Dynamic Lighting - One Sided Dynamic Lighting

- Can Dynamic Lighting (DL) be used on a per token basis? By that I mean some tokens can see the light source and some cannot. This would reduce the lag since not all draw calls would be to be applied to all tokens. So one token can see through the DL border, and another cannot. 

 - Elevation as already mentioned. A token at the bottom of the cliff can't see up, but the token on top of the cliff can see down. BUT if the token is flying, and at least as high as the top of the cliff, they'd see through the one way DL border like usual. So a DL View Number that represents what a token can see or not see.

1. Cannot see through double sided DL border. This is the default and how it works now. A token cannot see through either side of a DL border.
2. Can see through one side of the DL border, but not the other. The orientation of a particular line segment would determine the Normal and thus direction of sight. <--|   In this ascii example, the line segment has a normal "To the left". Anyone on the right side can see towards the left, but not the other way. This is the Elevation example.
3. Can see through both sides of the dynamic light. Useful for creatures who do not rely on sight, like Tremorsense, or flying creatures when using an Elevation Border Line, which I suppose could be a new type of Dynamic Border type.

For me the fundamental thing here is the ability to see "inside" an object without being able to see "beyond" it - like the tree trunk example. One-sided DL lines would obviously be the easiest way to make this happen - you can see from the "outside" to the inside but not vice-versa. 

This isn't going to fix the elevation problem, however, since a token placed "inside" the boundaries of a vision-blocking obstacle (because they're actually on top of it) won't be able to to see anything outside at all - the opposite of what was intended. Attempting to deal with elevation effectively in what is fundamentally a 2D application is extremely challenging and I'm not sure there's really a good way of doing it. Even if you gave every object on the canvas a height property and calculated all the sight lines in 3D, it is liable to be immensely confusing in practice without a 3D visualisation. A top-down view relies on being able to "see" more than you should really be able to see precisely in order to compensate for not being able to see vertical surfaces - which is why the "see inside" use case comes about in the first place. The only real solution to this is to build a genuinely 3D tool, and quite apart from the practical infeasibility of Roll20 rebuilding their whole platform, it would introduce significant additional complexity for the GM in setting up the maps in the first place.

At this point I think we need to remind ourselves that this is supposed to be a virtual Table Top, not a FPS computer game. The value of Dynamic Lighting (to me, at any rate) is to provide a more or less immersive experience during the exploration part of a game. It allows players to "discover" the map bit by bit, and feel, to some extent, the claustrophobia of a dark dungeon. But once you get into a tactical situation, I feel like it's better to remember the tabletop roots of the game we're playing - in some ways it's just easier to make everything visible at that point, and rely on the players and the GM to communicate about who can see what. If you really want to introduce new tokens by surprise at this stage, there's always the Bump script and the GM layer. I don't think that we should be asking the dynamic lighting system precisely to represent tactical LOS during combat.

With that in mind, I think the elevation problems could better be handled by providing some more sophisticated tools for the GM to reveal/hide things. At the moment, one of the big limitations is that you can't easily introduce new parts to a scene with corresponding dynamic lighting paths. Being able to define sections of the map that group everything - map objects, DL paths, tokens - and which can then be hidden or revealed as a unit would give GMs tools to do progressive reveals manually for  immersion and atmosphere without overly complicating the toolset or its implementation. A separate layering system that is orthogonal to the current one, or a more intelligent grouping tool would both be options here.

But as far as this specific suggestion goes, the "see inside but not beyond" thing still very much has my +1.

I am currently using the 1 way dynamic lighting api script as a super complex and convoluted way to block lighting in an isometric game (certain lines need to not block vision when you're in a different room.)

Aun J. said:

In addition, I would like to see different types of barriers for dynamic lighting, i.e. have some lines obstructing movement but not vision (a plexi glass wall in a laboratory, or prison cell bars), obstruct vision but not movement (curtains crossing the hallway), and the ones that obstruct both vision and movement such as normal walls. All of these in addition to oneway visual barriers.

yes plz

kenton h. said:

This suggestion has headed into a few different directions, so, we’re responding to the original idea posted, "One sided Dynamic Lighting."

We totally see the utility in the idea. The primary problem is going to be performance, so launching this is going to need some additional research. We won't be able to start development until after other blocking updates are made to the Virtual Tabletop.

In the meantime, we'd like to collect specific ways would you use a Dynamic Lighting tool that only blocks vision and light from one direction. We’ve heard:

• An object that a character can see, but blocks light and vision beyond it (see the tree trunk, but block beyond the tree trunk)
• Dealing with characters on different elevations
• Windows, One-way mirrors

Please let us know other ways you would like to use this feature in your games.

Kenton,

I'd also love there to be a version of the Dynamic Lighting boundaries which would restrict movement only. This would be for something like 'standing on a cliff',  or 'the walls are invisible', a boundary like a portcullis, or something else of that sort.

Thank you all for your responses. I have a good understanding of the use cases you've provided.

For this Suggestion, we'll put the limits of the feature set on:

An object that a character can see, but blocks light and vision beyond it (see the tree trunk, but block beyond the tree trunk)

Dealing with characters on different elevations

Better support for Isometric Maps

One-way mirrors

You'll notice I've removed the "Windows" use case (Dynamic Lighting boundaries which would restrict movement only). That would be included with this suggestion called Special Dynamic Lighting Layer Objects.

As mentioned in that other post, we are currently optimizing Animations and updates to Advanced Fog of War. Shortly, we'll be adding a Weather Effects layer to the VTT. After that release, we'll be tackling new features like this one, but we'll be cautious of the weight this might add on performance as we implement

@kenton h. thank you, much appreciatted!

We have been working diligently at resolving the issues from the Get a New Look update. As that effort comes to a conclusion, we will begin work on adding Weather effects, then these features should be scheduled for development shortly after.

More enhancements on the Get A New Look update have been developed and are being tested, but we have more work to complete before we start this new set of features for Dynamic Lighting.

Is it possible to have a type of line that doesn't block vision until you hit a second one? If you draw a box, you can see into it, but not the other side of it. If you are in it you can see out. This would cover simple doors, curtains, arrow slits, and terrain changes. You wouldn't be able to see rooftop to rooftop, moving to the edge is a simple work around.

In my "I don't know how this works" mind, this seems easier than the 1-way mirror, since I don't have to worry about the wall facing the right way. And doesn't rely on an enclosed "zone".

The Get A New Look update is reaching stability, and the next round of enhancements to the VTT system is being planned. Additional lighting tools like this request are not expected to be included in the next update, we hope to begin research and scheduling after that update has been planned.

+1

+1 Perhaps something that could set the height of an area. Like you drag a box over the area and it gives you a dialog asking the height of the area.... then using the height setting of the character sheet for the token in question it can quickly calculate if vision is possible for that token... so for example you have a two tier area... their 2 is 6 feet higher than their 1... the goliath in the party standing at 7"1 can see... but the gnome and dwarf in the party cannot... when the go up to the second tier everyone can see the lower level.

As mentioned in another thread, we are developing a version of the Lighting System built on technology that now has enough support to be viable for just about everyone.

With that integration, directional visibility and lighting will become a possibility.

(edited to correct the link)

Hokey smokes!

+1 We desperately need this. Whether for height differences or just making "windows" that can be seen through but not entered, this would be a great benefit to us.

+1

This feature is still waiting by the new lighting system due out in the beginning of next year. 

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+1, one of the biggest things i feel is missing from dynamic lighting. Glad to see it's in the works.

First, a mechanic for Low Light Vision to double the range of vision for external light sources for that character - so if a person has Low Light Vision and someone else holds a torch, they see twice as well with it (or if they are holding the torch they have double the range while other people without Low Light Vision do not get that benefit).

I haven't played that much with the new dynamic lighting, but the original version had settings to allow this, It was a thing to set the range of their vision, at 60' and have it dim 1' out, and then there was a multiplier that would increase the range of light.

Second, the ability to create directional light (for use with items like flashlights or bullseye lanterns).

There was also a way of doing this with the original version, by adjusting the angle of visibility, default is 360 deg, I had someone create a magical Mag-light, that would send out light 120' but only in a 45 deg angle. 

Updated Dynamic Lighting is now available for testing to all Plus and Pro subscribers. As we finish development on that update, the main obstacle for this feature will be removed.

+1

I am pretty new to Roll20, and I am already thrilled by the Dynamic Lighting feature. But I experienced some limits, when designing complex dungeons:

1. "windows" i.e. block movement but not sight.
2. "wall of fog" i.e. block sight but not movement
3. "cliffs / one way doors" i.e. block sight and movement only in one direction
4. "houses, tents, and hideaways" i.e. block sight only on token layer but not on map layer

Looking forward to test the Updated Dynamic Lighting!

We've been releasing to Updated Dynamic Lighting at a steady clip, along with upgrades to infrastructure. Progress on this particular issue will come after Updated Dynamic Lighting is at feature parity with the Legacy system.

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+1.

in multi height environments it would be awesome to have a dynamic lighting barrier than only blocked vision one way. eg: from uphill you can see over the crest, from downhill you cannot look up and into the reverse slope of same.

Have run into this myself designing dynamic lighting for a Fort. Want people on the towers and walls to be able to see down, but not people in the courtyard to see up.

+1 to this :)

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My group has recently needed to have a way to create lines that bar a token from moving, but not their sight. This is particularly helpful at creating windows, business counters, etc...Otherwise the tokens can move in through those areas into the room. Any thoughts on this?

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+1. Id love to see a roadmap of some kind to get a sense of what changes to UDL are upcoming or being actively planned.

a polygon option that restricts movement but allows all light/sight through with an opacity setting would be amazing. 

at the moment I use the circle hack to prevent PC's movement but allow the light and PC vision, but it's a bit tedious to draw so many circles along things like the toe of a cliff.

Cliff Creation

The closer a token gets to the barrier, the closer the area behind it they can see through it. This would simulate looking over the edge of a cliff or balcony. When far away from the barrier, you can't see the area close beyond it. As you get closer to the barrier, your visible area beyond the barrier gets closer to the barrier. This would have one dependent and three independent variables, and one coefficient. 

Independent variable D: the distance from the viewing token to the barrier.

Independent variable C: the height of the cliff.

Independent variable H: observer height.

Coefficient R: The rate of increase of F as a function of C.

R = C / H

Dependent variable F: the limit of the field of view as a distance from the barrier to where visibility starts on the other side of the barrier.

F = R x D

F = (C x D)/H

For simplicity, just assume all observers eye heights are 5'.

F = (C x D)/5

But, if you wanted to get silly, you could add a Height of Observer (H) value to each token, so each token would have a slightly different view over the cliff.

Finally, the barrier has to have a 1-way effect. So it behaves as described above when approached from one direction, but is just a normal visibility barrier from the other direction.

*Copied from a post I had recently written to this thread per suggestion.  I saw this thread after I posted and see the relevance.  Lots of good suggestions above.  Below is the original message.  Joe*

I really enjoy what Dynamic Lighting (DL) adds to the game.  I don't think that the base functionality needs changing, but the following suggestion could be an enhancement.  Likely there would need to be some rules/special tools for creating the geometry to do this.  But, clearly, you know how to calculate the equations for lines tangent to objects/lines/points for the line of site calculations.

Here is an over-simplified town or fort map with some trees/stump.  In fort battles, it's nice to be able to hide troops behind buildings.  What if you wish to climb onto a building and do some Ranger-sniping?  What if there are enemy troops already on the buildings shooting at you?  These are more challenging to handle.

For instance, the buildings and trunks will block line of sight (LOS).  It is easy and fast to set this up.

And obviously the impact of the DL is below.  But what are those big squares?  Oh, they're buildings.  Is there anything on top of them?  Is that a tree?  Anyway, I think that it would at least be nice to see the artwork.

This would be an improved outcome of an enhanced DL tool.  It may need to be an enclosed polygon tool.  But the front side of the polygon is not obscured.  Only the back side is obscured.  Maybe it needs to be a convex polygon, but it should be straight forward enough to tell where the tangent points are and which lines are "in front" and which are "in back".  The ones in back have things obscured.  In fact, if one is within the polygon (on top of the building), there is no longer a "back line" and everything should be visible...at least until the next level of things that obscure vision.  Of course if you place a token on the roof, they will only be able to see the roof with current DL and nothing else.

This effect was created by using partial enclosures, but it is very positional-specific and may work in some situations.  I get that "being on the roof...or perhaps a tower" would allow one to see further beyond, but that starts to get more complicated.  I'd settle with the above enhancements that likely can use calculations that are already being done.

Joe