM to Hit your equipment.  Lets put this the other way around, we fight a humanoid that uses Magic Jar and bags you right after ?  I...rater ave a video game chance of Sunder me for Sunder for thee instead of: Sunder target: Bag   . Basically if it we CAN try to treat this spell as standard-ass as possible , it's the sort of creativity i/you do not want to pass on to the GM using it. I also ave my own question about...  Acid testing sorcerer spaming's extent with Magic Jar What ? i got... 3 cast... lets see 1: My soul goes into X-1 , X-1 goes into Crystal-A 2: I recast majic Jar from X1's to crystal B , My soul goes into X-2 3:From X-2 i take Crystal-C and recast magic Jar to wear X-3 I believe it makes a trail of 1 Sid and 2 corpse on the ground.... (Where X is the number of Chimera you own. XD) I fight as X-3 and die, i go back in Crystal C, If i fail to Beam the guy that kill me , i return to awake as X-2... Holy Sheizenberg !   I just turned into a Castlevania Boss Rush !! Furthermore:  What if... I beam as X-3 into Crystal-A...  lol ?  that means X-1 wake up as X-3 right while i'm in Crystal-A, right??
I'm asking cause then we can kidnap teleport people against their will. and limars not above making a cheap lab in the depths of the stonefare for sidsipi to do unethical experiments outside of the sight of the wayfinders. preferable on Nerulian priests. or that one noble  and his guards in Kentwig who I passed on killing becauses limar was in doubt after murdering civvies. -is it a evil act to punish evil people in very horrible ways?
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Oh you mean a new identity and a clean slate?  hehe IMO, its Inquisitory (LN Bl:Evil)    since Eye for Eye is a bit misguided. There is a differece between a Sacred Point (good) and Sanctified point (Sacred)  to account too... Is Avariel Good   or  Sacred  (Is he using Exalted Deeds) ? May not appear much but anyone using Vile Darn or Exalted Dee ave lower and upper player views than the average alignment. The anti-torture redemption of Sanctiomonious exalted people are Affliction negative status and a Psychology check flavour. (Exa D. Book source) What does a PHB Paladin as?:  The written code of conduct of is order ... what i mean is: A non exalted good paladin character does not ave many dictated means or the spells for saving someone's soul . All and All , i've already asked. Coming from Chinara, Kraggan and Hamanap whom saw me treat Albius,  Torture is very Illegal in this place but are for prisoner testing IF they do not suffer:  It one of my Quest in journal: The Sumbioku flower in Xank's region hold the most potent pain-killer on the surface , it's a dangerous venture in a more Xenophobic land for Sid so i never pressed it.  But yeah, synthetizing this Quest Item is part of the Keys i need to even GET to a operational Lab.   
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Limar's question is a little complex, but the short answer is that an object is treated as an object even if it has a soul trapped inside it. The longer answer is that the magic jar  is an object because the soul within has no direct way to interact with the world. An imprisoned soul is effectively unconscious, with no sense of anything until released. Even the caster's soul, while not inside a creature's body, is only able to interact with reality through the very narrow and specific senses and possession ability the spell grants, and in every other way is utterly helpless .  Compare this to, say, a magical intelligent sword. While also technically a soul trapped in an object, intelligent weapons have agency: they can speak, activate their special abilities, struggle for dominance with their wielder, and even influence their motion to some extent. They're more like very limited constructs than objects (though even normal magic items can make saving throws because of the soul fragments imbued into them, so the line can be blurry). Also, since unconscious creatures are considered willing, there are many far easier ways to kidnap people with teleport . :P To clarify for Cid, as a DM I take my own perspective as a person playing the game totally out of the equation when making NPC decisions. Which is to say, NPCs will do things that would make sense to them in that situation based on the knowledge they have and their personalities, values, goals, and judgment. NPCs can absolutely attack your bags or gear at any time, and will do so if they have better reasons to do that than to do anything else. Various NPCs have done it at various points throughout the campaign. Even if you begged me as DM directly to have them do so, they won't unless it would make sense for them to, because that would be stupid. :P It's the NPC in the gameworld, not me. I'm going to rule that you can't cast magic jar  while your previous magic jar  spell is ongoing. You have to end the spell to cast it a second time. I had to think a lot about this one, but the spell wording specifies that it leaves your body  lifeless and ends when you return to your body, so I'm interpreting that to mean you have to be in your own body to cast it (and if you're back in your own body, the spell has ended). Torture and especially cruel punishments are generally evil. Morally good punishments are things are community service or job training (like Avariel sending that cattle rustler to be trained as an acolyte of Heironeous), while morally neutral ones are eye for an eye stuff. Good is about protecting people and evil is about hurting people; punishing people evil people in very horrible ways doesn't do much to protect anyone, but it does hurt those people a lot, so it's evil. Avariel's +1 "book" is a house rule we worked out together to allow him to convert his half-celestial level adjustment into racial hit dice. Class-wise, he's a regular paladin. The current policy of the Guild is that humanoid testing at the Waypoint can only be performed on willing subjects. And right now, Sid is prohibited even from that until Leoavor signs off on him. Just to be totally clear OOC, the  sonbiaku  ("Pale Light of Tomorrow" in Nawatl, or "second dawn" in  Nahuatl) flower that grows in the jungles of the Omar Peninsula ( kind of the same country as Xankoris is from, depending on whom you ask, but pretty far and totally different culture and biome) is not  a painkiller in any way. It contains a powerful awareness-spectrum narcotic that induces intense but confusing prophetic visions, which require many years of training to properly interpret.
I don't know if saying someone is willing because they are unconscious is going to hold up in court Max.    -at least now I dont need to involve sidisaspi in my schemes. But what if My character begged that character?   I.e. limar to chronepsis's altar for the xth time "Please send me back in time to the day that temporal storm stole a whole day from me, It'll be funny I promise."  "its my time to do with what I want give it to me."     - lowkey Demanding is how dragons beg for something otherwise they'd just take it. So the chaotic way would be to reward them for their transgressions.      - I don't think that is sustainable but chaos never is.  Can I institute a new rule in the stonefare that low punishment crimes like thievery can request to be hit with the rod of wonders instead of loosing a hand or thumb.  they might live and keep their digits , outright die, or even get a little rich.            
Only in the Unseelie Court. ;) Begging the gods is  basically how clerics get their spells... ...but time travel might be a bit much to ask. On the ethical axis, lawful punishments tend to be very consistent across time and sometimes even across rank, while chaotic ones are very inconsistent. "Failing upward" is indeed a very chaotic punishment. That would be an interesting law, and not without precedent; Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Lore, and Profession (justicier) apply, to see what you might know of the Longinus State of Nolaria . Chaotic criminals would probably be likely to roll the dice. Do you want to enact it?
Time travel gets you the Inevitables ( Lawful outsiders) on yer tail ...would not recommend unless you are immortal or a planar outsider yourself just to ave a spawn point.   I've toyed with it in my old campaign and unless you plan to get infinity bounty hunters on you, i suggest other courses of action. These guys work under Hebdomabs of the hightess heaven , so no, you don't just fight the One: Primus , you fight a multiversal constant. UNLESS...lol you get permission ! Of course. XD Fun fact, when you get to these territories: There are places you can actually legit vote for multiverse changes to be enacted as universal laws.
I figured something like the best way to possess a near Will proof creature is in it's sleep , comboed probably with the nightmare spell for best results,  i guess willing is even better than -10 in that regard...lol .   NB: Nate stands opposed to PTP possession and on this regard goes over it.  I specifically named Avariel because there is only one Justifier in town to pass judgement , i would certainly would've never asked if it was a NPC or a jury. *The idea came to me to possess the Justifier, not Nate because he's Avariel . Plus if i do this: Like a Tell-Tale game: Will remember it ☠️🐍
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if a bunch of hot air can do it, it can't be that big of and ask. knowledge nobility 18 Yes, but frame it ambiguously enough that I can literally bludgeon them with the rod of wonders if the mood strikes. or I want to spare some kid from being dust. A third inevitable? oh nooooooo.
Max said: Good is about protecting people and evil is about hurting people; punishing people evil people in very horrible ways doesn't do much to protect anyone, but it does hurt those people a lot, so it's evil. Good is about helping people, not just protecting them. There's a sort of sick satisfaction in seeing some evil bastard get comeuppance, which might be something people mistake for helping the victims when they burn an accused criminal at the stake (just ask Twitter, lol). But yeah, Avariel definitely errs on the side of letting he who is without sin throw the first stone, for reasons that are obvious to me and probably less obvious to those who weren't here for the raids on the caves that happened long enough ago IRL for me to have a mid-life crisis even though I'm not even 30 yet. Like, when I joined this game I was younger than my character and now I'm older than he is, and it's still the same character lol. That would be nuts even if we hadn't timeskipped multiple years in-game. ...anyway.
Cedric D. said: Time travel gets you the Inevitables ( Lawful outsiders) on yer tail You guys are at the level range now where inevitables become a problem. I've already had a couple of them tasked to come for PCs, and have plans for more. Josh said: knowledge nobility 18 Yes, but frame it ambiguously enough that I can literally bludgeon them with the rod of wonders if the mood strikes. or I want to spare some kid from being dust. Nolaria is famed for its gigantic labyrinthine prison, located beneath the capital city of Mazen-Ki . The labyrinth serves as both prison and trial by battle, as it is littered with resetting traps and roaming unintelligent monsters (restocked periodically from trapdoors). There are also stray weapons, shields, spell scrolls, and potions, which lucky prisoners can use to arm themselves. After a brief hearing to determine if there is significant evidence, anyone accused of a crime in Nolaria is sentenced to the labyrinth for judgment. However, those accused of minor crimes are given weapons, shields, armor, or other equipment (or allowed to keep their own) as a handicap, depending on the severity of the accusations. For example, someone accused of petty theft might be given an axe, a shield, and leathern armor; someone accused of rape might be given only a dagger or spear; someone accused of murder would be sent in with only the clothes on their back. All prisoners are dropped in through one of a few dozen trapdoors (the same ones used to release monsters into the labyrinth) from guardposts around the capital, but there is only one exit (guarded to make sure no monsters wander out). Any prisoner who reaches the exit alive is judged to have proven their innocence, and is released to freedom.  Your Minister of Internal Security, Kal, will spread the word. Nate S. said: Max said: Good is about protecting people and evil is about hurting people; punishing people evil people in very horrible ways doesn't do much to protect anyone, but it does hurt those people a lot, so it's evil. Good is about helping people, not just protecting them. There's a sort of sick satisfaction in seeing some evil bastard get comeuppance, which might be something people mistake for helping the victims when they burn an accused criminal at the stake (just ask Twitter, lol).  Very true, good is also about helping people. Though you could consider helping to be a kind of protection, in the sense of protecting people from unfortunate circumstances too, rather than just from bad actors. 
GM said : ^I'm going to rule that you can't cast magic jar  while your previous magic jar  spell is ongoing. You have to end the spell to cast it a second time. I had to think a lot about this one, but the spell wording specifies that it leaves your body  lifeless and ends when you return to your body, so I'm interpreting that to mean you have to be in your own body to cast it (and if you're back in your own body, the spell has ended).^ Fine by me, i just HAD to do the acid test on paper with you guys just to show how coocoo Magic jar could get .In baldurs gate 2: Black Pits 2: One of the Mage trapped in the Arena does do a targeted specific legit soul switch; He Quotes the spell: *Soul transference*. (a Mc-Guffin you may never get as a scroll for your character. There are A LOT of spells in BG2 but Magic Jar was never included, was *Soul Transference* Quote a dub of Magic Jar from the Devs ? Or was it it's own thing ? Baldurs gate is Ultra-legit from-Lore had it be a second edition spell.  If you played Black Pits 2 and know what i'm talking about: When you finally talk with Dulf Finsterbart he will tell you that he knows the Drow Mage Bannor . He will be willing to produce a script roll for you in order to take over Bannor's role in the strong Adamantite Golem (soul transfer/spirit transfer: the soul of one of your Mages and Bannor's soul will exchange their places!). Instead of Dulf letting this produce for you you address to the Wild Mage Gerrold Dunkelbold who does it for less money.
From what i understood, Banner the Drow Switched is Soul into the Adaman Golem and from the Banner Golem to the Player OR Alternativelly , a Wild mage called Gerrold can do it. To me, it smells awfully as if the Million dollar gollem act AS a crystal itself, just because of it's vallues, furthermore, this F. can cast as the Golem just as Iile Magic Jar allows casting... ^    -Lemme know what you think i'm very currious to know on how you interpret ^Soul Transference^ 
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How do they handle repeat offenders? who just go in and get stronger each time they come out? or are those the people who run the city? I wonder which player characters are being hunted by Inevitables. my moneys on Avariel he has had plenty of time to complete his mandated work (prophecy) and has been instead wasting time trying to resurrect some half dragon guy?
Max said: Very true, good is also about helping people. Though you could consider helping to be a kind of protection, in the sense of protecting people from unfortunate circumstances too, rather than just from bad actors.  I guess that's another way to put it. At the end of the day it's semantics Josh said: I wonder which player characters are being hunted by Inevitables. my moneys on Avariel he has had plenty of time to complete his mandated work (prophecy) and has been instead wasting time trying to resurrect some half dragon guy? The prophecy is not something anyone's sure of. Also, the timeframe tends to be something you can't force with that sort of thing, where it starts when it's meant to or something along those lines
Using a crystal golem as a  magic jar  is so cool that I might just allow it as a stretch to the rules. Josh said: How do they handle repeat offenders? who just go in and get stronger each time they come out? or are those the people who run the city? Repeat offenders get a worse starting setup each time, though the escape rate is already very low.
Golems hops or not...  The spell did allow Banner the Drow to ^Beam^ the player to wear the Adamantite Golem while Banner wears the player... Furtermore, when you fight Adamantite Banner in the Pits itself: He can casts AS the Adamant Golem. (CR35) -The caviat is that Magic Jar is never named in the entire Baldur's Gate Saga  , and this Black Pits 2 Sidequest: The mage refers the deed as a  spell HE calls ^Soul Transference^ .  Of course i bet you interpret as much as me that it is Magic Jar since it does allow casting as what you wear....    I would like to believe D&D trully made a REAL bonnafied Body-switch spell called ^Soul Transference^. *Personally, I think it should be it's own thing... Max ,   i find appeal in a spell that purely does bodyswitch than a Magic Jar gray-line of so many undictated possibilities. A spell that you become me and i become you should not be as powerful as Magic Jar itself but still highter level... (I would almost see this spell in the lines of : A  forbidden 7-8ish, even 9 spell.    (Especially since the target is still given a functionality after and allows some kind of crude immortality.)  Plus anyone hit by the switch would never want to kill himself never to return to is body again... so its kinda superior to Magic Jar ..but not in term of functionality....   
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spell crafting is a thing, you can make spells.   regular magic jar is lvl 5, with some edits swapping bodies would mean you would not need the 100 gp gem focus to hold a soul -ripping someones soul out(against their will)  is still a pretty magical feat so it would probably still be level 5.   -if you add the caveat that both targets have to be wiling you could probably get it down to level 4.          - also means you could make it a touch spell.            - might be a personal spell where only you the caster can swap with a willing creature, good luck finding someone who wants that.    and then make a lesser version that does 1 min / level instead of 1 hour to get it too level 3. but why would you want to swap souls around when you can combine them to make boot legged gestalt characters. personally if you just want a good body for yourself I'd suggest working on a enhanced form of Alter self that would let you get the special qualities of the form you take. while also removing the race type limit. the inevitables are probably targeting sid.
Hahaha... what is Inevitable, is my silly speculations. Its a Magic Jar discussion Pole so i'm aving fun with it...   On the  matter, i don't really want anything other than to theorize the can and can-not do. It's not impossible i piss off Inevitable myself as there is a Type that is programmed to be ^kinda^ anti flesh-warp.  But they are more into the affairs of the Cosmic treats than anything , Sidsaspi is far from that compared to you two (I think)  ... Like IDK, Ering using is space powers of teleportation to the wrong place or a Draconic Royalty wishing time distortion.   Or lets just say, i'm ^under the radar^ and you 2 Wayfinders aren't , my future prestige class won't bring me much more than put me even more under it.    And depending witch judiciary branch it is; i hardly see Avariel responsible for getting any after him, ever...  
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the inevitable target is definitely me I'm just throwing smoke at others. they're probably going to attempt to stop Limars  ascension some time down the line. but I mean depending on how lawful neutral stupid you want to get Avariel does have some marks against him   -A lawful being born from a unlawful act.  (born out of wedlock) your parents will face a hefty fine in the halls of  Heironeous probably a decade of jail time.     - he's half celestial. so he does not belong in the heavens nor the material plane.  (section 1712 clause b paragraph 14 sentence 7 " A being may only belong to one plane of existence." since his parents did not appropriately sign, denominate his home plane on his birth certificate and properly submit it to office 21k (this one specializes in handling extra planar births through virgin mothers. oddly not used often.) he belongs nowhere, To the void with you birdman.      -now that i've had this in the back of my head all day, there probably isnt even a 21k office cause Virgins can't be mothers (unless you can mitosis) so that is another law his parents broke, probably with some divine magic. which also means that his angelic dad is not his  real dad cause he gets his divine spells from  Heironeous so the  spell that allows a virgin to be impregnated  is from Mr H.    so that makes the god the real father.  Avariel should be a demigod.    -my personal gripe is him being a paladin of the good Military god but not being in the Military proper.
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A Freaky Friday spell, huh? I'm surprised there isn't one in the Book of Erotic Fantasy.  Josh makes some good points about how to balance it, though it could definitely still be overpowered as-is. The caster's body having to stay nearby and being totally helpless is a feature, not a bug (as in, it's a huge drawback that balances the tremendous power of magic jar ). Premarital sex and bastardy being illegal is usually more of a lawful evil thing, using marriage as a bludgeon for control. Heironeous prohibits dishonesty and abuse in sexual and and romantic relationships, and encourages devoted marriages, but doesn't prohibit love or sex outside of them. He does discourage  paladins in particular from forming serious romantic relationships though, since they can result in divided loyalties. Dating a commoner, as Avariel is, is the safest choice. Qillathe is unlikely to ever put him at cross-purposes with his other duties, but she still gives him an outlet for the romantic and physical needs most living beings have. Avariel's mother did definitely lie to her very young son about where babies come from, though. Raviel had sex with her, that's how angels reproduce. :P The THM is more of a LN organization than a LG one. It's about maintaining human regal order and protecting human civilization in Terolus, but not protecting people in general (as seen in  Waterwend  during the Stone River War). A lot of Heironean paladins are members of His own military, though, as champions or soldiers for Heironean temples and churches, or members of chivalric orders like the Order of the Ironheart. Avariel just chose to soldier for the Wayfinders instead of one of those.
Gasp  oh my gods really?! (/s) My use of “virgin” technically relies on the fact that outsiders’ means of existing differ from material-native beings’ sufficiently to mean an act like copulation would have the sort of subtle mechanical differences that might lead people to mistake his mother for never having done it at all rather than just never with a mortal :p Also “that’s how angels reproduce” — I thought outsiders weren’t meant to have a universal well-defined time of birth because until they’re brought into the material plane they’re just as much concepts as they are beings. Outer planes have different physics because they’re as much concepts and ideas as they are places beings can inhabit, etc etc. Though I guess your world has more well-defined physics than the books provide for by default so idk. The whole idea is that GMs can make extensions to the game and it isn’t even really diverging from the base rules, and “defining how particles work” is an extension of that variety lol
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I tend to think of the D&D sourcebooks more as "tools for the DM to make a game with" rather than a set of complete rules for a game in and of themselves. So I both extend and diverge from them often, but I always try to make sure things in my campaigns work in an internally consistent way. So, it's more that outsiders and their home planes are more heavily and directly  influenced  by concepts. They're still physically real places, but most of them are so pregnant with aligned particles that they react and interact much more strongly with mental/emotional/magical influence. They also often have somewhat different local physics than the Material Plane. There are exceptions to this, of course, such as conceptuals--creatures that are like elementals, but are representations of abstract ideas rather than physical materials or objects (death elementals like Siwan are more properly categorized as conceptuals, for example). Souls also fall into this gray area, since they can generally only interact physically with lifeforce, but in the outer planes they can often manifest as metaphysical forces interacting with heavily-aligned material (a circumstance commonly referred to as "the afterlife"). Outsider is a vast and varied creature type. As a group, the most they have in common is a general sturdiness and talent for learning, a materialist nature, and being composed at least partially of the essence of the outer planes. Their reproductive methods are also, naturally, just as varied. Beings like mephits reproduce in weird elemental minglings, while salamanders asexually generate larvae. Slaadi have a very weird and convoluted reproductive cycle involving exoparasitism, and modrons are literally assembled in factories then programmed with personalities according to their duties. But angels and demons, for the most part, reproduce very similarly to humanoids, coupling sexually to fertilize eggs (which may be carried internally, as humans do, or laid externally, depending on the kind of female involved). Most angels and fiends (like dragons) are also extremely exofertile, able to cross-reproduce with virtually any other form of life. As you might expect, angels make sure the process itself is as pleasurable as possible for the other party, though their ethical alignment does affect how the relationship goes. Lawful angels like Raviel would be completely sure the other party knew what they were getting into and felt no coersion whatsoever, especially in the case of a male angel impregnating a mortal woman (since the consequences are far more significant for her). Chaotic angels of deities like Kord are more likely to hook up with a bunch of groupies at a feast and leave them each pregnant with a bag of gold on the nightstand, still trying to remember the name of that glowing guy they spent the night with (or in the case of female chaotic angels, leave with fraternal quintuplets from different fathers in their womb, while the mortal dads only get the amazing memories).  Fiends, naturally, take the opposite approach: they want their partners to suffer, and so make the process as bad as possible, usually in some way suited to their own particular brand of evil. They might make the act itself feel great, but ensure their partner feels deep shame from it afterwards; or mingle pain and pleasure during it; or make it painful and humiliating, but with an intensely pleasurable ending that leaves their partner craving more, like a drug; or simply provide a mediocre experience that leaves the mortal incubating a horrible extraplanar STD or a half-fiend embryo that'll eventually claw its way out. Sometimes they build torments around  the act rather than into it, like trading sexual services for increasing debt or devotion to evil, or using desire to lure mortals away from the things that bring them overall happiness into lives of misery. The dumb and strong ones will usually just force themselves on a victim/partner, often concluding with a violent death, mutilation, and consumption (in that order, if you're lucky). It also depends, again, a lot on the fiend's alignment: devils like very rule-oriented trickery and systemic or institutional abuse, while demons are into one-and-done type deals and go with the flow in the moment.
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Yep, Devils are one good thing in common with Angel, they respect multiversal constants . You ave way more change of aving those outsiders care for love or proficies of mortals. Mortal getting friends with a Demon is more in the likes of:  -Oh, you wear your 2nd edition protection from Evil and i can't target you, i respect that , lets mate now . (3rd edition nerfed Prot from : to elemental only can't target if i recall right, but it used to be a great spell to ave a free discussion/relationship with unlikely outsiders, i am sure 3rd ed made same thing-different name of the effect i can't think of a the moment) Comment about Erotic Fantasies: As much as the book is shun for being awkward AF without a full campaign of boys and girls crashing out the night playing D&D and sleeping on the floor like the good old times , it's one thing that came important out of reference is: Humans can ave children with everything , the other races are either impossible or spliced or magically messed with t'do it. ^Just wait till they find out who Sidsaspi's is going out with... ayayayyy.  Comment about Vile Darkness:  See Bestiality as evil as it is mentioned in both those books as not just with animals .  So... the whole Avariel Dad to Mortal Mom thing... IMO it's Borderline:Evil  (fractional but not entirely evil) , Oat broken out of love example Another Example: Zeus , Zeus is Good, cope with it...
got a answer for everything.  Whats the lore behind players?  whys Limar stuck with me on his shoulder.
Outsiders are definitely different , in some fundamental ways and some subtle ways, from the denizens of the Material Plane. For example: they're usually biologically immortal, but since they don't have immortal souls, they're actually more mortal than humans in a way. An angel will never wither and die of old age, but once they're slain, their soul is destroyed (usually) forever. This gives them a different perspective to mortals, who have a short physical lifespan but then an eternal lingering afterlife. There's also the environment to consider. Each Outer Plane (and for those with layers, each layer) has its own distinct tendencies that influence everything that goes on there, in contrast to the wild variety of the Material Plane. Depending on their perspective, different outsiders might think of "insiders" (as they call those from the Material Plane) as weak and foolish children or animals, noble savages, brave and adaptive explorers, struggling victims in need of help, or the chosen peoples of the gods. The BoEF is very useful for the pregnancy and breeding rules, yeah. The sex rules have also come in handy a few times, though I usually only bother with the most basic rolls for the social consequences. But then, a few rules is generally the most I take from any given splatbook. Breaking an oath would be chaotic, not evil; but Raviel (Avariel's dad) didn't break any oath. He made sure his mom knew what she was getting into, and only left because he had to. As for how players fit in, I actually do have something planned to touch on that down the road a ways... you'll have to wait and see. ;)
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I agree that it is obvious mega-chaotic BIG Chaos points to go Bestial ,  yes. but it should get a user BL: evil points wherever you are in the multiverse . Example:  Gratzz's Rules in Hell ...  What i mean is:  The stygma that it will entrail will usually lead to nothing fundamentally good ...  Yes Avariel is a good result as of any Asimar, but the amount of moral difficulty is life will give him for being different does not give something good. Doing it for Love, prophecy , sacrifice , hellish Obligations or simple derangement : It stands to give more cons than pros to the entourage and facilitate many many evil emotions: Thus why i would give per example: 2 chaos point and 0.5 corruption point to go against the system and make Avariel. For Sidsaspi's ongoing romance: i'd give 1 chaos and 0.3 corruption to the both of us :  Self-aware don't care attitude , very cute actually... but the stygma related to hit could get close ones or entire communities involved and disturb certain fragile tranquility...  Basically, Borderline could be translated to Gateway... Weed is a gateway to hard-drugs , does not means your 0.1 Chaos and 0.2 corruption for smoking it will make you full fledged  addict that's sell peoples personal stuff for it nor disallows you to go to heaven ; its just opening A door to Evil , not necessarily entering it.   A door left opened to others too i may had , some others following your footstep will enter it.  
We're getting VERY ooc now with knowledge, just to be clear, but it's an interesting conversation so I'll part the kimono more than usual... Raviel has a better opinion of mortals than many outsiders, and would never consider interbreeding with them comparable to bestiality. Though he didn't specifically intend to leave Maia with child, he wouldn't have been upset to learn of it (in fact, he doesn't actually know that Avariel is his natural son yet). His angelic blood is very pure and strong, so his children are almost always true half-celestials rather than aasimar; he sees their siring as a gift to the Material Plane, that they might bastions of goodness and order, bolts of Heironeous's lightning struck into a dark world. Being different can make their lives harder, but the great power his blood gives them also comes with many advantages. Heironeous is big on duty and power going hand-in-hand (hence why He makes more paladins than any other deity). He can only visit Oerth rarely, but he's very old so he's done so many times. He's also sired many such holy halfbreeds, and was the original celestial founder of House Arrinor--the House's sigil is Raviel's own personal sigil, and the first Lord Arrinor was also one of his sons long ago. The Beacon, the holy sword Avariel inherited from his adoptive father and now wields, was originally Raviel's too, given to that first Lord Arrinor to do great heroic deeds with, and passed down as an heirloom within the mortal family. That Avariel was taken in by the very House his natural father founded after he was orphaned could be a coincidence, or it could be fate at work. There are still some important secrets around that that I won't be revealing yet, even ooc. ;)
Does this mean I'm allowed to break the fourth wall? I assume Celestials don't see a issue with a Millennium sized age gap between lovers.     -5000 with 9000 = w/e     -2,000 with 30= concern. making it sound like this guy treats Oerth as a Brothel and only visits to fuck.  If Avariel has his name Hiskel could potentially summon him with some truenaming research.
This thread has gotten more derailed than an actual Norfolk Southern train. That's legally defensible, by the way , especially since the disasters were 100% their fault for cutting costs... But anyway.
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Josh said: Does this mean I'm allowed to break the fourth wall? If you want to share ooc background lore about Limar and Hiskel, feel free. :P Josh said: I assume Celestials don't see a issue with a Millennium sized age gap between lovers.     -5000 with 9000 = w/e     -2,000 with 30= concern. In the real world, humans take an absolute perspective on age gaps, since almost everyone ages at the same rate. But when some races age slower than others (like elves and dwarves vs humans and orcs), and some races age to maturity then basically stabilize forever (like angels and demons), interracial relationships almost always necessitate a relative perspective on age gaps instead. After all, a 20 year-old human dating a 20 year-old elf would be a child molester. But a 20 year-old human with a 130 year-old elf is a relationship between two people of roughly equal maturity. For races that more or less stop aging, like angels, once they reach adulthood any adult partner is essentially their romantic equal. Raviel isn't really any more mature now than he was millennia ago. Josh said: making it sound like this guy treats Oerth as a Brothel and only visits to fuck.  That's partly because I'm keeping the other important stuff he's done secret for now, partly because his halfbreed children have such a big effect on mortal history (and this particular campaign), and partly because he's just so handsome and heroic and kind and trustworthy that any time he visits Oerth people are falling over themselves to flirt with him (kind of like Anglishwomen eagerly being 'kidnapped' by the clean, strong, egalitarian Norsemen vikings). When he met Maia, he was actually visiting to check in on House Arrinor (that's why Avariel was born in the same city where he was later adopted).
AAAaaah the controversies of Magic Jar... bless em.   From possession to the good lord visiting earth... This whole tread is a gateway...lol But fact proves my point that even tho all this talk is not evil at all, you just knows you are dangling juuust beside the precipice.  This^ is exacly why i suggest to had fractional Corruption beside the chaos produced. I don't think the 4 of us a that one guy who's mind is extremelly influencible and we are all fully grown intelligent adults sound enough to speak about the shade of grey in a subject of a game very dear to us. Me? just being able and allowed to post a tread with Magic jar and PTP is like god giving me a gift of aving found my group after all these years. I am pretty sure you know me by now as a lover of controversial and philosophical topics . To receive the wisdom, you need to be somewhere else than zero on the Fck-around/find-out scale.
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you know what sure, everything you see in their bio is all there is to their back stories.  I don't want to be stuck with scenarios of He would'nt do that because of this thing or she would do it because of that thing. (Even though I'm stuck with those anyway from in game things) - keeping it vague let me swap things around to make sense. Like giving limar actual physical deformities, he couldnt fly till level 3 so something had to be wrong with a wing. and if something that big was wrong other smaller things had to be messed up too.  enjoy the preview, we still got 2 years before he gets his mithril armor. "Born wonky,  (missing finger on wing) couldnt fly. minor physical deformities, flat alligator snout  (usually only noticed by other green dragons) Extra fins. " -It also leaves room for Max to mess around. Like relatively recently Limar did a Dream ritual in th e Mausoleum to go visit grandfather Chronepsis for some answers, it went wrong and he ended up visiting somewhere more chaotic. Which was cool, an then I remembered a long time ago a short exchange with max about Limar having a chaotic ancestor to explain him being born wonky.  So now I gotta ask is Eldanoth Limars grandfather on the other side of the family? Limar is young enough that the game should be considered his back story . and with Hiskel I'll take the approach of her coming to the catacombs to leave her past behind and reinvent herself. ( but you dont get to be high level and have a artifact of the lich king with out something happening back then.)   - it is purely  coincidental the that her true name Fuzrabitel (Fuze, Ra, Bit, El) can be cut down to Fuze Bit (short fuze) which I like cause I need her in a state of ready to burn anything whenever I want something crispy.   and thats the back stories   vague  coincidental  Max tinkering. I also flip coins for when I cant decide on something like this, got a 1 so Limar will not develop a Crush on Serassillia. Friendship all the way.       -thats not to  say it can not happen(only Siths deal in absolutes) , she could make it develop, But I would have to question her Judgement if she found Limar attractive, or if she was doing it on Jorvaskors orders to get Limar under wraps.     - That explains the age gap, but what about the level gap? A 18 angel with a 1 commoner? absolutely  scandalous behavior. 
The only comparaison i can make of Avariel is with Raya Mantlemorn .&nbsp; &nbsp;This human turned Celestial just by picking up the sword of Zariel. I would not see why Raya 's childrens ends up aving a chance looking like Avariel.&nbsp; And yes: In her Bio Race is:: Human / Celestial&nbsp; <a href="https://codenameentertainment.com/images/blog/DnD/2021/Blog_Reya.gif" rel="nofollow">https://codenameentertainment.com/images/blog/DnD/2021/Blog_Reya.gif</a>
Josh said: &nbsp;So now I gotta ask is&nbsp;Eldanoth Limars grandfather on the other side of the family? Eheheh. I'll say that it wasn't by accident &nbsp;that Limar ended up in Eldanoth's realm, nor is it likely to be the last time he finds himself there. Josh said: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -thats not to&nbsp; say it can not happen(only Siths deal in absolutes) , she could make it develop, But I would have to question her Judgement if she found Limar attractive, or if she was doing it on Jorvaskors orders to get Limar under wraps. - That explains the age gap, but what about the level gap? A 18 angel with a 1 commoner? absolutely&nbsp; scandalous behavior.&nbsp; Serasilia's a bit young for serious romance herself, but she's definitely at the age where she gets crushes. I can't see her developing any kind of attraction to Limar though, given that he's basically a little kid by dragon standards, and she's no Padmé Amidala. :P Power differentials also necessarily work a bit differently in a setting with such a huge range of inherent power and &nbsp;objective morality. Being a physical representation of goodness and order, Raviel can be trusted completely to never take advantage of his great personal power, just as Avariel can with Qillathe (golden apple didn't fall far from the tree on that one, huh?) In the same way, for example, Zorall could be relied upon to usually &nbsp;take advantage of the power differentials with his "wives", being evil. Not always , as he was chaotic too--for example, some of his wives actually liked the power and wealth that came with his favor, so long as they pleased him and gave him strong children (like Genvissa and Lazira's mother, in the other campaign).
@josh , dont press yourself too much in the deformities part ; i ave grafts capacities to replace anything you lose and more. I just dont ave the setup yet.&nbsp;&nbsp; With enough spelljammers alien teck i could turn you into Meca-Limar and jetison you through space. XD Of course i would make Sidsaspious failsafes so nothing bad appends to me tho.
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Where is my free Lore blorb? I thought we established that normal rules never apply to Limar,&nbsp; He's only 10k xp from being young 16-25. and another 70k to&nbsp; being juvenile 26- 50. Thanks but Mecha Lich Limar isnt scheduled for another forty thousand years.
Josh said: Where is my free Lore blorb? You gotta give me more to work with. :P I can build off specifics, but I don't want to just write in your backstories whole cloth. Limar's definitely an exception to the normal dragon aging rules, but it's more that he's just growing without growing up . (reminds me of one of my favorite MtG card flavor texts ) He started as a runt, so perhaps he's a late bloomer? Or maybe eating all that treasure is accelerating his physical growth... or, it could be the divine influence of all the draconic dieties he's been courting the favor of. In any case, just because he's bigger and stronger doesn't mean he's any older than his actual age. Wayyyyyy more than 40000 years. The Steam Age won't even begin for another 138000~ years. Spelljammers (flying ships that can traverse the Phlogiston between the Crystal Spheres ) have been around for a while, they just run on magic. That's how stuff gets between 'settings'. For example, Hamil, one of the current Red King's loyal comrades and now the commander of his Bowhery garrison , is a warforged fighter from the world of Eberron , who came to Greyhawk from another Crystal Sphere aboard a spelljammer.
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making stuff up feels rude, but I guess thats the whole game. &nbsp;a bit late in the game to be changing fundamental stuff, here we go anyways for Limar. 1. his mom is much kinder than she lets on. She didnt have the heart to put down the deformed wyrmling and was planning on keeping him around much longer but he when broke something in her hoard she told him to leave and he took that literally. Heart breaking stuff and lots of lonely sad nights for Kalemne. 2. While swimming down river (much safer for a land bound dragon) he came across a sunken ship, worn down with time and rot to reveal a hidden compartment that contained a large Lead chest that gave Limar Head aches. welded shut and unable to lift it he quickly moved on. whats in the box? 3. When he arrived at the stonefare, he ran into a outpost first where A nice kobold named Basku gave him directions to the temple. Hows basku doing these days? 4. also everybody is related to limar. Iktharlyep is his estranged counsin. Astartes his 17 times removed aunt. the coiled lady his sister from another mother. Heimar the Ice addicted nephew. Shurreon, secretly a green dragon in disguise is his father. We don't talk about Carnasi.&nbsp; for Hiskel.&nbsp; 1. in her younger days she ran with the evilest crew. used to be a pyromaniac sorcerer. 2. they all died when they found the lexicon. except unfortunately Hiskel who had her truename rewritten and since then was compelled to go to the catacombs. (thankfully tellaj is dead and can never make use of this sleeper agent.) 3. Her sorcerous bloodline comes from the deep Dragon ZZuzil Arsenal every year a new name, a new mask. 1. barely one remembers 10 years ago when they grey masked bard "monotone" traveled the taverns and inns of Strongtown and kentwig singing sad songs and telling gallows humour jokes while listing to commoners complain of their local nobles. 2. The Leaky cloud&nbsp; Tavern in Skyshroud still bans Masks to this day. no further context. I'll have to get him a new code name an masked for the next year in game, especially since he'll be working for the wayfinders. maybe some kind of compass or map based one. details have been added. lore was promised. personally I like the idea of him getting some kind of Chrono cancer from the temporal storm and him Literally just aging 50x faster. &nbsp; I just think a 20 year old dragon with the body of a ancient wyrm and less than a couple years left would make for some fun chaos. &nbsp; &nbsp; - one of his dragon gods will probably fix it before then though. I dont think the age matters when you got to go back in time to terminate some other time travelers trying to kill your younger self.
Aight gimme a second I'mma go back in time to kill the guy that discovered time travel and convince everyone that he died because he time traveled so nobody ever tries it again because they think it will kill them. What do you mean, "paradox"?&nbsp; OK in all seriousness having time travel can be messy for...obvious reasons? That's not to say it can't work though. I've seen some pretty great answers to the whole time paradox question, ranging from the most realistic (that time travel only works in the forward direction and is actually just a fancy way to say someone was moving so fast that they aged two minutes and wound up a hundred years in the future — real thing that's theoretically possible with real-world physics) to the most handwavey (split timelines, read-only pasts, etc). My favorite of these is probably the one used by the Webtoon&nbsp; The Last Dimension &nbsp;where the past is immutable insofar as it's been observed by sentient beings that aren't themselves time travelers — that is, you aren't creating a paradox if nobody notices you changed anything. That leads to fun shenanigans where you can time travel with every person who directly observed something and in doing so open the door to changing it. That Webtoon also has some very interesting takes on causality...you get folks who accidentally travel into the past meeting past versions of people they knew in the future and then getting flashbacks (flash-forwards?) to the future version of that person mentioning they met a time traveler once. Lots of fun stuff.