GMSteve said:
Edit: All their carefully filled out Weapons entries have dissapeared aswell. And they can't hide the Skills they don't have like you could on the old sheet.
Just a heads up, those sections are 95% sure now temporally hidden(not gone forever) due to to bugs, but reverting the sheet to it's previous looks should restore it completely, so this is only a temporary setback.
Hello, regarding some of the features of the character sheet; I'm sure some aspects of the sheet have yet to be "ironed out", but I've noticed a few players in my game (NOTE: I am not the GM of the game, just another player) have a few gripes with the new sheet. I also hope that you know that anything I say is purely in good faith and is intended as constructive criticism from players of the game.
Something that I've personally noticed with the sheet is that the characteristics themselves, when rolled, do not actually roll. For instance, when rolling for INT or TECH for example, the result is a tag of the player-of-interest's name and nothing else. The area where text, or a roll result, would be being entirely absent.
More "ergonomic complaints" are the dissolution of the folder system. A lot of my mates, and I would be lying if I didn't entirely disagree with them, is the removal of the 'folder' system, where the character bio, Inventory, Combat, Skills, etcetera, all were rolled onto one page. It's more of personal preference, but I feel that it cuts down on having to scroll through tonnes of stuff. I've also taken note of a few complaints of the new colour palette, but I'm sure those are down to the change in the first place: a fair few being rather set-in-their-ways, if you take my meaning.
There may be others, but the complaints I picked up on aside from the one I understood (and was actually valid), they weren't really constructive. I'm not trying to tear you down at all, quite the opposite. I love CP2020 as much as the next guy, which is why I feel the need to bring this up at all. I'm sorry if you take this personally, but all I want to do is help (and I am trying to come from a well-meaning place).
Sincerely, Laika.
Laika,
Tell me all of the complaints. I will try to find a center, and not force you or anyone to do so in my stead. Your input is so much more helpful than annoyed silence.
Please specify which characteristics don't roll, if you have the time. I need to know what I need to fix. I will look into tech and int.
I was, originally told, that moving from tab to tab was an issue. That is the reason to push toward a single sheet. Are there better reasons than "not wat I am used to"?
No one I talked to liked the color palette I used when I made the sheet, so I felt changing it was okay. This resistance is annoying. But what else are you suppose to expect from cyberpunks?
Coal Powered Puppet said:
Laika,
Tell me all of the complaints. I will try to find a center, and not force you or anyone to do so in my stead. Your input is so much more helpful than annoyed silence.
Please specify which characteristics don't roll, if you have the time. I need to know what I need to fix. I will look into tech and int.
I was, originally told, that moving from tab to tab was an issue. That is the reason to push toward a single sheet. Are there better reasons than "not wat I am used to"?
No one I talked to liked the color palette I used when I made the sheet, so I felt changing it was okay. This resistance is annoying. But what else are you suppose to expect from cyberpunks?
Its blinding white dude it hurts my eyes. But a good balance is say cut down on the tabs instead of removing themm all together. Keep skills with combat
Netrunning on its own.
Character info and inventory together. Bang. 3 tabs instead of six
On a related note... I noticed that when the new background image was added, the sheet's folder on github (https://github.com/Roll20/roll20-character-sheets/tree/master/Cyberpunk%202020) included the old image (Cyberpunk2020.PNG) and the new image (Cyberpunk2020.png), note both files are named the same except for the case on the image's extension. ie .png vs .PNG While this is OK on github and linux systems, windows considers both file names equivalent and does not allow two files of the same name to reside in the same folder/locale...
Long story short, once I synced my local fork master with this week's master from roll20, I received an error from github's desktop gui pertaining to the duplicate files because windows no like. To work around the error, I needed to submit a new pull req that deleted the old (dark background) image file. (https://github.com/Roll20/roll20-character-sheets/pull/7592) Since you are trying to roll back this week's changes, can you also remove the old duplicate image from your fork as well before you make another pr to prevent any error/confusion for us windows users? I can close my pr as well if the rollback gets done. Much appreciated.
GMSteve said:
My group is also new to CP 2020. We spent two whole sessions last week getting everyone's character ready, working through the life paths, researching the cybernetics, trawling through the endless (and awesome) selection of weapons etc etc.
Which is where, I think, our earlier frustration came from. We put a lot of work into getting the characters as complete as possible so that when we started our session tonight we would be ready to go immediately, straight from the kick-off. When we logged in and found some discrepancies which created an unexpected barrier to play, there were some grumpy faces for sure, mine included. Sorry about that.
After the riot died down, and order was restored in the combat zone, we had the opportunity to chat and figure out what exactly everyone was so frustrated about. The gripes fell into two categories: 1) Actual (or percieved) mechanical issues with the sheet update, and: 2) subjective personal preferences (personal taste).
No, the frustration is completely understandable, we should have had more people test the update due to how large the update was. At the latest/worst, the sheet is restored to it's previous state next Tuesday, but there is a chance Roll20 might revert the sheet change for us already this week. Depending on how things go, we might re-submit the update with fixes, but no promises when that will happen. Maybe we just submit a smaller version with only the robust changes in it, and leave other updates for later. In either case, that next update won't be submitted before at least two regular users of the sheet have tested it out and found no faults.
I submit sheet updates to Roll20 on behalf of others on a regular basis(as in, they do the coding, I wrangle the changes to Roll20's codebase in the specific fashion they want them), and usually make a last check and look at the code changes/view the sheet inside a game, but this time I'm guilty of completely skipping that part.
In the future, I'll take greater responsibility with update I submit on behalf of others, and at the very least test them myself, or with larger updates, ask that at least one other person beside the update's author have tested it.
1) Actual (or percieved) mechanical issues:
2) Subjective personal preferences (personal taste):
Thanks for the extremely detailed response, this will be very helpful!
GMSteve said:
Edit: All their carefully filled out Weapons entries have dissapeared aswell. And they can't hide the Skills they don't have like you could on the old sheet.
Could you elaborate on this? CPP or me couldn't find anything that should have changed adversely on the sheet's weapon section, so more details would help us identify the bug.
Mechanical side:
I have identified and fixed (in my working copy) the attribute rolls.
Deleted the Extra Endurance
Will re-install the hide/show individual skills bit. Which is weird because I made that for me, and didn't know people liked it.
Attractiveness and anything else red is due to some mistake on the translation part. That's the easiest thing for me to fix.
Subjective side:
I work on the color. No one liked the blue and black I had before but I was too stubborn to change it. It is so strange that people are upset by this now. But, I will make it darker.
I will think on changing up the sheet layout. My thoughts were to make it close to the pen and paper sheet, and so no one had to flip between tabs in the middle of combat.
At one time, Targeted attacks were the number one complaint, which is why I removed it. (dramatic sigh) I'll get the option back in there.
Did some color changes, taking @Richard T. advice on colors. This is what it looks like.
So its darker without being black. Not sure if I like it or not.
On the plus side, I learned how to use a color palette in code now.
I asked my players for feed back on the current sheet. Hope you dont mind me listing them.
Good: I really like having everything on the same page, especially as I was often jumping between the combat and skills pages given my character class.
Bad: There are some bits where the words don't fit into the skill box ("Vectored Thrust Vehicle" being a particularly egregious case) and words like "chip" only fits in full screen mode (that could just be me). The manually added skills (especially languages) don't fit into the boxes. Is it possible to change the font size?
Tiny nit-picks: Might be helpful if we could hide skills that we don't use much to avoid clutter. I know we can hide the whole skill branch but I think it could be useful to do what the last sheet did, and hide skills we don't have. (As far as I recall no one has rolled for Physics yet) Also all the Cyber Deck stuff at the bottom for those of us who don't have Decks?; The [Number of shots] writing obscures the first weapon's auto fire number. I may think of some more when I have a proper look.
Like having skills and combat on the same tab, but liked how the skills were set out before better (with hidden and revealed options).
Something about the font is hurting my eyes, making it very difficult to read the sheet for me (maybe its been a long day of staring at screens!?) unless I zoom in...
rolling a straight attribute check (i.e Luck) doesn't work
But thanks for the hard work. The colour version look great.
Not sure if anyone called these out, but under Inventory, Eurobucks can no longer be edited.
Personal Grooming is using Cool, not Attr.
I always get a "No attribute found" for Aero tech skill. Not sure why that is, it looks right in the code.
Pretty sure others have called out the red/wacky font in Attractiveness skills (using style 200 vs 120 in the stylesheet, naughty, naughty)
We are playing again next tuesday, so if we spot more bugs I'll let you know.
Fixing stuff and changing the colors. Adding hide/show skills. Current progress: https://app.roll20.net/join/8558032/zULExA
You also stripped out basic functionality such as weapon range increments. Effectively can you just make this a separate sheet for god sakes. This seems like a really ill informed choice of actions considering it has over all been very poorly handled
ie: the display that says hey DC:30 for extreme range and its equivlant is say 900 meters
IE: https://i.gyazo.com/3aa00cb91e22ee70cd4ea10f3424cb94.png
Fourth edit: it works but its missing the DC so thats a problem
Also god knows why its doing the blue link thing
This sheet might eventually take over the old one, but this needs at least another month in the oven before publication. Frankly looking over it, I don't see anything outside of visual changes that's better other than having it automatically add your Melee Damage Modifier to melee attacks. Every other feature I've seen has either been a downgrade, outright stripped, or changed only visually.
Like I said, put this back in the oven for at least another month of good work on it before it can reasonable take over the other sheet.
Things that in my opinion are required to let it take over. Color scheme choice (light/dark, perhaps a red/blue/black one as theorized earlier), including the weird red text that appears to indicate nothing in the majority of use cases. Rolling attributes as both saves and checks. Hiding skills. If not the re-introduction of the folder system, at least hiding of specific sections, much like what is done currently with the skills (doubly so for the Run.Net and Cyberdeck sections). Armor Notes and Armor EV. That should at least bring it in line with the old sheet.
Updates that would bring it above and beyond the old sheet. Power Armor and vehicle sheets in line with Maximum Metal. Integration for limb based SDP, for cyberarms and full borgs and such. Fletchette/scatter pack integration (on a hit make a random number of damage rolls). Weapon Scatter table integration (1d10 direction 1d10 meters), for grenades/shotguns. Area Attack Patterns (Shotguns, Grenades, Flamers, etc...). Weapon Recoil and BodMin calculation in accordance with Blackhammer's (pg 48). Character Stability calculation in accordance with Wildside (pg 51). Night's Edge PSY stat and Psychic Powers. Special Abilites automatically adding to specified skills, including custom special abilities. Automatic adding of Hand-to-Hand fighting attacks.
While this latter list are things that I believe would be good for a sheet to have, aren't required, but even some would prove that this sheet should be the successor to the old one. Currently I have to jury rig all these parts in by using Armor Notes, IRL paper, and throwing inline rolls where they really shouldn't be. And on this new sheet, I've found no way to even jury rig these in beyond just straight paper and R20 handouts.
The old sheet should be coming back shortly, if it hasn't already done so.
If you look at the campaign I linked (https://app.roll20.net/join/8558032/zULExA), you will see the most recent version of what I made. The color scheme is now dark, you can hide skills. I will look into adding what you have mentioned. That part looks fun.
ᐰndreas J. said:
The sheet should revert back to it's old form sometime later today, or tomorrow.
I am afraid that for the campaign I am currently playing in, this change hasn't reverted. Is there anything we need to do to make it happen? :(
Roll20 delayed their updates last week, so things should update this week's Tuesday/Wednesday.
Look at the sticky thread in this subforum for more info: https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9430817/new-character-sheet-changes-will-go-live-tuesday-november-10
The folks at Roll20 had some issue crop up and could not push the changes. That "later today or tomorrow" time should today (9th of November) or tomorrow. The delay was not known to us.
Is that version tested by other users of the sheet, and ready to be sent to Roll20?
If you messaged me about the update being ready to submit, I must have missed it. My apologies.
Coal Powered Puppet said:
No, it is not ready. You have missed no messages from me. No worries.
Ah, that's good. When you say it's not ready yet, do you mean you're still working on it, or it's done but need user testing?
Coal Powered Puppet said:
The former. As pointed out by Jay (above) and others the revamped sheet did not add anything, really. It just changed the look. So I will make sure there are actual improvements before putting it up for testing.
Is there anyway to access the character sheet available in the Test Base game? It's pretty awesome. I apologize if the answer to this is obvious. I have read this entire thread, but I'm still a bit mystified.
