Hardest game to run?

DM''s, GM's etc. tend to have a relatively thankless job, and it's not for everyone. I will never discourage anyone from trying to run a game, but some systems lend themselves to fledgling dm's more than others. DnD (specifically 3.5) is a great way to cut your teeth. i've played a lot of games where the DM was competent, but maybe not great. It's all good because it's still fun. Other games i have tried have collapsed under a bad GM - namely White wolf games and Shadowrun. So in your opinion, what's the hardest system to run, or in other words in what system do you NEED a good to very good GM to make it work?

Indeed. For example, I've seen people say Exalted is complicated, but I don't find it to be so. Then again, I own all of the books, and read many of them cover-to-cover.

+1 to Kristin's post, but I'd go with Phoenix Command as being objectively among the hardest to run.

Here is a list of systems from top to bottom. I have ran all of these at one time or another. Been successful sometimes and colossal failures others. Nobilis Just from the shear difficulty of wrapping your head around it. Eclipse Phase Needs a GM who has a strong handle on the setting and how to react to players BESM GMs who don't carefully watch player power levels can get insane and game wrecking very quickly Shadowrun Gotta be ready for every different direction players could come from Legends of the Wulin Only cause the dice mechanic doesn't lend itself for Roll20. DnD any edition and Pathfinder If the DM doesn't reign in supplements or able to recognize power combos, players can get out of hand quickly. And party balance is a difficult thing to manage.

Shadowrun & Fate : The amount of crunch these games have it just so....horrible. World of Darkness, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun (3rd & prior) : There's a lot of metaplot in these games, the problem is that depending on how much you know or your players know will influence how the game goes, know too little and you have a substandard game, too much and the players are bogged down with to much information. Anything using the Play by Post format: IT NEVER WORKS!!

Of the various games that I have ran in the past I have to say that Shadowrun is the hardest one. Other games simply have 1 world to manage, the physical world. SR has the physical world, the astral, and the matrix. You cannot run one without the other. I always tried to keep the matrix stuff toned down, but the current edition has it connected to everything. If people played it right they could turn any challenge the GM wanted to put into the game into a cake walk. You need to balance astral and matrix support for NPCs to be plausible, reasonable, and without throwing up ultra obvious hints that will simply give away the entire storyline. Some of the easiest games would have to be robotech and the old starwars game. Never ran a dnd game, but from what I gather it seems like it would also be one of the easier games to run. Easy or difficult to run games don't make the game any more or any less fun though, nor does it take away from the time and effort put forth by the GM.

System mechanic ; The easiest would be Toon and the hardest for me would be MnM 3e. I don't know why I have a problem with it but I do so go figure. As for D&D, I would say it depends on the edition. I personally favor the earlier editions but most people say the newer editions are the easiest of them. Robotech was a fun game. I got to slam my veritech into the SDF and survive.

One of the hardest systems to run is probably Battletech: A time of war, the rules for vehicular combat are just so intense/in depth it is hard to learn all of them.

Continuum is pretty tricky to get your head around, and I am not even sure where I would begin planning a game where the players can freely travel in space and time - if the book were a little less dry I might get through it all and have a better idea though. Wraith is the one game I've never felt able to run, I love the setting but to do it justice I feel I need to know my players better than any group I've ever had, and even then I am not sure it would be enough.

So many great systems I've always wanted to play and or run that i forgot about! Wraith and Exalted were always top of my list. Exalted is just that WW a system, which means not only managing power levels but also teaching players. Wraith same thing. My biggest issue running there is that in a game that could be anything, narrowing down a story was tough. Plus people always wanted to be the well known Vamps, not silly ghosts. Shadowrun takes so much micromanaging. This person is hacking while this person is driving while this person is cleaning a gun and hoping it doesn't misfire and hit the t roll.. and then there is balancing real world expectations with game realities. We once spent 2 and a half hours trying to rent a car to get to our job because we just couldn't roll high enough to find what we wanted. I know that's poor dm'ing because eventually he has to just say what you can or cannot find, but the system leads itself to such play. I think bottom line is that the hardest things are 1. managing players 2. managing power levels 3. teaching the system, cause let's face it not all our players read the books.

Rifts Awesome setting. Horrible rules.

Rifts... the disparity in power between the PCs is so potentially great, even if you just allow the RUE book, that you can easily kill off some pc's while others won't even break a sweat. In my view, it takes a very experienced GM to moderate the power levels and impose some kind of parity on the party in order for the group to be fun. Shadowrun... with combats happening on astral, matrix and 3-D physical battlefields all at the same time potentially, there is LOT of work maintaining a fun pace to the game and keeping everyone interested and occupied without massive confusion. Later editions tried to simplify and make it easier to run, but they lost a LOT of the original flavor.

Continuum . I ran a campaign for four years, and it was some of the hardest GMing I've ever done. PCs can teleport and time-travel at will. As GM you have to take extensive notes because no matter what you have planned, the PCs could suddenly pause that plot-thread for a ten-session diversion to a different continent and century before coming back to the exact second they left. I set up a wiki and an in-character calendar for the game, required my players to take extensive notes in addition to the ones I was taking, and still felt inadequately prepared nearly every time they suddenly returned to a dormant plot in media res on a whim.

I'm throwing a rock at Rifts, and Shadowrun. Both are great games, but Rifts refuses to update itself, and shadowrun has many pinch points, like the matrix. :) I've played in absolutely great games of each, but it takes a little more effort from GM and players alike.

Mage: The Ascension. Just plain crazy system. Kult. By the time you're done creating a character, the character is ready to pick up a gun and blow his own brains out. Aftermath. By the time you're done creating a character, YOU are ready to pick up a gun and blow your own brains out. And then the character dies in the tube and you have to start over again before even really playing. Click.

Feefait said: So in your opinion, what's the hardest system to run, or in other words in what system do you NEED a good to very good GM to make it work? I'd probably say GURPS or Champions, these are both very flexible and cross-genre, and because of that, very crunchy and pretty easy for players to abuse or power game if they know the systems better than the GM does. And some systems are just badly designed, a lot of the stuff from Palladium Books strikes me that way. But any GM, if they are good enough, can take even badly designed systems and make them work.

As all the Gm's around, sometimes we've tried a new system and had players that are bitching about single step you would take, this is even worse when the ST/DM doesn't knows the rules or don't have a strong personality and if that happens any system can be Hard to Run/Master 1st.- Rules: There are a lot of guys out there that do not have anything to do except looking for ways to be the most powerful/killer/munchskin player around.. i really don't get it, sometimes i feel that this kinda guys do not have fun playing games if they don't feel like showing everyone they have the less/null social life and their only way out to express themselves is telling people on the games that they are wrong. (If you felt offended... just remember that a guy or a bunch of them made the rules and another human can break/exchange the rules... new versions of different games show that everything need some changes/improvements) 2nd.- ST/GM/DM: Based on a past mistake (my first 3.5 game.. which was a complete mess over rules, cuz the players knew i was new to that shit and they always attached/explained me the rules that would benefit them and "forgot" to gave me explanations of the ones that could harm them.) Since then i don't allow myself to tell the players that i don't now what i'm doing, even if i really don't know what i'm doing. Show them who's boss, not punishing them but being smarter... but if they throw you a rock, throw them a bigger rock. Yah.. i know this doesn't sounds well, but sometimes you have to be tough. Example: I have a nWoD Zombie Survival game (n/oWoD are my favorite systems... which i've played for 17 years) and some players where bitching about the ranged defense difficulties (even when that "Homebrew" saved them from dying in hands of the army more than once) because they found out that in nWoD ranged attacks are only against armor ... and i said - "Ok.. lets attach to the No Defense against ranged attacks rule" - My zombies died like mosquitoes till the end of the session... next session a mutation of the zombies that can spit acid appeared and my players where like - "Player: Ok, my defense is 4.. Me: Sorry, we agreed not to use defense against ranged attacks" - *Internal Evil Laugh* In resume, every system is easy if you know the rules and know how to apply smart challenges to the players, sometimes they will be the ones that will punish themselves on certain situations. Be tough, but don't punish them deliberately and OVER ALL let them know that everyone is in there to have fun... not to show how much they know about rules.

The hardest for me really is any system where I get rules lawyers wanting to stick to every detail instead of just roleplaying and using the rules as a framework. Heck, even a simple card game is difficult with such people :-)

No mention of Riddle of Steel? Running that is like trying to thread a needle in an earthquake. Very slow, very gritty, very lethal.

Rolemaster

I like rolemaster. Aftermath! was a bit crunchy as anything in print. Timemaster was fun, because they limited the group to a few jumps in time to keep it easy on the GM. Worst: I'd say Gamma World edition with the color powers chart because pfft the game was not finished upon release and 35 or so pages were just.. missing. it was a poor cobbled together mess. They tried to jump on the superhero power multiplier via column thing and nope, died on the vine. Rhand Phoenix command was pretty tough, and thus is' good for a one shot stepdaughter Aliens RPG by leading edge. I liked the Aliens setting. good book but a steady diet of blast xenomorphs didn't get it. Especially when half the group or most or all of the group would die. I once had a guy named Dan in one of my groups who used to work with those guys.. all those combat rolls for pen and damage and crits, and asked how did they ever use all of that? "Oh, they didn't. we sold it to people that were OCD anal, they eat that stuff up, we used Boot Hill top secret rules." Chivalry and Sorcery was pretty tough. I loved the setting, way too crunchy. SPACE OPERA. Great idea way too much text too many mechanics. But some parts of it, like planet gen were pretty damn spiffy. High colonies? I think that's the name. not really much of a game there. I like Richard Tucholka, but that game with the rings like stargate he did before stargate turned up... the game was sort of comedy with evil overlord marshmallow people.. i'm not lying...to be sort of comedy random roll charts maie it up as you go, but it was fun. Time and time again. Okay time travel. Not enough development. Yaquinto damn time travel game, forget the name. cool scenarios, go back in time to sodom and gomorrah, some others really needed to be more game there. DELTA FORCE. too crunchy for a game that needs to be slam bang action.

Way said: DnD any edition and Pathfinder If the DM doesn't reign in supplements or able to recognize power combos, players can get out of hand quickly. And party balance is a difficult thing to manage. Actually, this is rendered pretty much unnecessary in 4e, because the various classes are fairly well-balanced, and there isn't any real game-breaking stuff in any of the splatbooks or Dragon magazine. For me, I think it has a lot to do with style. There are some systems out there which are so complicated or so badly designed that they are difficult to play and GM. But apart from that, it's what system fits your style. When I first started DMing, I really struggled because I was trying to DM 4e in a very simulationist style as though it were 3.5. It didn't work out, and I didn't really have any success until I started changing things up on my end of the table.

My top 7 Hard to GM Games 7. AD&D 1e: the original gonzo-soup of rules but it is very fondly remembered for the random Harlot table. 6. WHFRP: "NAKED DWARF" unnggggh, my brain hurts. 5. Rolemaster: played it for nearly decade, but that was because we didn't play RAW. Playing RAW is a mindf__k. 4. SLA Industries: you think, "Wow. Look at this hardcore emo-tech art. What a setting!" Then there's a gunfight and everyone's in pieces watching their entrails plastered on nearby walls. 3. Battlelords of the 23rd Century: unless you're from a family of accountants (I am, but am not one) with generational spanning abilities for absorbing sheets of figures this will make you want to cry. 2. Harnmaster: I have a "Voice" attribute? It's how nice my voice sounds? 1. Dangerous Journeys: I am unafraid of crunch. I am unafraid of crunch. AH.... no. I can't lie any more. I am afraid.

[GM] Col S. said: My top 7 Hard to GM Games 7. AD&D 1e: the original gonzo-soup of rules but it is very fondly remembered for the random Harlot table. 6. WHFRP: "NAKED DWARF" unnggggh, my brain hurts. 5. Rolemaster: played it for nearly decade, but that was because we didn't play RAW. Playing RAW is a mindf__k. 4. SLA Industries: you think, "Wow. Look at this hardcore emo-tech art. What a setting!" Then there's a gunfight and everyone's in pieces watching their entrails plastered on nearby walls. 3. Battlelords of the 23rd Century: unless you're from a family of accountants (I am, but am not one) with generational spanning abilities for absorbing sheets of figures this will make you want to cry. 2. Harnmaster: I have a "Voice" attribute? It's how nice my voice sounds? 1. Dangerous Journeys: I am unafraid of crunch. I am unafraid of crunch. AH.... no. I can't lie any more. I am afraid. I had no problem with 1e. Never played/ran #6,5,3,2,1 and never heard of #4 (I think).

Not sure I'd call 1e "gonzo", but I can see where you're coming from. Regardless, I'd say AD&D 1e is pretty easy to DM. Get the basics down and you can just free-form much of the rest.

Rolemaster takes as a lot of work raw.... and then you die if you play it raw... (adversity followed by disappointment.) If we are grading for an "overall" hardness ... rolemaster has to be way up there.

[GM] Col S. said: 1. Dangerous Journeys: I am unafraid of crunch. I am unafraid of crunch. AH.... no. I can't lie any more. I am afraid. The game that killed both TSR, Inc AND GDW! Blah. I don't even remember much about the mechanics, only that I do have somewhere all of the books for it. I'm a collector, it's a problem.

Rolemaster table for JUST a broadsword....

1e I call gonzo in a mechanics sense - it's just any old idea mashed into the game. Roll high here, roll low there, have a low THAC0 and a high roll to hit a low number. It's ridiculously inconsistent & therefore gonzo. I'd love to defend RM because I had so much fun but it's hard on players & therefore hard to GM. Playing it RAW is impossible. I found Harnmaster is "more" lethal than RM! Also, honorable mention to Exalted.

Is it only a matter of time before someone mentions "he who shall not be named" - the worst RPG ever? Or, hopefully, does literally everyone realize that it is not meant to actually be played, but as a 1000 page testament to how horrible of a human being the author is?

Ah, playting rolemaster rules as written is not impossible. People at cons have run it as one shots for years, I ran it as RM and as MERP. You just need each player has their own crit sheets for the weapons they use, and the GM doesn't use 15 different kinds of NPCs armor. It's actually very freeing and comes down to How much do I want on ATK vs. DEF, and then roll high. Reading the crit charts and fumbles is fun. The Real True Bitch or a RM game is making the damn characters. hours and hours. 10 read em yes correct 10 stats. And people trying to figure their skill ratios vs class. Yeah PC gen is a real bear,. But I always got the exact character I wanted. And I like the spell system, master of cold you get snowflake, cold wind, snowball, iceball, blowing snow, blizzard, super blizzard, True Blizzard, then master of all icicles in the universe atop the evil bad guy head.