[GURPS] - Sheet #1 - Thread 1

Ogarrr said: I think that an option to either manually enter or do the points automatically would be better. the 5e character sheet, for example, has the option to input AC manually or calculate it. Perhaps have it like that, that way people could use it to build their characters, then change it to manual afterwards for the input of points gained through play. Ogarr, not a bad idea at all.

Mike W. said: I never changed the unspent points in any way. Have checked  I can see that is has changed and I am investigating this. It is a community sheet so anyone can change it. The date says it was changed 3/7/2018 which cannot be correct but the version did change. It was changed on 10/23/2018. Looks like this person also implemented some other changes as well Swing and Thrust could be done but you would still have to manually select things like thr+3 or sw-2  and if GMs use the Optional Rule: Modifying Dice + Adds (Basic page 26), then we would have to create that as well and try and do some more calculations to get it right. Most find it much easier to manual input this information from GCA and\or GCS. The other reason to keep it manual is because of some items, like Bows and Crossbows, have a damage which is based on the item's ST not the character ST.  If you have both Low HP and Low FP, then 9 move would be a 3 move. I checked and verified the sheet is working as expected. UPDATE : Indeed someone did make changes to the sheet without consulting anyone on 10/23/2018. I am attempting to get into contact with this person so we can coordinate future changes. This is going to delay promised changes as I now need to re-code my test sheet. The change also wiped out the Unspent points that used t be auto calculated. Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that everyone could change, still I didn't like this way, don't know if I'm a minority, but anyway I like the Idea of let everyone change if want automatic or not, and sorry about the Half dodge confusion, I thought it was lower with only low fp, but checking now it isn't. About the thrust/swing in attacks, I would like it optional because is very useful to characters that change the ST a lot, but anyway, I can add it with @{swing}, just thought it was easy, but if it's more work than I imagine, it's not a big deal.

Igor I keep track of all ideas and run them by as many people as I can. I will see what it will take for each option \ suggestion. Although I have been making some changes, I am still very new to this. My only concerned is if we have the sheet do more and more calculations automatically, it slows the sheet down. For example see the Pathfinder Necros sheet. It is a beautiful sheet with all of its automatic calculations and such BUT can take over 5 minutes to open the sheet at times. For the Swing and Thrust, again I mention those ST based weapons that do not use the character's ST, such as the previously mentioned crossbow and bow. I am not saying no to this but right now the plate is rather full. 

Hi Igor P., the attributes section on the general tab is actually broken. Sometimes it correctly totals Attributes, Traits, and Skills, but I've seen it fail before. The Other box is not used, it is hard-coded to a value of 0. The total section is also broken, it is hard-code to 150 CP that means the Unspent Points wasn't calculating correctly. There's also no starting characters points, which does change from character to character and campaign to campaign. The main concern for my players is there was no place to track actual Unspent CP; CP earned after a session, spending CP for rolls, etc.  I'm in the process of fixing that area now. I will add a row for Starting CP and show the correct total, and the difference between starting and total. Which really is only useful when starting a brand new character. 

Ken F. said: Hi Igor P., the attributes section on the general tab is actually broken. Sometimes it correctly totals Attributes, Traits, and Skills, but I've seen it fail before. The Other box is not used, it is hard-coded to a value of 0. The total section is also broken, it is hard-code to 150 CP that means the Unspent Points wasn't calculating correctly. There's also no starting characters points, which does change from character to character and campaign to campaign. The main concern for my players is there was no place to track actual Unspent CP; CP earned after a session, spending CP for rolls, etc.  I'm in the process of fixing that area now. I will add a row for Starting CP and show the correct total, and the difference between starting and total. Which really is only useful when starting a brand new character.  Ken I was unaware of these point problem calculations as it has been working for me and all of my players/e. Thanks for stating what you are working on. I just sent a Pull request for some cosmetic changes on the Combat page. Lets make sure we coordinate any changes, additions, or fixes being made for future updates. Ideally one should enter the number of points there character is supposed to be and the calculations should do a checksum and show the over or under (under obviously would be the Unspent points).. This is what it did up until recently when someone made some changes and I think that is what broken the point calculations - I could be wrong though. Staring points to me is not very useful to me as that number is only used once, best just to used it like before, as a checksum (Just my opinion). Most people keep track of unspent points on the Quick Inventory box, plus saved points for purchases towards future Advantages or buying off Disadvantages.or pool points. BTW the only reason I am making any changes at all was because no one else was doing it. I am totally new to HTML and CSS and if you are going to start dedicating time to this sheet I will gladly step down. Mike

Like Mike, me and my group never had any problem with the auto calculation on the Point Summary table. I never figured out any use for the "Other" field, which I always left at zero and never felt like it did anything really. Odd, but didn't hurt, felt like something that was going to be implemented but never happened. I will say however that the "Total" field is not hard-coded at all. It merely starts at a pre-determined value but you can add to or subtract from it normally and it'll save, it always did. But if you're adding all that detailed CP tracking directly to the sheet, it saves the trouble of tracking them elsewhere. Big bonus. Adding a checkbox for combat reflexes sounds dubious, IMO. If you're gonna do that for CR, then you'll have a hard time justifying not doing it for a hundred other things on the Advantages list, and Enhanced Time Sense is the first in line, followed by every other advantage that gives a flat bonus/penalty to those scores (or even other scores). And then you have every other variation that people playing Supers games can come up with (like Combat Sense and Enhanced Defense to name 2 published ones). Using the MOD column on the general tab seems to be the better blanket option to go for. Then if you have some special snowflake super powered dodge you make a new entry for it on the combat tab. I'll also kindly ask that you, Ken F., give some warning before deleting fields (or functionality) from the sheet if you feel like doing it (not sure it was you this one time). Some people could be using them and not have a backup and that'd ruin their game day if they have to spend 30+ minutes trying to recover that information mid session. My 2 cents.

I agree with Valter.  My 2 cents: The simpler and more generic the sheet is then the better I think. Since I use GCA and GCS I really do not need much in the way of  automatic calculations. One thing have learned from making a few changes myself, if the Roll20 detects you renaming attributes or deleting attribute without a way of alerting the players and/or converting existing data then they will reject the changes - that is of course if they catch them. By accident this happened tome twice.

Latest Updates Version 1.4.3 – PULL  10/30/2018 - Successful Fixed version 1.4.1 Pull request date – Cosmetic Only.   Fixed version 1.4.2 Pull request date – Cosmetic Only.   Added information pertaining to who made changes in version 1.4.2 – Cosmetic Only. Widened Shots field in the Range Attacks section – Cosmetic Only. Fixed widths (margins) of the Active Defenses, Melee Attacks, and the Ranged Attacks sections – Cosmetic Only. Fixed widths of the Damage Macro for the Melee Attacks and the Ranged Attacks sections – Cosmetic Only. Change the background color of the Skill field and Macro field to a Light Blue for Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks – Cosmetic Only. Added some ‘Hover’ information for the Trait and Skills Tabs – Cosmetic Only. Restored some deleted Revision History – Cosmetic Only.

Please get rid of this nonsense of not automatically calculating points. There's no reason to not have that feature and makes it impossible to troubleshoot point totals in sheet.

Attention Please Due to  Ken F.  changes made during this last pull, 11/06/2018, and the fact Ken will NOT coordinate with me and will NOT even respond to my PMs to him and he will NOT post to this thread - I am no longer going make changes to this sheet nor maintain this thread. It is to frustrating. He had overwritten some of the changes I made the previous week by changing the History page. His changes should have been Version 1.4.4 not 1.4.3 which were the ones i did the previous week. It was fun until now. Mike

Sad to hear that. I appreciated nearly all of Mike's contributions to this sheet, thanks for your time man. Unfortunately, it seems Ken F. doesn't care about the community and will just do his thing regardless. So far I see he managed to spray pink everywhere on the General tab and some blue on the Combat tab for some reason (maybe the pink ran out). Also it seems every character is doomed to have a lower Total than what they started the game with: Again, I have no clue why. But I might have a solution?

Valter The Blue was mine, to help separate the combat die roll from the damage die roll as my observations show that many people click the wrong one many times during play.. I posted that last week as version 1.4.3 but the latest update overwrote the history page and thus no one knows I did that.

Yeah, that had a good reason to be done, those got people all the time, especially because the skill button was further right on the line. I was very annoyed at the moment when writing that post... and well, I'm still unhappy.

Mike Please do not give up on this. Many of the things you have 'fixed' and changed have been so very welcomed. I know you are feeling frustrated but most of us do appreciate all of the effort you have made. I like what you had planned for future revisions and personally I want to see those implemented. Please reconsider. Oh, and that Pink must go!

Thanks Tom I will do a Pull request for next Tuesday the 13th just to fix the version history page and put back in what was deleted - just to be thorough. 

Mike, I really hope you will reconsider and continue your good work. If anything, complete the list you already have.

Mike, when you submit your pull request, in the description mention that Ken F keeps undoing and overwriting your changes, and link this thread. If you can name specific changes that have reduced usability all the better. They will then pay closer attention to changes made to the sheet, and maybe open a dialog with Ken in the github comments. You can also check on pull requests made by other people before they go live, and comment on them to ask Ken to not make changes that will conflict with your changes before they go live. You can always see the pull requests that havent yet gone live here:&nbsp; <a href="https://github.com/Roll20/roll20-character-sheets/pulls" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/Roll20/roll20-character-sheets/pulls</a> . Checking them on the weekend before they go live on Monday/Tuesday will let you see if any changes are coming.

GG Yes I have been checking for updates in GutHub but not reviewing them in detail, just seeing what they are. Luckily what he overwrote was the History of changes made, not any actual sheet changes affecting functionality. I have left messages to him here, in PM, and in GitHub - no response.

My suggestion was more to get the roll20/github staff involved, so they can adjudicate, and force a dialogue if one is needed.

Mike, Hoping you hear from Ken F. and can work out the update coordination.&nbsp; I'm guessing he added the pink backgrounds to show which fields can be manually changed in the General tab, though 'Current HP' wasn't so delineated.&nbsp; I'd prefer the highlighting be removed, or a darker color chosen.&nbsp; The pink is very washed out on my screen.

As a side note for future consideration, I noticed that the third Character Sheet tab is labelled "Skils" instead of "Skills".&nbsp; &nbsp;Hoping this is easy to update...

Ray Yes it is easy to fix - lol no one noticed it before including myself.

Latest Updates Version 1.4.5 – PULL&nbsp; 11/13/2018 - Successful Fixed version 1.4.1 Pull request Date – Cosmetic Only Fixed version 1.4.2 Pull request date – Cosmetic Only Fixed version 1.4.3 Added back in – Cosmetic Only Fixed version 1.4.4 Renumbered from&nbsp; 1.4.3 – Cosmetic Only Renamed ‘Skils’ tab to ‘Skills’ – Cosmetic Only

OK someone completely surprised me and donated a 1 year Roll20 PRO subscription to me. The donation was made anomalous. It was a thank you , he or she said, for the work I have done on the character sheet followed by&nbsp; a small list of additional changes requested. I took this both as a thank you and a bribe - lol. I GREATLY appreciated this donation, it was very welcomed and totally unexpected at the same time. Now I feel some obligation to make further updates and will consider doing so. I have one request myself, will this anomalous donor please contact me directly so that I may clarify a couple of the requests. Having a great day today, Mike

That's great news.&nbsp;

Hahaha, I did not expect to read a post like that at all. Great news. Now take that bribe and keep up the good work, lol.

I sent a recent inquire to Roll20 abut this particular GURPS character sheet. I was amazed to hear this interesting fact. The GURPS sheet data from the past 3 months has it as the 14th most popular used sheet, and its usage has been on the rise since Q1's reporting. GURPS style #2 does well, though not nearly so much at 84th. It is still in the top 100 (out of approximately 600 sheets).

Wow that is so cool Mike. I am referring to both the donation your received and that fact of the use of the character sheet.

I am proposing to make a format change on the Combat page by reordering the fields in the Melee Attacks and Ranged Attacks section. The order would now follow how they appear in the GURPS books. This has been requested by some players and GMs alike. Reason #1. Easier manual input when adding multiple weapon attacks, following the order form the books. Reason #2. Eliminate the problem of people clicking the wrong Macro when making a Damage roll or a Skill check. No functionality has been changed - this is a Cosmetic change only! ORIGINAL FORMAT PROPOSED FORMAT Are there any objections to this proposed change or concerns? -Let me know. Mike Update 11/16/20218 : Such positive feed back here and in PM directly to me. If all goes as planned, this format change will take effect from the PULL request on Tuesday 11/20/218.

That seems very sensible to me. There's a lot of value in matching layout to the standard GURPS layout.

I agree - btw was this part of the bribe? -lol

Oh yes, consistent layout please! Man, it's a pain to input weapon stats because you have to keep jumping back and forth. Is this really the 14th most popular sheet out of 600? Wow. That's amazing. =D

Valter said: Is this really the 14th most popular sheet out of 600? Wow. That's amazing. =D Yes that was a direct quote from a database analyst from Roll20. Shocked me too!

I'm seeing a similar issue as Valter in regards to oddly summed point totals. Total appears to be Attributes + Traits + Skills. The Skills value appears to be the total points spent on Skills, Techniques and Spells.&nbsp; The points spent on spells don't appear to be included in the calculation of Unspent. Unspent seems to be some combination of Starting - Attributes - Traits - Skills (Not Spells) - Other.&nbsp; I've had to manually add Other to compensate for Spells (29 points) and a mystery factor (6 points). My unspent is -6 because I previously assumed that Other was supposed to be the points spent on spells.&nbsp; That was wrong. Lastly, I want to join the chorus in thanking you for the updates!

Lee Unfortunately I am not the one that changed how those points work, that was done by Ken F UserID:&nbsp;945642 I feel uncomfortable changing anything he did without his input,mostly due to the respect for his skills which are far greater then mine, and common courtesy. If, after some time, he does not address these issues then I will take a look and see what I can do. BTW: Thanks for appreciating what I have done so far.

Why don't you create a new GURPS Character Sheet on Roll20 whose changes are restricted and use your last version as baseline? It is awful to think that someone can spoil your work anytime he wants. I'm having problems with the Start / Total / Unspent points, but as i saw there is no intent to correct it in the near future just because someone was playing with it. We can't be some developer hostage. Yes i recognize that there has to be lots of goodwill to help a community for free, but this goodwill is nothing if you break something and doesn't care to fix.&nbsp; With great skill come great responsibilities. If Ken F. or anyone else just don't want to help we can organize ourselves (With Github and merges) and can continue the work for good.

Ok. Think i found the correction for the bug i reported. Lets go. On line 977 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_skill_points " disabled = " disabled " value = " @{skills_points} + @{techniques_points} + @{spells_points} " /&gt; It says that i have a property called "attr_skill_points" that is the sum of my skill, techniques and spells. Ok. But on line 1001 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_point_diff " value = " @{total_points} - (@{att_points} + @{trait_points} + @{skills_points} + @{misc_points}) " disabled = " disabled " /&gt; It is using the property "skills_points"&nbsp; on the sum instead of "skill_points", so it is using only the skill points spent and not the sum of skill, techniques and spells. Just remove the "s" on "Skills" on line 1001 and it will be corrected.

Superb that you're continuing with this, it's a very good character sheet. Could I possibly make some QoL suggestions, especially after the point input was made optional! I think an inputtable DB for shields on the Active Defences would be a superb addition, that way your parry would come out as "11+1" which would make it easier to see where your bonuses are coming from. Also for damageable shields. Other than that, simply a place where you can input your height, weight and some short descriptions like eye colour/ hair colour etc. Again, brilliant character sheet.

Filipe said: Why don't you create a new GURPS Character Sheet on Roll20 whose changes are restricted and use your last version as baseline? The problem with that is that the Devs of Roll20 do not allow multiple community sheets. The second GURPS sheet in existence was made before that rule was put into place. I can live with the changes someone else makes as I have learned how to closely examine the code now. As for the bug you found, since it is a bug then I WILL fix that. Let me investigate further. I will try to place it into next weeks PULL request on 11/27/2018.

Ogarrr said: Superb that you're continuing with this, it's a very good character sheet. Could I possibly make some QoL suggestions, especially after the point input was made optional! I think an inputtable DB for shields on the Active Defences would be a superb addition, that way your parry would come out as "11+1" which would make it easier to see where your bonuses are coming from. Also for damageable shields. Other than that, simply a place where you can input your height, weight and some short descriptions like eye colour/ hair colour etc. Again, brilliant character sheet. Ogarrr - your suggestions are welcome. I already have plans for the ' height, weight and some short descriptions like eye colour/ hair colour etc.' to be placed on a separate TAB with a lot more misc information that be added.&nbsp; DB will be restructured too. I am a novice at this so give me some time and I will see what I can do.&nbsp; ADDED : 11/20//2018 - The addition of DB will be included with the new Hit Location tables. One table for your PC's personal Hit Location, which will include values for DB, and one table for all other generic Hit Locations when attacking others. All fields will be editable. This will coincide with the reformatting of the General page (other than attributes) however this is still a few months out. By the way, just so that you and other know, I am not the original author of this sheet. I have only been working on it since last March and making mostly cosmetic changes and fixes to the code. I have added a few options but until my skills get better I shall take my time.

Ogarrr said: Other than that, simply a place where you can input your height, weight and some short descriptions like eye colour/ hair colour etc. Again, brilliant character sheet. I believe the "Bio &amp; Info" tab is there for that type of stuff. You can even upload a picture there. And all sorts of links and even other images in the text part, just like here in a forum post.

Lots of people dont like using the bio tab, it's pretty clunky to edit in play, and styling is pretty limited. A bio equivalent on the character sheet can be pre-styled and match the character sheet, and can also be a form which makes entering repetitive data (height, weight, race, etc) a lot easier.

Have you considered using a "header" above the tabs for bio info. I have one on my custom sheet modeled after the GCS character sheet.

Personally I think that takes up too much space. You know your race, gender, etc., and other players can't even see that section of the sheet so&nbsp; there's no point IMO giving it such a big part of the visible space.&nbsp; Don't get me wrong - it looks nice. It's just not useful. The stuff in the tabs is usually more important to see, so you want that at the top and dont want to be scrolling down all the time. If it was just one or two rows it would be cool. Otherwise I'd prefer to have it hidden off in a tab.

Latest Updates Version 1.4.6 – PULL&nbsp; 11/20/2018 - Successful Rearranged the order of fields in the Melee Attacks repeating section to match the order presented in the GURPS books – Cosmetic Only Rearranged the order of fields in the Ranged Attacks repeating section to match the order presented in the GURPS books – Cosmetic Only Fixed various typo’s on the Updates page – Cosmetic Only Fixed tooltip format specifically the width and placement – Cosmetic Only Fixed tooltip for Attribute Mod, Shots, and RoF to fit the format – Cosmetic Only Fixed the tooltip for Combat Reflexes, changed +3 fear to +2 Fright – Cosmetic

Filipe said: Ok. Think i found the correction for the bug i reported. Lets go. On line 977 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_skill_points " disabled = " disabled " value = " @{skills_points} + @{techniques_points} + @{spells_points} " /&gt; It says that i have a property called "attr_skill_points" that is the sum of my skill, techniques and spells. Ok. But on line 1001 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_point_diff " value = " @{total_points} - (@{att_points} + @{trait_points} + @{skills_points} + @{misc_points}) " disabled = " disabled " /&gt; It is using the property "skills_points"&nbsp; on the sum instead of "skill_points", so it is using only the skill points spent and not the sum of skill, techniques and spells. Just remove the "s" on "Skills" on line 1001 and it will be corrected. It would appear that line 993 has that same issue as line 1001. &lt;input type="text" name="attr_point_summary" disabled="disabled" value="@{att_points} + @{trait_points} + @{skills_points} + @{misc_points}" /&gt; So confusing when the attribute names are so similar.

Mike W. said: Filipe said: Ok. Think i found the correction for the bug i reported. Lets go. On line 977 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_skill_points " disabled = " disabled " value = " @{skills_points} + @{techniques_points} + @{spells_points} " /&gt; It says that i have a property called "attr_skill_points" that is the sum of my skill, techniques and spells. Ok. But on line 1001 we have this: &lt; input type = " text " name = " attr_point_diff " value = " @{total_points} - (@{att_points} + @{trait_points} + @{skills_points} + @{misc_points}) " disabled = " disabled " /&gt; It is using the property "skills_points"&nbsp; on the sum instead of "skill_points", so it is using only the skill points spent and not the sum of skill, techniques and spells. Just remove the "s" on "Skills" on line 1001 and it will be corrected. It would appear that line 993 has that same issue as line 1001. &lt;input type="text" name="attr_point_summary" disabled="disabled" value="@{att_points} + @{trait_points} + @{skills_points} + @{misc_points}" /&gt; So confusing when the attribute names are so similar. I thought about it too, but that names are used on the scripts, i don't want to risky they. Will you fix it or can i make the pull request? Didn't want to make it myself and spoil your version history, but i really want that bug fixed. I don't know if you have another changes in this version too. I'm think about the next step. Skills in combobox. What do you think? :)

Filipe First: Thank you so much for getting involved. I really appreciate it. I have prepared a PULL request for next Tuesday with your fix included, I just have not published it yet as I am working on some others. By skill in Combo-box if you mean a drop-down with all skills, for which there are over 850 such skills, this would violate Steve Jackson Game licenses for which there is no OGL for GURPS. This had been suggested before some years ago and I think the original authors had even responded to that (I think it was on the Official Steve Jackson GURPS forum). However we can discuss this further in PM, Skype, or Discord if you would like - in fact I would love to hear more of your ideas.&nbsp; Mostly I am focusing on fixing issues, reformatting and making what is already there more useful. Keep the ideas coming! Mike

Regarding skills in combobox, i dont thing that would violate copyright. Without the actual skill descriptions, it's just a list of generic words for the most part.&nbsp; That said, GURPS has way too many skills for a dropdown approach to be practical. I dont think you can get true combobox behaviour in roll20 (where you type part of the skill name and it autocompletes or narrows the filter). If I'm wrong about that, it might be worth considering, but... To do it would mean hardcoding the entire list of skills in the character sheet, which is likely too much bloat for a GURPS sheet. Most gurps games use only a fraction of the skills available across all supplements, and having the full list is a distraction to players filling in their sheets. It creates confusion about which skills are available and which aren't. Not to mention the difficulty of keeping that list accurate. For a game like GURPS, it's better just to use a plain text box.

As far as licensing is concerned, sometimes it better to beg for forgiveness then ask permission like that guy did in Fantasy Grounds. But yes the huge list of skills&nbsp; makes it impractical.