Trading: Experienced DM for GPs

Thanks to everyone for the discussion! It's been great to hear a variety of perspectives. Hope everyone is well. :) The Plot Hook: As you relax in the tavern, admiring the comely wenches and mustachioed waiters, and wondering where you’re going to find your next entertainment, a hooded figure approaches, bringing with him an aura of palpable excitement and adventure. He throws back his hood, and croaks, “I hear ye fine adventurers be lookin’ for excitement? I have some te trade, if ye but have the coin…” The Summary: I’m an experienced DM looking for players from any and all experience with D&D 3.5, 4.0, Pathfinder or CoC interested in hiring out my DM services to those in need. I’ll happily run a complimentary free quest (2-3 sessions + character generation session) to let you know I’m legit and know my game. ;) My Backstory: I have been a DM for about 12 years now, back when 3.0 was first released by WotC. I have since DMed D&D 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, Call of Cthulhu and Mutants and Masterminds 2.0 groups. I'm friendly, creative, unusual and sometimes frightening, but love every aspect of the game. The Reward: Complete customization; complete control. I like working with both those new to D&D and those with years of experience, so any and all comers are welcome. If you have a type of game you like to play, tell me. I'll make it happen. If you prefer hack-and-slash, expect hordes of monsters. If you like role playing, I'll wear my voice out with different accents and growls. If you dislike the difficulty of the setting, tell me and I'll adjust it from kid-gloves-easy to insanely-challenging. My job is to make sure you're having a good time with it, so if there's anything that you would like changed, tell me and I'll make it happen. For Free: Two-session custom campaign with a quick character generation session for those in need. This will be used to let everyone get to know each other, and show where everyone sits experience-wise. It'll also give you a good chance to evaluate me and decide if you'd like me to be your DM in the future. Paid: Pay-to-play model according to the following. A "Quest": Standalone series of sessions. Includes complimentary character generation session for those in need. A "Campaign": campaign setting. Includes multiple simultaneous questlines - extensive world development, opportunity for extensive character development. Includes complimentary multiple character generation and development sessions. A "Premade": I will use publicly available material or material from my personal vault of quests and campaigns. The players will select a quest or campaign they would like to run. Alternately, the players can elect that I select one matching parameters of their choosing. A "Custom": Quest or Campaign is one that I invest much of my personal time in, making the quest or campaign significantly more involved and tailored to the group in question. The material will be 100% custom, unpublished content built with your group in mind. A note on pricing. The current rate is the same regardless of group size. A smaller group will get more accomplished per session and will have a higher percentage of the time devoted to their character's interactions with the world. Sessions will be estimated at 3+ hours, with plenty of slack on the long-end when things get interesting! Premade: - Quest: $30 per session (3-6 players) - Campaign: $45 per session (3-6 players) Custom: - Quest: $30 per session (3-6 players) + $60 up front (time and materials) - Campaign: $45 per session (3-6 players) + $60 up front (time and materials) All prices are subject to negotiation, of course :) Best, TrojanKnight

Is this even allowed on Roll20?

I will be completely honest here, I hope that no one take this offer and if there is someone that is so desperate for a DM that they will pay someone for it, send me a PM and I am sure that I can work it out so I can DM for you guys instead. No one should have to pay for playing RPG's. $30-45 is outrageous... thats the price of a single book almost. So once more I am more then happy to DM for people and I do not charge for it since I enjoy doing it. I have been GM'ing for about eleven years now and I got experience with most major systems as well as many others. I administer one of the larger P&P bords in Europe and I host regular events IRL to spread RPG's. This sort of profiteering is only hurting the hobby in my eyes, and its small as it is and if people will start to charge for DM/GM'ing then it will never grow so... yeah I am upset about this as you might read and I have issue staying on topic since I have a wish to use a language that is not helpful for a healthy discussion. But to summarize, this is just plain wrong in my eyes, don't do it. I am sure you can find a DM that wont try to take your money. I am more then happy to answer any questions and if I have time over poke me and we can see if I can run a campaign, I love to write them and run them. Best regards The Riddler.

LOL wow, if you feel you should be paid for your time as a DM maybe you should not be doing it. If you want to get paid maybe stream your games on twitch and have a donate button I've seen this before and it works for some groups, then you are asking money for people who are being entertained by your campaign. I can't imagine ever having fun in an rpg I paid someone to DM. And for those who are tempted PM me I can find a spot for you in one of my games or start a new one, plenty of people on here willing to DM for free. Don't give this guy a penny.

I am only starting my GMing journey but idea of paying someone to do it is outrageous; I'd never request money from my players. GMing is something one has volunteered to do so, and providing content that satisfies said players should be enough of a reward. I'd be happy if people didn't decide to partake in this insanity; I can't offer my services as a DM, sadly.

Hello all, First off, thanks to everyone for posting on this. This had been an idea that I had for some time and I was interested to see how the Roll20 community would take it. My reasoning behind the possibility was twofold. Firstly I was interested in seeing if being a "Professional DM" (in the sense that you make money) *could* be done. There are likely better models for it (perhaps being sponsored by a local hobbyshop to host free games, thereby increasing the number of people in the hobbyshop or somesuch). From what I've seen, there are opportunities around in which people pay (in one sense or another) to have someone who knows what they're doing to DM. Secondly, I understand, as most DMs, that DMing a campaign "well" takes a considerable amount of time and effort, not to mention expense. While it's all well and good to offer these services for free, ultimately, as a DM, you have to derive so much enjoyment from the game that you are willing to make significantly more sacrifice of your other activities than your players must. The time expended by a DM vastly exceeds that of the players. Anyways, I would be happy to hear additional thoughts on this matter. To speak more specifically to some of the comments so far: @The Riddler "$30-45 is outrageous... thats the price of a single book almost." This is not per person, but instead per session. This equates to something between $5 and $15 per person, or roughly $20-$60 per month. Contrasting this to the pay-to-play game WoW, for example ($13-$15 per month), The low side of this is pretty reasonable. As someone hoping to make an income off of this, $30-$45 per session equates to $7.50-$15 per hour (plus overhead not in session). This does not seem an exorbitant rate from the DMs perspecitive, but ultimately it does look high from a player's. "This sort of profiteering is only hurting the hobby in my eyes" - can you expand on this? Is WotC "profiteering" by making people pay for the books? Are conventions "profiteering" by having people pay to enter and play with DMs and other people there? @John R. "If you want to get paid maybe stream your games on twitch and have a donate button I've seen this before and it works for some groups" This is an interesting idea. I hadn't heard of it before. Thanks for bringing this up. I like to think that most of the groups I run with are interesting enough that others might be humored by our antics. Thanks! @Bart W. I feel that, to the contrary, "[the] idea of paying someone to do it is outrageous" is untrue for reasons mentioned in the comment to The Riddler. "GMing is something one has volunteered to do" is a great sentiment, but would it not encourage more DMs to DM if there was other incentive? Right now my impression is that the demand for DMs far exceeds the supply. This can be seen as a good thing, as it will encourage new DMs such as yourself, but for the many players who don't want to (or can't) invest the time required to DM, an option like this might be viewed favorably. Finally, I'm interested why this post got so much negative commentary when a former post here <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/913/selling-dm-services#post-14884" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/913/selling-dm-services#post-14884</a> received some positive reviews. If anyone has comments on that, they would be appreciated. Again, thanks all for the comments. I'm interested in seeing replies. Best, TrojanKnight

As another thought; it would be nice to hear from players about this. It seems like all of the responses thus far have come from DMs. Understandably DMs would likely see this post in a negative light. It's very reasonable that players won't like the thought of it either, but I would like to hear their thoughts :) Best, TrojanKnight

Possibly relevant podcast episode: Fear The Boot - Episode 321 GMing, the oldest profession

This is the type of thing usually done in hobby shops or so. If you have any recording of previous games that show why you D/Gming is so great, you'd probably have less trouble if any getting a group of suckers players together. All you really have to do is show them what they're missing and give a little time for impatience to take effect.

As both a player and a DM, I don't think this is an offer I'd take you up on, but as long as this does not violate any site rules, I see no problem with it and do not understand the negativity people throw your way. Why do you guys feel the need to tell other people not to take him up on that offer? Aren't people mature enough to make this call on their own without you throwing out terms like "outrageous". I see a lot of "I wouldn't pay for this, so no one should". Well, if you wouldn't pay for it, with all due respect, don't pay for it. I buy a lot of things other people would not pay for, but I'm still glad they exist. Just like this is nothing I would pay for but maybe someone else will. So what's the harm here? As far as monetizing our hobby goes, this is not even a good way of doing it. Really, what is this guy asking? As near as I can tell, it's close to 10$ per hour, probably less if the campaigns are thoroughly prepared, which they probably have to be if he expects people to actually pay for them. This is pretty close to what you can make working at McDonalds. Clearly he's found a great get-rich-quick scheme. If I wanted to monetize my time, I could find a better way. Oh wait, I did. It's called a job. Someone mentioned streaming. That is probably a much better way of getting cash for gaming, as long as you are good enough and word of mouth spreads enough to attract viewers. Now, look at it from the player perspective. There are literally a dozen players for each spot in a normal roll20 campaign. Each of the campaigns I host has that many applicants and the campaigns I actually get to play in hand even more in some cases. I can see the appeal of hiring someone to host a campaign for you if you want to play in a specific session but just cannot find someone doing this out of goodwill. And if you divide the money he asks by 5 people, is it really that much? Basically 2$/hour of good entertainment. As far as I am concerned, that is a decent rate. I've bought AAA games that were like 40$ and weren't entertaining for more than 2 hours. Again, nothing I would personally be interested in, but also nothing I feel the need to throw shit at just because it offends my tender DM sensibilities that someone else takes money for something I do for free.

Guys just as a quick thought heree (from yet another DM). It's great that you're all expressing your opinions about whether this is 'right' or 'wrong' that Trojan is requesting this, but let's just recall a couple of things about real life / markets / goods and serviecs here. 1. In the vast majority of industries in which volunteers exist, "premium" or sometimes just regular paid versions of the services also exist. 2. Many people are willing to spend money to access otherwise free services. Excellent example being the free to play genre of games that has exploded in popularity in recent memory. You don't NEED to pay, yet many do because they feel they get a better experience. My view then is that Trojan doesn't need to avoid this issue, he merely needs to demonstrate to people why his service that he is providing is 'better' than what someone could get for free. This could be a challenge given the number of skilled and dedicated DMs on Roll20 who put huge amounts of preparation into their games, but who knows - maybe he's a Roll20 legend? All I'm saying here guys is let the sellers do what they want, and let the consumers decide if they buy. Supply and demand will ruin a business far quicker than any competitor opinions (yes we DMs are indeed competitors) will.

I as a player cant belive you muster the corage to post this , tabletop rpgs have allways been a hobby , some people like to play and some people like to tell stories , paying a gm to be able to play in hes game is simply wrong , i tried to be dm before and i was not good at it , but i tried because i wanted to tell a story , and i had a passion for what i wanted to tell , i am not sure how much passion you can put into something you are getting paid for , as i think it would turn more into a job then a hobby , a good posibility like people sugested its twich tv and hope to get donations from people you are entertaining , now it comes to mind as well that perhaps not but since you are posting here , i asume you would be using the roll20 tool to play , if you are trying to make money using theyr tool , should you not offer some of that money to them as they are the creators , and even have it for free and dont make anyone pay for it unless they want some extra features , to be honest this to me stinks of scam , and when you talk about world of warcraft subscription , yeah you might pay a bit more as a single player then the math you said , but atleast you can play 24 hours a day 7 days a week if you are that much into a game , not 4 sessions in a month for the same price , there might be others who think diferent . Aledas

aledas said: I as a player cant belive you muster the corage to post this , tabletop rpgs have allways been a hobby , some people like to play and some people like to tell stories , paying a gm to be able to play in hes game is simply wrong , i tried to be dm before and i was not good at it , but i tried because i wanted to tell a story , and i had a passion for what i wanted to tell , i am not sure how much passion you can put into something you are getting paid for , as i think it would turn more into a job then a hobby , a good posibility like people sugested its twich tv and hope to get donations from people you are entertaining , now it comes to mind as well that perhaps not but since you are posting here , i asume you would be using the roll20 tool to play , if you are trying to make money using theyr tool , should you not offer some of that money to them as they are the creators , and even have it for free and dont make anyone pay for it unless they want some extra features , to be honest this to me stinks of scam , and when you talk about world of warcraft subscription , yeah you might pay a bit more as a single player then the math you said , but atleast you can play 24 hours a day 7 days a week if you are that much into a game , not 4 sessions in a month for the same price , there might be others who think diferent . Aledas Real table sessions have the tradition of the players paying for everyones' (including the GMs) food. Its an understanding. People forget where this hobby came from.

mouse .- i am not sure what you are trying to tell me here , when i was a lot younger yeah we would get together at the dms house and get food and stuff , a couple of friends can do things like that and i see it as normal , so now since i have to play online are you sugesting i should pay to have a dm let me join hes campaing ?

Real quick. I'll respond to a lot of the posts here. @Aledas I think that what Mouse is saying is that it is not unreasonable for the players to compensate the GM for providing services. Now, obviously there's a difference between "buy a pizza for everyone, but the DM doesn't pay" and "pay the DM my hard-earned cash", but in their essence both are just an exchange of resources for services. Again, thank you to everyone who is posting. I'm listening to the webcast ( @Casno ) as I write this. Awesome stuff. Best, TrojanKnight

@Aledas: You -shouldn't- do anything. You don't -have- to do anything. No one is forcing you to take up Trojans' offer and it is far from damaging the hobby. Just... Considering that I for example host 2 five hour sessions a week that would rack up the costs of food quite quickly, no? And there are different costs online as well, like mentor status (which Trojan doesn't have (yet?), I grant you that) or software that one would like to use or material one would like to buy. Yes, its not a must, but thats exactly the point. Trojan is offering something and will surely reevaluate if he gets no responses at all.

Mouse said: Real table sessions have the tradition of the players paying for everyones' (including the GMs) food. Its an understanding. People forget where this hobby came from. Some real tables have that and others toss into the kitty including the GM then even more pay separately. I know when I hosted live games at my home I would not have to cook because everyone chipped in for pizza and everyone brought their drinks. I've been at other GM's homes and it was the same unless they had a wife that was willing to cook a meal for us then we usually tossed in money unless they said not to. Now as to what Trojan posted. Nothing is wrong with his posting his ad. If he gets people then he will have to deliver the experience that satisfies his players. Once he has a bad game the backlash about it will stop him from getting players. I know I have no need or reason to pay money to play for I'm not that desperate. There are to many sites/methods that a player can go to or use to get a live game that do not cost money. True this is a hobby that we all love and play in our spare time but if he is willing to put out professional quality gaming experience then let him try to make a living off it. All I have to say is that he better have a way to for the players to pay him safely and be able to refund them if they are dissatisfied once he misses a game session, has bad session due to who knows what, and numerous other reasons. He also better pay for a mentor level if he is holding it here for his games will not cut it if he is going to do it on the free account. There are features the subscription levels have that he will need.

Thanks for the clarification , was not sure what way the conversation was turning to , like you say in the end everyone will do what they want , guess only time will tell how this all ends . Aledas

As a GM, I really don't have a problem with this. There are a lot of RPG players out there that want to run campaigns on their terms but nobody in their group is willing to be the GM and thus because of that they often can't find GMs because obviously people who run games typically like to do it their own way. But with something like this it would work out for those players. But advertising it on the LFG forum is probably too much. Unless roll20 creates a GM rating system (not likely), then I think things could get quickly out of hand if this kind of post is allowed on here and people start using services like this.

Im actually in favor of paid GMing. Some people want to write stories and become a better writer. However they need to earn enough to feed the cat. So they have to take other jobs. Youtube allowed people to make user generated content, that people enjoy. RP games should be able to do the same thing. If your against it then your just one of those people afraid of change.

TrojanKnight said: ....... @The Riddler "$30-45 is outrageous... thats the price of a single book almost." This is not per person, but instead per session. This equates to something between $5 and $15 per person, or roughly $20-$60 per month. Contrasting this to the pay-to-play game WoW, for example ($13-$15 per month), The low side of this is pretty reasonable. As someone hoping to make an income off of this, $30-$45 per session equates to $7.50-$15 per hour (plus overhead not in session). This does not seem an exorbitant rate from the DMs perspecitive, but ultimately it does look high from a player's. "This sort of profiteering is only hurting the hobby in my eyes" - can you expand on this? Is WotC "profiteering" by making people pay for the books? Are conventions "profiteering" by having people pay to enter and play with DMs and other people there? ....... Reason why I am upset is quite plain. The RPG hobby is very small and it have just recently begun to grow very slowly. If people begin to do this then that will mean less and less people will be interested in it since they will believe that this is how it is everywhere. I am working hard to spread the hobby as much as I can to people and show them that we are not a bunch of satan worshipers that kill puppys for satan.... unless we play that game. Why I would never pay for it: I would never pay for it since I believe that if I am playing with a GM then he is willing to do it for free just as I am. I chose to buy books sure so I can play the game. I put my adventures up on my page so that those who wish can get them but they have the option of donating money for them if they so chose but I won't force them, same with the system or worlds I write. You can donate for them but I wont force you too. I have never come from the culture that you have to buy something for the DM, people get what they want for the session but thats it, its not that you have to get the GM a free pizza thats silly. Usually we cook something for the game and everyone that wants chip in for the food or you go and buy a pizza for yourself or even bring a lunchbox its up to you. @TrojanKnight Well for one thing just to take your math here since you brought it in. A MMO I can play when I want and how long I want, if I were to hire you as a GM then I would not have that option since you wrote a session is 3+ hours. So for $1.25 - $3.75 per person per session depending on the group size. As for WotC or Conventions, WotC publish books they have expenses to make the games that they got to pay for, if they did not write the books you would not be able to play it at all. So that you compare yourself to a Game company and such is in my eyes just stupid. I pay ~$40 for a book and I can use it how many times I want I pay you $40 and I get a few sessions. As for a convention, I am not quite sure what you mean there since those that I go to and play at are free here so I can't compare that I am sorry. But say a group of players want to hire you they want a custom campaign thats $105 for the first session for them. They pay you and you run the game. They want another session and you just hate them and don't want to play with them that means that they would have wasted $105 since they can't continue the campaign. Thats one of the main issues that I have with your model. All the risk is on the players side. You can screw them over. I don't like that. I would not object at all if you were selling your adventures or campaigns that you had written down, not at all. Since then I can play it myself and I am sure that I can finish it since I own the "book". So if you want to make money as this then either use a form of donation or sell your adventures and ideas as books, modules or what you want to call it. You seem to have quite a few ideas so why not sell them if you can write them down? I felt that I got a bit vauge with what I mean so if you have any questions please ask me to clarify. Best regards The Riddler

Since this seems to be touching a sore spot on people I want to say one thing. Lets stay civil and not point fingers or imply pointing fingers or name calling so that the mods don't need to come in and drop the hammer on this thread. Now back to the original reason for this thread. Trojan posting this ad. As far as I've read there is nothing against him make this post. He is posting his business model and trying to drum up business. That is fine in my opinion. At this point this thread might need to be moved to the on-topic forum or off-topic forum for we have jumped all over this thread and diverted it from it's original purpose. My reason for this is that we should continue discussing this issue in a civil method and let Trojan go about his attempt. As pointed out up in the thread some, there is nothing forcing people to use him so there is no need for negativity.

Another thing you could do if you want to make money as a GM. First off: Live stream if and have ads so you get money from that, then put it up on a site and have ads so you get money from that have donation's and when then adventure is done, have it written down and sell the complete book/pdf. Do the same with Campaign worlds. Then the players don't have to pay for it and if you are a good GM and writer you can make money off it but there is no risk of the players getting screwed. Also I wish to apologize if I came on as hostile in my first post. I got upset since I try and spread the hobby as much as I can and I saw this as a way of ruinnng that. So for that I am sorry. Best regards The Riddler.

While not a DM myself though i would like to eventually try my hand on it, i find that if you find the need to start charging people you might lose the fun of it. Lots of people make DMing seems like a chore but some have just as much fun if not more than their players doing it. If you want to make it your job, go for it but i think you already lost the fun part of it if you believe you need to charge people to make it worthwhile for you. But hey like many already expressed here, if people wanna pay for your services, there is nothing stopping you or them.

@ Riddler: You came off upset but not truly angry but so has a lot of other people. I just posted what I did because if we breach Code of Conduct wording or implied meaning we will get the mod hammer dropped on this thread. I've seen it happen other times and I want this thread kept open to discuss this growing aspect of gaming online. First off I want to post an apology to Trojanknight for hijacking his thread. Second we might want make a post in the off-topic forum about this and continue it is a thread made for it or let Trojanknight ask for a mod to move this thread. Third let Trojanknight post his ad and not jump on it.

Hi All, Wow. Thanks for all the posts. I'm reading through everything and very interested in what's here. Here are my responses to some of you. Thanks for everything; this has been tremendously informative. @Val P. "This is the type of thing usually done in hobby shops or so". Agreed. I think that it would be interesting to develop a model that allowed for this online, though. Good points about 'showing what they're missing' though. This makes sense, thanks! @Fishy "as long as this does not violate any site rules". I'm honestly not sure if it does. If it does, I'll take it down immediately. Not my intention to offend or post inappropriately here. EDIT: this looks like it *may* have originally violated the Code of Conduct per below. "Any promotion of outside sales items or fundraising is prohibited without prior approval". I have not gotten in touch with Roll20.net mods about this. "If I wanted to monetize my time, I could find a better way. Oh wait, I did. It's called a job." I agree with this. If I intended to try to make a living on this, I would have to charge more. I'm still doing this as a hobby, but it just seems reasonable to me that expenses my hobby accrues (time, materials, etc) should be shared with those experiencing the perks of it. Yes, I certainly could be more humanitarian about it, I know :P "Basically 2$/hour of good entertainment". That was my understanding. Seems cheap for the players, but *any* money looks like a lot of money when often the service is offered for free. "also nothing I feel the need to throw shit at just because it offends my tender DM sensibilities" Thanks for this. I'm glad this is the approach most folks are taking here. @Grazemoo Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of comparison for DMing groups. Most of my experience comes from in-person play or through MapTools or other remote tools. I will definitely be looking into what is "standard" and what is "above and beyond" for DMs on Roll20. I'd like to see what's out there and how I measure up! @MetroKnight Thanks for the post. I know *nothing* about the mentorship program and definitely agree that the people behind Roll20 should make some kind of income if I'm making a profit using their site. It makes verygood sense to me that I should pick up a mentorship post-haste (and I think I'll do just that). "he better have a way to for the players to pay him safely and be able to refund them if they are dissatisfied" *Extremely* reasonable. I wouldn't even think of trying to make this unfair. I understand that the brunt of the risk is on the players, so it's important to make sure that everything for them is as risk-free as possible. Not sure about the details of this yet, but it's high on the priority list. @OneTallGamer Thanks for the positive post. I'm glad you find this reasonable (if not preferable). "advertising it on the LFG forum is probably too much" - agreed. This was a shot in the dark. An interesting thought, but probably not the place for it. At this point it's more academic than it was when I started out. @The Riddler Time spent vs Money cost breaks down when you're presented with free services (read: most MMOs or most DMs). However, when you pay for WoW you are expecting to have higher quality services, less detriments (such as ads), or bonus perks unavailable to those who pay for free. I agree with you *very* strongly on the issue with "scamming" players. It would be of critical importance (and something I would need to give *much* more thought) to make the players feel less risk. Finally speaking to why you would never pay for it. That's fine. I think that makes good sense. It's great that you are donating your time and resources to further a cause you like. Once again, thanks everyone for the posts. This has given me (and I hope others) a lot to think about. I've modified the original post to make this more of an academic issue rather than one I'll act on (for now). Best, TrojanKnight

I think its a great idea. Best of luck to you Trojan Knight. You must be a great GM

@MetroKnight You're fine. Hijack away. I would be more flustered if you didn't have so much good stuff to say. I think it's very reasonable to move this to "Off-Topic", as it's not "LFG" anymore. Everyone, thanks for the interesting ideas for alternate ways to make money as a DM. Good food for thought. Best, TrojanKnight

Honestly this page just grinds my gears. Your trying to charge people money on a free site to host a game when your not even a mentor and no one in the community knows you.

While I personally wouldn't pay for his services, I am kind of intrigued as to what would happen if people got the ball rolling. Eventually, either the pay for models would get pushed out, or the market value would get saturated if more and more people jump on the band wagon and undercut each other. TrojanKnight might be charging what seems like a lot. But if his quality matches his price, it might be worth it for some.

Oh, also, what would Players(and other GMs) think of Not for Profit GMs? Meaning, people like Trojan would take the cash earned, and turn around and spend it back into the hobby covering his expenses and getting more material.

For what it's worth... We the developers are not utterly against paid GMing. We think there's a place for it, and we've even considered (briefly) attempting to formalize it. GMing IS a lot of work. Some people would rather put down a few bucks to have a good GM than do it themselves or hunt endlessly for a friend to fill the role. Here's what's important, though... 1) This skirts the Code of Conduct . It's not a competing interest, but it falls in the neighborhood of fundraising. It's the sort of thing that I doubt we're going to be heavily moderating unless it gets out of hand. 2) If you dislike this idea, that's totally understandable. But you do not need to state that opinion . Honestly, you're just giving the concept you don't like more visibility, and in several places here it was basically a personal attack on the original poster. It is very, very important to us that there's... well, very, very few instances of a WRONG way to game with each other. Something that might work for you might sound AWFUL to me, but that's my OPINION. 3) Probably coming in the next update to the Code of Conduct will be something about predicting moderation. "Mom and Dad aren't gonna be haaaaappy" has become a rather annoying element of several threads recently, and it is pointless. If you'd like a moderator to look at a thread, please drop a line to one of us and we'll look into things. Otherwise, don't take it upon yourself to police threads or divine how they might be policed down the line. Thanks!

I would have no problem paying for a game if : 1) the game master knew what he/she was doing - cuts down on arguing 2) the price was split by all players - increases commitment 3) the game wasn't just pulled out of the air - the GM actually did some prep The reason I say that is that I am sick of people flaking just because they are on the internet and can easily get a new nic. It gets old, whether it is a player or GM that is doing the flaking. If everyone was actually committed enough to pay $5 a week or whatever, that would go a long way in cutting out the flakes IMO. Also, having a game where there is an actual plot takes time, and I think a lot of GMs tend to slack rather than prep and the game suffers, so a few dollars a week to give the GM incentive to prep stuff seems fair. I have never charged for a game, nor have I ever been payed to GM although at GenCon, they did give me free room split with 2 other GMs and some swag. I have been to many cons where I paid to play and have had great experiences. How is a weekly game different than a convention? I can see where kids that have little money would be upset that someone is charging them and expecting them to be on time and present every week, but for adults who are used to being responsible and paying for their entertainment, this just doesn't seem that far fetched. Is it the price that gets people upset? Or is it the concept in general? To me, 6 players paying $5 each per week is not bad, it's half the price of a movie and lasts twice as long, is that really that much money? For a 4 hour session, that is $1.25 per hour, to me that is cheap entertainment. I don't know, I guess I just don't understand all the outrage.

@Daniel B. To me it was the concept at first. Now normally speaking you purchase the materials (which can be already expensive) then you find a group and start playing with friends / family. You've spent the money on say the Player Hand Book (which there are now quite a few) and you find a group. Everyone bieng at a table you could share the PHB's and start playing at a reletively low cost. In this situation paying for a DM but then still bieng able to share things or not have to fork over several pay checks to get caught up is still relitevly cheap, if we're talking about the group splitting the payment. When we get in to the Roll20 / online aspect it gets... wierd. You can't ("shouldn't") share PDF's. So that would mean that every person of your group would need to start spending a lot of money to get in. I remember buying the 4th Edition PHB1 and 2 for $50 together. Now add on the 3rd PHB, Ebberon or Forgotten Realms... and even the PDF's can add up in price. So now you've had to spend all of that money and then spend a bit more (Presumably $5-$15) per week to play a decent game. That changes the dynamic a bit don't you think? It's one thing to have a lower barrier to entry and then have to pay a bit per week to play but its another to have a huge barrier of entry and then still have to pay. Now this is all relitive because this really isn't a thing that is happening, but in a world where it was a thing, I could see it as a problem. Now I am going to take the "gauging interest" line to heart, and as a DM who is financially challenged this would be awesome. I just don't see it going that far. The spirit of Table Top RPG's the way I see it is that it is a group of friends, who get together to tell stories, have fun and laugh. Personally, I would not want to start spending money, get 1-2 sessions in and realize "holy crap, I hate every single person here." That... just doesn't seem like something that would be advantagous to a hobby that is already a limited target demographic (and saddly it is even though it is still getting more and more popular). Now as far as making money off of this, I am not really mad that someone would try to, hell I do make money off of doing this sort of thing, but not for DMing. I do YouTube and Twitch streaming. I do Let's Plays on my YT channel and my Streams get imported to Twitch. When we do our campaigns, we stream them live to twitch with them going up on YT afterwards. I am a full Networked Partner with the Maker Studios RPM Network, so everything on my channel gets monetized. We also have donations set up on our streams to accept donations from fans who like our content (I do that with everything though not just D&D Campaign streams). I've had group members give me money for Mentorship and D&D Insider. I've had complete strangers give us money before for assets, for memberships so that we can keep doing this. That bieng said, I make next to crap. The donations thus far have covered some of the subscriptions, and most of the asset purchases have come out of my own pocket. So im not adverse to making money here, just maybe not in the same way. Paying for your entertainment is fine, but things arent that black and white.

I'm not upset, but I'm shaking my head at the belief that DMing is a lot of work. You can certainly put a lot of work into it, if you enjoy it and have the time, but if you don't you don't have to and you can still run outstanding games.

I would never want to be payed for my services as a GM, since I consider myself just a fellow player in the unique role of GM and do it solely because I really enjoy it. However, I do think there is a bias in paying for the roll20 services that leads to GMs paying more for premium content than players. If there isn't already, I do think a type of "roll20 dollars" or possibly specific gift items that players could contribute to the game (such as everyone in the group pitching-in one dollar to purchase a token pack for the GM instead of the GM paying $6 for it) or something similar would be a good contribution. I think that having some way to share the costs of a game between players and the GM would be very helpful for the community and might even lead to more total premium content purchases.

Tree Ant said: However, I do think there is a bias in paying for the roll20 services that leads to GMs paying more for premium content than players. If there isn't already, I do think a type of "roll20 dollars" or possibly specific gift items that players could contribute to the game (such as everyone in the group pitching-in one dollar to purchase a token pack for the GM instead of the GM paying $6 for it) or something similar would be a good contribution. I think that having some way to share the costs of a game between players and the GM would be very helpful for the community and might even lead to more total premium content purchases. I agree with this very much. You would also know that the money goes for Roll20 and DMing vs a plain donation link / bank account where the money really could go towards anything. Edit: Lets not forget you can donate Mentor from someones Profile page, but that is only mentor status.

Sentai said: Now I am going to take the "gauging interest" line to heart, and as a DM who is financially challenged this would be awesome. I just don't see it going that far. The spirit of Table Top RPG's the way I see it is that it is a group of friends, who get together to tell stories, have fun and laugh. Personally, I would not want to start spending money, get 1-2 sessions in and realize "holy crap, I hate every single person here." That... just doesn't seem like something that would be advantagous to a hobby that is already a limited target demographic (and saddly it is even though it is still getting more and more popular). Well, I can certainly see your point if you are saying the other players may not be to your liking, or the GM may not be to your liking. I would then recommend that the payoff come at the end of the month. That kind of gives you a built in guarantee. If the game / GM is lame, or you just can't stand your fellow players, then you can leave within the first few sessions and owe nothing. But if you continue, you pay. This would be a much better guarantee than you would get at a convention. At a convention, if you don't like your DM, tough, you can complain to the organizer, but you won't get your money back in all likelihood; at most the organizer won't have that GM back. I am glad to see Roll20 is actually considering some kind of mechanism for pay to play. I think it is reasonable under certain circumstances . Personally, I would GM for free, since I figure if something like a change of jobs or a family emergency comes up, I wouldn't feel obligated to "carry on"; whereas if you are working a job, and something happens, it's your job to carry on, or maybe that is just my personal work ethic and others see it differently.

I would certainly be more motivated to run a campaign if I were to make some money doing it. I can also see the interest in doing such a thing to help increase the reliability of the players. Nothing pisses me off more than having players flake out.

I think paid-GM'ing sounds like a very interesting concept & I applaud TrojanKnight for looking into it. He's obviously handling himself very well in here (as he needs to, since he's wearing his "salesman" hat :-) ), calmly handling some passionate critical responses in a dispassionate reasoned way. Nice work, sir. I would offer this is a *classic* example of creative legal commerce between consenting adults. Really good to see both positive and negative posts on there - let's air this thing out! At the same time, I don't see where it makes any sense to *foist* one's own values on someone else when it comes to legal commerce between consenting adults -- "foisting/insisting" not to be confused with candidly contributing a negative opinion. Adding to @NolanTJ-Dev Team's comments, I think TrojanKnight comes off as *adding* to the options/freedom of RPG players, while stringent critics tend to come off as *restricting* player freedom/options. IMO, that's going to have a tendency to drive people towards the dispassionately reasonable TrojanKnight and his *completely voluntary* proposal. Just a thought. Lastly, these kinds of questions aren't likely to come up in areas/hobbies that aren't viable & no one cares about. Hypothetically, if by chance we did see an explosion of paid-GM'ing...that's not a sign of the hobby dying...that's a sign of the hobby *thriving*. Cheers

I don't see any problem with the "morals" of this, as long as you run the kind of game the guys would enjoy I don't see why you wouldn't charge them. I wouldn't charge for games myself, If I don't have as much fun as the players when I play then I stop playing the game. Would I pay to play in this games ? No, because I don't like 3 and 4e. Would I pay to be in a game other than this ? No, because I am broke as shit and can't afford it. Would I pay for a game in an alternate universe where 50-200$ a month means nothing to me ? Yes, yes I would as long as I enjoyed the game and the GM. And to be honest I can see a pay ceiling working out to better some games by filtering players and as long as there is an option to "write review" (not rate, just write a review ) about a certain GM's game and even more as long as he is even offering "trial" runs before I see no problem with it.

I would be interested to know if trojan has looked more deeply into the legal side of this, I mean as of right now this is fairly uncharted territory. For this sort of thing to work you need to work out if you have the legal right to use what ever software and materials you are using for profit, for instance if you were running a D&D 4e game does there licence prohibit you from using the system for profit.

Alex L. said: I would be interested to know if trojan has looked more deeply into the legal side of this, I mean as of right now this is fairly uncharted territory. For this sort of thing to work you need to work out if you have the legal right to use what ever software and materials you are using for profit, for instance if you were running a D&D 4e game does there licence prohibit you from using the system for profit. Well conventions are already doing it. You're not selling the materials your selling creative expression. It's a very similar battle I and many man others face on YouTube with our Lets Plays. If you were to say require every person to purchase the required books then... then MAYBE. But then you get in to what I was saying on my post, having to pay for all the materials then (in this specific world) have to pay for a group too. I still don't see in a real setting why you just wouldn't share materials, but I guess if the members of the group are looking to pay for a DM, they are already friends sharing or each have all the materials they need.

I am going strongly against the grain of my initial reaction by saying this - I don't have a problem with this in theory. What kind of RPer wouldn't pay a chance to sit at the table with the likes of the late Gary Gygax, or their favorite games' development team? Who wouldn't want to get a chance to get paid to do something that they love doing? Unfortunately, when money comes into the equation, things tend to get a bit more complicated than "hey, let's play a game together." CAVEAT EMPTOR and CAVEAT VENDITOR .

Xyld said: I am going strongly against the grain of my initial reaction by saying this - I don't have a problem with this in theory. What kind of RPer wouldn't pay a chance to sit at the table with the likes of the late Gary Gygax, or their favorite games' development team? Who wouldn't want to get a chance to get paid to do something that they love doing? Unfortunately, when money comes into the equation, things tend to get a bit more complicated than "hey, let's play a game together." CAVEAT EMPTOR and CAVEAT VENDITOR . But saddly were not getting Gary Gygax, were not getting Chris Perkins. I think this also goes to when money comes in to play. Unless there is a verification system or a registered DM's list then your paying for something with no gaurentee (not that you buy everything with Gaurentees anymore).

I wouldn't pay to have Chris Perkins GM for me anyway. He's not that great.

HoneyBadger said: I wouldn't pay to have Chris Perkins GM for me anyway. He's not that great. It's just an example. Not to mention those types of DM's would also carry (I would assume) a hefty price tag.

HoneyBadger said: I wouldn't pay to have Chris Perkins GM for me anyway. He's not that great. Agreed. He seems like a nice guy, with some cool ideas, but he values those ideas a little too highly over what the players have to offer. Everything has to go through him, and if he had something else in mind the suggestion has to exceed that in coolness.

I for one entirely encourage the endeavor of professional, paid GMing. You've my full support for such a quest! I fully believe it can be a job of payable income.

I'm not against the idea of people charging/paying for gaming if the so wish per say. But in my mind it goes against the idea of why you GM/DM to start with. Because you enjoy it, and like spending the extra time vs a player, sculpting a world for your friends to travel in. And each DM/GM is different, so I have no place to say if charging is wrong morally. Just against the grain for a lack of a better term. My one worry: I don't want new players with no past experience, or group to play with seeking out roll20 and seeing it as a "pay to play' situation thinking they have to pay 'premiums' to get a good DM. Like my minecraft server I ran, I never charged access to it, 100's of people played for free. It was my hobby I did it out of the fun I had running it, not for profit or feeling I needed compensation for it. But now and again people would join and ask: "I like this place a lot, what is the fee for member access?" "No fee, its free I pay for it all because I enjoy doing it" "Oh wow, it must not be good if its free, all the top servers charge to get on, and have 'professional staff' and you get what you pay for..so see ya". Sure its narrow minded, and a bit silly to think that..but they was trained from their first experience of a MP server that 'paid = better'. And I'm worried allowing free vs paid per session might cause that. Some people thinking 'well if they are charging, they must be worth it, and better than the free ones". So while I'm not against the idea of paid ones (despite my own judgments on it)...but perhaps IF it added, a whole new subforum for pay per session? so its not mixed and mingled in with people looking to GM/DM for the fun of it? Also I have a fear it will bring out all the "I could make a buck off this" types that are doing it purely for some cash. Having no real 'connection' to their playerbase, knowing more sessions per week = more money coming in. churning out rehashed content to multiple groups. For every DM that would be worth paying for, there will be one giving people the wrong impression of what Tabletop is..There would HAVE to be a rating system for paid GM's. otherwise we'd lose some of the playerbase tabletop is already struggling to attract into as a hobby.