GM for hire!

anyone know if it is against TOS or R20 CoC to hire out as a paid compensated GM (i looked but couldnt find anything)? LFGm tool and LFGm Forum are flooded with "Looking for GM" these last few days. i know R20 was looking to hire an in house GM, but wasnt sure if they permitted Mercing for pizza n bear. if not, pizza and bear deleiveries are cool rght? if yes... that sux, i was looking forward to pizza n bear.

<a href="https://wiki.roll20.net/Terms_of_Service_and_Priva" rel="nofollow">https://wiki.roll20.net/Terms_of_Service_and_Priva</a>... Play Nice Clauses Use of Roll20 You agree that you shall not: .... .... Market any goods or services for any business purpose (including advertising and making offers to buy or sell goods or services), unless specifically allowed to do so by Orr Group.

About a year ago ago there was a series of GMs advertising for-pay campaigns. It generated some heated... "discussion". The GMs weren't clamped down on, but rather the people starting flame wars about it in their LFG threads were. It's naturally going to be more difficult to get players interested in playing your campaign if you're asking for monetary compensation, but it's not impossible. Out of curiosity I joined one of these for-pay campaigns with a rate of $5/session, and have enjoyed it immensely.

It's allowed.

seriously tho, have you seen the LFG threads and LFG tool omg sooo many "plz mr Dm play wif me" threads and games posted,,, i thot to myself "damn, if i did something like this, id never run out of beer again" HoneyBadger said: It's allowed. thinking about it some more, i dont think attempting this would be a good thing. like Brian explains, it sounds like a touchy subject, must tread carefully. i would feel like AIG or Bank of America... "should we sell insurance on homeloans to investors?"

Meh. If I had the time and inclination, I'd set up a pay to play campaign.

In my experience asking for tips is generally less frowned upon way of getting monetary compensation. A game store I used to play at(I am unfortunately no longer in the area) had an unspoken rule of sorts that the players of a game should pitch in enough to offset expenses(e.g. purchasing published adventures) and for particularly good GM's to be tipped more. If I get to the end of a session and think a gm was particularly good I still throw in some cash as i know the amount of work that goes into it(I primarily gm now, though not nearly well enough to deserve money for it)

Nibrodooh said: In my experience asking for tips is generally less frowned upon way of getting monetary compensation. A game store I used to play at(I am unfortunately no longer in the area) had an unspoken rule of sorts that the players of a game should pitch in enough to offset expenses(e.g. purchasing published adventures) and for particularly good GM's to be tipped more. If I get to the end of a session and think a gm was particularly good I still throw in some cash as i know the amount of work that goes into it(I primarily gm now, though not nearly well enough to deserve money for it) I was going to answer sooner... but this right here hits a point far better than what I typed out last night then deleted. If a pay-to-play system was set up or was optional, so many things on the technical side would and could go wrong. Maybe an on-site credit system for buying tokens and modules would be a better system, prevents money leaving the site and prevents "gold farmer" type deals. My personal concerns would lead to the bad, the ass and the exploiter. Not all GM's are good at it and not all care. This could make matters worse for the GM's who might want to do their "job" the best they can, are quite good at it, but lack the funding for decent tokens etc. - they might simply need a mentor sub (which we can already gift) that the system could add to. Whilst I like to thank my GM's for their time, their efforts... a forced paying system could only be exploited in my eyes; or even the optional payment system - as some would enforce the idea of "you play, you pay, or I kick you" mentality. I know there's good to it, but I can only see the negative wall over the positive.

I currently only GM for a close family group, we are reliving our youth... but i put a LOT of work into it. Many hours each week building up to the session, so i could totally see why payment could be an option. I GM for the love of the game, getting to tell a story that grows organically despite having a set conclusion in mind. That all being said, i've purchased token sets, books, spell cards etc to make my life easier and some way of recouping those losses seems only fair. At the very least it would be reasonable to 'request' donations of mentor status to enhance your campaigns for all concerned. In summary, i'm not against pay-to-play, i agree with the above about tip-if-enjoyed but i don't think i'd ever expect payment, just be pleased if it turned up one day ;) (still waiting on my family members to realise they could help me out a bit lol)

The "official stance" from Roll20 is this, we are okay with it but we don't officially support it so it's strictly between the GM and players to figure it out.

i feel like the players should buy the dm mentor status :)

interesting idea.

Brandon C. said: i feel like the players should buy the dm mentor status :) Ziechael said: I currently only GM for a close family group, we are reliving our youth... but i put a LOT of work into it. Many hours each week building up to the session, so i could totally see why payment could be an option. (compensated with free pizza n bear is the way to go imo) &lt;snip&gt; That all being said, i've purchased token sets, books, spell cards etc to make my life easier and some way of recouping those losses seems only fair. (thats just part of the hobby that we both love as players and DM's, and yes best way would be for the group to gather materials together) &lt;snip again&gt; In summary, i'm not against pay-to-play, i agree with the above about tip-if-enjoyed but i don't think i'd ever expect payment, just be pleased if it turned up one day ;) ( i think i am against charging people money, but designating soem one different each week to buy the GM pizza n bear is acceptable) Nibrodooh said: In my experience asking for tips is generally less frowned upon way of getting monetary compensation. A game store I used to play at(I am unfortunately no longer in the area) had an unspoken rule of sorts that the players of a game should pitch in enough to offset expenses(e.g. purchasing published adventures) and for particularly good GM's to be tipped more. If I get to the end of a session and think a gm was particularly good I still throw in some cash as i know the amount of work that goes into it(I primarily gm now, though not nearly well enough to deserve money for it) (have you seen some of the ones in LFGm? map squares r retangles, battel maps have tokens on them because the GM just grabbed it off of google.) i was thinking more along the lines of "ok, so who is buying the pizza and bear this week" asking for money is such a douchie idea in my opinion. (looking at my OP, i can see why people thot i was talking about money, im gunna edit it (i suck at expressing my ideas) but yeah, we few... we mighty few... DM's put a lot of effort into putting forth a good session, and sadly the LFGm Tool crowd seem to expect us to DM their way, on our time, like they are entitled to be able to play just because they made an R20 account. almost to the point it feels like some of them expect us to go above an beyond to entertain them.

Sounds like some of these problems could be fixed. 1. A rating/voteing system so players know how good a GM is. 2. Maybe Exchange goods/services like tokens and maps 3. PayPal option. 4.Or roll20 trade marketplace tokens for pro GM sessions.

( I want to game with players that will buy me a bear... =D ) No one complains when the movie theater asks the viewers to compensate the theater $15 for the 1.5 hours of entertainment. Similarly, no one that goes to see a movie is shocked that they would be charged for the entertainment they receive for 1.5 hours. Certainly, Pay-to-play is not that common in the RPG world, but that's likely because it started as a pastime between friends. I personally wouldn't expect my friends to want me to pay to play a game with them, but I've also paid for online subscriptions for friends running games, or paid for gaming books, dice (I have a blind player/gm, regular dice don't work for him!), or even video games I want to play with friends. However, with the advent of online VTTs, the RPG world is entering a new era where your experience is not limited to what you can get out of your friends. If you consider, it's actually fairly arrogant for a player to expect someone they don't know to provide that entertainment for them with no compensation. On the other side, having players that Pay-to-Play means you have players that are actually invested, quite literally. With the right GM, that would be a huge selling point (again, literally!) for a serious player. $5 a session, prepaid by at least 2 sessions and you have a pretty stable formula for a game that is unlikely to experience some of the most frustrating problems from a GM's perspective, and probably from a player perspective as well. It's certainly a commitment on both sides and everyone would need to be clear on expectations up front, but I think it's a very workable and awesome direction for our industry to move into. After all, we already have one professional GM in our midsts (and Alan H. is super excited about it!), it would be awesome to see more. Who wouldn't want to play The Dresden Files with Jim Butcher, or A Song of Ice and Fire with George R. R. Martin (spoiler: your character will die a horrible death!), or The Queen's Thief with Megan Whalen Turner? Step one in that direction is showing that Pay-to-Play is viable on the small scale, so we can see it on the large scale. Anyway, that's just what I think. =D

Avacyn said: The "official stance" from Roll20 is this, we are okay with it but we don't officially support it so it's strictly between the GM and players to figure it out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think hes asking if its possible to do. However, if its okay to post interest for such a thing on the forums? I understand that if someone wants to pay you, being able to play that game is okay on roll20, the concerned issue (at least I've had before) is being able to directly say that in the LFP listing/Forum.

Boomstyk Johnson said: Sounds like some of these problems could be fixed. 1. A rating/voteing system so players know how good a GM is. 2. Maybe Exchange goods/services like tokens and maps 3. PayPal option. 4.Or roll20 trade marketplace tokens for pro GM sessions. 1. has been tried befor ei believe, but died due to "free to register" multiple account holders gaming the system. 2. we gift subs, but i dont think we can gift maps / tokens / campaigns form the market place (dont quote, i dont know period).. if we cant, this needs to be fixed asap. if we can, more people should be informed of it. 3. if allowed, definitely needed, that way hired GM's can commission artists to make better maps than mine (i am not an artist, or Gfx designer, i googled tutorials on gimp and my example took me 4 hours the day before yesterday due to my inexperience... PS i hope to god this looks like a waterfall on a streem between three hills, if it doesnt please for the love of god tell me how i can fix it.) 4. roll20 only gift cards or redemption codes for the market place should be a no-brain-er at this point anyway.

Meldebious(Casey) said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think hes asking if its possible to do. However, if its okay to post interest for such a thing on the forums? I understand that if someone wants to pay you, being able to play that game is okay on roll20, the concerned issue (at least I've had before) is being able to directly say that in the LFP listing/Forum. The original poster : Iskoaya said: anyone know if it is against TOS or R20 CoC to hire out as a paid compensated GM (i looked but couldnt find anything)? LFGm tool and LFGm Forum are flooded with "Looking for GM" these last few days. Avacyn was answering that question with an official response. Avacyn said: The "official stance" from Roll20 is this, we are okay with it but we don't officially support it so it's strictly between the GM and players to figure it out. Everything else in this thread was just you all discussing the merits of it. If you wish to have a clarification on her statement then please email the devs at <a href="mailto:team@roll20.com" rel="nofollow">team@roll20.com</a> with your question.

Boomstyk Johnson said: Sounds like some of these problems could be fixed. 1. A rating/voteing system so players know how good a GM is. 2. Maybe Exchange goods/services like tokens and maps 3. PayPal option. 4.Or roll20 trade marketplace tokens for pro GM sessions. 1. It has been discussed in the forums many different times but flaws have been pointed out each time by various members of the site. You can find them by using the keyword search on the main forum page. 2. & 3. : long term project listed in the suggestion forums 4. Make a suggestion or add it to one that is similar to what you are looking for (referring back to long term project)

Just to run it through, Roll 20 will oppose it, there could be issues for them, also I ran D&D games back about 35 years ago for a fee, it wasn't worth my time, by the time I wrote everything, prepared handouts & characters, monsters, NPCs... I made about $3/hour. That was 30+ years ago and it wasn't worth my time then. Using any copyrighted material would be a violation of the copyright, so it would all have to be self produced, including the artwork. I am betting you would come in at under $1/hour now.

The Aaron said: After all, we already have one professional GM in our midsts (and Alan H. is super excited about it!), Super excited :D Al e. is probably right that the sessions would have to be either pretty expensive or have a number of players to make it worthwhile, considering the GM has to do a lot of prep as well as run the game. Not sure there's a copyright issue, I think you'd be able to use anything you bought as you're charging for your time/service, not the materials used. 3 players at $5 per session could net you a pizza, but not sure how expensive bears are in your country (also how much pizza would the bear eat? Got to take all the logistics into account). My idea for monetising this and making it worthwhile would be to create your adventure, have it polished and ready to run in Roll20. Turn it into a module, then offer to run it for players for a consideration (PayPal, or whatever strikes you as appropriate for your services). That way you're able to sell the content to other GMs, you only need to make it once but can run it multiple times (earning a fee each time, bumping up how "worthwhile" it is), and Roll20 will benefit by having more content.

The copyright issue is, if you sing "Moon River" in the shower, there is no copyright law violated. If you charge people to hear you sing "Moon River" you have to pay the writer a royalty, legally. If people pay you to watch you sing in the shower there may be other laws being violated. As soon as there is any transfer of money or goods intellectual property laws kick in. You own the book, not the right to print copies of it and sell them on the corner. The key word there is sell. Ask any of the people who got C&Ds from W.O.T.C. about copyright issues. The only reason I bring it up is, while I don't give a rat's @$$ what you do or what laws you violate, the carrier, in this case roll 20, is often the party who is attacked, this is why they use Sound Cloud for background audio, it avoids legal exposure. Please don't do anything that puts the site at risk, by being unaware of what you are doing.

I'm certainly not a lawyer, but if a published module includes material that is expected to be handed out to players (maps, notes, handouts, diagrams, artwork) I would think that there must be some sort of 'reasonable use' clause in the pertinent law?

Dan W. said: I'm certainly not a lawyer, but if a published module includes material that is expected to be handed out to players (maps, notes, handouts, diagrams, artwork) I would think that there must be some sort of 'reasonable use' clause in the pertinent law? why would you even risk it? anyhoo get off the piracy plox, piracy is illegal end of discussion. and as Alen says: Alan H. said: Super excited :D Al e. is probably right that the sessions would have to be either pretty expensive or have a number of players to make it worthwhile, considering the GM has to do a lot of prep as well as run the game. Not sure there's a copyright issue, I think you'd be able to use anything you bought as you're charging for your time/service, not the materials used. 3 players at $5 per session could net you a pizza, but not sure how expensive bears are in your country (also how much pizza would the bear eat? Got to take all the logistics into account). My idea for monetising this and making it worthwhile would be to create your adventure, have it polished and ready to run in Roll20. Turn it into a module, then offer to run it for players for a consideration (PayPal, or whatever strikes you as appropriate for your services). That way you're able to sell the content to other GMs, you only need to make it once but can run it multiple times (earning a fee each time, bumping up how "worthwhile" it is), and Roll20 will benefit by having more content. and no, dont use other peoples assets, art / tokens / maps / ect... make it yourself... from scratch... before you ever even think of charging people money... i dont charge people to sit at my dinning room table to play, but u can bet your ass they bring pizza n beer for me. PS&gt; no more talk if illigal shinanigans! Piracy discussion -------&gt; that way, dont let the door hit your ass on the way out, k

anyhoo get off the piracy plox, piracy is illegal end of discussion. I've no idea what a 'piracy plox' is, but I completely agree that piracy is illegal. And I also agree that engaging in that would endanger the site, so should be avoided!

Plox is Internet slang for please.

On that note, this thread has been teetering over the line into off-topic territory, so it has been closed. When you signed up for Roll20 you agreed to abide by our Code of Conduct and please review the CoC to ensure you are following the rules you agreed to abide by when you signed up for our site. This conversation would be better served posting it on a site like reddit.com/r/rpg.