All New Tokens Behind GM Layer

Greetings. As the topic says, any new token I add to the tabletop is "under" the GM layer. I have been playing here since 2015, so know my way around. I've never seen this behavior before. Clicking the tokens to move them "To Front" does nothing, and clicking the GM info overlay and choosing "To Back" does nothing. This bug exists on all my games. The below picture shows 3 tokens. One is always on top of the GM layer (expected), one is shown completely under the GM layer, the NPC Orc (bug), and the third token is another character token who is partially obscured by the GM layer, to emphasize the issue. The only difference in the tokens is that the Orc is a brand new token for the sake of that screenshot, and the other token also obscured by the GM layer, is a bit newer than the Tiefling token (which is an original token from game's start). Am I missing some new setting that was implemented and I have not accounted for it? I am using no plugins or 3rd party tools and using Chrome. Thoughts? A bug? Thanks.

The 'to front' and 'to back' commands in the menu are for changing the z-order within a single layer - it won't do anything to tokens on two different layers. Sooo... it seems like those tokens are going to the 'map' layer instead of the 'objects' layer... is this correct? Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the reply, Oosh. I do know what the To Front and To Back commands do. I was pointing out that I have tried to use that to remedy any part of this situation, to no avail. Are the tokens going to the 'map' layer instead of the 'objects' layer? No--not from what I can tell. Unless that is something happening on every game that cannot be changed? The tokens are on the Objects and Tokens layer. The map is on the Map layer. The GM info overlay is on the GM layer. I even bought the essentials kit to more or less test this. It is the same way on that as my Storm King's Thunder game I've been running since 2017.

There appears to be some other weirdness going on with the baked in grid, kind of a blurring. Is that unexpected behavior as well? Have you tested to see if this experience is identical in a browser other than Chrome?

Thanks for checking in, Keith. The grid issue you see there appears to just be some dithering/oddity in the image compression on upload. It doesn't have blurry grid lines in actuality. I've tested this on multiple browsers; it can be replicated in Chrome, Edge, and Firefox. It exists in Storm King's Thunder and the Essentials Kits modules, and  a from-scratch game I made to test this. It's driving me nuts. I've submitted a bug in the proper place already, just wondering if I am missing something.

I can confirm that the GM layer is shown over the tokenlayer. It’s something i have noticed since ?dontknow? But i do remember that since some time i have to dial down the opacity of the GM layer as it is constantly the way. I attributed this to the mayhem of UDL. In the figure you can see that the G is in front of the token.  

Corroboration! It's both validating and disappointing.  Thanks for chiming in Martijn--at least I know I'm not crazy now. I had hoped it was some silly thing I set, though.  :-/  I also cannot confirm precisely when this began happening. I am a bit surprised more people are not experiencing this if it's not "just me." 

Ya know, Keith. Your question made me have another look at the issue. Oddly enough, the GM Info Overlay is above  the baked-in grid , as well. This is the "out of the box" Storm King's Thunder module from the Marketplace. Figure A shows the grid on full opacity with the GM Info Overlay on half. Figure B shows the grid as the same, but the GM layer on full. As you can see, the baked-in grid is completely obscured.  Figure C is our "control" screenshot, showing that the token that is obscured by the GM Info Overlay layer is, indeed, on the token layer. So, is there some setting where the GM layer is always on top?

As far as I know, that's the way it works. I never really thought about it, because it's always been kind of intuitive, and I usually keep the opacity lower than half. But you'd need it on top, or keys would be obscured by tokens. If you don't want keys to obscure tokens, you turn down the opacity. Do you have the opacity higher than you are used to?

I certainly don't want to question your wisdom, Keith, but I must respectfully disagree that this behavior has "always" worked that way. If that were the case, why would some tokens be above the GM layer and some under it? That doesn't make sense to me, so maybe I am missing something. If this behavior is expected, how do I get ALL the tokens to behave like that ONE token I have showing on the screenshot that is, in fact, above the GM layer (as expected).  "...the way it works" for me, before this started happening, was, the tokens and objects on the Tokens and Objects layer were never  obscured or under the GM Info Overlay layer. That is completely new behavior (to me) since this "bug" began manifesting.

Hard to diagnose without hands on the game. If you want to shoot me an invite I'd be happy to take a look, but I probably wouldn't be much better than you at figuring out what's going on. And we'll probably have to disagree on the GM Layer Z Order. As I think back, I don't think I have ever had a token obscure a map key, for instance. Usually I have to turn down the opacity if I can't see things clearly.

In the published content some tokens start on the GM layer, and so could overlay the other items which are also on the GM layer. Since I've been using roll20 beginning in March 2020, the GM layer has always been above the token layer.

In my recollection, GM Layer has always been Above the TOken layer, BUT, there has not always been GM Layer Opacity Settings. It used to be constantly set on one (midling) opacity. For many years on here, it was a constant half-see-through GM layer. I'm not sure but asking Dietrich, could your issue be only-noticed when you have the GM Layer on near full-blast (non-transparent)?  And if you turn down the GM opacity (make it more see-through), then you wouldn't be bothered by the Tokens going underneath as they'd still be plenty visible? I'm not positive currently, from memory, about how this behavior has changed, I agree there has been changes, and I think the changes originate to the time of GM Layer Opacity Slider being added, or MAYBE if it's a more recent change then it could relate to the Dim Light Opacity slider (a new feature of UDL that was added very recently, like within the last couple weeks).

Hi Folks. Thanks, everyone, for replying.  I think, though, I must not be communicating properly, so I apologize. Hopefully, I can try to clarify a bit.  :-) In the pictures you see above, there are three tokens shown. All three tokens are on the Token Layer. As you can plainly see, one of the tokens (the tiefling) is completely unaffected by this bug. If the GM Layer is always over the Token Layer--please answer this question: How is it that I have a token (the tiefling) on that picture, clearly shown above  the GM Layer, while simultaneously am showing evidence of the other two tokens, also on the token layer, shown below  the GM Layer? If the GM Layer is always  and was  always above the token layer, how is that screenshot even possible? I have tokens from "the before time" that are above the GM layer, no problem. Any new  tokens I create (since this began) are under  the GM layer. Does any of that help clarify the mystery?

I can't tell without actually putting hands on. Do you have any repro steps that can make this happen? I can't duplicate.All tokens are obscured by an object on the GM layer. Is there anything unusual about their assignment, lighting setting or something I could try?

I follow what you're saying & the demonstration of it. Not sure why/how, but it SEEMS to be related to recent issues with: Z-Order on copy-paste Z-Order on Duplicate Page  GM Layer Opacity Grid showing / not showing in UDL. I do not know how Z-order stacking could be extending even across layers. That will be a Bug if it is. It does seem like, something chronological, such as Old Tokens that had a Z-order before the Duplicate Page update are still Under the GM Layer, but Newer tokens or new copy-pastes are somehow showing Above the GM Layer? Or Vice Versa? It's just a guess from me. Might or might not be related to these other issues. Seems related. Seems to have to do with Stacking.

Gold's mention of the grid problems with UDL sounds like a likely suspect to me. Are you using UDL/nightvision? Try turning it off and see if this problem continues.

Spotted another Bug Report that looks possibly related: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9831817/character-token-opacity" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9831817/character-token-opacity</a> &nbsp; This user has noted their issue as Token-Layer Tokens having unwanted transparency.&nbsp; Slightly different issue from Invisible Grid, Z-order issues on Copy-Paste, Z-order issues on Duplicate Page, and the current thread's report of Tokens layering inconsistently versus GM Layer.&nbsp; SEEMS related, might not be related. Issues with opacity, stacking, see-through, covering up, layering.

Gold, that was an amazing find, thank you!! Allow me to detail... When a token is created, dragged onto the tabletop, it, while on the token layer, is actually behind &nbsp;the GM layer by default. (I don't know if this is a feature, but this was not always the case in my Marketplace Storm King's Thunder.) If you choose, whether on the token, or the character sheet that the token is controlled by, that the character (or token) can be controlled by the DM, the token then moves to (a new?) token layer that is actually above &nbsp;the GM layer.&nbsp; I can replicate this at will. Figure A - token that is only controlled by the token/character owner: Figure B - I have added myself (DM) to the controlled by on the character sheet and clicked Save Changes. I then "updated" the graphical layer by moving the token. This immediately pops the token above the GM layer (still on the token layer). While this is a pain in the butt to do for every token, I will gladly do so to not have this issue. That said, I am still of the mind that this is a bug. There should be no ambiguous token layer above or below the GM layer depending on who controls the token. All things considered, I am very happy to have solved this mystery, to an extent. Thank you, so much, Gold. I really appreciate you bringing me to that other thread. That was the info that helped me solve this. (Or at least allow others to reliably replicate the problem.) Cheers!

More people realizing this is happening: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9833335/translucent-tokens" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/9833335/translucent-tokens</a>

I wonder what factors are at play here. I have followed those steps, but couldn't reproduce until I gave it sight, turned on UDL, and used Cmd/Ctrl-L. No other combo of steps could cause the token to pop to the top of the Z order. Are you doing either of those, or is it just appearing naturally that way?

Here is an example of the normal behavior of the GM layer, demonstrating that it is historically intended to be translucent, on top of the tokens. This is a product shot from the Marketplace entry for Storm King's Thunder: I've never noticed if Ctrl-L gives the token Z-Order priority like is being experienced by you or my specific test above.

Hi Keith.&nbsp; Thanks for replying. I hear and see your evidence that it has always worked this way, and I appreciate your desire to continue to showcase that fact as some sort of solution to my issue. I feel this angle, however, is leaving little room for the perspective I am attempting to demonstrate. Regardless of how it has always worked, or always worked for you, to me, it has also always&nbsp;worked the way I am stating (and have shown) it does. I have always given my player's tokens sight. Doesn't every DM use that feature? My player's tokens have sight, so yes, that is happening. I always use dynamic lighting, so yes, my maps feature UDL turned on. I don't know about CTRL + L. I am not using that as part of my replication steps. I realize you are saying you cannot replicate it without CTRL + L, but I assure you that I can. RE: "factors at play here" -- There's no complex workflow going on here to create this. Giving a token sight and turning on dynamic lighting are, to me, two things I would think most DMs are using, so I do not identify with mysterious factors at play causing this. I get the logic of having the GM layer not be obscured by tokens, and it's certainly easier to manage tokens not being obscured with GM opacity layer functionality. That said, with some tokens historically not being obscured and some that seemingly are, the ability, or bug, that some tokens can be above or below the GM layer is a factual thing causing an issue for me. I'm not sure if there's even a bug to file here as I don't want them to remove the feature of being able to have select tokens above the GM layer.

I have not tested your steps, so it might be a bug. But the GM has full control over any token, so I don't know why you are expressly adding yourself to the Can Be Edited &amp; Controlled By field. I think most GMs don't do that.

Hi Dietrich, Just to be clear, it was not my intent to stifle or dismiss your issue. Like I said, I can repeat it with specific settings. I just wanted to set the parameters of what we should expect, so we can isolate the things that are going wrong. You are obviously experiencing unwanted behavior, and I'm trying to narrow this down to something repeatable and consistent so a useful bug report can be made. Relating how my experience is different is not an attempt to deny this is what is happening to you, but enumerating conditions so that we can arrive at a root cause. Although you mentioned sight in previous posts, this is the first time you have mentioned DL specifically (I believe Gold inquired). What settings are you using on the page and tokens? Screen shots would help a great deal. UDL is still being beaten into usability, and there are valid display issues, particularly where some effects overlap. This one seems to be newer (like the rainbow triangles some other users have screenshotted). Can you give the page and token settings, so others can try to reproduce?&nbsp;

Hi Rabulias. I think adding myself as a controlling actor to a character or token was/is legacy behavior from when I first began playing and likely thought I needed to do that for some additional control. It does seem to be the catalyst to being able to see a token above or below the GM layer. While I realize (at this point, I suppose) that such control is given to the DM by default, I am curious as to the ability to select the DM if it's not something that is ever needed. Hi Keith. I appreciate the clarity. I actually believe &nbsp;(yet have no hard evidence) I first began to notice this issue once I converted the SKT module to the UDL via the game page prompt that said something to the effect "Would you like to convert this module to the new UDL?" So, first, I would say that I ran the module through that conversion process when that was rolled out (a few?) months ago. I checked all the boxes, so converted all possible things. Here are the settings on all my maps (with some exceptions noted): Dynamic Lighting: On Explorer Mode: Off (I turn this on for select maps/circumstances) Daylight Mode: On (this differs dynamically depending on time of day in game) Update when Token Drop: Off GM Darkness Opacity: 35% A quick glance at other maps in the module indicate these are the "default" UDL settings post-conversion process. I also noticed a (possibly related?) peculiar lighting behavior in another game. Hopefully this doesn't derail this one too much, but in another game, the Marketplace Essentials Kit - Dragon of Icespire peak module, I have two character with sight, I am not listed as controller on either of the tokens/characters. The symptom (or feature?) is that when two tokens' sight intersects, it causes the grid to disappear.&nbsp; Figure A - two tokens away from one another. Both have the same lightning settings. Figure B - two tokens closer, note the red circled area that is their sight intersection; the grid has begun to fade. Figure C - two tokens with sight radius intersecting to show no grid shows in this area. Figure D, E - token light settings; same for both tokens. It seems to me there's some unexpected behavior still happening with UDL; beaten into usability, indeed.&nbsp; ;-) Sure enough, if I turn off the dynamic lighting feature on my map, the tokens are always&nbsp;under the GM layer, regardless of adding the DM to the controlled by field. I suppose, since dynamic lighting was one of the early features that drew me to Roll20, I've never been a DM/GM of a game that did not use it.&nbsp;

see if this works&nbsp; the transparency is less than GM layer or map layer&nbsp;

Hi, did you ever figure out what was causing this? I just started noticing it in my own game in the last week! I've been running this game for a year now. I can't imagine I've done as much in this game over the last year and only JUST noticed that the GM view works this way. Honestly, I've tried to be careful in pinning down common issues and trying ideas others have had. My belief is this is a bug affecting GMs who are viewing a UDL-enabled map that has Explorer mode turned ON. It's Explorer Mode that is glitching here. Here's what I can assert about the bug I'm seeing: Objects on any layer other than the Map Layer appear semi-transparent, with the Map Layer visible through them. It does only affect the view of a GM looking at their game, not players viewing that game. It does not seem to affect the Map Layer, but affects all other layers (Object, GM, and Dynamic Lighting). It does not seem to be tied to the GM Overlay Opacity Slider in any way. It does not seem to be tied to whether a token on an affected layer is at the "Front" or "Back". Tokens on the same layer occlude one another as expected based on whether they are "Front" or "Back". Visibility of Map Layer beneath two tokens interacts with one token "behind" the other by showing only "Front" token, but still with semi-transparency showing map beneath. No visibility at all on the token "behind" the other, despite the "front" one being transparent to the map beneath. Affect only happens when UDL is present (which is the case on all of my maps) and when Explorer Mode is turned ON. Can use UDL with or without Daylight Mode, but as soon as you turn Explorer Mode ON, you see the weird transparency. Turning Explorer Mode OFF renders what I would call my normal, expected behavior as has been my experience as a weekly GM user for the last year running two campaigns. This affects image assets regardless of the asset's Dynamic Lighting settings. I have tested assets with Sight (e.g. player tokens), assets that emit Light (e.g. a token for a torch), and simple art that never has any lighting effects enabled (sight or emitting light) at all (e.g. an NPC portrait drug out of the library to the map). My current synthesis of the above is that this is a bug, because I've never noticed it before this last week. It affects maps that have UDL and Explorer Mode turned ON. And it seems that it's Explorer Mode, specifically, which is the culprit. It seems to be showing the map "beneath" the tokens on the other layers "through" those tokens as a way of showing the "parts of the map" that the GM has already explored. That's great and all, but as a GM, I of course always know what the entire map looks like at all times. I don't want to see it "through" the tokens I set on top of it. Or at the very least, I want a way to turn that "x-ray vision" OFF so that I can see what the opaque tokens on the Objects Layer look like against (and occluding) the Map layer behind them. Additional Details in case they help: Images on the Object Layer, GM Layer, and Dynamic Lighting Layer appear ~50% transparent. Items moved to the Map Layer from any of these other layers become 0% transparent. Items moved from the Map Layer to any of these other layers become ~50% transparent. Affects both newly-imported (i.e. dragged-and-dropped directly from computer to map) and already-imported images (i.e. dragged-and-dropped from Roll20 library to map). Affects items recently uploaded to my Roll20 library as well as items that have been in my library for a year and with which I've never noticed this transparency before. The GM Overlay Opacity Slider can dial a token with ~50% transparency all the way down to 100% transparent. However, moving the slider all the way to the opposite end (which would normally make items completely opaque), can only ever make the item ~50% transparent. This effect only seems to affect things when viewed by the GM of a game. I'm our group's Forever GM, so I have no other GM account I can test this on to rule out it being an account-specific problem. This strange transparency effect goes away when viewing the map as a player, rendering all player-visible assets at their expected transparency values (i.e. usually opaque). I have tested this both by swapping my own view to the "as a player" view, and by viewing the map on my wife's computer with her logged in as her player account. Tests included careful search for "hidden" or "barely visible" copies of tokens or maps sitting on unexpected layers (e.g. a copy of the map on the GM layer).

For any given player with explorer mode enabled the tokens that they can see that are in bright light or with night vision are solid and the tokens they can see in dim light are dimmed.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's actually a rather neat effect.&nbsp; It seems like it's just transparent to the grayscale version of the map layer.&nbsp; It makes tokens seem to subtly fade into the explored but no longer visible greyscale map layer at the edges of the light without interacting with other tokens or adjusting the colors or what have you. Presumably this is intentional?&nbsp; For the DM though, it seems like unless you declare a token with vision to be yours, it sorta just decides that all the tokens are in partially dim light - so they're all a bit ghostlike, which is just rather annoying. It's a subtle effect, so it's hard to notice it until you're putting complicated images on complicated map images and wondering why everything seems more washed out than you feel like it should during your game.

This is the solution, and needs to be stickied or something.&nbsp; Took me over an hour to find this particular comment, which has the very simple solution to a very frustrating, non-intuitive problem.&nbsp; THANK YOU Dietrich!!! Dietrich said: Gold, that was an amazing find, thank you!! Allow me to detail... When a token is created, dragged onto the tabletop, it, while on the token layer, is actually behind &nbsp;the GM layer by default. (I don't know if this is a feature, but this was not always the case in my Marketplace Storm King's Thunder.) If you choose, whether on the token, or the character sheet that the token is controlled by, that the character (or token) can be controlled by the DM, the token then moves to (a new?) token layer that is actually above &nbsp;the GM layer.&nbsp; I can replicate this at will. Figure A - token that is only controlled by the token/character owner: Figure B - I have added myself (DM) to the controlled by on the character sheet and clicked Save Changes. I then "updated" the graphical layer by moving the token. This immediately pops the token above the GM layer (still on the token layer). While this is a pain in the butt to do for every token, I will gladly do so to not have this issue. That said, I am still of the mind that this is a bug. There should be no ambiguous token layer above or below the GM layer depending on who controls the token. All things considered, I am very happy to have solved this mystery, to an extent. Thank you, so much, Gold. I really appreciate you bringing me to that other thread. That was the info that helped me solve this. (Or at least allow others to reliably replicate the problem.) Cheers!

Glad this helped you! I haven't been back to this thread much, as this was the solution for me, too. I keep my character tokens like this so I can see them at all times and not lose them on the plethora of things I may have going on in a map (animations, flippable map tokens, DM tokens for narrative story visuals, etc.).

This happened to me to, but haven't yet tried to replicate it consistently. It's with the Wayside Inn map in the DoIP extension. Using the trick Dietrich shared worked. It's a pain in the butt though and is definitely a bug.

Quick addition - This may have already been mentioned but I can't find it ... This is only a problem in GM mode. Even if your token is translucent as above, a player would see it as solid. Regardless of the aforementioned 'controlled by GM' workaround. I tested this by logging into the game with a test account.