Very hard to find group

I really dont know where to post this. I finally decided to give a try to virtual pen and paper playing. Fully excited for this site and the possibility I started looking into open games.To find there is no lack of openings posted. So i started applying for groups. "Hi, i am interested in joining your game" No answer from any... Than I started looking at applications only to find people are posting whole essays about their fictional characters instead of intent to join. Hmmmm.... I have nothing against detailed character backstory. But to write 500 word essay - before - you are even considered for acceptance to group. I dont know how much time these guys are having, but i am working dad, and D&D is my hobby, not full time work. And are the times of few buddies playing D&D lost forever to amateur novelist itching for a venue to impress with their witty prose ? ...Reminds me of Roleplaying guilds in certain MMOs , filled with what is called roleplay-snobs. People in love with their drama writing skills roleplaying sessions of what only looks like two insane William Shakespeare's meeting in  poetry ball. Thats not D&D , thats amateur drama class. So please, people. If you are DM and hopefully not from dead poet society , look at short applications. Dont choose based on who has longest backstory.

The issue is as follows. Last time I put up a game to run, I got nearly 50 applications in 3 days. Which means I need to reject 90% of applications.  I need to judge people based on something. And people who don't put in the effort to write more than a single line, to my mind, seem less dedicated players. After all, I am looking for people who can reliably devote 4 hours a week to my game. If they can't spend 10 minutes applying, where many others can, I will consider those with a well written application first. Of course I throw the overly elaborate prose out the door next, but the one-liners are gone before that. I have to get an impression of what kind of person I'm taking in, from their application. A one-line application says to me that you don't really care or don't have time for this kind of hobby anyhow. I agree that it's not the best measure to judge people by, but in this medium, it's the only one I've got. so my advice is to take that time you intend to spend on playing in a week, and spend that writing a thoughtful application to a few games. A good GM will have some questions they want answered in an application.

I personally find the idea of submitting a character concept before being accepted into a game, in most instances, a little insane.  I know it's the norm, so I do it sometimes.  But, I still think it's a little crazy.  I usually want to know more about the game, what other people are playing, and what they're into.  For instance, young hothead who can't quite control his powers but has tremendous drive, kind of shonen-inspired, might be a great character for a lot of campaigns.  But, it also might be really annoying to the other players.  So, I'd want to check in with everyone before I pitched it (I actually opted to go in an entirely different direction for a few reasons).  All of which is to say this.  Twotricks, I think you could make somewhat more elaborate application posts without having to generate a character.  Describe what kind of things you're into, what kinds of characters attract you, and just say a little bit about what kind of gamer you are.  That should hopefully only take about 15 minutes and might help.  

When finding groups online (be it Roll20, or Fantasy Grounds, or any other system)  the GM to Player Ratio problem inherent to the genre is exacerbated. There's hundreds, if not thousands of players to each GM as the audience expands from your local gaming store to world-wide internet. The result, of course, is that GM's are flooded with potential players and have the challenge/luxury of picking and choosing from the flock.  It's harder for GMs to pick 4-5 people out of the dozens that apply, and the players face more competition for those spots.  That means more work to stand out from the flock of players. The only advice I can offer, which admittedly isn't super helpful to your situation, is to try to get to know other players and GM's well and make some friends.  If you're able to network it makes it a lot easier to establish a group or two that help each other find games.  (Most GM's will take an existing player's recommendation over a raw applicant any day, when looking for players) Otherwise, just keep a detailed Profile (mine is pretty fleshed out if you want an example), keep trying,  and get your name out there.

Man... dozens/hundreds applying for games? That would be great. For the non-D&D games I advertise for I get like 5 applications max (including experience on other sites). Oh the joys of catering to niche markets. Anyway, point is I have a slightly different perspective. When I'm sorting through my "mountains of applications" I do inevitably get short applications as well as long ones. With a tiny pool of apps to choose from, I can tell you that short applications are still more likely to be denied. But there are some long applications that get denied too (Generally when it looks like a player is putting so much thought into their character that they will refuse to follow any semblance of an open plot). I've had to delay games, replan them for fewer players, or even cancel them altogether just because of bad applications. It's pretty crappy honestly, and that's why even when I only get like 3 applications, I will deny one that's TOO short. TOO short is when you can tell that someone put no thought into it. And you can definitely tell when that's the case. But short applications can be super high quality. I don't remember who the writer was who was asked to write a 6-word story with deep meaning, but he wrote "Baby shoes for sale, never worn." That's freaking nuts! Open to so much interpretation and took no time at all to read. Do you know what I could do with that as a GM?! So much quality! And that's exactly what you need to do. If you don't want to write an essay, make what you do write have SOME meaning. You'll be fine.

Ultimately, this is kinda the same issues employers have with job applicants and resume's.Entire industry's exist (recruiters, sites like careerbuilders, etc) to sift through applicants and try to match them up with employers.  There's nothing out there for game/player matching so we're left with the old-fashioned method of openly posting and reading through whomever applies.

Well, honestly I dont know ... Someone here equaled this with job interviews. I hate job interviews. I play games to get away from rat race ... and here we are choosing best quality players among many... Makes me honestly want to play with those poor underdog players that are never chosen. In any case. I applied to at least 15 games over last month. For some application i wrote two sentences, other I wrote full character background. Rarely any answer.

If nobody's playing with you, run your own game. Build a friend base; I have about 20 people who I know I'd want to game with any day of the week, and another 60+ who I'd say "probably" to. If you're applying for 15+ games, you're probably applying the same way repeatedly. (This is true of job-seekers who send in 50 applications and wonder why none grab interviewers' attention.) Apply to niche games. Google things you haven't heard of. There's a world outside 5th Ed and Pathfinder and as Reknown0 is aware, they could use players.

500 words is not a large word count at all. I don't know what your beef is. Obviously, real quality will shine through in less...

the problem with internet gaming is that people lose interest fairly quickly, the idea behind making people write a backstory is that if they already invested so much into creating one...they wont quite the game after one session to go watch tv or have a beer instead. Nothing more frustrating for a GM than a player that doesn't show up after they spend a couple evenings building a world for them to play in. So yeah, while some short applications are good(ive been accepted into games with short applications lol) it is the long ones that show that you actually care and really want in. And If you REALLY cant find a game, you could always gm one...its actually not as hard as people make it out to be and its possibly way more rewarding that playing at times. But everyone needs to make that 1st step themselves.

My recommend when making an application is to talk about yourself as a player rather than your character. Things that I look for in applications is people talking about subjects like their preferred play style, what peeked their interest about my campaign. Their schedule. Their experience with the system. What their expectations for the campaign is. The character concept can be as short as “Sneaky Rogue” or “Old western guy,” we can always expand upon the base concept in the campaign set-up session. It is much more important to me that I get the feeling that the person behind the screen is reliable, and is compatible with my GM style. Something you just can’t judge from an "Hi, i am interested in joining your game" application.

Flesh Without said: 500 words is not a large word count at all. I don't know what your beef is. Obviously, real quality will shine through in less... This is exactly the elitist attitude that concerns me. What real quality ? Back in the day D&D was about buddies having fun game. What is it today, for you ? Amateur fantasy writer contest ? Competition for most quality player ? Thank you very much, I thought i am joining fun game, not competition.

Twotricks said: Flesh Without said: 500 words is not a large word count at all. I don't know what your beef is. Obviously, real quality will shine through in less... This is exactly the elitist attitude that concerns me. What real quality ? Back in the day D&D was about buddies having fun game. What is it today, for you ? Amateur fantasy writer contest ? Competition for most quality player ? Thank you very much, I thought i am joining fun game, not competition. Your constant berating of people putting effort in as 'amateur fantasy writers' shows the true elitest attitude. Your assumption that GM's owe you their time, and should be running games for those who aren't 'quality' indicates why you might be having a hard time finding a game. GM's put in effort, often over and above players, and have as much right to enjoy their game as anyone else, why should they invite anyone they don't think will fit in, or put in the effort?

I tend to use a questionnaire and find players through that, about how much thought they put in their answers.

Twotricks said: What real quality ? Back in the day D&D was about buddies having fun game. What is it today, for you ? Amateur fantasy writer contest ? Competition for most quality player ? Thank you very much, I thought i am joining fun game, not competition. This might be your problem in not finding games. While I don't condone writing 500 word essays and stories about your character, I expect to pick people who will mesh with the group I play with, and the people I would like to consider a circle of friends. I don't pick people who I think are going to be jerks, anti-social, or generally rude. Perhaps you're coming off as abrasive, as people have pointed out here. Do GMs ever speak with you beyond the initial application process? I know that I prefer to do a voice interview after an application, maybe with another player or two to see what happens when they're not dealing with text. Sometimes, people come off as abrasive. Sometimes, they lose a personality entirely, and become willing to just say "Yes" to whatever is asked of them. Sometimes, people actually impress me, and I end up gaming with those people. I don't care about character concept. I'll look at it, consider it, but ultimately, I want to know that someone is flexible, and willing to change it - it's the least important part of an application. If you were to tell me that I should let you play because you thought games were for having fun, and fuck story, then I'd probably pass too? Telling a story is fun. The GM's fun is just as important as yours. And crafting a story, as a group, is far more fun than cracking some beers, and throwing some dice to kill some orcs. To me, at least. ;)

Animus said: Twotricks said: What real quality ? Back in the day D&D was about buddies having fun game. What is it today, for you ? Amateur fantasy writer contest ? Competition for most quality player ? Thank you very much, I thought i am joining fun game, not competition. This might be your problem in not finding games. While I don't condone writing 500 word essays and stories about your character, I expect to pick people who will mesh with the group I play with, and the people I would like to consider a circle of friends. I don't pick people who I think are going to be jerks, anti-social, or generally rude. Perhaps you're coming off as abrasive, as people have pointed out here. Do GMs ever speak with you beyond the initial application process? I know that I prefer to do a voice interview after an application, maybe with another player or two to see what happens when they're not dealing with text. Sometimes, people come off as abrasive. Sometimes, they lose a personality entirely, and become willing to just say "Yes" to whatever is asked of them. Sometimes, people actually impress me, and I end up gaming with those people. I don't care about character concept. I'll look at it, consider it, but ultimately, I want to know that someone is flexible, and willing to change it - it's the least important part of an application. If you were to tell me that I should let you play because you thought games were for having fun, and fuck story, then I'd probably pass too? Telling a story is fun. The GM's fun is just as important as yours. And crafting a story, as a group, is far more fun than cracking some beers, and throwing some dice to kill some orcs. To me, at least. ;) Oh. All right ... No honestly this could not be the problem. Since my applications were always polite , friendly , meticulous to the fault in filling needed info. And nobody answered had "mini interview" and decided i am not fitting. People are simply not answering most of the submissions. Alas... I myself used to DM many games. And I know how much effort and prep goes into it. And honestly I only ever had problems with "over eager" players, the type of players you seem to praise here. They were hard to lead as DM, always questioning every move DM makes, and often jerks to other players for not being up to their "high" role-playing standards. Looking for, or preferring such players is in my opinion rookie mistake. But this is beyond the point. Since many of the words you posted here creep me out, to be honest. Voice interviews ? Oh my god... Now I am beginning  to be glad i had no responses. Some of you are maybe taking it tad to far .... really not what I thought i am signing for. I will keep lookout for more relaxed games. Thanks for the info.

Twotricks said: Since many of the words you posted here creep me out, to be honest. Voice interviews ? Oh my god... ...Uh. I wasn't aware that trying to weed out creeps and game with people socially-adjusted people was creepy. I'll take that under advisement. I've had more people who were maladjusted creeps and morons than I'd care to admit in my games. I've taken it to the point where I make sure my group is actually on-board with new players at this point. Because their opinion matters as much as mine. Maybe don't imply people who don't want people who act like 2 years old that giggle at the word 'boobs' is 'creepy'.

No honestly this could not be the problem. Since my applications were always polite , friendly , meticulous to the fault in filling needed info I think this thread has served its purpose, but the lack of capitalization, random double spaces (or spaces before punctuation), constant trailing off ellipses, and lack of willing to have a 10 minute skype chat with GMs...those aren't Roll20 specific problems. They'd apply anywhere many gamers want to play few games.

Twotricks , as it seems that the community has discussed many of your concerns with you, I'm going to consider the questions you've posted answered and close this thread. There are currently several open threads on this subject (e.g. this one ); please feel free to continue any discussion within one of them. I am also closing this thread because several posts within this thread are skirting the borders of violating the  Roll20 Community Code of Conduct (vis-a-vis Common Courtesy and Civil Discussion ). Please review the Code of Conduct before directly addressing other forum-users. Thank you.