Cyberpunk 2020 Rebuild

Some one asked me to add a feature to the Cyberpunk 2020 sheet I remade way back when.  So I rebuilt the sheet (using the same 'attr_' names), removing tables, tabs, and adding grids and a few buttons.  Its all on one sheet now.  The sheet is showcase here.

Before, I would just make any changes I wanted to a sheet secure in the (false) knowledge I didn't break anything and of course what I did was better looking.  Now, I am a little wiser, so I am wondering on how to go about the updating.  Other considerations include the two other Cyberpunk 2020 sheets (2k20 and something else) which I didn't make.  Since Roll20 has a policy concerning multiple sheets for the same game,  I don't want to add to this this list as a separate sheet.  But I also hesitate just slapping the full rebuild down without talking about it first.

Anyone got any thoughts on the subject?

That looks good.  It looks really, really, good.  I'd use it. 

Adding pictures if case people need to see it: 

Old:

New:

I think if you made the original sheet, and you are using the skills you've developed since then (and are using the attr names), I think you have good grounds to go and replace the original.

And looking at the two, I cant imagine anyone objecting, The new sheet looks like a big improvement.

But I also hesitate just slapping the full rebuild down without talking about it first.

As this is a overhaul of the sheet, I'd say it's best to create a test game for the sheet, so that several people using the existing sheet can test it. If you get approval form multiple users it's fine to submit the changes to the repo.

One objection some users might bring up, is the reversal of the color scheme. Could imagine a bunch prefer/are used to the darker sheet, so if you want to go the extra mile, you could implement a toggle to inverse the color-scheme of the sheet. At least the the "AGE System" and "GURPS" are examples of sheets implementing it in some form. But it's really a trivial concern, all things considered. A color-scheme switch can always be created later, or by someone else.

I'm currently writing on Andreas Guide to Improving Existing Sheets that is intended to be an useful read in situations like this. I'll reply again/update reply when I have the first draft on the wiki.

I am glad yawl like the improvement.  

Andreas J. said:

One objection some users might bring up, is the reversal of the color scheme. 

No one seemed to like the color when I changed it to black the first time.  Half of one, six dozen dozen of the other.

And being honest, I didn't make the sheet.  At least, not the original.  I kinda hijacked it, and started making all kinds of changes, completely and utterly disregarding the original author.  The fact I was oblivious how rude this was does not erase my mistake.  The author was cool about it and hence since given me full reign on it, but I still go slowly when touching other people's stuff*.  

*Yeah, I know, it all Roll20's stuff and its open to the public and all that.  I still have a sense of ownership over what I created, right or wrong.  So I tread carefully with stuff other people made.

I vaguely remember the other sheet being created so it could be used for a game of mine after finding out it was ill suited for it.I don't have the contact to that author though.

I do think you should do a few things to it if your going to be taking over both sheets

A: Letting weapons roll without a selected token

B: Having separate death/stun saves or have them correlate to their stats(Something your original sheet did not do if I remember correctly.)

I really liked the original rework you did, and I also really like how clean the new sheet concept looks! Keep up the good work!

Just on aesthetics, your attribute border could do with some padding so that the gradient isn't coming up on the interior elements and your skill inputs could do with a bit of padding so it doesn't feel like its touching the border as well. 

As far as color-schemes, I've been hankering with playing around with styling a scifi/punk sheet if you wanna collab on this. 

qaz said:

I do think you should do a few things to it if your going to be taking over both sheets

A: Letting weapons roll without a selected token

B: Having separate death/stun saves or have them correlate to their stats(Something your original sheet did not do if I remember correctly.)

  I'm not taking over any sheets.  I am just revamping the old one we used together.  

Rolls no longer require a token.

Death and Stun saves are calculated the same way as book describes.  It rolls only once but shows both numbers a player needs to beat.  Basically, if you need a Stun save, you hit the button, and look at the stun section.  If you need a death save, you hit the button and look at the death section.

Tony R. said:

I really liked the original rework you did, and I also really like how clean the new sheet concept looks! Keep up the good work!

Thank you.  I appreciate the start you gave me.  I love Cyberpunk and was thrilled to see it already existed when I joined Roll20

Richard T. said:

Just on aesthetics, your attribute border could do with some padding so that the gradient isn't coming up on the interior elements and your skill inputs could do with a bit of padding so it doesn't feel like its touching the border as well. 

As far as color-schemes, I've been hankering with playing around with styling a scifi/punk sheet if you wanna collab on this. 

What do you mean about gradient?  I don't understand.

And please them me more about the scifi/punk styling.  Color me intrigue.  

I was pointing out the gradient on the border

As far as styling, was thinking you could pull colors from some of the covers. Feel free to contact me on discord if you want some back and forth: Medieve (Richard T)#3166

and I would try to sneak in some glow effects to mimic chromatic aberration

Here's a coolor link with a suggested palette

https://coolors.co/5ec2d1-313036-eb4511-e5e2d5

Hey there I was working on setting up a game with the old sheets and noticed something odd (maybe I'm missing something obvious, but thought I'd ask since I found this thread!) With 3d dice enabled, it seems all skill checks roll twice the dice, then only incorporate one result. Also seems like it doesn't favor picking the lower or higher result, so it shouldn't affect the odds, but I'm curious if this is intentional? If so, why? This quirk seems to carry over to the new test sheet as well
Thanks for your work, new sheet looks sick!

Michael said:

Hey there I was working on setting up a game with the old sheets and noticed something odd (maybe I'm missing something obvious, but thought I'd ask since I found this thread!) With 3d dice enabled, it seems all skill checks roll twice the dice, then only incorporate one result. Also seems like it doesn't favor picking the lower or higher result, so it shouldn't affect the odds, but I'm curious if this is intentional? If so, why? This quirk seems to carry over to the new test sheet as well
Thanks for your work, new sheet looks sick!

This is likely how the sheet's rolltemplate works to display the results. There's a problem in roll20 with 3d dice and roll formatting - once you need to handle certain kinds of rolls, you have to use techniques that are just incompatible with 3d dice. If that is the case here, there's no way to fix it - it's a very common issue that can only fixed by a major overhaul from roll20, which is clearly very, very low on their priorities considering how many years this issue has been around.

Thanks GiGs for the answer! Good to know it's likely just a cosmetic quirk, not a problem or some setting I have switched on lol

GiGs said:

This is likely how the sheet's rolltemplate works to display the results. There's a problem in roll20 with 3d dice and roll formatting - once you need to handle certain kinds of rolls, you have to use techniques that are just incompatible with 3d dice. If that is the case here, there's no way to fix it - it's a very common issue that can only fixed by a major overhaul from roll20, which is clearly very, very low on their priorities considering how many years this issue has been around.

Here's my fiddle of testing the palette with a cool style that I think hits the mark. 

https://jsfiddle.net/medieve/s4pnmtoq/

Was talking to Coal Powered Puppet about design and eyestrain. We were wondering what the broader community thinks. 

We have a clean option of just doing color palette choices. 

And then we have the full effect 80's computer screen version

Now... the second one simply looks cool but its definitely going to have more eyestrain with the smears, your eyes are likely going to be compensating on perceived blurriness. We're still strategizing on if a compromise is possible. I'm not sure if simply less severe blur will work because the strain is just your eyes trying to focus (I actually suspect that more subtle effects is more straining because they are less obvious as an effect). Maybe a more likely solution is only putting the smearing on particular elements like header information. It'll read as a distance artifact and likely be more acceptable to your eyes as an exterior problem. 

Another method of getting around the eyestrain is simply making the character sheet very compact. If this was a full screen, it'd be a problem but if its a small sheet that you are referencing less continuously that should help as well. If you are tunnel staring at it, you'll get a headache, but even these screenshots on the white of the forum should give you the ability to rest your eyes if you were really just reading information and looking elsewhere. 

I dont like the blurry version, its definitely more strain on my eyes. 

In the first one, the big title might be too high contrast - the other titles are fine, just that first one seems a bit much to me.

Here is me screwing around with the color palette thing: 

I think it's looking like a good start. Obviously my fiddle is dealing with a simpler layout so The color space reads better. I'll see about creating some options to create some visual hierarchy in a denser sheet. 

Likely creating a darker shade for less important inputs and using the amber color for more menu-y buttons.

How about Glitch text effect with CSS only

:)

That looks pretty easy to implement, though I can't imagine people would find that less irritating xd. Though I did have a thought that maybe the problem is the blurs. Maybe I can do the chromatic aberration with solids.

Here's a version where a majority of blurs were removed outside of the big box outlines, see if this still has mad aversion levels. 

I never said I find it less interesting.  Just different.

Like I said before, I see that the blurring effect is hard on my eyes and brain.  I am a single person, so only have a single point of input.  If most like it, cool, we will put it in.  If most don't, we will reconsider. 

Coal Powered Puppet said:

I never said I find it less interesting.  Just different.

Like I said before, I see that the blurring effect is hard on my eyes and brain.  I am a single person, so only have a single point of input.  If most like it, cool, we will put it in.  If most don't, we will reconsider. 

I agree with CPP about it being hard on the eyes. My old eyes can not handle that blur and it causes me a headache if I look at it to long.
I remember when the FLGS I lived near had put out the original books, Friday Night Firefight and later the Cyberpunk 2013 then 2020 came along along with all the chrome books and other books. That was an awesome time.

Best of both worlds would be to include the option to turn off the blur/glitching effect, but OTOH would be extra work.

Probably smartest to skip the blur, and later create it as an optional thing that can be turned on.

Hi,t

As discussed in private, the best feature for me as GM is adding the capability to have a generic macro button for attacks. And you implemented it in the new sheet and worked ok. That saves a lot of time of doing individual NPCs attack macros, one for each weapon , copying the command from the chat , setting it up in the char sheet. And repeat.

As per the color, I liked the old one.Dark background on white or clearletters is always better for old folks that spend a lot of time in front of a PC.

P.D : As a future endeavour , one may even think in integrating a goon generator in the char sheet. Just adding a button on the side that would apply some rules to fill up roles, stats, skills and weapons from a database, as in http://www.laurelcadre.com/cp_goon/. That could make roll20 the absolute go for CP2020 for ever, since one spends a lot of time copying and pasting character/weapons stats, and it s not always possible to do that while running a game.

Will you include the weapon modifiers expandable in the new version? It saves a lot of time in arithmetic and table checking/memorization.

Weapon Modifiers already in the sheet.  Click that gear button.

.

Andreas J. said:

Best of both worlds would be to include the option to turn off the blur/glitching effect, but OTOH would be extra work.

Probably smartest to skip the blur, and later create it as an optional thing that can be turned on.

I was wondering about this, would it just be something like the hide section code where we could do:

input.sheet-glow_option:checked~input, input.sheet-glow_option:checked~textarea{
  <glowy stuff>
}

and it would hit siblings and children? 

I think so.

And Zermelo, I don't think I can make a draggable button off the sheet to access all the sheets, at least not easily.  I think I will try and put in a text box or something where a gm and just copy and paste the data into a macro they created so the process is a little easier.

Richard T. said:

Andreas J. said:

Best of both worlds would be to include the option to turn off the blur/glitching effect, but OTOH would be extra work.

Probably smartest to skip the blur, and later create it as an optional thing that can be turned on.

I was wondering about this, would it just be something like the hide section code where we could do:

input.sheet-glow_option:checked~input, input.sheet-glow_option:checked~textarea{
  <glowy stuff>
}

and it would hit siblings and children? 

Uh no idea, I just know that both the GURPS and AGE System sheets have settings for changing the layout/color-scheme of the sheet/roll-template, and figured taking a look at how they have done it would be a start. Likly exists other sheets with similar things, I'd gladly hear about other sheets that might be great to look at.

That's at least what I intended to do when I'll get around to do something like visual settings/options for a sheet.

I worked on the Cyberpunk sheet waaaaaay back in 2015.

Hi Coal Powered Puppet , and all

Just wanted to catch up on the discussion, have some questions:

1) How is the status of releasing the new sheet?

2) Coal Powered Puppet "I don't think I can make a draggable button off the sheet ..".I guess you refer helping out in the process of creating token actions for the "Primary, Secondary,.." buttons we discussed.  I do not think thats needed, I just copy from the chat window, create token action and edit the action to add "selected" if is a clone goon , and /w GM to avoid the players knowing about the attack specifics.

3) One thing that may help though is to add the following. In any roll that causes the Modifier window to pop out, add a check box "Hidden roll?". If ticked , the called command starts with "/w GM" . Have it ticked by default. This avoids a old of meta-game in players. Since other players cant have a direct way of knowing how good is an NPC or a PC at anything. They don't see the rolls.

I was working on...something before I was going to submit it.  But I forgot what that was.  I have done some mild styling changes in this campaign (same place as before) so if there isn't any complaints, I will try to get it uploaded before Monday.

The hidden roll thing I will work on later, so this update can get...uh...activated?  Uploaded?  Not enough coffee.

Hey, thats fine. Gonna check it out now. About the hidden roll thing: do you know about any command allowing to do a blind roll? So that a player can´t see the result and only the GM gets to see it. Would be really useful for perception type rolls.

Btw, thanks a lot.

Ok, tested looks good to me, green light from my side, congrats..it will save a ton of job 

Yeah the update was already merged some hour ago, so sheet should update around same time tomorrow.

Apparently, this is not going over as well as hoped.

Jay said:

Main issue I have with the new sheet is the bright white background. The new stuff is neat but the old one (imho) fit the theme of Cyberpunk much better with a black background and digital look. New one is neater but not as easy on the eyes.

Someone could look at the GURPS or AGE System sheet to figure out way to include a setting to the sheet, where you could change the layout to a darker scheme.

I will look into it

Coal Powered Puppet said:

I will look into it

I've long meant to look int this and possibly distill it into a CSS Wizardry thing, but it just haven't found the time. In case you end up making this, I'll try to make a streamlined example of it for the wiki.

Please upload the old sheet as an alternative separate version - this one is broken dude

I've pinged Roll20 and asked them if they can roll back this update this week, and not have to wait until next Tuesday.

Be more specific with "broken".  I put together this one because the last one was "broken".  I need to know what to fix.

Identified the heavy weapons problem.  Will submit a fix.  Will look into other stuff as well.

...side note, where were all these cyberpunk games when I was looking for one?

For those missing weapons, can some one invite me to their game so I can see what the issue is?  I can't see the problem in the code.